[gentoo-nfp] Gentoo Foundation Trustees nominations

[gentoo-nfp] Gentoo Foundation Trustees nominations

[Francisco Blas Izquierdo Riera (klondike)]

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Hi all!

A common philosophy across the hackers I have grown up with is FIY (Fix
It Yourself). In the spirit of this philosophy I'd like to make the
following nominations to encourage the following people to take a step
forward and try to address the problems they perceive exist on the
Gentoo Foundation:

* Daniel Campbell (zlg)
* Rich Freeman (rich0)
* Kristian Fiskerstand (k_f)
* Andrew Savchenko (bircoph)

Sincerely,
Klondike

(Now sent using my gentoo address, sorry for the spam)





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[gentoo-nfp] Re: Gentoo Foundation Trustees nominations

[Kristian Fiskerstrand]

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On 07/12/2017 12:39 PM, Francisco Blas Izquierdo Riera (klondike) wrote:
> Hi all!
> 
> A common philosophy across the hackers I have grown up with is FIY (Fix
> It Yourself). In the spirit of this philosophy I'd like to make the
> following nominations to encourage the following people to take a step
> forward and try to address the problems they perceive exist on the
> Gentoo Foundation:
> 
> * Daniel Campbell (zlg)
> * Rich Freeman (rich0)
> * Kristian Fiskerstand (k_f)

Thank you for the nomination Francisco, but our [Gentoo Bylaws Section
5.2 Qualification] contains "No individual shall serve as a Gentoo
Foundation Trustee and Gentoo Council Member concurrently ", so I'm not
eligible for standing in this election and as such will have to decline.

References:
[Gentoo Bylaws Section 5.2 Qualification]
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Foundation:Bylaws#Section_5.2._Qualification

-- 
Kristian Fiskerstrand
OpenPGP keyblock reachable at hkp://pool.sks-keyservers.net
fpr:94CB AFDD 3034 5109 5618 35AA 0B7F 8B60 E3ED FAE3


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Re: [gentoo-nfp] Gentoo Foundation Trustees nominations

[Andrew Savchenko]

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On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 12:39:40 +0200 Francisco Blas Izquierdo Riera
(klondike) wrote:
> Hi all!
> 
> A common philosophy across the hackers I have grown up with is FIY (Fix
> It Yourself). In the spirit of this philosophy I'd like to make the
> following nominations to encourage the following people to take a step
> forward and try to address the problems they perceive exist on the
> Gentoo Foundation:
> 
> * Daniel Campbell (zlg)
> * Rich Freeman (rich0)
> * Kristian Fiskerstand (k_f)
> * Andrew Savchenko (bircoph)

Thank you for the nomination.

I'm afraid in case of the trustee position the desire to fix stuff
is not sufficient. If I understand correctly, trustee's work
involves a lot of legal and financial issues. And here we have some
legal and political limitations.

1. The US social security number. To my understanding it is
required to deal with financial and accounting smoothly. I don't
have one and without it the ways I can help will be very limited.

2. Legal expertise. I have near zero knowledge of US laws. I have
some knowledge about Russian laws and experience with its
bureaucracy, but law systems are so different between countries that
such experience is likely more harmful than useful.

3. World political issues. Since trustees need to work within US
law space my Russian citizenship may harm affairs and make things
more complicated for everyone. 

Due to the reason above I have to decline for now. If I'm wrong and
there are other way I can help the Foundation as a trustee without
putting it at any risks, I may reconsider, so these issues may be
discussed below.

Best regards,
Andrew Savchenko

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Re: [gentoo-nfp] Re: Gentoo Foundation Trustees nominations

[Michał Górny]

Dnia 12 lipca 2017 12:58:58 CEST, Kristian Fiskerstrand <k_f@gentoo.org> napisał(a):
>On 07/12/2017 12:39 PM, Francisco Blas Izquierdo Riera (klondike)
>wrote:
>> Hi all!
>> 
>> A common philosophy across the hackers I have grown up with is FIY
>(Fix
>> It Yourself). In the spirit of this philosophy I'd like to make the
>> following nominations to encourage the following people to take a
>step
>> forward and try to address the problems they perceive exist on the
>> Gentoo Foundation:
>> 
>> * Daniel Campbell (zlg)
>> * Rich Freeman (rich0)
>> * Kristian Fiskerstand (k_f)
>
>Thank you for the nomination Francisco, but our [Gentoo Bylaws Section
>5.2 Qualification] contains "No individual shall serve as a Gentoo
>Foundation Trustee and Gentoo Council Member concurrently ", so I'm not
>eligible for standing in this election and as such will have to
>decline.

Just for completeness, you can resign your seat on the council if you're elected.

>
>References:
>[Gentoo Bylaws Section 5.2 Qualification]
>https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Foundation:Bylaws#Section_5.2._Qualification


-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny (by phone)

Re: [gentoo-nfp] Re: Gentoo Foundation Trustees nominations

[Andrew Savchenko]

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On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 15:05:44 +0200 Michał Górny wrote:
> Dnia 12 lipca 2017 12:58:58 CEST, Kristian Fiskerstrand <k_f@gentoo.org> napisał(a):
> >On 07/12/2017 12:39 PM, Francisco Blas Izquierdo Riera (klondike)
> >wrote:
> >> Hi all!
> >> 
> >> A common philosophy across the hackers I have grown up with is FIY
> >(Fix
> >> It Yourself). In the spirit of this philosophy I'd like to make the
> >> following nominations to encourage the following people to take a
> >step
> >> forward and try to address the problems they perceive exist on the
> >> Gentoo Foundation:
> >> 
> >> * Daniel Campbell (zlg)
> >> * Rich Freeman (rich0)
> >> * Kristian Fiskerstand (k_f)
> >
> >Thank you for the nomination Francisco, but our [Gentoo Bylaws Section
> >5.2 Qualification] contains "No individual shall serve as a Gentoo
> >Foundation Trustee and Gentoo Council Member concurrently ", so I'm not
> >eligible for standing in this election and as such will have to
> >decline.
> 
> Just for completeness, you can resign your seat on the council if you're elected.

And you too :)
Hereby I nominate Michał Górny (mgorny)

Best regards,
Andrew Savchenko

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Re: [gentoo-nfp] Gentoo Foundation Trustees nominations

[Francisco Blas Izquierdo Riera (klondike)]

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El 12/07/17 a las 13:56, Andrew Savchenko escribió:
> On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 12:39:40 +0200 Francisco Blas Izquierdo Riera
> (klondike) wrote:
>> Hi all!
>>
>> A common philosophy across the hackers I have grown up with is FIY (Fix
>> It Yourself). In the spirit of this philosophy I'd like to make the
>> following nominations to encourage the following people to take a step
>> forward and try to address the problems they perceive exist on the
>> Gentoo Foundation:
>>
>> * Daniel Campbell (zlg)
>> * Rich Freeman (rich0)
>> * Kristian Fiskerstand (k_f)
>> * Andrew Savchenko (bircoph)
> Thank you for the nomination.
Hi bircoph!
> I'm afraid in case of the trustee position the desire to fix stuff
> is not sufficient. If I understand correctly, trustee's work
> involves a lot of legal and financial issues. And here we have some
> legal and political limitations.
>
> 1. The US social security number. To my understanding it is
> required to deal with financial and accounting smoothly. I don't
> have one and without it the ways I can help will be very limited.
Well for what I know, Swift doesn't have such a number either, yet you
can see he is registered as one of the directors despite being from
Belgium:
https://portal.sos.state.nm.us/BFS/online/CorporationBusinessSearch/CorporationBusinessInformation?businessId=214657

> 2. Legal expertise. I have near zero knowledge of US laws. I have
> some knowledge about Russian laws and experience with its
> bureaucracy, but law systems are so different between countries that
> such experience is likely more harmful than useful.
Although the Gentoo Foundation is based on the USA it's activities
(through the different developers) entail most parts of the world, for
example the Gentoo Foundation sponsored the Gentoo project's presence at
FOSDEM through the adquisition of give aways for marketing. Having
people with knowledge of how other law systems work would be helpful in
many ways, on one side by allowing the Foundation help promote
activities in other countries, on the other by being able to direct the
Foundation if issues to Gentoo developers happen on them.
 
> 3. World political issues. Since trustees need to work within US
> law space my Russian citizenship may harm affairs and make things
> more complicated for everyone. 
If this became a problem I'm very positive the rest of trustees would
agree on moving the foundation somewhere where the citizenship of our
members wouldn't be a problem. Keep in mind that although the Gentoo
Foundation is based on the USA, there is no reason (other than statu quo
and therefore ease of management) to keep it there.

Klondike




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Re: [gentoo-nfp] Gentoo Foundation Trustees nominations

[Rich Freeman]

On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 9:53 AM, Francisco Blas Izquierdo Riera
(klondike) <klondike@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> Keep in mind that although the Gentoo
> Foundation is based on the USA, there is no reason (other than statu quo
> and therefore ease of management) to keep it there.
>

Really?  Certainly many other reasons have been brought up on the
lists, but a few that come to mind include:

1.  Lower regulatory overhead.  For as much difficulty as we seem to
have filing our taxes/etc, the paperwork in the US is a lot easier
than in many places from what I've heard.
2.  Tax benefits for US donors, assuming we ever get 501c3 status.
I'm not sure how important this really is, but a LOT of organizations
set up 501c3s in the US for this reason alone.
3.  A big part of the Foundation's purpose is to be an IP holding
entity, and the US has some of the strongest IP laws in the world.  If
for some reason we wanted to pursue a GPL violation case against
somebody we would get a lot further as a US company in a US court than
we would in a lot of other countries.  I'm not saying I love US IP
law.  I'm just pointing out that the reason copyleft works is because
of copyright, and stronger copyright laws actually result in stronger
copyleft protections.  This is the beauty of copyleft - maybe some day
we'll see IP law reform, but until then having access to US courts
does help make the system work for us.  I didn't mention trademark but
the protections are strong there as well.

There are of course benefits to being elsewhere as well and you've
touched on some of those.  I'm not dismissing that.  However, I think
it is a bit of a stretch to say that there are NO benefits to being
incorporated in the US beyond the status quo.

IMO there are probably benefits to having access to legal entities in
a few countries, but I'm not sure I'd want them to be Foundation
subsidiaries.  And of course it requires people to step up and make it
happen, and keep it going.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-nfp] Gentoo Foundation Trustees nominations

[M. J. Everitt]

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On 12/07/17 15:15, Rich Freeman wrote:
>
> IMO there are probably benefits to having access to legal entities in
> a few countries, but I'm not sure I'd want them to be Foundation
> subsidiaries.  And of course it requires people to step up and make it
> happen, and keep it going.
>
... which I'm pretty sure is the main problem at the moment, with
relatively few 'interested' devs coming from the US .. so, Rich, you
volunteering to join the Foundation Trustees?? I can't nominate, else I
would ...


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Re: [gentoo-nfp] Consequences of moving the Gentoo foundation somewhere else (Was: Gentoo Foundation Trustees nominations)

[Francisco Blas Izquierdo Riera (klondike)]

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El 12/07/17 a las 16:15, Rich Freeman escribió:
> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 9:53 AM, Francisco Blas Izquierdo Riera
> (klondike) <klondike@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> Keep in mind that although the Gentoo
>> Foundation is based on the USA, there is no reason (other than statu quo
>> and therefore ease of management) to keep it there.
>>
> Really?  Certainly many other reasons have been brought up on the
> lists, but a few that come to mind include:
>
> 1.  Lower regulatory overhead.  For as much difficulty as we seem to
> have filing our taxes/etc, the paperwork in the US is a lot easier
> than in many places from what I've heard.
Well I have been involved in the creation of such organizations in Spain
and Sweden. Spain sucks in this aspect a lot. The procedure in Sweden is
a lot more simpler but you have to take care of presenting taxes in
Skatteverket which can be a bit more painful.
> 2.  Tax benefits for US donors, assuming we ever get 501c3 status.
> I'm not sure how important this really is, but a LOT of organizations
> set up 501c3s in the US for this reason alone.
Similar benefits exist in other places of the world, in Spain for
example
http://www.agenciatributaria.es/AEAT.internet/Inicio/Ayuda/Manuales__Folletos_y_Videos/Manuales_de_ayuda_a_la_presentacion/Ejercicio_2016/_Ayuda_Modelo_100/9__Cumplimentacion_IRPF__Anexo_A/9_4__Deducciones_por_donativos_y_otras_aportaciones/9_4_2__Donativos_con_limite_del_10_por_100_de_la_base_liquidable/9_4_2__Donativos_con_limite_del_10_por_100_de_la_base_liquidable.html

I know that such fiscal benefits were removed from Sweden though.

> 3.  A big part of the Foundation's purpose is to be an IP holding
> entity, and the US has some of the strongest IP laws in the world.  If
> for some reason we wanted to pursue a GPL violation case against
> somebody we would get a lot further as a US company in a US court than
> we would in a lot of other countries.  I'm not saying I love US IP
> law.  I'm just pointing out that the reason copyleft works is because
> of copyright, and stronger copyright laws actually result in stronger
> copyleft protections.  This is the beauty of copyleft - maybe some day
> we'll see IP law reform, but until then having access to US courts
> does help make the system work for us.  I didn't mention trademark but
> the protections are strong there as well.
Well, as soon as you get outside of US jurisdiction, after all
violations can and do happen anywhere on the world, you end up with the
International conventions, which involve, amongst others, the Berne
Convention, the Paris Convention or the Madrid Convention.

In our case, since exploitation of Gentoo can happen anywhere on the
world such should be the main frameworks we should be used to as USA
can't put fines or anything for actions carried out of their jurisdiction.

> There are of course benefits to being elsewhere as well and you've
> touched on some of those.  I'm not dismissing that.  However, I think
> it is a bit of a stretch to say that there are NO benefits to being
> incorporated in the US beyond the status quo.
Keep in mind that my point here is more as follows: "IIF being a
national of X country prevents you from being a trustee because of the
regulatory framework where the Gentoo Foundation is based, maybe  it is
time to consider other countries". This would matter beecause "Gentoo
lives for the community, by the community" and excluding part of the
community in our actions would go against such principle.
> IMO there are probably benefits to having access to legal entities in
> a few countries, but I'm not sure I'd want them to be Foundation
> subsidiaries.  And of course it requires people to step up and make it
> happen, and keep it going.
Ugh, I'm reminding now about all these wikimedia chapter thing and how
badly it went, until we get more people willing to do it I doubt it will
be possible (although I agree it would be positive).

rich0 I was serious when I nominated you though so, please consider
accepting the nomination :)


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Re: [gentoo-nfp] Consequences of moving the Gentoo foundation somewhere else (Was: Gentoo Foundation Trustees nominations)

[Rich Freeman]

On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 10:36 AM, Francisco Blas Izquierdo Riera
(klondike) <klondike@gentoo.org> wrote:
> El 12/07/17 a las 16:15, Rich Freeman escribió:
>
>> 2.  Tax benefits for US donors, assuming we ever get 501c3 status.
>> I'm not sure how important this really is, but a LOT of organizations
>> set up 501c3s in the US for this reason alone.
> Similar benefits exist in other places of the world, in Spain for
> example

Not for US donors.  If you want US donors to get a tax break you need
to have a US 501c3.

Of course similar arrangements exist for donors in other countries.
That would be one of the benefits for having multiple organizations.
You basically end up needing orgs in any country where you get a lot
of donations.

Most big orgs that get a lot of donations tend to get a lot of these
donations in the US, so having donors being able to tax-deduct in the
US is a big benefit for them.

It wasn't intended to be a US-is-better-than-Spain/etc comment.

>
> In our case, since exploitation of Gentoo can happen anywhere on the
> world such should be the main frameworks we should be used to as USA
> can't put fines or anything for actions carried out of their jurisdiction.
>

Somebody needs to tell the US government that, because the US enforces
extraterritoriality all the time.  The US also still exerts a lot of
control over the underlying internet infrastructure which it tends to
use to its advantage quite a bit.

Just look at the RIAA-vs-the-world situation.  Sure, it is whack a
mole but there is no question that they manage to get US interests
enforced all over the place.

I'm not saying that is a good thing.  However, the fact is that a
judgment in a US court will get you a lot further than a judgement in
a lot of other courts, because the US tends to throw its weight
around.  If we ever find ourselves wanting to wield that power "for
good" then it could be useful to have access to it.

That was really the only point I was trying to make.  It is something
to think about.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-nfp] Consequences of moving the Gentoo foundation somewhere else (Was: Gentoo Foundation Trustees nominations)

[Francisco Blas Izquierdo Riera (klondike)]

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Hi Rich!

I really like how this discussion is going, I'm learning a lot. Thanks
for taking the time to write answers!

El 12/07/17 a las 16:46, Rich Freeman escribió:
> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 10:36 AM, Francisco Blas Izquierdo Riera
> (klondike) <klondike@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> El 12/07/17 a las 16:15, Rich Freeman escribió:
>>
>>> 2.  Tax benefits for US donors, assuming we ever get 501c3 status.
>>> I'm not sure how important this really is, but a LOT of organizations
>>> set up 501c3s in the US for this reason alone.
>> Similar benefits exist in other places of the world, in Spain for
>> example
> Not for US donors.  If you want US donors to get a tax break you need
> to have a US 501c3.
>
> Of course similar arrangements exist for donors in other countries.
> That would be one of the benefits for having multiple organizations.
> You basically end up needing orgs in any country where you get a lot
> of donations.
>
> Most big orgs that get a lot of donations tend to get a lot of these
> donations in the US, so having donors being able to tax-deduct in the
> US is a big benefit for them.
>
> It wasn't intended to be a US-is-better-than-Spain/etc comment.
No, of course not. Here is one of the "I still lack the experience at
the Gentoo Foundation to make promises" parts I referred to. I don't
know who are all the donors of the Gentoo Foundation nor where they are
based. So if most are based on the USA and attaining 501c3 status is
considered feasible this would be a good reason to either be based there
or having a subchapter.

Still, if I have to make a choice between money and community I suspect
I'll go for community.
>> In our case, since exploitation of Gentoo can happen anywhere on the
>> world such should be the main frameworks we should be used to as USA
>> can't put fines or anything for actions carried out of their jurisdiction.
>>
> Somebody needs to tell the US government that, because the US enforces
> extraterritoriality all the time.  The US also still exerts a lot of
> control over the underlying internet infrastructure which it tends to
> use to its advantage quite a bit.
>
> Just look at the RIAA-vs-the-world situation.  Sure, it is whack a
> mole but there is no question that they manage to get US interests
> enforced all over the place.
>
> I'm not saying that is a good thing.  However, the fact is that a
> judgment in a US court will get you a lot further than a judgement in
> a lot of other courts, because the US tends to throw its weight
> around.  If we ever find ourselves wanting to wield that power "for
> good" then it could be useful to have access to it.
>
> That was really the only point I was trying to make.  It is something
> to think about.

Well, keep in mind that in order to exert such pressure, organizations
like the RIIA perform lobbying as a way to make their interests appear
the US interests. I doubt (and also hope) the Gentoo foundation will
never be on such a bad position and that hopefully we'll be able to work
around such issues by using the currently available legal frameworks
without  having to resource to more unethical measures.

Klondike



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Re: [gentoo-nfp] Consequences of moving the Gentoo foundation somewhere else (Was: Gentoo Foundation Trustees nominations)

[Rich Freeman]

On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 10:59 AM, Francisco Blas Izquierdo Riera
(klondike) <klondike@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> No, of course not. Here is one of the "I still lack the experience at
> the Gentoo Foundation to make promises" parts I referred to. I don't
> know who are all the donors of the Gentoo Foundation nor where they are
> based. So if most are based on the USA and attaining 501c3 status is
> considered feasible this would be a good reason to either be based there
> or having a subchapter.
>

Could Gentoo attain 501c3 status?  Maybe.

Is it likely or worth it?  Questionable, honestly.  IMO we'd be better
off pursuing the umbrella org solution and just leaching off of
somebody else's status (and hopefully benefit from the economies of
scale on overhead).

If we ever started turning over a lot more cash it would probably help
to have this status.

> Still, if I have to make a choice between money and community I suspect
> I'll go for community.

Oh, no argument there.  I don't know what we'd even do with a lot of
donations.  To really make the money work you end up having to build
out more of an org (Apache/Mozilla Foundations come to mind).  I'm not
saying that those orgs don't do good things, but it really is a very
different mindset than what we're all used to.  At some point you end
up having to put the suits in charge.

>
> Well, keep in mind that in order to exert such pressure, organizations
> like the RIIA perform lobbying as a way to make their interests appear
> the US interests. I doubt (and also hope) the Gentoo foundation will
> never be on such a bad position and that hopefully we'll be able to work
> around such issues by using the currently available legal frameworks
> without  having to resource to more unethical measures.
>

I don't know that outright lobbying is needed since the RIAA and such
are already doing it.

However, what it does require is a willingness to actually employ
these kinds of measures.

If somebody was abusing our copyrights beyond a firm but polite
letter, would we REALLY want to deal with legal action?  We barely can
muster up the willpower to file our taxes.  When it comes to paperwork
a lawsuit is a gift that just keeps on giving...

Sure, you can hire lawyers and they do most of the lifting, but you
can hire accountants too, and yet we struggle just to make that happen
(this isn't to diminish all the recent progress on that front - but it
has taken fairly heroic efforts by a few people to get to where we
are, which isn't even where we want to be quite yet, though if we keep
it up I think we'll get there).

So, in some sense the Foundation exists in part to wield a power we
don't actually care to wield.

The flip side is that having our IP registered in the US is probably
useful defensively, so that those who are more willing to resort to
those measures are less able to use them against us.  Of course, if
defense was our main concern maybe it would make sense to not have all
our bank accounts in the US only, where the US doesn't even need to
try to export its laws to seize them.  We're not a ripe target for
such things though - while I could see somebody benefiting from
ignoring our IP, I doubt anybody would bother to try to co-opt it.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-nfp] Gentoo Foundation Trustees nominations

[Andrew Savchenko]

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Hi,

On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 15:53:54 +0200 Francisco Blas Izquierdo Riera
(klondike) wrote:
> Hi bircoph!
> > I'm afraid in case of the trustee position the desire to fix stuff
> > is not sufficient. If I understand correctly, trustee's work
> > involves a lot of legal and financial issues. And here we have some
> > legal and political limitations.
> >
> > 1. The US social security number. To my understanding it is
> > required to deal with financial and accounting smoothly. I don't
> > have one and without it the ways I can help will be very limited.
> Well for what I know, Swift doesn't have such a number either, yet you
> can see he is registered as one of the directors despite being from
> Belgium:
> https://portal.sos.state.nm.us/BFS/online/CorporationBusinessSearch/CorporationBusinessInformation?businessId=214657

I can't even open this URL using Russian IP, they seems to be
blocked. This answers pretty much my concerns. I can open it
through both Tor and proxies in other countries, of course.

I don't know what entity is blocking connections, but my research
shows that blocking is definitely country-based: different cities,
ISP's ip's with the same result. In Russia there is a censorship
present, but the register of blocked resources is publicly
available for queries and provided URL, domain name and its IP
address are not listed there. So at least officially this site is
not blocked in Russia.

I'm not 100% sure that Russian IPs are blocked in US to access some
US national resources, but it is possible.

> > 2. Legal expertise. I have near zero knowledge of US laws. I have
> > some knowledge about Russian laws and experience with its
> > bureaucracy, but law systems are so different between countries that
> > such experience is likely more harmful than useful.
> Although the Gentoo Foundation is based on the USA it's activities
> (through the different developers) entail most parts of the world, for
> example the Gentoo Foundation sponsored the Gentoo project's presence at
> FOSDEM through the adquisition of give aways for marketing. Having
> people with knowledge of how other law systems work would be helpful in
> many ways, on one side by allowing the Foundation help promote
> activities in other countries, on the other by being able to direct the
> Foundation if issues to Gentoo developers happen on them.
>  
> > 3. World political issues. Since trustees need to work within US
> > law space my Russian citizenship may harm affairs and make things
> > more complicated for everyone. 
> If this became a problem I'm very positive the rest of trustees would
> agree on moving the foundation somewhere where the citizenship of our
> members wouldn't be a problem. Keep in mind that although the Gentoo
> Foundation is based on the USA, there is no reason (other than statu quo
> and therefore ease of management) to keep it there.

We are living in the world far from ideal and as Rich pointed out
there are good reasons to keep the Foundation in the US. I just
don't want to cause troubles where it can be avoided.

Best regards,
Andrew Savchenko

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Re: [gentoo-nfp] Gentoo Foundation Trustees nominations

[Matthew Thode]

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On 17-07-12 19:24:33, Andrew Savchenko wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 15:53:54 +0200 Francisco Blas Izquierdo Riera
> (klondike) wrote:
> > Hi bircoph!
> > > I'm afraid in case of the trustee position the desire to fix stuff
> > > is not sufficient. If I understand correctly, trustee's work
> > > involves a lot of legal and financial issues. And here we have some
> > > legal and political limitations.
> > >
> > > 1. The US social security number. To my understanding it is
> > > required to deal with financial and accounting smoothly. I don't
> > > have one and without it the ways I can help will be very limited.
> > Well for what I know, Swift doesn't have such a number either, yet you
> > can see he is registered as one of the directors despite being from
> > Belgium:
> > https://portal.sos.state.nm.us/BFS/online/CorporationBusinessSearch/CorporationBusinessInformation?businessId=214657
> 
> I can't even open this URL using Russian IP, they seems to be
> blocked. This answers pretty much my concerns. I can open it
> through both Tor and proxies in other countries, of course.
> 
> I don't know what entity is blocking connections, but my research
> shows that blocking is definitely country-based: different cities,
> ISP's ip's with the same result. In Russia there is a censorship
> present, but the register of blocked resources is publicly
> available for queries and provided URL, domain name and its IP
> address are not listed there. So at least officially this site is
> not blocked in Russia.
> 
> I'm not 100% sure that Russian IPs are blocked in US to access some
> US national resources, but it is possible.
> 

iirc, others have had problems there too, I think they may be blocking
non-US IPs entirely.

> > > 2. Legal expertise. I have near zero knowledge of US laws. I have
> > > some knowledge about Russian laws and experience with its
> > > bureaucracy, but law systems are so different between countries that
> > > such experience is likely more harmful than useful.
> > Although the Gentoo Foundation is based on the USA it's activities
> > (through the different developers) entail most parts of the world, for
> > example the Gentoo Foundation sponsored the Gentoo project's presence at
> > FOSDEM through the adquisition of give aways for marketing. Having
> > people with knowledge of how other law systems work would be helpful in
> > many ways, on one side by allowing the Foundation help promote
> > activities in other countries, on the other by being able to direct the
> > Foundation if issues to Gentoo developers happen on them.
> >  
> > > 3. World political issues. Since trustees need to work within US
> > > law space my Russian citizenship may harm affairs and make things
> > > more complicated for everyone. 
> > If this became a problem I'm very positive the rest of trustees would
> > agree on moving the foundation somewhere where the citizenship of our
> > members wouldn't be a problem. Keep in mind that although the Gentoo
> > Foundation is based on the USA, there is no reason (other than statu quo
> > and therefore ease of management) to keep it there.
> 
> We are living in the world far from ideal and as Rich pointed out
> there are good reasons to keep the Foundation in the US. I just
> don't want to cause troubles where it can be avoided.
> 
> Best regards,
> Andrew Savchenko


-- 
Matthew Thode (prometheanfire)

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[gentoo-nfp] Re: Gentoo Foundation and Gentoo e.V. (Was: Gentoo Foundation Trustees nominations)

[Andrew Savchenko]

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On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 15:53:54 +0200 Francisco Blas Izquierdo Riera
(klondike) wrote:
> Although the Gentoo Foundation is based on the USA it's activities
> (through the different developers) entail most parts of the world, for
> example the Gentoo Foundation sponsored the Gentoo project's presence at
> FOSDEM through the adquisition of give aways for marketing. Having
> people with knowledge of how other law systems work would be helpful in
> many ways, on one side by allowing the Foundation help promote
> activities in other countries, on the other by being able to direct the
> Foundation if issues to Gentoo developers happen on them.

As far as I know there is one such organization already, Gentoo
e.V. in Germany:
https://gentoo-ev.org/wiki/Main_Page

As far as I understand from their wiki (it's in German, so forgive
me if I misunderstood something, mein Deutsch ist noch schwach)
Gentoo e.V. is a partner of the Foundation focused on supporting
various Gentoo-related events (conferences) and selling Gentoo
merchandise. And looks like they are doing a good job judging from
the presence on various conferences.

If I'm understanding correctly, "e.V." stands for "eingetragener
Verein" meaning "registered association", so Gentoo e.V. is
basically a non-for-profit club with paid membership which promotes
Gentoo and helps it here and there.

I'm not sure how Gentoo e.V. and the Foundation are connected; wiki
of the former says "Gentoo e.V. is a partner of the Gentoo
Foundation", though I'm not sure if this is a partnership by
spirit or some legal binding.

If they are not legally connected maybe it is a good idea to do
this, or may be there are good reasons to keep the status quo. I do
not have a strong opinion here, but it will be interesting to hear
thought of people who understand these matters better than me.

Anyway it will be good to promote Gentoo e.V. more (maybe have an
English site? :)). Frankly I learned that this is a separate
organization only during FOSDEM dinner discussions this year.

Best regards,
Andrew Savchenko

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Re: [gentoo-nfp] Re: Gentoo Foundation and Gentoo e.V. (Was: Gentoo Foundation Trustees nominations)

[Rich Freeman]

On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 1:04 PM, Andrew Savchenko <bircoph@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> I'm not sure how Gentoo e.V. and the Foundation are connected; wiki
> of the former says "Gentoo e.V. is a partner of the Gentoo
> Foundation", though I'm not sure if this is a partnership by
> spirit or some legal binding.
>
> If they are not legally connected maybe it is a good idea to do
> this, or may be there are good reasons to keep the status quo. I do
> not have a strong opinion here, but it will be interesting to hear
> thought of people who understand these matters better than me.
>

Right now I don't believe there is any formal legal relationship
between them.  I used to be a proponent of having one, but I'm not so
sure that is a good idea now.

As soon as you start forming legal relationships you basically start
falling under all the US laws that a lot of people see a non-US org as
a solution to.  For example, if the e.V. wants to financially support
volunteers in a country subject to US embargo, the US Foundation
probably would run into issues having a legal relationship with the
e.V.

Part of me thinks that it makes more sense to keep the relationships
less formal.  Maybe have an umbrella project under the Council that
coordinates local legal entities, and then the e.V. and the Foundation
both fall under that.  Legally they'd be standalone institutions, but
the distro-centered non-legal project would coordinate their actions.
Even if legally the Council couldn't completely dictate their actions,
those voting for board members could ensure that the people who are
running the various orgs are aligned to the overall strategy.

Then if we operate under an umbrella org in a country the liason(s)
for that org could also be a part of that distro-centered project
under the Council.  In the same way we can't dictate all the
operations of the umbrella org but the Council could ensure that the
representatives working with them are aligned with the whole.

So, the structure would look something like:

Council
  - QA
  - arch teams
  - KDE team
  - Comrel
  - Local Organization team
     - e.V.
     - Gentoo Foundation
     - Umbrella Org 1

(Just a smattering of projects above for illustration - this isn't a
change to how the rest of the distro works.  The relationship between
the various legal bodies and the Council is not legally formalized -
they would be accountable to their members which should be aligned to
the distro members, and should be controlled in a way to avoid
forks/etc.)

Just my thoughts on the matter...

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-nfp] Re: Gentoo Foundation and Gentoo e.V. (Was: Gentoo Foundation Trustees nominations)

[Alec Warner]

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On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 1:04 PM, Andrew Savchenko <bircoph@gentoo.org>
wrote:

> On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 15:53:54 +0200 Francisco Blas Izquierdo Riera
> (klondike) wrote:
> > Although the Gentoo Foundation is based on the USA it's activities
> > (through the different developers) entail most parts of the world, for
> > example the Gentoo Foundation sponsored the Gentoo project's presence at
> > FOSDEM through the adquisition of give aways for marketing. Having
> > people with knowledge of how other law systems work would be helpful in
> > many ways, on one side by allowing the Foundation help promote
> > activities in other countries, on the other by being able to direct the
> > Foundation if issues to Gentoo developers happen on them.
>
> As far as I know there is one such organization already, Gentoo
> e.V. in Germany:
> https://gentoo-ev.org/wiki/Main_Page
>
> As far as I understand from their wiki (it's in German, so forgive
> me if I misunderstood something, mein Deutsch ist noch schwach)
> Gentoo e.V. is a partner of the Foundation focused on supporting
> various Gentoo-related events (conferences) and selling Gentoo
> merchandise. And looks like they are doing a good job judging from
> the presence on various conferences.
>
> If I'm understanding correctly, "e.V." stands for "eingetragener
> Verein" meaning "registered association", so Gentoo e.V. is
> basically a non-for-profit club with paid membership which promotes
> Gentoo and helps it here and there.
>
> I'm not sure how Gentoo e.V. and the Foundation are connected; wiki
> of the former says "Gentoo e.V. is a partner of the Gentoo
> Foundation", though I'm not sure if this is a partnership by
> spirit or some legal binding.
>
> If they are not legally connected maybe it is a good idea to do
> this, or may be there are good reasons to keep the status quo. I do
> not have a strong opinion here, but it will be interesting to hear
> thought of people who understand these matters better than me.
>
> Anyway it will be good to promote Gentoo e.V. more (maybe have an
> English site? :)). Frankly I learned that this is a separate
> organization only during FOSDEM dinner discussions this year.
>

We have had an ongoing conversation with the Gentoo e.V. in the past year.
My understanding is that
it is currently also quite understaffed and so developing any kind of
formal relationship has been challenging.

+1 to promoting it more and helping them find volunteers to keep it running.

-A


>
> Best regards,
> Andrew Savchenko
>

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Re: [gentoo-nfp] Gentoo Foundation Trustees nominations

[Andrew Savchenko]

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On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 11:59:16 -0500 Matthew Thode wrote:
> > > https://portal.sos.state.nm.us/BFS/online/CorporationBusinessSearch/CorporationBusinessInformation?businessId=214657
> > 
> > I can't even open this URL using Russian IP, they seems to be
> > blocked. This answers pretty much my concerns. I can open it
> > through both Tor and proxies in other countries, of course.
> > 
> > I don't know what entity is blocking connections, but my research
> > shows that blocking is definitely country-based: different cities,
> > ISP's ip's with the same result. In Russia there is a censorship
> > present, but the register of blocked resources is publicly
> > available for queries and provided URL, domain name and its IP
> > address are not listed there. So at least officially this site is
> > not blocked in Russia.
> > 
> > I'm not 100% sure that Russian IPs are blocked in US to access some
> > US national resources, but it is possible.
> > 
> 
> iirc, others have had problems there too, I think they may be blocking
> non-US IPs entirely.

I just tried from my host in Germany: it works perfectly fine.

Best regards,
Andrew Savchenko

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Re: [gentoo-nfp] Re: Gentoo Foundation Trustees nominations

[Michał Górny]

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On śro, 2017-07-12 at 16:28 +0300, Andrew Savchenko wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 15:05:44 +0200 Michał Górny wrote:
> > Dnia 12 lipca 2017 12:58:58 CEST, Kristian Fiskerstrand <k_f@gentoo.org> napisał(a):
> > > On 07/12/2017 12:39 PM, Francisco Blas Izquierdo Riera (klondike)
> > > wrote:
> > > > Hi all!
> > > > 
> > > > A common philosophy across the hackers I have grown up with is FIY
> > > 
> > > (Fix
> > > > It Yourself). In the spirit of this philosophy I'd like to make the
> > > > following nominations to encourage the following people to take a
> > > 
> > > step
> > > > forward and try to address the problems they perceive exist on the
> > > > Gentoo Foundation:
> > > > 
> > > > * Daniel Campbell (zlg)
> > > > * Rich Freeman (rich0)
> > > > * Kristian Fiskerstand (k_f)
> > > 
> > > Thank you for the nomination Francisco, but our [Gentoo Bylaws Section
> > > 5.2 Qualification] contains "No individual shall serve as a Gentoo
> > > Foundation Trustee and Gentoo Council Member concurrently ", so I'm not
> > > eligible for standing in this election and as such will have to
> > > decline.
> > 
> > Just for completeness, you can resign your seat on the council if you're elected.
> 
> And you too :)
> Hereby I nominate Michał Górny (mgorny)
> 

I'm not sure if you were serious but I'll answer nevertheless: thank you
 but I'll decline. The responsibilities of a Trustee are of no interest
to me.

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny

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Re: [gentoo-nfp] Re: Gentoo Foundation and Gentoo e.V. (Was: Gentoo Foundation Trustees nominations)

[Andrew Savchenko]

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On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 13:16:50 -0400 Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 1:04 PM, Andrew Savchenko <bircoph@gentoo.org> wrote:
> >
> > I'm not sure how Gentoo e.V. and the Foundation are connected; wiki
> > of the former says "Gentoo e.V. is a partner of the Gentoo
> > Foundation", though I'm not sure if this is a partnership by
> > spirit or some legal binding.
> >
> > If they are not legally connected maybe it is a good idea to do
> > this, or may be there are good reasons to keep the status quo. I do
> > not have a strong opinion here, but it will be interesting to hear
> > thought of people who understand these matters better than me.
> >
> 
> Right now I don't believe there is any formal legal relationship
> between them.  I used to be a proponent of having one, but I'm not so
> sure that is a good idea now.
> 
> As soon as you start forming legal relationships you basically start
> falling under all the US laws that a lot of people see a non-US org as
> a solution to.  For example, if the e.V. wants to financially support
> volunteers in a country subject to US embargo, the US Foundation
> probably would run into issues having a legal relationship with the
> e.V.
> 
> Part of me thinks that it makes more sense to keep the relationships
> less formal.  Maybe have an umbrella project under the Council that
> coordinates local legal entities, and then the e.V. and the Foundation
> both fall under that.  Legally they'd be standalone institutions, but
> the distro-centered non-legal project would coordinate their actions.
> Even if legally the Council couldn't completely dictate their actions,
> those voting for board members could ensure that the people who are
> running the various orgs are aligned to the overall strategy.
> 
> Then if we operate under an umbrella org in a country the liason(s)
> for that org could also be a part of that distro-centered project
> under the Council.  In the same way we can't dictate all the
> operations of the umbrella org but the Council could ensure that the
> representatives working with them are aligned with the whole.
> 
> So, the structure would look something like:
> 
> Council
>   - QA
>   - arch teams
>   - KDE team
>   - Comrel
>   - Local Organization team
>      - e.V.
>      - Gentoo Foundation
>      - Umbrella Org 1
> 
> (Just a smattering of projects above for illustration - this isn't a
> change to how the rest of the distro works.  The relationship between
> the various legal bodies and the Council is not legally formalized -
> they would be accountable to their members which should be aligned to
> the distro members, and should be controlled in a way to avoid
> forks/etc.)
> 
> Just my thoughts on the matter...

Thanks, this is indeed a good architecture. Actually we'll have this
way a container/VM-level separation of legislative risks and
opportunities while still connected via the same host system to
achieve the same goals. I really like that :)

Best regards,
Andrew Savchenko

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Re: [gentoo-nfp] Re: Gentoo Foundation and Gentoo e.V. (Was: Gentoo Foundation Trustees nominations)

[M. J. Everitt]

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On 12/07/17 18:04, Andrew Savchenko wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 15:53:54 +0200 Francisco Blas Izquierdo Riera
> (klondike) wrote:
>> Although the Gentoo Foundation is based on the USA it's activities
>> (through the different developers) entail most parts of the world, for
>> example the Gentoo Foundation sponsored the Gentoo project's presence at
>> FOSDEM through the adquisition of give aways for marketing. Having
>> people with knowledge of how other law systems work would be helpful in
>> many ways, on one side by allowing the Foundation help promote
>> activities in other countries, on the other by being able to direct the
>> Foundation if issues to Gentoo developers happen on them.
> As far as I know there is one such organization already, Gentoo
> e.V. in Germany:
> https://gentoo-ev.org/wiki/Main_Page
>
> As far as I understand from their wiki (it's in German, so forgive
> me if I misunderstood something, mein Deutsch ist noch schwach)
> Gentoo e.V. is a partner of the Foundation focused on supporting
> various Gentoo-related events (conferences) and selling Gentoo
> merchandise. And looks like they are doing a good job judging from
> the presence on various conferences.
>
> If I'm understanding correctly, "e.V." stands for "eingetragener
> Verein" meaning "registered association", so Gentoo e.V. is
> basically a non-for-profit club with paid membership which promotes
> Gentoo and helps it here and there.
>
> I'm not sure how Gentoo e.V. and the Foundation are connected; wiki
> of the former says "Gentoo e.V. is a partner of the Gentoo
> Foundation", though I'm not sure if this is a partnership by
> spirit or some legal binding.
>
> If they are not legally connected maybe it is a good idea to do
> this, or may be there are good reasons to keep the status quo. I do
> not have a strong opinion here, but it will be interesting to hear
> thought of people who understand these matters better than me.
>
> Anyway it will be good to promote Gentoo e.V. more (maybe have an
> English site? :)). Frankly I learned that this is a separate
> organization only during FOSDEM dinner discussions this year.
>
> Best regards,
> Andrew Savchenko
Is there any mechanism for joining / supporting the European body at
all? I, too, had done some very basic research prior to FOSDEM and think
that those of us based in Europe might be better affiliated to that
organisation than the American one... potentially.

MJE


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Re: [gentoo-nfp] Re: Gentoo Foundation and Gentoo e.V. (Was: Gentoo Foundation Trustees nominations)

[Rich Freeman]

On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 8:58 AM, Andrew Savchenko <bircoph@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 13:16:50 -0400 Rich Freeman wrote:
>>
>> So, the structure would look something like:
>>
>> Council
>>   - QA
>>   - arch teams
>>   - KDE team
>>   - Comrel
>>   - Local Organization team
>>      - e.V.
>>      - Gentoo Foundation
>>      - Umbrella Org 1
>>
>> (Just a smattering of projects above for illustration - this isn't a
>> change to how the rest of the distro works.  The relationship between
>> the various legal bodies and the Council is not legally formalized -
>> they would be accountable to their members which should be aligned to
>> the distro members, and should be controlled in a way to avoid
>> forks/etc.)
>>
>> Just my thoughts on the matter...
>
> Thanks, this is indeed a good architecture. Actually we'll have this
> way a container/VM-level separation of legislative risks and
> opportunities while still connected via the same host system to
> achieve the same goals. I really like that :)
>

It still has a weakness that IMO is not easily avoidable: legally the
various orgs are not accountable to the Council directly, which means
that they could do hostile forks/etc.  The issue is that countries
operate with sovereignty and their laws operate accordingly.  So, to
DE the e.V. is Gentoo, and to the US the Foundation is Gentoo, and
maybe in some other country some umbrella org is Gentoo.  The overall
distro really is a non-entity from a legal standpoint everywhere.

The strength is that the boards running the various legal entities
only need to focus on keeping the legal entity running, and formal
legal activities are firewalled inside their borders so that the
overall distro has a lower overhead.  It also allows individual legal
entities to be spun up or down as needed, and firewalls them from each
other.

Note that the firewalls are not perfect.  You can't have the parent
distro just doing blatantly illegal stuff because if that happens
somebody will be determined enough to poke holes in this, and of
course anything that happens in the physical world happens on a box
owned by somebody.  Since criminal organizations tend to play legal
games the laws generally are written to handle them.

The more traditional approach would be something like this:

Gentoo Foundation (US)
  - Distro Ops Team (Council)
     - arch teams
     - KDE team
   - Accounting
   - HR
   - Legal
   - Subsidiary Relations Team
     - e.V
     - Umbrella org 1
     - Gentoo run subsidiary in random country

(You could of course put any of the legal entities on the top and the
US foundation underneath too.)

In this model (which is how most multinational companies operate)
there would be formal legal control.  In this instance the US board
would have overall governance of everything.  The issues with the
traditional model are:
1.  The board has to be jacks of all trades, or at least be trusted to
stay in the lines because legally they control everything everywhere.
2.  Everything falls under the legal umbrella, so the laws of the
parent country basically apply to everything we do.  The really tricky
US laws like embargoes/etc generally apply to foreign subsidiaries,
for example.
3.  There will inevitably be a debate over which country ends up on
top.  Even if the "right" choice is made, as manpower shifts the
structure could become inconvenient, with the country that was picked
because that is where most devs live becoming the country where nobody
lives anymore.  Changing the structure is difficult or impossible.
4.  It has more of a sense of putting the suits in charge.  To be fair
this is how a LOT of FOSS orgs operate (think Apache, Mozilla,
Canonical, etc).  However, I suspect it is not the model most would
prefer here.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-nfp] Re: Gentoo Foundation and Gentoo e.V. (Was: Gentoo Foundation Trustees nominations)

[Roy Bamford]

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On 2017.07.13 14:17, Rich Freeman wrote:
[snip]
> 
> The more traditional approach would be something like this:
> 
> Gentoo Foundation (US)
>   - Distro Ops Team (Council)
[snip]
>    - Legal
>    - Subsidiary Relations Team
>      - e.V
>      - Umbrella org 1
>      - Gentoo run subsidiary in random country
> 
> (You could of course put any of the legal entities on the top and the
> US foundation underneath too.)
> 
> In this model (which is how most multinational companies operate)
> there would be formal legal control. 
[snip]

> -- 
> Rich
> 
> 
> 

Rich,

As you have said before (I don't have a quote handy) that regardless
of the organisation we publish, US courts may see it that way anyway.

I'm not in a hurry to find out though, since it would mean asking an
American court. 

-- 
Regards,

Roy Bamford
(Neddyseagoon) a member of
elections
gentoo-ops
forum-mods

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Re: [gentoo-nfp] Re: Gentoo Foundation and Gentoo e.V. (Was: Gentoo Foundation Trustees nominations)

[Rich Freeman]

On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 10:14 AM, Roy Bamford <neddyseagoon@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> As you have said before (I don't have a quote handy) that regardless
> of the organisation we publish, US courts may see it that way anyway.
>

A US court would see the US org as the whole picture.  A DE court
would probably see the e.V. as the whole picture.  It isn't actually a
problem, IMO.

Legally the Foundation would basically be the universe in a US court,
and the Council wouldn't exist.  However, in reality the Foundation
would still be following the Council directives as long as they're
legal.

There wouldn't be any effort to explain the "real" org structure to a
US court.  The Foundation would just act as if it were the only org.
It would have no legal relationships with any of the other orgs.  If
the e.V. were called into a court it would also act as if it were the
only organization.  How we manage them really wouldn't matter legally.
The Foundation would be accountable for the Foundation's actions.  The
board would be elected by the members, though we'd probably want to
align those members with the larger distro or otherwise try to ensure
that the top-down model influences its operation.

Legal compliance within the laws of each jurisdiction would fall
inside each legal entity.  The US Foundation would ensure it follows
US laws.  The e.V. would ensure it follows DE/EU laws.  And so on.
Just putting them in an org chart doesn't change that reality.  It
just gives the overall community a framework for how we deal with all
this and how we might fit them into a larger strategy.  Property owned
by one of these entities would have to follow any compliance rules set
by the entity.  For example, an LDAP server owned by an EU entity
might have to follow EU privacy laws (with safe harbor/etc that tends
to be the reality everywhere anyway).

Distro-level projects like PR, KDE, etc would just operate under the
Council (with the usual hands-off-unless-there-is-a-problem approach).
If they needed to spend money or have access to hardware then they'd
talk to the appropriate lead (infra or the overall legal entity
project) and they would fit the request into the global strategy and
determine which legal entity should service the request and route it
to them.  If infra wanted the server in the EU and wanted the e.V. to
fund it then they'd hand it to them, etc.  There could be an overall
project that manages all these legal entities that coordinates their
actions, etc.  Of course we don't need much overhead while we only
have 1-2 legal entities.

Individual legal entities would be simplified.  They wouldn't really
initiative distro-level work.  They would just maintain the books and
evaluate requests for compliance and issue checks.  They would also
maintain their individual budgets, and coordinate with the
higher-level org or projects like infra so that they can come up with
an overall strategy for things like where we want our hardware owned,
or where we want to steer donors.  We can't force donors to send their
money to the org we prefer, but we could encourage it, because maybe
for whatever reason it would be better to have more money going into
the e.V. vs the Foundation.

Another downside to this model is that we can't really move money
around.  If all the orgs were legally related (subsidiaries) then
moving money would be straightforward as long as the right taxes get
paid.  With them being separate then money in one pot can't be moved
to another.  The flip side is that if one gets sued it will be much
harder to get at the others.

As far as the "two headed monster" issue goes, we present ourselves as
having the Council in charge.  Of course, in many cases outsiders
would interact at a lower level (such as with PR, or a particular
project).  When the time comes for money to be handed around we ask
the partner which entity they'd prefer to deal with, and then direct
them appropriately.  Other than not having a legal entity at the top
it isn't actually very different from how many companies operate.
When I deal with vendors at work all the time we talk about whether it
makes more sense for them to be paid by our US entity or one of our
subsidiaries.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-nfp] Re: Gentoo Foundation and Gentoo e.V. (Was: Gentoo Foundation Trustees nominations)

[Andrew Savchenko]

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On Thu, 13 Jul 2017 14:14:59 +0100 M. J. Everitt wrote:
> On 12/07/17 18:04, Andrew Savchenko wrote:
> > On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 15:53:54 +0200 Francisco Blas Izquierdo Riera
> > (klondike) wrote:
> >> Although the Gentoo Foundation is based on the USA it's activities
> >> (through the different developers) entail most parts of the world, for
> >> example the Gentoo Foundation sponsored the Gentoo project's presence at
> >> FOSDEM through the adquisition of give aways for marketing. Having
> >> people with knowledge of how other law systems work would be helpful in
> >> many ways, on one side by allowing the Foundation help promote
> >> activities in other countries, on the other by being able to direct the
> >> Foundation if issues to Gentoo developers happen on them.
> > As far as I know there is one such organization already, Gentoo
> > e.V. in Germany:
> > https://gentoo-ev.org/wiki/Main_Page
> >
> > As far as I understand from their wiki (it's in German, so forgive
> > me if I misunderstood something, mein Deutsch ist noch schwach)
> > Gentoo e.V. is a partner of the Foundation focused on supporting
> > various Gentoo-related events (conferences) and selling Gentoo
> > merchandise. And looks like they are doing a good job judging from
> > the presence on various conferences.
> >
> > If I'm understanding correctly, "e.V." stands for "eingetragener
> > Verein" meaning "registered association", so Gentoo e.V. is
> > basically a non-for-profit club with paid membership which promotes
> > Gentoo and helps it here and there.
> >
> > I'm not sure how Gentoo e.V. and the Foundation are connected; wiki
> > of the former says "Gentoo e.V. is a partner of the Gentoo
> > Foundation", though I'm not sure if this is a partnership by
> > spirit or some legal binding.
> >
> > If they are not legally connected maybe it is a good idea to do
> > this, or may be there are good reasons to keep the status quo. I do
> > not have a strong opinion here, but it will be interesting to hear
> > thought of people who understand these matters better than me.
> >
> > Anyway it will be good to promote Gentoo e.V. more (maybe have an
> > English site? :)). Frankly I learned that this is a separate
> > organization only during FOSDEM dinner discussions this year.
>
> Is there any mechanism for joining / supporting the European body at
> all? I, too, had done some very basic research prior to FOSDEM and think
> that those of us based in Europe might be better affiliated to that
> organisation than the American one... potentially.

Gentoo e.V. have the Membersip application form available here[1]
(in German). It was updated last time at Aug 8th 2016, so this is a
good sign.

The membership fee is 6€ quarterly or 20€ annually. Bank account
IBAN/BIC is available here. Postal address is present in the form,
maybe it can be sent via an e-mail as well.

The contact page[2] contains an e-mail: www@gentoo-ev.org and bank
account information (IBAN/BIC), the same one as the application
form. I suppose that this account may be used for donations as well
as for membership fees. But better ask them via contact e-mail.

There two mail lists available[3]: announce and discussion, but I
can't access the archives. Whether they are not public by mistake
or on purpose, I don't know. Looks like anyone can subscribe to
them, the third list is for members only.

I'm CC'ing to this discussion the Gentoo e.V. official contact and
Sebastian Pipping (sping) because he is listed as the Gentoo e.V.
Chairman at the contact page (other two persons are not on the
active developers list). He should be able to give you authoritative
answers here.

[1] https://www.gentoo-ev.org/w/images/d/df/Mitgliedsantrag.pdf
[2] https://gentoo-ev.org/wiki/Kontakt
[3] https://lists.gentoo-ev.org/listinfo

Best regards,
Andrew Savchenko

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Re: [gentoo-nfp] Gentoo Foundation Trustees nominations

[Robin H. Johnson]

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On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 02:56:41PM +0300, Andrew Savchenko wrote:
> I'm afraid in case of the trustee position the desire to fix stuff
> is not sufficient. If I understand correctly, trustee's work
> involves a lot of legal and financial issues. And here we have some
> legal and political limitations.
> 
> 1. The US social security number. To my understanding it is
> required to deal with financial and accounting smoothly. I don't
> have one and without it the ways I can help will be very limited.
I'll clarify Bircoph's point here, as the present treasurer:
- The IRS requires the filer to have a SSN or a Individual Taxpayer
  Identification Number [ITIN]. The filer doesn't have to be a trustee,
  but it helps a lot; if the filer isn't a trustee, then a trustee must
  sign in addition to the filer (eg a CPA or lawyer can be the filer).
- The present US bank, Capital One, refuses to have me as an authorized
  signer or owner on the account, even if I were to have an ITIN (the
  non-resident equivilent of the US social security number [SSN]). They
  will allow only persons with a US resident status (e.g. US citizen, or
  otherwise able to legally reside in the US).

This has NOT stopped me from being the treasurer, but does stop me from
being listed with the bank, or filing the IRS paperwork on my own.

I do want to see if I can find an international bank that will improve
the banking problem, because if the present 3 nominees do take office,
that leaves only two US residents to handle the bank side.

-- 
Robin Hugh Johnson
Gentoo Linux: Dev, Infra Lead, Foundation Trustee & Treasurer
E-Mail   : robbat2@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP : 11ACBA4F 4778E3F6 E4EDF38E B27B944E 34884E85
GnuPG FP : 7D0B3CEB E9B85B1F 825BCECF EE05E6F6 A48F6136

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Re: [gentoo-nfp] Gentoo Foundation Trustees nominations

[Daniel Campbell]

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On 07/12/2017 03:39 AM, Francisco Blas Izquierdo Riera (klondike) wrote:
> Hi all!
> 
> A common philosophy across the hackers I have grown up with is FIY (Fix
> It Yourself). In the spirit of this philosophy I'd like to make the
> following nominations to encourage the following people to take a step
> forward and try to address the problems they perceive exist on the
> Gentoo Foundation:
> 
> * Daniel Campbell (zlg)
> * Rich Freeman (rich0)
> * Kristian Fiskerstand (k_f)
> * Andrew Savchenko (bircoph)
> 
> Sincerely,
> Klondike
> 
> (Now sent using my gentoo address, sorry for the spam)
> 
> 
> 
> 
My apologies for taking so long to respond. I was surprised by the
nomination and spent some time to think it over.

I will accept the nomination.

Here is my manifesto:

  http://dev.gentoo.org/~zlg/2017-trustee-manifesto.txt.asc

Thank you for the honor.
-- 
Daniel Campbell - Gentoo Developer
OpenPGP Key: 0x1EA055D6 @ hkp://keys.gnupg.net
fpr: AE03 9064 AE00 053C 270C  1DE4 6F7A 9091 1EA0 55D6


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[gentoo-nfp] Re: Gentoo Foundation Trustees nominations

[Rich Freeman]

On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 6:39 AM, Francisco Blas Izquierdo Riera
(klondike) <klondike@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> A common philosophy across the hackers I have grown up with is FIY (Fix
> It Yourself). In the spirit of this philosophy I'd like to make the
> following nominations to encourage the following people to take a step
> forward and try to address the problems they perceive exist on the
> Gentoo Foundation:
>
> * Rich Freeman (rich0)

Thank you for the nomination, but I'm going to decline this year.  I
probably will try to contribute where I can to improve things, but not
as a trustee.

-- 
Rich