[gentoo-java] Deprecating JDK 1.4

[gentoo-java] Deprecating JDK 1.4

[Krzysiek Pawlik]

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Hi,

As I mentioned in the thread "[gentoo-java] caucho-services, burlap and hessian 
mess" I'm going to deprecate 1.4 - there was not much feedback on that topic ;)

Current plan is:

  * migrate 5 remaining packages to generation 2 (or if masked remove them) - 
current list (as of today): 
http://dev.gentoo.org/~nelchael/java-generation-2/not-migrated-20080713
  * make generation 1 eclasses die instead of QA violation warning
  * change eclasses that have >?=virtual/jdk-1.4.* (java-gnome and php4_4-sapi)
  * rev bump every package with >?=virtual/jdk-1.4.*:
    * if package has soft dependency on 1.4 (>=1.4) - raise it to 1.4 - that's 
the easy case
    * if package has hard dependency on 1.4 (=1.4) - try to compile with 1.5, 
eventually patch it to work
    * if package refuses to compile/work with >1.4 - package.mask, slate for removal
  * get all rev bumped packages stabilized (if package has stable version in 
corresponding SLOT)
  * remove old versions of touched packages
  * remove java5 use flag
  * start dropping generation 1 from the tree:
    * make old eclasses a stub - so unmerge works
    * remove generation 1 bits from JDK ebuilds
    * package.mask java-config-1*
  * remove virtual/jdk-1.4.1
  * clean up dev-java/* - prune old versions (for example currently: 
java-config-wrapper - 3 stable versions in same SLOT)

What that huge change means to us? As you may (or may not) know Sun is stopping 
support for 1.4 soon, so we need to move away from it. Also if we focus on 
modern JDK versions (1.5, 1.6 and soon 1.7) we'll have less work, as most major 
changes occurred between 1.4 and 1.5. Basically whatever is 1.5 compatible 
should work with 1.6 and 1.7.

Note: that does NOT mean that I'm proposing to remove JDK 1.4 from the tree - it 
will stay to people who need it can still use it. On the other hand few months 
after Sun EOLs 1.4 we *should* consider dropping 1.4 JDKs.

If there are no objections I'm going to start the big changes around Friday (18 
July). I'm planning also to get a heads-up announcement in GMN for July.

I'm also asking everybody for help: when the process starts please start fixing 
ebuilds too - changing 370 packages is not an easy task to take alone.

Jean-Noël: Eclipse is quite special case here: as 3.2* requires both: 1.4 and 
1.5 - could you start the process of stabilizing 3.3.1.1-r1 ?

-- 
Krzysiek Pawlik   <nelchael at gentoo.org>   key id: 0xBC555551
desktop-misc, java, apache, ppc, vim, kernel, python...

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[gentoo-java] Re: Deprecating JDK 1.4

[Krzysiek Pawlik]

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Jean-Noël Rivasseau wrote:
> Dropping support for 1.4 is good news for me :)

:)

> Wrt Eclipse, I hope to stabilize 3.4, not 3.3 as it has several
> problems / bugs that I did not have time to look at. My current
> development time is focused on 3.4 as I unfortunately dont have time
> for both. I am making good progress thanks to geki's work in
> particular, so I hope to have 3.4 packaged and running in about one
> month.

Could you send it to gentoo-java@ also? As it's a public list. That should not 
interfere with plan to deprecate 1.4 as it'll take a more than a month to do it 
anyway.

-- 
Krzysiek Pawlik   <nelchael at gentoo.org>   key id: 0xBC555551
desktop-misc, java, apache, ppc, vim, kernel, python...


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[gentoo-java] Re: Deprecating JDK 1.4

[Jörg Schaible]

Hi Pawlik,

Krzysiek Pawlik wrote:

[snip]

> What that huge change means to us? As you may (or may not) know Sun is
> stopping support for 1.4 soon, so we need to move away from it. Also if we
> focus on modern JDK versions (1.5, 1.6 and soon 1.7) we'll have less work,
> as most major changes occurred between 1.4 and 1.5. Basically whatever is
> 1.5 compatible should work with 1.6 and 1.7.
> 
> Note: that does NOT mean that I'm proposing to remove JDK 1.4 from the
> tree - it will stay to people who need it can still use it. On the other
> hand few months after Sun EOLs 1.4 we *should* consider dropping 1.4 JDKs.

Please note, that Sun is still supporting JDK 1.3 for *paying* customers. It
will take years till Sun is completely dropping 1.4:

http://www.sun.com/software/javaseforbusiness/support.jsp

Therefore I still have even 1.3 ebuilds on my local tree. And I had to
download and use the official ant binaries to run it with 1.3. Dropping 1.4
means also that it is no longer possible to run Maven with its minimum JDK
requirement.

In Gentoo all is about choice, but this seem not to apply for Java
development. For me it gets unusable.

[snip]

- Jörg


-- 
gentoo-java@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-java] Re: Deprecating JDK 1.4

[Krzysiek Pawlik]

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Jörg Schaible wrote:
> Please note, that Sun is still supporting JDK 1.3 for *paying* customers. It
> will take years till Sun is completely dropping 1.4:
> 
> http://www.sun.com/software/javaseforbusiness/support.jsp

Yes, but the free Java world goes forward, plethora of projects use generics -
and they require >= 1.5 (or any other feature of JDK 1.5).

> Therefore I still have even 1.3 ebuilds on my local tree. And I had to
> download and use the official ant binaries to run it with 1.3. Dropping 1.4
> means also that it is no longer possible to run Maven with its minimum JDK
> requirement.

Yes, but VM which is running maven is not the same as VM for which the code is
generated (note -source and -target options of javac).

> In Gentoo all is about choice, but this seem not to apply for Java
> development. For me it gets unusable.

You're missing the point: the official tree (gentoo-x86) will require >=1.5,
*but*: if you install JDK 1.4 (or any other version) you can still use it for
your own software (including maven, ant and so on).

Also like I said - more and more things require 1.5, which means that all things
depending on them also need to be >= 1.5. For example: new hessian requires >=
1.5, which means that mx4j needs also to be switched to 1.5, which means we have
to switch anything depending on mx4j, and so on.

-- 
Krzysiek Pawlik   <nelchael at gentoo.org>   key id: 0xBC555551
desktop-misc, java, apache, ppc, vim, kernel, python...


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Re: [gentoo-java] Re: Deprecating JDK 1.4

[Petteri Räty]

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Krzysiek Pawlik kirjoitti:
> Jörg Schaible wrote:
>> Please note, that Sun is still supporting JDK 1.3 for *paying* 
>> customers. It
>> will take years till Sun is completely dropping 1.4:
>>
>> http://www.sun.com/software/javaseforbusiness/support.jsp
> 
> Yes, but the free Java world goes forward, plethora of projects use 
> generics -
> and they require >= 1.5 (or any other feature of JDK 1.5).
> 
>> Therefore I still have even 1.3 ebuilds on my local tree. And I had to
>> download and use the official ant binaries to run it with 1.3. 
>> Dropping 1.4
>> means also that it is no longer possible to run Maven with its minimum 
>> JDK
>> requirement.
> 
> Yes, but VM which is running maven is not the same as VM for which the 
> code is
> generated (note -source and -target options of javac).
> 
>> In Gentoo all is about choice, but this seem not to apply for Java
>> development. For me it gets unusable.
> 
> You're missing the point: the official tree (gentoo-x86) will require 
>  >=1.5,
> *but*: if you install JDK 1.4 (or any other version) you can still use 
> it for
> your own software (including maven, ant and so on).
> 
> Also like I said - more and more things require 1.5, which means that 
> all things
> depending on them also need to be >= 1.5. For example: new hessian 
> requires >=
> 1.5, which means that mx4j needs also to be switched to 1.5, which means 
> we have
> to switch anything depending on mx4j, and so on.
> 

I don't think we will be removing 1.4 JDKs from the main tree before Sun 
EOLs them. Even after that I think we will be keeping them around in the 
Java overlay. The point here is that we will end our support for using 
1.4 as the system VM and build VM when Sun EOLs it.

Regards,
Petteri


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Re: [gentoo-java] Deprecating JDK 1.4

[Petteri Räty]

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Krzysiek Pawlik kirjoitti:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> As I mentioned in the thread "[gentoo-java] caucho-services, burlap and 
> hessian mess" I'm going to deprecate 1.4 - there was not much feedback 
> on that topic ;)
> 
> Current plan is:
> 
>  * migrate 5 remaining packages to generation 2 (or if masked remove 
> them) - current list (as of today): 
> http://dev.gentoo.org/~nelchael/java-generation-2/not-migrated-20080713

Yes that is the right place to start.

>  * make generation 1 eclasses die instead of QA violation warning

Agreed.

>  * change eclasses that have >?=virtual/jdk-1.4.* (java-gnome and 
> php4_4-sapi)

java-gnome eclass is not used by anything so just best to make that one 
die and you will want to check with the php people if that eclass is 
needed any more either

>  * rev bump every package with >?=virtual/jdk-1.4.*:
>    * if package has soft dependency on 1.4 (>=1.4) - raise it to 1.4 - 
> that's the easy case
>    * if package has hard dependency on 1.4 (=1.4) - try to compile with 
> 1.5, eventually patch it to work
>    * if package refuses to compile/work with >1.4 - package.mask, slate 
> for removal

Yeah just check for reverse deps.

>  * get all rev bumped packages stabilized (if package has stable version 
> in corresponding SLOT)
>  * remove old versions of touched packages
>  * remove java5 use flag
>  * start dropping generation 1 from the tree:
>    * make old eclasses a stub - so unmerge works

I would just leave a dying version because of all the ebuilds around.

>    * remove generation 1 bits from JDK ebuilds
>    * package.mask java-config-1*
>  * remove virtual/jdk-1.4.1

There's also a couple of other things to do with our tools so please 
talk with me before doing this step.

> 
> I'm also asking everybody for help: when the process starts please start 
> fixing ebuilds too - changing 370 packages is not an easy task to take 
> alone.
> 

I don't see why you would need to change this many packages.

Regards,
Petteri



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Re: [gentoo-java] Re: Deprecating JDK 1.4

[Krzysiek Pawlik]

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Petteri Räty wrote:
> I don't think we will be removing 1.4 JDKs from the main tree before Sun 
> EOLs them. Even after that I think we will be keeping them around in the 
> Java overlay. The point here is that we will end our support for using 
> 1.4 as the system VM and build VM when Sun EOLs it.

I don't propose to remove JDK 1.4 from portage tree until something serious 
comes out and forces us to do so (like security bug).

-- 
Krzysiek Pawlik   <nelchael at gentoo.org>   key id: 0xBC555551
desktop-misc, java, apache, ppc, vim, kernel, python...


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Re: [gentoo-java] Deprecating JDK 1.4

[Krzysiek Pawlik]

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Petteri Räty wrote:
>>  * change eclasses that have >?=virtual/jdk-1.4.* (java-gnome and 
>> php4_4-sapi)
> 
> java-gnome eclass is not used by anything so just best to make that one 
> die and you will want to check with the php people if that eclass is 
> needed any more either

Ok.

>>  * rev bump every package with >?=virtual/jdk-1.4.*:
>>    * if package has soft dependency on 1.4 (>=1.4) - raise it to 1.4 - 
>> that's the easy case
>>    * if package has hard dependency on 1.4 (=1.4) - try to compile 
>> with 1.5, eventually patch it to work
>>    * if package refuses to compile/work with >1.4 - package.mask, 
>> slate for removal
> 
> Yeah just check for reverse deps.

Sure - that's the important (and time consuming) part.

>>  * get all rev bumped packages stabilized (if package has stable 
>> version in corresponding SLOT)
>>  * remove old versions of touched packages
>>  * remove java5 use flag
>>  * start dropping generation 1 from the tree:
>>    * make old eclasses a stub - so unmerge works
> 
> I would just leave a dying version because of all the ebuilds around.

Possible too, but not in unmerge code path - better to keep unmerge working.

>>    * remove generation 1 bits from JDK ebuilds
>>    * package.mask java-config-1*
>>  * remove virtual/jdk-1.4.1
> 
> There's also a couple of other things to do with our tools so please 
> talk with me before doing this step.

Sure.

-- 
Krzysiek Pawlik   <nelchael at gentoo.org>   key id: 0xBC555551
desktop-misc, java, apache, ppc, vim, kernel, python...


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Re: [gentoo-java] Deprecating JDK 1.4

[Petteri Räty]

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Krzysiek Pawlik kirjoitti:
>>
>> Yeah just check for reverse deps.
> 
> Sure - that's the important (and time consuming) part.
> 

Just use the proper tools and it's not that time consuming.

Regards,
Petteri


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[gentoo-java] Re: Re: Deprecating JDK 1.4

[Jörg Schaible]

Krzysiek Pawlik wrote:

> Jörg Schaible wrote:
>> Please note, that Sun is still supporting JDK 1.3 for *paying* customers.
>> It will take years till Sun is completely dropping 1.4:
>> 
>> http://www.sun.com/software/javaseforbusiness/support.jsp
> 
> Yes, but the free Java world goes forward, plethora of projects use
> generics - and they require >= 1.5 (or any other feature of JDK 1.5).
> 
>> Therefore I still have even 1.3 ebuilds on my local tree. And I had to
>> download and use the official ant binaries to run it with 1.3. Dropping
>> 1.4 means also that it is no longer possible to run Maven with its
>> minimum JDK requirement.
> 
> Yes, but VM which is running maven is not the same as VM for which the
> code is generated (note -source and -target options of javac).

Be sure, I found them some years ago.

>> In Gentoo all is about choice, but this seem not to apply for Java
>> development. For me it gets unusable.
> 
> You're missing the point: the official tree (gentoo-x86) will require
> >=1.5, *but*: if you install JDK 1.4 (or any other version) you can still
> use it for your own software (including maven, ant and so on).

Theoretically. At least in Gentoo. Using original binary distributions, it
is definitely possible.

> Also like I said - more and more things require 1.5, which means that all
> things depending on them also need to be >= 1.5. For example: new hessian
> requires >= 1.5, which means that mx4j needs also to be switched to 1.5,
> which means we have to switch anything depending on mx4j, and so on.

So, and where can I define then my minimum supported JDK version
(setting -source and -target)? Can I define that my system should be JDK
1.3 compatible - at least for all packages that support this (e.g.
commons-logging)? Will packages like mx4j slotted to have the last JDK 1.4
compatible and the JDK 5 compatible version? ... No, I know. However, I
still have to provide JDK 1.3 (or at least 1.4) compatible software. And
this does not simply mean to compile code, it also means to run it!

This will more or less lead to the situation, where I have to drop the
complete Gentoo Java packages (except the JDK's themselves) and install
everything else myself using the binaries.

- Jörg


 


-- 
gentoo-java@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-java] Re: Re: Deprecating JDK 1.4

[Petteri Räty]

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Jörg Schaible kirjoitti:
>
>> Also like I said - more and more things require 1.5, which means that all
>> things depending on them also need to be >= 1.5. For example: new hessian
>> requires >= 1.5, which means that mx4j needs also to be switched to 1.5,
>> which means we have to switch anything depending on mx4j, and so on.
> 
> So, and where can I define then my minimum supported JDK version
> (setting -source and -target)? Can I define that my system should be JDK
> 1.3 compatible - at least for all packages that support this (e.g.
> commons-logging)? Will packages like mx4j slotted to have the last JDK 1.4
> compatible and the JDK 5 compatible version? ... No, I know. However, I
> still have to provide JDK 1.3 (or at least 1.4) compatible software. And
> this does not simply mean to compile code, it also means to run it!
> 
> This will more or less lead to the situation, where I have to drop the
> complete Gentoo Java packages (except the JDK's themselves) and install
> everything else myself using the binaries.
> 
> - Jörg
> 

There is no pressing need to start building 1.5 bytecode as long as an 
application compiles with 1.4 but if an application uses 1.5 features we 
   will not be backporting the code to work with 1.4 which would be 
required for you to be able to run applications with 1.4. If you want to 
maintain such ebuilds we can give you access to an overlay where you can 
keep 1.4 compatible ebuilds around. The Java team doesn't have that much 
man power and it's better used towards other things than keeping 1.4 
functional with our hundreds of packages.

Regards,
Petteri


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Re: [gentoo-java] Deprecating JDK 1.4

[Serkan Kaba]

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Petteri Räty yazmış:
> Krzysiek Pawlik kirjoitti:
>>>
>>> Yeah just check for reverse deps.
>>
>> Sure - that's the important (and time consuming) part.
>>
> 
> Just use the proper tools and it's not that time consuming.
> 
> Regards,
> Petteri
> 
We now have it EOLed and a security bug[1] is reported. What's the
status here?

1: http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=263810
- --
Sincerely,
Serkan KABA
Gentoo Developer
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Re: [gentoo-java] Deprecating JDK 1.4

[Petteri Räty]

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Serkan Kaba wrote:
> Petteri Räty yazm1_:
>> Krzysiek Pawlik kirjoitti:
>>>> Yeah just check for reverse deps.
>>> Sure - that's the important (and time consuming) part.
>>>
>> Just use the proper tools and it's not that time consuming.
> 
>> Regards,
>> Petteri
> 
> We now have it EOLed and a security bug[1] is reported. What's the
> status here?
> 
> 1: http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=263810

I think the easiest approach is to modify java-config to support VMs
marked as being build only. Then in time fix everything that only builds
with 1.4 and nuke 1.4 from the tree.

Regards,
Petteri


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