From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from lists.gentoo.org ([140.105.134.102] helo=robin.gentoo.org) by nuthatch.gentoo.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ECitT-0007cE-3u for garchives@archives.gentoo.org; Tue, 06 Sep 2005 19:14:07 +0000 Received: from robin.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by robin.gentoo.org (8.13.4/8.13.4) with SMTP id j86JA2Gt001514; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 19:10:02 GMT Received: from hermes.orakel.ods.org (dsl67-66.fastxdsl.nl [62.251.66.67]) by robin.gentoo.org (8.13.4/8.13.4) with ESMTP id j86JA1hK014743 for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 19:10:01 GMT Received: from aphrodite.orakel.ods.org ([172.17.2.15]) by hermes.orakel.ods.org with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.50) id 1ECisi-00081l-LH for gentoo-osx@lists.gentoo.org; Tue, 06 Sep 2005 21:13:21 +0200 Message-ID: <431DEA52.40105@gentoo.org> Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 21:13:22 +0200 From: Grobian Organization: Gentoo Foundation User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.0+ (Macintosh/20050813) Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-osx@gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-osx@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gentoo-osx@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-osx] Arch Testing Policy and Procedures References: <87387351-FB42-4D57-8602-8FFC0794DE40@gentoo.org> <431AD2FE.3020706@gentoo.org> <2436D2AF-C880-4636-9E3B-F1761795A929@gentoo.org> <431BE578.8040109@gentoo.org> <96c9d6a805090610352050ecc6@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <96c9d6a805090610352050ecc6@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Content-Scanned: by hermes.orakel.ods.org (Exim Exiscan) using SpamAssassin and ClamAV X-Archives-Salt: 8f880b76-6728-4b1f-ac2a-d6c2fc8a5ade X-Archives-Hash: b05bc462aa61fa0af2f8d5fee02901e5 Nathan wrote: > I'm not a _gentoo_ dev, so I'm not sure if my input here is welcome. > If it's not, feel free to stop reading now :-) I consider it welcome. >> ...I like to >> point at the literature. Think of some big management gurus, like >> Mintzberg (could I mention another name instantly?), Davenport, etc. [snip] > > This may be true in the short run for large corporations in an > unfeeling 'command and control' structure. In the long run, I don't > believe it's better for anyone. I've never been one to be influenced > by Big Management Gurus(TM) or their short-sighted, self-serving > doctrines. (Their visionary, selfless doctrines are okay though) On the contrary, their logic is used on the long run. Though I can agree with you that their methodology might seem a bit overdone here. I'll explain lateron why I brought it up. > Lets run through your logic: > >> Ok, why you say, simple. Noone will accept a lead from his/hers own >> team. > > Proof to the contrary: I've been on several small volunteer teams. > In my experience, a lead selected by general consensus (or elections) > is accepted by all except the most immature people who tend to have > pre-existing personal grudges against the lead. yes, correct*. > >> Simple as that. It works like that in the real world. > > Perhaps with nasty corporate cultures and/or immature people. In my > experience, gentoo devs seem to be rather mature, and I've not felt > oppressed by the gentoo culture yet. Yes, correct*. >> It's hard >> for the lead and hard for the people to be lead. > > The best followers lead the leader with the best suggestions. The > best leader follows the best suggestions of his followers. I work > where I do now because I CHOSE my boss. If some jerk were appointed > in his place (project manager over development), I would be outta > there quicker than a flash. I would be ok promoting someone from > within the team, or hiring an outsider that we all like (non-jerk > variety). Yes, correct*. >> Hard because you used >> to be on the same level, and had chats/whatever on the works as being a >> 'worker', now suddenly that co-worker is going to tell you what to do. >> And maybe you don't like it. > > _Assuming_ the lead has no tyrannical powers to force everyone to > obey their every whim (I looked for Gentoo documentation on team > organization and responsibilities, but couldn't find it.), there > shouldn't be much to worry about. Assuming (again-sorry, where are > those docs?) that a Gentoo lead consists of mostly extra > responsibilities, and not of extra sticks to beat people with, being a > lead tends to be more of a 'character building chore' for the lead > than anything else. Yes, correct*. >> You used to be able to have arguments, now >> you're just supposed to cooperate. > > If Gentoo policies _really_ say that you have to Unquestioningly Obey > The Lead In All Things(TM), then I will swiftly disassociate myself > with all things Gentoo. Do you really think Hasan and/or Lina are > going to turn into earless monsters if they jointly become 'the lead'? I hope, but I think you are correct*. *) provided in the case that all is well and there just need to be some structure. I have the impression that a few major things *have* to be done. This requires 'action' and taking discisions that probably not everyone is going to be happy with. I feel especially the last one is required to bring this project *any* further, because it appears to be stuck on little details, while the big lines aren't even properly drawn. Hence my rather business-like approach, which may be the horror vision for anyone. Of course I do *not* prefer a situation where people can't be free in what they want to do for the project. However, you cannot have everybody doing not so much (or almost nothing) too. I don't think open source and volunatary work means: "do whenever you feel like it". If that would be the base, many things would not have been here around now. You need people that are passionate, and devote some time to a project. I don't want people to relate this sentence above to this team directly, for I'm having a more general talk here. If I read carefully between the lines of some very active (and sometimes counsil) members, I hear this complaint. We see this complaint when people leave the project with furious last words on about 300 devs and noone testing package X. In my opinion open source needs to be managed too, because if it isn't, it doesn't move or innovate. The Gentoo counsil isn't just put there for fun, they are clearly chosen to get Gentoo move again at certain points. They will provide some management, to serve a higher purpose, which is a long term one. -- Fabian Groffen Gentoo for Mac OS X -- gentoo-osx@gentoo.org mailing list