Re: [gentoo-java] Want to affect how JSRs are developed?

[Dalibor Topic <robilad@kaffe.org>]

Dalibor Topic wrote:

> How about that?

I should explain why the tone I used was rather harsh & cynical (and 
apologize for it).

The suggestion to join and make noise inside the JCP is not realistic 
for a couple of reasons:

* the JCP has no venue in which such noise can be made

* the JCP has two executive committees (ECs), one for mobile Java, one 
for the rest, which more or less serves as the playground for big 
politics inside the JCP between organizations.

* The ECs get to decide, behind closed doors, what the next version of 
the JCP will look like.

* i.e. unless you are on the EC of the JCP *right now*, you have no say 
in the matter, no matter if you join the JCP tomorrow and sign off NDAs 
or not.

* other than being able to vote off a small part of the EC members in 
the yearly elections,
the membership has no way to formally influence the direction where the 
JCP is going.

* so, other than joining in droves in order to kick out the EC 
establishment, there is nothing that joining the JCP would achieve.

* and the success of that would be rather questionable ... one can't 
force organisations like IBM, Apache, Sun, etc. to commit to 100% 
transparency. They'll simply move somewhere else to make their deals.

* no one can force the spec leads to do the right things, even if the 
whole EC was replaced instantly.

In practice, the current JCP system allows the spec leads to run a 
perfectly transparent JSR, with an open source implementation, TCK and 
specs without clickthoughs, like Doug Lea did for the concurrency JSR. 
The problem is that only a handful of spec leads are able to make such 
things happen.

Fortunately, there has been a recent strong trend among spec leads to 
work towards transparency, though, and in general there has been a trend 
towards open source RIs. I see the current results of the java.net poll 
as a confirmation for those spec leads that they are moving in the right 
direction, and I'm very happy to see them lead by example, and work on 
turning the system around from the inside.

I don't think that the confrontational 'let's make noise inside the JCP' 
approach would work for us who aren't on the EC, and that's pretty much 
everyone.

What works, in my experience, is changing the environment from the 
outside in which the JCP EC and its members operate, such that their 
interests and the interests of the Java & GNU/Linux communites are more 
closely aligned, and encouraging good behaviour.

It would help if more JCP members started leading by example, and made 
sure that all the JSRs they participate in have open source RIs, open 
source TCKs, etc. In that regard ASF could have a role to play inside 
the JCP in assisting companies that have close ties to it via its 
membership in the transition, and providing them with advice & guidance 
on opening up their JSRs.

The ASF could also try to make 'noise' inside the system, but I fail to 
see how that could lead to a useful outcome. I'd rather suggest that the 
ASF gets going working on creating open source TCKs for all RIs 
implemented under its spec leadership (the whole XML & WS-* stuff, 
Tomcat, and all that).

cheers,
dalibor topic
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