[gentoo-portage-dev] Proposal: pre-emerge advisories

[gentoo-portage-dev] Proposal: pre-emerge advisories

[Craig Lawson]

This past weekend, I upgraded about 80 packages and a kernel and later
discovered that my CD-ROM drive went missing and my lovingly crafted
gnome menus were trashed by Gnome 2.10 and no longer editable. Oh joy,
another portage upgrade surprise. Some rummaging around in the Gentoo
forums sent me in the right direction and the CD-ROM was handily fixed.
But the menus were more complicated and I reverted Gnome.

Not the first time this has happened. Friends, I won't bore you with
tales of my past singeing, as I sense your hand itching towards your
Flame On! button. Instead, I have a proposal for discussion.

What I'd like to see *before* I upgrade is a list of advisories about
what trouble I'm in for. By the time most people upgrade a package,
someone's been there before and felt the pain. The answers, or at least
the warnings, are in the Forums. Yet searching the forums before
upgrading each package is not practical. Similarly, the build logs are
99% stuff I don't care to read and 1% that I really do. How to find it?
Better yet, I'd like to see it *before* I build.

Currently that stuff comes from each ebuild's post-install procedure,
however I don't think that's the best place for it: it's not easy to
change or amend (gotta be the package maintainer), it's risky to change
(too easy to introduce a syntax error), and it isn't specific to
individual situations.

To be more concrete, I'm thinking of something like a database with
three entries per record: current package+version, target package
+version, and some advisory text. For example, a few useful entries
would be:
  current:  any
  target:   =gnome-base/gnome-menus-2.10.0
  advisory: Menu editing disabled until follow-up release.
            Work-around is to install Python 4 + smeg. See
            forum topic http://forums.gentoo.org/blah...
and:
  current:  <sys-fs/udev-60
  target:   >=sys-fs/udev-60
  advisory: Rules file changed syntax. Preserve old rules file
            and be prepared to rewrite.
and:
  current:  <kernel/vanilla-sources-2.6.11.11
  target:   =kernel/vanilla-sources-2.6.11.11
  advisory: ide-cd no longer loaded by default. Add to
            /etc/modules.autoload/kernel2.6

and when emerge figures out what it's going to build, the "--advise"
option (let's say) tells it to consult the database and issues a report.
Simple as that.

The database could be hosted on a Gentoo server, though it might be
better delivering it along with the "emerge sync" data and have the
build machine do all the work. Data could be stored in a single file, or
distributed throughout /usr/portage as ebuilds are.

Regardless of implementation, the main goals are:
1. Adding or modifying advisories is relatively easy. Doesn't require
programming skills.
2. Adding an advisory in no way risks an ebuild file. An ebuild is
executable code and no one has time to chase down syntax errors.
Advisories are separate.
3. You don't need to be the package maintainer to do it (though at this
point I'm not sure who would -- maybe a collaboration of forum
moderators and package maintainers?).

Comments?

Best Regards,
Craig.


-- 
gentoo-portage-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-portage-dev] Proposal: pre-emerge advisories

[Anthony Gorecki]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 497 bytes --]

On Friday, July 08, 2005 12:40 am, Craig Lawson wrote:
> What I'd like to see *before* I upgrade is a list of advisories about
> what trouble I'm in for.

I've found that many of these notices are posted in the Changelogs of the 
ebuilds, as part of the "this updates X and does Y" descriptions of the 
various patches and upgrades. Granted, it's not as detailed or readable, but 
I've found that it typically gets the information across.


-- 
Anthony Gorecki
Ectro-Linux Foundation

[-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 828 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-portage-dev] Proposal: pre-emerge advisories

[Robert Larson]

> Regardless of implementation, the main goals are:
> 1. Adding or modifying advisories is relatively easy. Doesn't require
> programming skills.
> 2. Adding an advisory in no way risks an ebuild file. An ebuild is
> executable code and no one has time to chase down syntax errors.
> Advisories are separate.
> 3. You don't need to be the package maintainer to do it (though at this
> point I'm not sure who would -- maybe a collaboration of forum
> moderators and package maintainers?).

Though it's been many moons, and major versions since my last set of major 
issues with Gentoo upgrades, I would have to agree.  I have a set of servers 
that I am constantly upgrading to minimize the risk of a bunch of breaks in 
order to only receive a few.  

For instance, I have overlooked the currently implemented messages in the past 
due to unattended upgrades.  Some of the worse breaks I've had have, on 
occasion, completely crippled a system.  I have started building binary 
packages as well in an attempt to revert if stuff fails, but sometimes even 
that doesn't help.

Something to this order would be very beneficial.  I have currently 
established a system where I periodically check my scrollback buffer until I 
find some emerge notes at the end of a package installation.  From here I 
copy and paste the notes into files that I so elloquently name 
"emerge.<pkgname>.log".  This is the easiest way I know to do it.  I have 
looked at the ebuilds before for package information, but this is only 
helpful if I know that I've missed something, as I don't have time to go over 
every package that gets installed or upgraded.  Usually my process of 
upgrades consists of simply determining if I need the package or not.

I have been trying to find something to this resolve, cause frankly, my system 
sucks and I know it's probably not the best.  For me it's the quickest, and I 
was not able to think of anything else.  This is why I believe you're on the 
right track.

I hope this input helps.

Thank you,

Robert Larson
-- 
gentoo-portage-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-portage-dev] Proposal: pre-emerge advisories

[Jason Stubbs]

On Friday 08 July 2005 16:40, Craig Lawson wrote:
> What I'd like to see *before* I upgrade is a list of advisories about
> what trouble I'm in for. By the time most people upgrade a package,
> someone's been there before and felt the pain. The answers, or at least
> the warnings, are in the Forums. Yet searching the forums before
> upgrading each package is not practical. Similarly, the build logs are
> 99% stuff I don't care to read and 1% that I really do. How to find it?
> Better yet, I'd like to see it *before* I build.

How about the ChangeLog? You're on the wrong list for this. The thread should 
be on gentoo-dev@gentoo.org.

Regards,
Jason Stubbs
-- 
gentoo-portage-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-portage-dev] Proposal: pre-emerge advisories

[Drake Wyrm]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1247 bytes --]

Jason Stubbs <jstubbs@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Friday 08 July 2005 16:40, Craig Lawson wrote:
> > What I'd like to see *before* I upgrade is a list of advisories about
> > what trouble I'm in for.
> 
> How about the ChangeLog?

That would be a great answer. I look for trips and traps by doing an
`emerge --pretend --verbose --changelog` every time I sync.
Unfortunately, changes are often made with no entry in the log. When
some change has significant effects, it is rare that even a passing
mention is made regarding the precautions and prerequisites. I'm not
suggesting yelling-at-the-user style "*** DANGER WILL ROBINSON ***"
messages, but the terse kind suggested in Mr. Lawson's first message
would be dandy.

> You're on the wrong list for this. The thread should be on
> gentoo-dev@gentoo.org.

What he was requesting, additional capability for Portage, probably
belonged here. On the other hand, a discussion on how to convince devs
to make use of the existing capabilities would probably be welcome on
gentoo-dev or, perhaps, gentoo-qa.

-- 
Batou: Hey, Major... You ever hear of "human rights"?
Kusanagi: I understand the concept, but I've never seen it in action.
  -- "Ghost in the Shell", Shirow Masamune

[-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 197 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-portage-dev] Proposal: pre-emerge advisories

[felix]

On Sat, Jul 09, 2005 at 04:05:07PM -0700, Drake Wyrm wrote:
> Jason Stubbs <jstubbs@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > On Friday 08 July 2005 16:40, Craig Lawson wrote:
> > > What I'd like to see *before* I upgrade is a list of advisories about
> > > what trouble I'm in for.
> > 
> > How about the ChangeLog?
> 
> That would be a great answer. I look for trips and traps by doing an
> `emerge --pretend --verbose --changelog` every time I sync.
> Unfortunately, changes are often made with no entry in the log. When
> some change has significant effects, it is rare that even a passing
> mention is made regarding the precautions and prerequisites. I'm not
> suggesting yelling-at-the-user style "*** DANGER WILL ROBINSON ***"
> messages, but the terse kind suggested in Mr. Lawson's first message
> would be dandy.

In addition, far too many of the Changelog entries refer to bugs by
number, with not a single word spared for any further explanation.
Even the shortest bug summary would be a great help.


-- 
            ... _._. ._ ._. . _._. ._. ___ .__ ._. . .__. ._ .. ._.
     Felix Finch: scarecrow repairman & rocket surgeon / felix@crowfix.com
  GPG = E987 4493 C860 246C 3B1E  6477 7838 76E9 182E 8151 ITAR license #4933
I've found a solution to Fermat's Last Theorem but I see I've run out of room o
-- 
gentoo-portage-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-portage-dev] Proposal: pre-emerge advisories

[Jason Stubbs]

On Sunday 10 July 2005 08:05, Drake Wyrm wrote:
> Jason Stubbs <jstubbs@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > You're on the wrong list for this. The thread should be on
> > gentoo-dev@gentoo.org.
>
> What he was requesting, additional capability for Portage, probably
> belonged here. On the other hand, a discussion on how to convince devs
> to make use of the existing capabilities would probably be welcome on
> gentoo-dev or, perhaps, gentoo-qa.

Exactly. Doesn't matter what the nice feature is, if it's not used...

Regards,
Jason Stubbs
-- 
gentoo-portage-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-portage-dev] Proposal: pre-emerge advisories

[Craig Lawson]

Thanks for the feedback. I'll post over on gentoo-dev and see how it
goes.

Some suggested change logs were the place to look. I reviewed a few
after the fact, and did not find the types of usage issues I ran into.
It looks like the Gentoo change logs are focused on ebuild issues rather
than functional issues inherent in the software. Makes sense to me. I
expect to find similar in the software change logs, although those are
sometimes more difficult to locate. I maintain that the best source of
breaking news is the Gentoo User Forum.

>From this exchange, I gather that something similar to what I'm
describing already exists yet is underutilized? What would that be?

Best Regards,
Craig.


On Sun, 2005-07-10 at 09:21 +0900, Jason Stubbs wrote:
> On Sunday 10 July 2005 08:05, Drake Wyrm wrote:
> > Jason Stubbs <jstubbs@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > > You're on the wrong list for this. The thread should be on
> > > gentoo-dev@gentoo.org.
> >
> > What he was requesting, additional capability for Portage, probably
> > belonged here. On the other hand, a discussion on how to convince devs
> > to make use of the existing capabilities would probably be welcome on
> > gentoo-dev or, perhaps, gentoo-qa.
> 
> Exactly. Doesn't matter what the nice feature is, if it's not used...
> 
> Regards,
> Jason Stubbs

-- 
gentoo-portage-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-portage-dev] cvs head

[Brian D. Harring]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 306 bytes --]

Curious, how many people are using CVS head?
bin/ebuild*.sh *will* be broken in the near future- upon 
commit of updates, it *will* be incompatible with pym/ebuild.py,
and it will be broke for a sizable chunk of time.

So... this is both a warning, and a question; who is using CVS head?
~harring


[-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 189 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-portage-dev] cvs head

[Jason Stubbs]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 125 bytes --]

On Wednesday 13 July 2005 15:57, Brian D. Harring wrote:
> Curious, how many people are using CVS head?

Thread hijacker! ;)

[-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 189 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-portage-dev] cvs head

[Alec Warner]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I was running daily updates, but I've been slacking off lately, haven't
upgraded in weeks...and apparently now it will stay that way ;)

Jason Stubbs wrote:
> On Wednesday 13 July 2005 15:57, Brian D. Harring wrote:
> 
>>Curious, how many people are using CVS head?
> 
> 
> Thread hijacker! ;)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
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=znlm
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
-- 
gentoo-portage-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-portage-dev] Proposal: pre-emerge advisories

[Jason Stubbs]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 418 bytes --]

On Wednesday 13 July 2005 15:35, Craig Lawson wrote:
> From this exchange, I gather that something similar to what I'm
> describing already exists yet is underutilized? What would that be?

Nothing that I know of other than the ChangeLog. If developers aren't open to 
the idea of adding the information you seek to the ChangeLog, they aren't 
likely to be open to adding it anywhere.

Regards,
Jason Stubbs

[-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 189 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-portage-dev] Proposal: pre-emerge advisories

[John Nilsson]

On ons, 2005-07-13 at 19:49 +0900, Jason Stubbs wrote:
> If developers aren't open to the idea of adding the information you seek to the ChangeLog, they aren't 
> likely to be open to adding it anywhere.

However, tools can be more or less encouraging.

Regarding the bug# the bug summary can be automaticly pulled in from
bugzilla. Either, after the fact, when reading the ChangeLog or upon
submitting it.

I'm not familiar with the QA tools currently used by dev. Would it be
possible to have theese tools ask the apropritate questions and put them
into the ChangeLog?

On a related issue, it would be great with a portage-bugzilla tool.
emerge --info and other stuff could be handled automaticly. When an
ebuild breaks the tool would be invoked to show filed bugs and their
links and/or submit a new one.

As it is now portage is great tool for distribution, customization,
compilation, installation and dependency tracking, it could be a better
tool with regards to QA and development.

-John

-- 
gentoo-portage-dev@gentoo.org mailing list