* [gentoo-java] Deprecating JDK 1.4
@ 2008-07-13 10:01 Krzysiek Pawlik
[not found] ` <d61c57300807130324o5446afaah3b94e23ada11e8ce@mail.gmail.com>
` (2 more replies)
0 siblings, 3 replies; 13+ messages in thread
From: Krzysiek Pawlik @ 2008-07-13 10:01 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Gentoo Java, java
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Hi,
As I mentioned in the thread "[gentoo-java] caucho-services, burlap and hessian
mess" I'm going to deprecate 1.4 - there was not much feedback on that topic ;)
Current plan is:
* migrate 5 remaining packages to generation 2 (or if masked remove them) -
current list (as of today):
http://dev.gentoo.org/~nelchael/java-generation-2/not-migrated-20080713
* make generation 1 eclasses die instead of QA violation warning
* change eclasses that have >?=virtual/jdk-1.4.* (java-gnome and php4_4-sapi)
* rev bump every package with >?=virtual/jdk-1.4.*:
* if package has soft dependency on 1.4 (>=1.4) - raise it to 1.4 - that's
the easy case
* if package has hard dependency on 1.4 (=1.4) - try to compile with 1.5,
eventually patch it to work
* if package refuses to compile/work with >1.4 - package.mask, slate for removal
* get all rev bumped packages stabilized (if package has stable version in
corresponding SLOT)
* remove old versions of touched packages
* remove java5 use flag
* start dropping generation 1 from the tree:
* make old eclasses a stub - so unmerge works
* remove generation 1 bits from JDK ebuilds
* package.mask java-config-1*
* remove virtual/jdk-1.4.1
* clean up dev-java/* - prune old versions (for example currently:
java-config-wrapper - 3 stable versions in same SLOT)
What that huge change means to us? As you may (or may not) know Sun is stopping
support for 1.4 soon, so we need to move away from it. Also if we focus on
modern JDK versions (1.5, 1.6 and soon 1.7) we'll have less work, as most major
changes occurred between 1.4 and 1.5. Basically whatever is 1.5 compatible
should work with 1.6 and 1.7.
Note: that does NOT mean that I'm proposing to remove JDK 1.4 from the tree - it
will stay to people who need it can still use it. On the other hand few months
after Sun EOLs 1.4 we *should* consider dropping 1.4 JDKs.
If there are no objections I'm going to start the big changes around Friday (18
July). I'm planning also to get a heads-up announcement in GMN for July.
I'm also asking everybody for help: when the process starts please start fixing
ebuilds too - changing 370 packages is not an easy task to take alone.
Jean-Noël: Eclipse is quite special case here: as 3.2* requires both: 1.4 and
1.5 - could you start the process of stabilizing 3.3.1.1-r1 ?
--
Krzysiek Pawlik <nelchael at gentoo.org> key id: 0xBC555551
desktop-misc, java, apache, ppc, vim, kernel, python...
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* [gentoo-java] Re: Deprecating JDK 1.4
[not found] ` <d61c57300807130324o5446afaah3b94e23ada11e8ce@mail.gmail.com>
@ 2008-07-13 10:31 ` Krzysiek Pawlik
0 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread
From: Krzysiek Pawlik @ 2008-07-13 10:31 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Jean-Noël Rivasseau, Gentoo Java, java
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Jean-Noël Rivasseau wrote:
> Dropping support for 1.4 is good news for me :)
:)
> Wrt Eclipse, I hope to stabilize 3.4, not 3.3 as it has several
> problems / bugs that I did not have time to look at. My current
> development time is focused on 3.4 as I unfortunately dont have time
> for both. I am making good progress thanks to geki's work in
> particular, so I hope to have 3.4 packaged and running in about one
> month.
Could you send it to gentoo-java@ also? As it's a public list. That should not
interfere with plan to deprecate 1.4 as it'll take a more than a month to do it
anyway.
--
Krzysiek Pawlik <nelchael at gentoo.org> key id: 0xBC555551
desktop-misc, java, apache, ppc, vim, kernel, python...
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* [gentoo-java] Re: Deprecating JDK 1.4
2008-07-13 10:01 [gentoo-java] Deprecating JDK 1.4 Krzysiek Pawlik
[not found] ` <d61c57300807130324o5446afaah3b94e23ada11e8ce@mail.gmail.com>
@ 2008-07-14 21:16 ` Jörg Schaible
2008-07-16 12:15 ` Krzysiek Pawlik
2008-07-16 17:38 ` [gentoo-java] " Petteri Räty
2 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread
From: Jörg Schaible @ 2008-07-14 21:16 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-java
Hi Pawlik,
Krzysiek Pawlik wrote:
[snip]
> What that huge change means to us? As you may (or may not) know Sun is
> stopping support for 1.4 soon, so we need to move away from it. Also if we
> focus on modern JDK versions (1.5, 1.6 and soon 1.7) we'll have less work,
> as most major changes occurred between 1.4 and 1.5. Basically whatever is
> 1.5 compatible should work with 1.6 and 1.7.
>
> Note: that does NOT mean that I'm proposing to remove JDK 1.4 from the
> tree - it will stay to people who need it can still use it. On the other
> hand few months after Sun EOLs 1.4 we *should* consider dropping 1.4 JDKs.
Please note, that Sun is still supporting JDK 1.3 for *paying* customers. It
will take years till Sun is completely dropping 1.4:
http://www.sun.com/software/javaseforbusiness/support.jsp
Therefore I still have even 1.3 ebuilds on my local tree. And I had to
download and use the official ant binaries to run it with 1.3. Dropping 1.4
means also that it is no longer possible to run Maven with its minimum JDK
requirement.
In Gentoo all is about choice, but this seem not to apply for Java
development. For me it gets unusable.
[snip]
- Jörg
--
gentoo-java@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread* Re: [gentoo-java] Re: Deprecating JDK 1.4
2008-07-14 21:16 ` Jörg Schaible
@ 2008-07-16 12:15 ` Krzysiek Pawlik
2008-07-16 17:33 ` Petteri Räty
2008-07-17 19:50 ` [gentoo-java] " Jörg Schaible
0 siblings, 2 replies; 13+ messages in thread
From: Krzysiek Pawlik @ 2008-07-16 12:15 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Gentoo Java
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Jörg Schaible wrote:
> Please note, that Sun is still supporting JDK 1.3 for *paying* customers. It
> will take years till Sun is completely dropping 1.4:
>
> http://www.sun.com/software/javaseforbusiness/support.jsp
Yes, but the free Java world goes forward, plethora of projects use generics -
and they require >= 1.5 (or any other feature of JDK 1.5).
> Therefore I still have even 1.3 ebuilds on my local tree. And I had to
> download and use the official ant binaries to run it with 1.3. Dropping 1.4
> means also that it is no longer possible to run Maven with its minimum JDK
> requirement.
Yes, but VM which is running maven is not the same as VM for which the code is
generated (note -source and -target options of javac).
> In Gentoo all is about choice, but this seem not to apply for Java
> development. For me it gets unusable.
You're missing the point: the official tree (gentoo-x86) will require >=1.5,
*but*: if you install JDK 1.4 (or any other version) you can still use it for
your own software (including maven, ant and so on).
Also like I said - more and more things require 1.5, which means that all things
depending on them also need to be >= 1.5. For example: new hessian requires >=
1.5, which means that mx4j needs also to be switched to 1.5, which means we have
to switch anything depending on mx4j, and so on.
--
Krzysiek Pawlik <nelchael at gentoo.org> key id: 0xBC555551
desktop-misc, java, apache, ppc, vim, kernel, python...
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* Re: [gentoo-java] Re: Deprecating JDK 1.4
2008-07-16 12:15 ` Krzysiek Pawlik
@ 2008-07-16 17:33 ` Petteri Räty
2008-07-16 17:57 ` Krzysiek Pawlik
2008-07-17 19:50 ` [gentoo-java] " Jörg Schaible
1 sibling, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread
From: Petteri Räty @ 2008-07-16 17:33 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Gentoo Java
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Krzysiek Pawlik kirjoitti:
> Jörg Schaible wrote:
>> Please note, that Sun is still supporting JDK 1.3 for *paying*
>> customers. It
>> will take years till Sun is completely dropping 1.4:
>>
>> http://www.sun.com/software/javaseforbusiness/support.jsp
>
> Yes, but the free Java world goes forward, plethora of projects use
> generics -
> and they require >= 1.5 (or any other feature of JDK 1.5).
>
>> Therefore I still have even 1.3 ebuilds on my local tree. And I had to
>> download and use the official ant binaries to run it with 1.3.
>> Dropping 1.4
>> means also that it is no longer possible to run Maven with its minimum
>> JDK
>> requirement.
>
> Yes, but VM which is running maven is not the same as VM for which the
> code is
> generated (note -source and -target options of javac).
>
>> In Gentoo all is about choice, but this seem not to apply for Java
>> development. For me it gets unusable.
>
> You're missing the point: the official tree (gentoo-x86) will require
> >=1.5,
> *but*: if you install JDK 1.4 (or any other version) you can still use
> it for
> your own software (including maven, ant and so on).
>
> Also like I said - more and more things require 1.5, which means that
> all things
> depending on them also need to be >= 1.5. For example: new hessian
> requires >=
> 1.5, which means that mx4j needs also to be switched to 1.5, which means
> we have
> to switch anything depending on mx4j, and so on.
>
I don't think we will be removing 1.4 JDKs from the main tree before Sun
EOLs them. Even after that I think we will be keeping them around in the
Java overlay. The point here is that we will end our support for using
1.4 as the system VM and build VM when Sun EOLs it.
Regards,
Petteri
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* [gentoo-java] Re: Re: Deprecating JDK 1.4
2008-07-16 12:15 ` Krzysiek Pawlik
2008-07-16 17:33 ` Petteri Räty
@ 2008-07-17 19:50 ` Jörg Schaible
2008-07-19 17:06 ` Petteri Räty
1 sibling, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread
From: Jörg Schaible @ 2008-07-17 19:50 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-java
Krzysiek Pawlik wrote:
> Jörg Schaible wrote:
>> Please note, that Sun is still supporting JDK 1.3 for *paying* customers.
>> It will take years till Sun is completely dropping 1.4:
>>
>> http://www.sun.com/software/javaseforbusiness/support.jsp
>
> Yes, but the free Java world goes forward, plethora of projects use
> generics - and they require >= 1.5 (or any other feature of JDK 1.5).
>
>> Therefore I still have even 1.3 ebuilds on my local tree. And I had to
>> download and use the official ant binaries to run it with 1.3. Dropping
>> 1.4 means also that it is no longer possible to run Maven with its
>> minimum JDK requirement.
>
> Yes, but VM which is running maven is not the same as VM for which the
> code is generated (note -source and -target options of javac).
Be sure, I found them some years ago.
>> In Gentoo all is about choice, but this seem not to apply for Java
>> development. For me it gets unusable.
>
> You're missing the point: the official tree (gentoo-x86) will require
> >=1.5, *but*: if you install JDK 1.4 (or any other version) you can still
> use it for your own software (including maven, ant and so on).
Theoretically. At least in Gentoo. Using original binary distributions, it
is definitely possible.
> Also like I said - more and more things require 1.5, which means that all
> things depending on them also need to be >= 1.5. For example: new hessian
> requires >= 1.5, which means that mx4j needs also to be switched to 1.5,
> which means we have to switch anything depending on mx4j, and so on.
So, and where can I define then my minimum supported JDK version
(setting -source and -target)? Can I define that my system should be JDK
1.3 compatible - at least for all packages that support this (e.g.
commons-logging)? Will packages like mx4j slotted to have the last JDK 1.4
compatible and the JDK 5 compatible version? ... No, I know. However, I
still have to provide JDK 1.3 (or at least 1.4) compatible software. And
this does not simply mean to compile code, it also means to run it!
This will more or less lead to the situation, where I have to drop the
complete Gentoo Java packages (except the JDK's themselves) and install
everything else myself using the binaries.
- Jörg
--
gentoo-java@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-java] Re: Re: Deprecating JDK 1.4
2008-07-17 19:50 ` [gentoo-java] " Jörg Schaible
@ 2008-07-19 17:06 ` Petteri Räty
0 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread
From: Petteri Räty @ 2008-07-19 17:06 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-java
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Jörg Schaible kirjoitti:
>
>> Also like I said - more and more things require 1.5, which means that all
>> things depending on them also need to be >= 1.5. For example: new hessian
>> requires >= 1.5, which means that mx4j needs also to be switched to 1.5,
>> which means we have to switch anything depending on mx4j, and so on.
>
> So, and where can I define then my minimum supported JDK version
> (setting -source and -target)? Can I define that my system should be JDK
> 1.3 compatible - at least for all packages that support this (e.g.
> commons-logging)? Will packages like mx4j slotted to have the last JDK 1.4
> compatible and the JDK 5 compatible version? ... No, I know. However, I
> still have to provide JDK 1.3 (or at least 1.4) compatible software. And
> this does not simply mean to compile code, it also means to run it!
>
> This will more or less lead to the situation, where I have to drop the
> complete Gentoo Java packages (except the JDK's themselves) and install
> everything else myself using the binaries.
>
> - Jörg
>
There is no pressing need to start building 1.5 bytecode as long as an
application compiles with 1.4 but if an application uses 1.5 features we
will not be backporting the code to work with 1.4 which would be
required for you to be able to run applications with 1.4. If you want to
maintain such ebuilds we can give you access to an overlay where you can
keep 1.4 compatible ebuilds around. The Java team doesn't have that much
man power and it's better used towards other things than keeping 1.4
functional with our hundreds of packages.
Regards,
Petteri
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-java] Deprecating JDK 1.4
2008-07-13 10:01 [gentoo-java] Deprecating JDK 1.4 Krzysiek Pawlik
[not found] ` <d61c57300807130324o5446afaah3b94e23ada11e8ce@mail.gmail.com>
2008-07-14 21:16 ` Jörg Schaible
@ 2008-07-16 17:38 ` Petteri Räty
2008-07-16 17:59 ` Krzysiek Pawlik
2 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread
From: Petteri Räty @ 2008-07-16 17:38 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Gentoo Java
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Krzysiek Pawlik kirjoitti:
>
> Hi,
>
> As I mentioned in the thread "[gentoo-java] caucho-services, burlap and
> hessian mess" I'm going to deprecate 1.4 - there was not much feedback
> on that topic ;)
>
> Current plan is:
>
> * migrate 5 remaining packages to generation 2 (or if masked remove
> them) - current list (as of today):
> http://dev.gentoo.org/~nelchael/java-generation-2/not-migrated-20080713
Yes that is the right place to start.
> * make generation 1 eclasses die instead of QA violation warning
Agreed.
> * change eclasses that have >?=virtual/jdk-1.4.* (java-gnome and
> php4_4-sapi)
java-gnome eclass is not used by anything so just best to make that one
die and you will want to check with the php people if that eclass is
needed any more either
> * rev bump every package with >?=virtual/jdk-1.4.*:
> * if package has soft dependency on 1.4 (>=1.4) - raise it to 1.4 -
> that's the easy case
> * if package has hard dependency on 1.4 (=1.4) - try to compile with
> 1.5, eventually patch it to work
> * if package refuses to compile/work with >1.4 - package.mask, slate
> for removal
Yeah just check for reverse deps.
> * get all rev bumped packages stabilized (if package has stable version
> in corresponding SLOT)
> * remove old versions of touched packages
> * remove java5 use flag
> * start dropping generation 1 from the tree:
> * make old eclasses a stub - so unmerge works
I would just leave a dying version because of all the ebuilds around.
> * remove generation 1 bits from JDK ebuilds
> * package.mask java-config-1*
> * remove virtual/jdk-1.4.1
There's also a couple of other things to do with our tools so please
talk with me before doing this step.
>
> I'm also asking everybody for help: when the process starts please start
> fixing ebuilds too - changing 370 packages is not an easy task to take
> alone.
>
I don't see why you would need to change this many packages.
Regards,
Petteri
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread* Re: [gentoo-java] Deprecating JDK 1.4
2008-07-16 17:38 ` [gentoo-java] " Petteri Räty
@ 2008-07-16 17:59 ` Krzysiek Pawlik
2008-07-16 18:09 ` Petteri Räty
0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread
From: Krzysiek Pawlik @ 2008-07-16 17:59 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Gentoo Java
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1584 bytes --]
Petteri Räty wrote:
>> * change eclasses that have >?=virtual/jdk-1.4.* (java-gnome and
>> php4_4-sapi)
>
> java-gnome eclass is not used by anything so just best to make that one
> die and you will want to check with the php people if that eclass is
> needed any more either
Ok.
>> * rev bump every package with >?=virtual/jdk-1.4.*:
>> * if package has soft dependency on 1.4 (>=1.4) - raise it to 1.4 -
>> that's the easy case
>> * if package has hard dependency on 1.4 (=1.4) - try to compile
>> with 1.5, eventually patch it to work
>> * if package refuses to compile/work with >1.4 - package.mask,
>> slate for removal
>
> Yeah just check for reverse deps.
Sure - that's the important (and time consuming) part.
>> * get all rev bumped packages stabilized (if package has stable
>> version in corresponding SLOT)
>> * remove old versions of touched packages
>> * remove java5 use flag
>> * start dropping generation 1 from the tree:
>> * make old eclasses a stub - so unmerge works
>
> I would just leave a dying version because of all the ebuilds around.
Possible too, but not in unmerge code path - better to keep unmerge working.
>> * remove generation 1 bits from JDK ebuilds
>> * package.mask java-config-1*
>> * remove virtual/jdk-1.4.1
>
> There's also a couple of other things to do with our tools so please
> talk with me before doing this step.
Sure.
--
Krzysiek Pawlik <nelchael at gentoo.org> key id: 0xBC555551
desktop-misc, java, apache, ppc, vim, kernel, python...
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2009-03-30 18:19 UTC | newest]
Thread overview: 13+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed
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2008-07-13 10:01 [gentoo-java] Deprecating JDK 1.4 Krzysiek Pawlik
[not found] ` <d61c57300807130324o5446afaah3b94e23ada11e8ce@mail.gmail.com>
2008-07-13 10:31 ` [gentoo-java] " Krzysiek Pawlik
2008-07-14 21:16 ` Jörg Schaible
2008-07-16 12:15 ` Krzysiek Pawlik
2008-07-16 17:33 ` Petteri Räty
2008-07-16 17:57 ` Krzysiek Pawlik
2008-07-17 19:50 ` [gentoo-java] " Jörg Schaible
2008-07-19 17:06 ` Petteri Räty
2008-07-16 17:38 ` [gentoo-java] " Petteri Räty
2008-07-16 17:59 ` Krzysiek Pawlik
2008-07-16 18:09 ` Petteri Räty
2009-03-26 18:41 ` Serkan Kaba
2009-03-30 18:16 ` Petteri Räty
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