[gentoo-osx] OSX only packages: where to store them?

[gentoo-osx] OSX only packages: where to store them?

[Grobian]

Hi all,

I'm opening a discussion on this subject of where to store packages that
will only work on OSX.  Examples of such packages are Dirk Shoenberger's
qt-mac package [1] (which works by the way), and a package I just made:
sharedmenuscocoa (which is a requirement to build Camino), and the
package I want to have: Camino itself.  They all make no sense on
anything but OSX, and perhaps a tiny little bit on GNUstep environments,
but I doubt that for now.

Question for now is whether we want to add these packages to some
separate tree, either within or outside of Gentoo, or have them in the
main tree.  In the latter case, we can make a separate category
(macos-only?) to put them in, or try to mix them in the tree (where
would qt-mac fit?  and should it require a virtual because it provides
qt?)

Thoughts, opinions?  I'd like to have Mozilla list on their site you can
use Gentoo for Mac OS X too, so that would require us to have the
packages they need in the tree :)


[1] http://bugs.gentoo.org/123240

-- 
Fabian Groffen
Gentoo for Mac OS X Project
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Re: [gentoo-osx] OSX only packages: where to store them?

[Nathan]

On 2/19/06, Grobian <grobian@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm opening a discussion on this subject of where to store packages that
> will only work on OSX.  Examples of such packages are Dirk Shoenberger's
> qt-mac package [1] (which works by the way), and a package I just made:
> sharedmenuscocoa (which is a requirement to build Camino), and the
> package I want to have: Camino itself.  They all make no sense on
> anything but OSX, and perhaps a tiny little bit on GNUstep environments,
> but I doubt that for now.
>
> Question for now is whether we want to add these packages to some
> separate tree, either within or outside of Gentoo, or have them in the
> main tree.  In the latter case, we can make a separate category
> (macos-only?) to put them in, or try to mix them in the tree (where
> would qt-mac fit?  and should it require a virtual because it provides
> qt?)

My personal vote is to put them in the main tree in the appropriate
existing categories.

Assuming that you put them in the main tree--AFAIK, there are ebuilds
throughout the tree that only work on one architecture or another.  I
can't emerge grub on gentoo-ppc, for example.  If gentoo-osx is to act
like any other architecture, then ebuild storage/categorization ought
to follow the same conventions as all the existing architectures. 
None of the existing ebuilds are categorized by "architecture that
this will run on."

If gentoo-osx is really going to move forward then let's get the
ebuilds into the real tree.  Following the same conventions than all
the other architectures with regards to the main portage tree seems
like a wise decision to me.

Of course, if we can't use the main tree anyway because of prefix
issues, that would be different.  But would you be asking this if
there were issues preventing using the main tree?

~ Nathan

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Re: [gentoo-osx] OSX only packages: where to store them?

[Nathan]

On 2/19/06, Grobian <grobian@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm opening a discussion on this subject of where to store packages that
> will only work on OSX.  Examples of such packages are Dirk Shoenberger's
> qt-mac package [1] (which works by the way), and a package I just made:
> sharedmenuscocoa (which is a requirement to build Camino), and the
> package I want to have: Camino itself.  They all make no sense on
> anything but OSX, and perhaps a tiny little bit on GNUstep environments,
> but I doubt that for now.
>
> Question for now is whether we want to add these packages to some
> separate tree, either within or outside of Gentoo, or have them in the
> main tree.  In the latter case, we can make a separate category
> (macos-only?) to put them in, or try to mix them in the tree (where
> would qt-mac fit?  and should it require a virtual because it provides
> qt?)

My personal vote is to put them in the main tree in the appropriate
existing categories.

Assuming that you put them in the main tree--AFAIK, there are ebuilds
throughout the tree that only work on one architecture or another.  I
can't emerge grub on gentoo-ppc, for example.  If gentoo-osx is to act
like any other architecture, then ebuild storage/categorization ought
to follow the same conventions as all the existing architectures. 
None of the existing ebuilds are categorized by "architecture that
this will run on."

If gentoo-osx is really going to move forward then let's get the
ebuilds into the real tree.  Following the same conventions than all
the other architectures with regards to the main portage tree seems
like a wise decision to me.

Of course, if we can't use the main tree anyway because of prefix
issues, that would be different.  But would you be asking this if
there were issues preventing using the main tree?

~ Nathan

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Re: [gentoo-osx] OSX only packages: where to store them?

[Hasan Khalil]

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Hash: SHA1


On Feb 19, 2006, at 05:21, Grobian wrote:

> Question for now is whether we want to add these packages to some
> separate tree, either within or outside of Gentoo, or have them in the
> main tree.  In the latter case, we can make a separate category
> (macos-only?) to put them in, or try to mix them in the tree (where
> would qt-mac fit?  and should it require a virtual because it provides
> qt?)

Personally, I'd love to see a category (or multiple categories?) just  
for software intended exclusively for Mac OS X. Might be a bit more  
difficult to swing that by the rest of the developers, though...

	-Hasan
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Re: [gentoo-osx] OSX only packages: where to store them?

[Stroller]

>> Question for now is whether we want to add these packages to some
>> separate tree, either within or outside of Gentoo, or have them in  
>> the
>> main tree.  In the latter case, we can make a separate category
>> (macos-only?) to put them in, or try to mix them in the tree (where
>> would qt-mac fit?  and should it require a virtual because it  
>> provides
>> qt?)
>
> Personally, I'd love to see a category (or multiple categories?)  
> just for software intended exclusively for Mac OS X. Might be a bit  
> more difficult to swing that by the rest of the developers, though...

This implies there should also be a separate category for packages  
that are suitable for Lunix only. In the ideal world, IMO, x11-libs/ 
qt should build on both platforms, behaving correctly whether it is  
on MacOS or Linux; it is inelegant to require users on different  
platforms to emerge different packages to get the same thing  
(although for development reasons it might be reasonable to have an  
x11-libs/qt-meta package that pulls in either linux-libs/qt or macos- 
libs-qt as required).

Stroller.

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Re: [gentoo-osx] OSX only packages: where to store them?

[Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò]

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On Sunday 19 February 2006 11:21, Grobian wrote:
> Question for now is whether we want to add these packages to some
> separate tree, either within or outside of Gentoo, or have them in the
> main tree.  In the latter case, we can make a separate category
> (macos-only?) to put them in, or try to mix them in the tree (where
> would qt-mac fit?  and should it require a virtual because it provides
> qt?)
First "quick step" would be to put them on gentoo-alt overlay for the first 
rounds, I thought we already discussed that.

Remember the past with other devs ranting because stuff was shoved into the 
tree without enough testing, or with an audience so limited that likely 
nobody would use them.

They should get into the tree at some point, but for the first stages they are 
better to be tested outside it.

About categories... a sys-* category is not the case... qt-mac would probably 
fill into dev-libs as there's not a precise category for it (x11-libs carries 
the x11 versions).
That unless someone wants to find all the gui-libs that can work without x11 
and move all of them in a gui-libs category :)


P.S.: a wxMac ebuild shouldn't be difficult to prepare, either.. when I wrote 
wxlib eclass I had that in mind...
-- 
Diego "Flameeyes" Pettenò - http://dev.gentoo.org/~flameeyes/
Gentoo/ALT lead, Gentoo/FreeBSD, Video, AMD64, Sound, PAM, KDE

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Re: [gentoo-osx] OSX only packages: where to store them?

[Dirk Schönberger]

>>
>> Personally, I'd love to see a category (or multiple categories?)
>> just for software intended exclusively for Mac OS X. Might be a bit
>> more difficult to swing that by the rest of the developers, though...
>
> This implies there should also be a separate category for packages
> that are suitable for Lunix only. In the ideal world, IMO, x11-libs/
> qt should build on both platforms, behaving correctly whether it is
> on MacOS or Linux; it is inelegant to require users on different
> platforms to emerge different packages to get the same thing
> (although for development reasons it might be reasonable to have an
> x11-libs/qt-meta package that pulls in either linux-libs/qt or macos-
> libs-qt as required).
>

The problem is that there exist a package x11-libs/qt, which already
builds fine on MacOS (with installed X libs), and which is generic, and a
package (apple-libs?)/qt, which uses Qt-Mac and native Aqua.
As long as no Aqua exists on Linux, this is Apple only.

Regards
Dirk
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Re: [gentoo-osx] OSX only packages: where to store them?

[Stroller]

On 20 Feb 2006, at 12:30, Dirk Schönberger wrote:
>> ... In the ideal world, IMO, x11-libs/
>> qt should build on both platforms, behaving correctly whether it is
>> on MacOS or Linux; it is inelegant to require users on different
>> platforms to emerge different packages to get the same thing...
>
> The problem is that there exist a package x11-libs/qt, which already
> builds fine on MacOS (with installed X libs), and which is generic,  
> and a
> package (apple-libs?)/qt, which uses Qt-Mac and native Aqua.
> As long as no Aqua exists on Linux, this is Apple only.

I'm not offering sample code but IMO the most elegant way to handle  
this is with an "aqua" USE flag.

Stroller.


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Re: [gentoo-osx] OSX only packages: where to store them?

[Dirk Schönberger]

>> The problem is that there exist a package x11-libs/qt, which already
>> builds fine on MacOS (with installed X libs), and which is generic,
>> and a
>> package (apple-libs?)/qt, which uses Qt-Mac and native Aqua.
>> As long as no Aqua exists on Linux, this is Apple only.
>
> I'm not offering sample code but IMO the most elegant way to handle
> this is with an "aqua" USE flag.
>

I like this idea, but not necessary for the Qt case.
Somehow the qt-x11 and the qt-mac libraries are different downloads with
different codebases.
So in order to build USE="aqua X" you would have to essentially download
and install two large archives.
Possibly qt-mac and qt-x11 are even mutually exclusive, i.e. they are
installed to the same place in the file system.

Regards
Dirk
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Re: [gentoo-osx] OSX only packages: where to store them?

[Grobian]

On 20-02-2006 18:07:34 +0100, Dirk Schönberger wrote:
> I like this idea, but not necessary for the Qt case.
> Somehow the qt-x11 and the qt-mac libraries are different downloads with
> different codebases.
> So in order to build USE="aqua X" you would have to essentially download
> and install two large archives.
> Possibly qt-mac and qt-x11 are even mutually exclusive, i.e. they are
> installed to the same place in the file system.

Yes, they should for sure block each other.  In fact, qt-mac can even
partially use stuff from the x11 version.

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Fabian Groffen
Gentoo for Mac OS X Project
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Re: [gentoo-osx] OSX only packages: where to store them?

[Marcin Gabrowski]

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Hi,

On 2006-02-20, at 19:06, Grobian wrote:

> On 20-02-2006 18:07:34 +0100, Dirk Schönberger wrote:
>> I like this idea, but not necessary for the Qt case.
>> Somehow the qt-x11 and the qt-mac libraries are different  
>> downloads with
>> different codebases.
>> So in order to build USE="aqua X" you would have to essentially  
>> download
>> and install two large archives.
>> Possibly qt-mac and qt-x11 are even mutually exclusive, i.e. they are
>> installed to the same place in the file system.
>
> Yes, they should for sure block each other.  In fact, qt-mac can even
> partially use stuff from the x11 version.

I think, that KEYWORD  ppc-macos, very good descibes category of  
software which we want to use, and prepare and adjust for endusers.
Such USE flags like X or -X, may pretty control process of compile   
source. Eg. I dont like X11-apps on OSX.

gaber

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Re: [gentoo-osx] OSX only packages: where to store them?

[Grobian]

On 20-02-2006 13:02:49 +0100, Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò wrote:
> On Sunday 19 February 2006 11:21, Grobian wrote:
> > Question for now is whether we want to add these packages to some
> > separate tree, either within or outside of Gentoo, or have them in the
> > main tree.  In the latter case, we can make a separate category
> > (macos-only?) to put them in, or try to mix them in the tree (where
> > would qt-mac fit?  and should it require a virtual because it provides
> > qt?)
> First "quick step" would be to put them on gentoo-alt overlay for the first 
> rounds, I thought we already discussed that.

I don't really understand your (over) reaction here.  But alas.

> Remember the past with other devs ranting because stuff was shoved into the 
> tree without enough testing, or with an audience so limited that likely 
> nobody would use them.

I don't think anyone implied that we should do that immediately.  I was
just asking for opinions.  Not sure how I want to do it in the end.

> About categories... a sys-* category is not the case... qt-mac would probably 
> fill into dev-libs as there's not a precise category for it (x11-libs carries 
> the x11 versions).

True.  Defenitely a better place for it.  Problem remains with the
package still on micro level, that it "provides" qt somehow.

> P.S.: a wxMac ebuild shouldn't be difficult to prepare, either.. when I wrote 
> wxlib eclass I had that in mind...

Might be a nice addition to the 'group'.


-- 
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Gentoo for Mac OS X Project
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Re: [gentoo-osx] OSX only packages: where to store them?

[Grobian]

On 21-02-2006 00:49:17 +0100, Marcin Gabrowski wrote:
> I think, that KEYWORD  ppc-macos, very good descibes category of  
> software which we want to use, and prepare and adjust for endusers.
> Such USE flags like X or -X, may pretty control process of compile   
> source. Eg. I dont like X11-apps on OSX.

Yeah, I agree with that.  Question here is, however, do we want
eventually to have mainline tree support for this (deviating more and
more from the "Linux" aspect of the tree) or do we want to keep it more
or less separate.  Separating keeps purists happy, as they can either
RSYNC_EXCLUDE it, or just don't rsync the whole 'OSX-tree'.  (giving
some examples)

I'm absolutely not sure about what the right attitude towards this
should be.  It also addresses the question: what will Gentoo for Mac OS
X become?  A better Fink, or just a tool that can build anything for OSX
from source?  (think of Adium, Camino, Vim, etc. etc. next to all the
console applications)


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Gentoo for Mac OS X Project
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Re: [gentoo-osx] OSX only packages: where to store them?

[Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò]

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On Friday 24 February 2006 10:49, Grobian wrote:
> I don't really understand your (over) reaction here.  But alas.
Er, I just said that we discussed that back with kito iirc, about not adding 
to the tree more ebuilds until the situation is cleared up.

> I don't think anyone implied that we should do that immediately.  I was
> just asking for opinions.  Not sure how I want to do it in the end.
I was just remembering which kind of problems you/we have to cope with ;)

> True.  Defenitely a better place for it.  Problem remains with the
> package still on micro level, that it "provides" qt somehow.
A (versioned) virtual/qt wouldn't be a bad idea; remains the problem that many 
things requires to use _X11_ Qt (especially for Qt3), so deps has to be 
tweaked carefully.

-- 
Diego "Flameeyes" Pettenò - http://dev.gentoo.org/~flameeyes/
Gentoo/ALT lead, Gentoo/FreeBSD, Video, AMD64, Sound, PAM, KDE

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Re: [gentoo-osx] OSX only packages: where to store them?

[Nathan]

On 2/24/06, Grobian <grobian@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Yeah, I agree with that.  Question here is, however, do we want
> eventually to have mainline tree support for this (deviating more and
> more from the "Linux" aspect of the tree) or do we want to keep it more
> or less separate.  Separating keeps purists happy, as they can either
> RSYNC_EXCLUDE it, or just don't rsync the whole 'OSX-tree'.  (giving
> some examples)

That got me thinking about portage rsync'ing in general.  Is it/would
it be possible to rsync a subset of the portage tree based on
keywords? IE, only rsync things to my local gentoo server if they're
keyworded "~x86" or "x86" or "sparc", for example.  That would be a
cool feature if there were a clean way to implement it.  Reduce
syncing time and bandwidth usage on rsync mirrors.

> I'm absolutely not sure about what the right attitude towards this
> should be.  It also addresses the question: what will Gentoo for Mac OS
> X become?  A better Fink, or just a tool that can build anything for OSX
> from source?  (think of Adium, Camino, Vim, etc. etc. next to all the
> console applications)

I've always wanted it to be like portage, just in a secondary package
manager role...including both fink/dp-type functionality PLUS cool
stuff like building anything for OSX from source.  Of course, I also
want my powerbook to project holograms and absorb laser blasts, so
take that for what it's worth.

~ Nathan

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[gentoo-osx] WxWidgets (Aqua libs)

[Dirk Schönberger]

Hi,

I am currently playing around with introducing non-X dependent libraries
into Gentoo OSX.
I would like to see the Cocoa bindings of WxWidgets
(http://www.wxwidgets.org)
http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=127226

The package seems to build (configure && make && make install) fine, but it
is not emerged correctly.
The problem seems to be that emerge tries to build a local image in order to
calculate the files to install / uninstall
The build system of wxWidgets seems to ignore any requests to install to any
install dir != prefix dir.

I assume that there exist some ways, eclasses or other stuff to handle such
problems. This does not neceaary mean that I know theses means ;)

So what would be the "correct" way of making sure that make install uses the
image dir instead of the prefix dir?

Regards
Dirk

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Re: [gentoo-osx] WxWidgets (Aqua libs)

[Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò]

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On Saturday 25 March 2006 09:37, Dirk Schönberger wrote:
> I assume that there exist some ways, eclasses or other stuff to handle such
> problems. This does not neceaary mean that I know theses means ;)
Take a look to wxGTK ebuild and wxlib eclass.
I've wrote the latter thinking about making possible to use it to build 
wxAqua.

-- 
Diego "Flameeyes" Pettenò - http://dev.gentoo.org/~flameeyes/
Gentoo/Alt lead, Gentoo/FreeBSD, Video, AMD64, Sound, PAM, KDE

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Re: [gentoo-osx] WxWidgets (Aqua libs)

[Dirk Schönberger]

> > I assume that there exist some ways, eclasses or other stuff to handle
such
> > problems. This does not neceaary mean that I know theses means ;)
> Take a look to wxGTK ebuild and wxlib eclass.
> I've wrote the latter thinking about making possible to use it to build
> wxAqua.

Sorry, python is not really my language of choice, so I try to keep my
questions use case basesd ;)

- the wxGTK ebuild seems to use gnuconfig (it calls gnuconfig_update). is
this needed / useable for Gentoo OSX?
- I assume the actual download fof the archies is handled in the eclass?
WxWidgets seems to use a single source approach, i.e. all subprojects can be
downloaded as one package.

the configure part part seems to be done by configure_build. I assume that I
could add my own parameter
configure_build cocoa, which would somewhen later come to something like a
"configure --enable-cocoa"?

I don't quite understand the src_install part.
Seems I have to call install_build cocoa and afterwards wxlib_src_install?

I found some missing ${DESTDIR} in the Apple specific install part in
Makefile and Makefile.in.
I would like to use wxWidgets-2.6.3-rc2, i.e. the latest version. Is this
case already handled, or do I have to add some custom patch?

Regards
Dirk

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Re: [gentoo-osx] WxWidgets (Aqua libs)

[Dirk Schönberger]

Using an ebuild based on the WxGTK I was nearly able to emerge wxCocoa
2.6.2.
Some remaining problems:

- I cannot really emerge 2.6.3-rc2. Emerge nags about things like wrong
package syntax.
- The actual emerge fails because of some collisions
(/usr/share/aclocal/wxwin.m4 and /usr/bin/wx-config)

The files don't seem to belong to any Gentoo package, but I am not quite
sure if theye are installed by my Tiger, or by some other system like darwin
ports or stuff.

Regards
Dirk

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Re: [gentoo-osx] WxWidgets (Aqua libs)

[Grobian]

On 25-03-2006 14:34:00 +0100, Dirk Schönberger wrote:
> Using an ebuild based on the WxGTK I was nearly able to emerge wxCocoa
> 2.6.2.
> Some remaining problems:
> 
> - I cannot really emerge 2.6.3-rc2. Emerge nags about things like wrong
> package syntax.
> - The actual emerge fails because of some collisions
> (/usr/share/aclocal/wxwin.m4 and /usr/bin/wx-config)

% la /usr/share/aclocal/wxwin.m4 /usr/bin/wx-config
lrwxr-xr-x   1 root  wheel    38 12 Oct 20:44 /usr/bin/wx-config -> ../lib/wx/config/mac-unicode-debug-2.5
-rw-r--r--   1 root  wheel  8507 21 Jul  2004 /usr/share/aclocal/wxwin.m4

> The files don't seem to belong to any Gentoo package, but I am not quite
> sure if theye are installed by my Tiger, or by some other system like darwin
> ports or stuff.

I think Apple ships them for you...


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Gentoo for Mac OS X Project
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Re: [gentoo-osx] WxWidgets (Aqua libs)

[Dirk Schönberger]

> > The files don't seem to belong to any Gentoo package, but I am not quite
> > sure if theye are installed by my Tiger, or by some other system like
darwin
> > ports or stuff.

> I think Apple ships them for you...

So it seems to be really stuff for progressive or prefix. ;)
Mission complete. I will see what kind of applications I can build with wx
2.5.
Any chance to get a virtual/wx which I can package.provide against?

Regards
Dirk




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Re: [gentoo-osx] WxWidgets (Aqua libs)

[Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò]

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On Saturday 25 March 2006 14:55, Dirk Schönberger wrote:
> Any chance to get a virtual/wx which I can package.provide against?
Difficult, as it requires to decide at build time which wx to use, see 
wxwindows (or was it wxwidgets) eclass.

You'd have to overlay the eclass and the packages building against it.

-- 
Diego "Flameeyes" Pettenò - http://dev.gentoo.org/~flameeyes/
Gentoo/Alt lead, Gentoo/FreeBSD, Video, AMD64, Sound, PAM, KDE

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Re: [gentoo-osx] WxWidgets (Aqua libs)

[Dirk Schönberger]

> > Any chance to get a virtual/wx which I can package.provide against?
> Difficult, as it requires to decide at build time which wx to use, see
> wxwindows (or was it wxwidgets) eclass.

> You'd have to overlay the eclass and the packages building against it.

If I look at the eclass (provided that I found the correct one ;)
it seems that there are some conceptual problems. In the ebuild you can
specify which backend you (as ebuild developer I suppose)
want want to use, while you still have to link against the correct "backend"
libraries.

Would it be possible that you could use a (cross platform) wxwidgets package
where the actual libraries to be used are calculated in the eclass.
Possibly I am completely off her ;)
A package like wxPython which explicitly depends on WxGTK is not really
helpfull for a cross platform library...

Regards
Dirk

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Re: [gentoo-osx] WxWidgets (Aqua libs)

[Dirk Schönberger]

> > Any chance to get a virtual/wx which I can package.provide against?
> Difficult, as it requires to decide at build time which wx to use, see
> wxwindows (or was it wxwidgets) eclass.

> You'd have to overlay the eclass and the packages building against it.

Ok. I had really looked at the wrong eclass. The correct eclass is wxlib.
If I look as at a possible wx-using package like wxPython, seems that each
package must be "ported" to wxMac / wxCocoa separately.
I would think this could .lead to some conflicts with the package
maintainers, doesn't it?

Regards
Dirk

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