20:00 -!- nelchael changed the topic of #gentoo-java to: Java on Gentoo Linux | Java Team meeting - right now, agenda: http://tinyurl.com/gq368 | http://java.gentoo.org/ | This is a low traffic channel, please be patient | For Java issues not related to Gentoo, please refer to ##java | Java Bugs: http://tinyurl.com/n9qb | http://overlays.gentoo.org/svn/proj/java/ | Java 1.5 support is here! http://tinyurl.com/fqsdj
20:01 <@      nichoj> ah, guess its about that time
20:01 <@       wltjr> guess it's meeting time, all jokes aside
20:01 <@      nichoj> karltk, zx: ping
20:01  * nichoj starts looking for stray javaites
20:02 <@       wltjr> I would like to welcome all to the Java Meeting, and with that I had it over to our astute leader, nichoj
20:03  * wltjr starts a round of applause
20:03  * nelchael clap, clap, clap
20:03 <@  Betelgeuse> \o/ \o/
20:04 <@     sanchan> unlord: still 403 :-) refreshing :-)
20:05 <@      nichoj> alright, let us start with a quick attendence
20:05 <@      nichoj> I'll skip over peeps I know are alive already
20:05 <@      nichoj> geki_: ping
20:05  * wltjr checks his own pulse
20:05 <      unlord_> sanchan: I haven't even left for the county fair yet
20:05 <@      nichoj> Caster: ping
20:06 <@       wltjr> unlord_: he was just checking since you are in a time warp :)
20:06 <@     sanchan> unlord: just joking
20:07 <@       wltjr> if you are present and have not spoken in the past few minutes or etc, please say something or hold up your hand for attendance :)
20:07 <@    nelchael> I've updated the agenda to include a list of ebuilds with 'eant ... || die ...'
20:07 <@  GurliGebis> :P
20:07 <@       wltjr> or prepare to be kicked from the channel :o
20:07 <@      nichoj> well, while we give the other minions time to get here, I suppose we can start with the 'personel update' action. I'll start er off
20:07 <@       wltjr> just kiddin about the boot
20:08 <@      nichoj> basically, I've been working on smoothing the rough edges of the new system
20:08 <@       wltjr> nichoj: is there a command to ping everyone on the channel?
20:08 <@      nichoj> with the intent of getting it ready for stabilization
20:08 <@      nichoj> wltjr: not really
20:08 <@      nichoj> !herd java
20:08 <       jeeves> nichoj: (java) betelgeuse, compnerd, gurligebis, karltk, nelchael, nichoj, sanchan, wltjr, zx
20:09 <@      nichoj> in particular, I've been hacking java-config-1 a lot, learned python while I was at it ;)
20:09 <@      nichoj> things are a lot saner now
20:10 <@       wltjr> is there any estimated time for the EOL of java-config-1 or shall it always remain?
20:10 <@      nichoj> like, you only can use 1.4 JDKs with java-config-1. JREs don't get registered with it, neither do 1.5+ JDKs
20:10 <@      nichoj> wltjr: it will remain as long as there are generation-1 ebuilds
20:10 <@      nichoj> so, basically everything in the tree would have to be migrated, and then a migrated version would have to be stablized for each package/slot
20:11 <@      nichoj> as you might imagine, it might take awhile for that to happen
20:11 <@       wltjr> nichoj: are new packages allowed to be gen 1 then? is there a time frame for a gen 1 package freeze?
20:11 <@    nelchael> my turn: getting resin up to date, splitting Sun's JWSDP into smaller pieces, taking care of several ebuilds, general migration stuff
20:11 <@      nichoj> wltjr: we shouldn't be adding new ebuilds which are using generation-1
20:11 <@    nelchael> wltjr: they are not
20:12 <@      nichoj> I wasn't quite done ;)
20:12 <@    nelchael> nichoj: oops - had that line ready :] sorry
20:12 <@    nelchael> wltjr: repoman will (soon?) check for use of gen1 eclasses
20:12 <@      nichoj> and lastly, I've been poking at the eclasses, so that they are a bit more user friendly, guiding the user to what they should be doing when something goes wrong
20:13 <@      nichoj> for example, the error you get for generation-1 packages when VMHANDLE isn't present is a lot nicer now
20:13 <@      nichoj> of course, we still get people confused about what to do, but such is life :)
20:13 <@      nichoj> I'm done now ;)
20:14 <@      nichoj> nelchael: anything else to add?
20:14 <         gnul> quick question: what defines a generation-1 package?
20:14 <@    nelchael> nichoj: no - I'm taking care of several ebuilds, but help wherever I can
20:14 <@       wltjr> are there any time lines for the core java stuff, barring any major bugs or etc that would hold it back from being stabilized
20:14 <@    nelchael> gnul: java-* eclass - without -2, so java-pkg is gen1, java-pkg-2 is gen2
20:15 <@    nelchael> wltjr: we'll talk about that later - check the agenda
20:15 <@       wltjr> sry
20:15 <@      nichoj> nelchael: what type of time committment do you see yourself doing?
20:16 <@    nelchael> nichoj: I'm changing something usually on weekends or in work, so basicly few hours daily
20:17 <@      nichoj> nelchael: can you please try to be on irc during those times, please? ;)
20:17 <@    nelchael> nichoj: I try, but I can't use it too often in work
20:17 <@      nichoj> alrighty
20:18 <@      nichoj> if you don't have anything else, let us hear from the next person?
20:18 <@    nelchael> I'm done
20:18 <@  GurliGebis> I don't have anything
20:18 <@  Betelgeuse> robilad: Just in time for the java team meating ;D
20:19 <@       wltjr> GurliGebis: whatcha working on? guestimated time you can contribute routinely
20:19 <@  Betelgeuse> Well I could as well go next. ;D
20:19 <@      nichoj> ah, let us also welcome GurliGebis :) who will be helping out with migrating stuff
20:19 <@  GurliGebis> thanks :)
20:19 <@  GurliGebis> right now I'm waiting for a working version of TestNG from upstream
20:19  * wltjr hands GurliGebis: Hawaiian Lay
20:20 <@  GurliGebis> so I can get an ebuild written :)
20:21 <@      nichoj> GurliGebis: alrighty. how much time do you see yourself working on java stuff?
20:21 <      robilad> Betelgeuse: yo ;)
20:21 <@  GurliGebis> working on porting gentoo java stuff, or working with java in general? :)
20:22 <@       wltjr> GurliGebis:  gentoo stuff
20:22 <@      nichoj> as wltjr said
20:22 <@       wltjr> GurliGebis:  just a guestimate, you won't be held to it or etc
20:23 <@  GurliGebis> right now not so much, but I plan on starting out tomorrow actually :-)
20:23 <@  GurliGebis> haven't had much time yet for it
20:23 <@       wltjr> GurliGebis: couple of times a week? 2-3 hours or so per week?
20:23 <@  GurliGebis> nahh, more
20:24 <@       wltjr> GurliGebis:  24/7/365 :)
20:24 <@  GurliGebis> I plan on dedicating some time in the weekends :)
20:24 <@  GurliGebis> nahh
20:24 <@      nichoj> I think we get the idea :)
20:24 <@      nichoj> Betelgeuse: alright, let us have it :)
20:24 <@       wltjr> another weekend warrior :)
20:25 <@  Betelgeuse> Well it seems I am the "oldest" one around. ;D
20:25 <@  GurliGebis> but currently I write java code about 8 hours a day ;)
20:25 <@      nichoj> scary :)
20:25  * wltjr listens to the wisdom
20:25 <@  Betelgeuse> Any way I have this role play during the week of being an officer.
20:25  * nelchael goes to get some popcorn
20:25  * wltjr salutes
20:25 <@  Betelgeuse> Ends 05.01.2007. ;D
20:25 <@  Betelgeuse> Any way I have the weekends to do some stuff.
20:26  * nichoj marks down in calender
20:26 <@  Betelgeuse> I usually just look at the bugs list and do what seems like something easy to fix.
20:26  * wltjr pre-orders some champagne and beer
20:26 <@  Betelgeuse> Then I try to keep stuff like azureus up2date.
20:27 <@  Betelgeuse> That's about it atm. I have 18 minions btw. ;D
20:27 <@       wltjr> pimp
20:27 <@    nelchael> wltjr: check out my overlay for x11-themes/pimp-my-kde ;)
20:28  * wltjr looks for a pimp-my-gnome :(
20:28  * nelchael stabs gnome
20:28 <@      nichoj> btw, I'm keeping notes here: https://overlays.gentoo.org/proj/java/wiki/September_2006_Meeting_Notes
20:28 <@    nelchael> nichoj: ROTFL
20:28 <@    nelchael> "old man betelgeuse"
20:28 <@      nichoj> :)
20:29 <@    nelchael> can you add Caster too ?
20:29  * wltjr welcomes Caster with a Hawaiian Lei
20:29 <@      nichoj> he's not responding atm, so....
20:29 <@    nelchael> is it possible for more than one person to edit it?
20:29 <@    nelchael> Caster: ping?
20:29 <@      nichoj> probably
20:29 <@      nichoj> Betelgeuse: is that all?
20:30 <@       wltjr> Betelgeuse: sir
20:30 <@  Betelgeuse> nichoj: Yup.
20:30 <@  Betelgeuse> Attention! ;D
20:30 <@       wltjr> :)
20:30 <@  Betelgeuse> wltjr: at ease
20:30  * wltjr slouches
20:30 <@      nichoj> wltjr: gee, I'm hesitant to ask, but what have you been up to? :)
20:30 <@      Caster> hello
20:30 <@      Caster> sorry for delay :)
20:30 <     christel> heey Caster!
20:30  * wltjr hands Caster the mike
20:30 <@      nichoj> Caster: no worries, we'll still just catching up
20:31 <@    nelchael> Caster: it's ok, good to have you here
20:31 <@      Caster> I will need to catch up too :)
20:31 <@    nelchael> Caster: https://overlays.gentoo.org/proj/java/wiki/September_2006_Meeting_Notes
20:31 <@      nichoj> while you do so, lets hear from the illustrious wltjr
20:31 <@       wltjr> Caster: would you like a moment or two then to compose your thoughts ;0
20:31 <@       wltjr> ok ok
20:31 <     christel> oops, sorry for talking in the middle of your meeting :o
20:31 <@    nelchael> wltjr: tomcat-addict? ;)
20:32 <@       wltjr> sooo, after learning about the Tomcat nightmares ;) I will be also taking over maintaining servletapi and jasper packages, in conjunction with Tomcat
20:32 <@    nelchael> christel: cool - you'll be listed under 'Other' ;) on https://overlays.gentoo.org/proj/java/wiki/September_2006_Meeting_Notes
20:32 <     christel> lol
20:32 <@       wltjr> since jasper and servletapi use Tomcat's sources
20:32 <@       wltjr> unfortunately I have been short on time, but that should improve a bit shortly
20:33 <@       wltjr> enough to give me like 1-2 hours for Gentoo luv per day ideally :), but that depends on if I have to provide help to Tomcat users during the day for what ever reason :)
20:33 <@       wltjr> I would also like to help sanitize our jdbc drivers, and etc, starting with Jaybird :) for firebird since it was my very first ebuild even before Tomcat, almost 1yr before hitting tree ;(
20:34 <@       wltjr> specifically coming up with a naming scheme for the jdbc drivers, which nichoj and I have briefly discussed here and there over time
20:34 <@       wltjr> I am pretty package focused right now, I can help others a bit by emerging packages on amd64, can't spend to much time testing them for usability or etc unless it's a few minutes
20:35 <@       wltjr> however, you won't see my participating in the core gentoo java stuff till I get more time, sorry bout that, tomcat is a time killer
20:35 <@       wltjr> once i get past Tomcat and etc I would also like to contribute to if not take over Netbeans, as it does not have a maintainer or much love for quite some time
20:36 <@    nelchael> !meta netbeans
20:36 <@       wltjr> for any interested there was a Netbeans 5.5 beta I started hacking on in migration overlay
20:36 <       jeeves> nelchael: Package: dev-util/netbeans Herd: dev-tools, java Maintainer: dev-tools, java Description: NetBeans is dedicated to providing rock solid software development products (NetBeans IDE, NetBeans Platform) that address the needs of developers, users and the businesses who rely on NetBeans as a basis for their products. NetBeans is also a vibrant community where people from just about any country you can think of, have the ability ask quest
20:36 <@       wltjr> pretty sure that about covers it, aside from my unexplainable obnoxious behaviour, which I blame entirely on SpanKY's teachings :)
20:37 <@      nichoj> lol
20:37 <@       wltjr> oh yeah, forgot about Tomcat connectors
20:37 <@       wltjr> will be taking over mod_jk as well, and looking into mod_ajp_proxy or etc for apache 2.2, pretty much anything to do with Tomcat, will involve me at some point
20:38  * wltjr goes off to cry
20:38 <@      nichoj> :)
20:38 <@      nichoj> alrighty, let us here what's up in the world of the newly minted Caster
20:38 <@      Caster> wow this was quite a confession
20:38  * nelchael goes to cvs rm -f tomcat to cheer wltjr up
20:38 <@       wltjr> am I clean of all my sins now ;)
20:39  * wltjr YELLS Hey Priest, I don't swing that way, get your hands off me
20:39  * nichoj rolls his eyes
20:39 <@       wltjr> what is SpanKY doing in a confessional
20:39 <@       wltjr> Caster: plz take the freakin mike
20:39 <@      nichoj> Caster: for our sake, please :)
20:39 <@    nelchael> Caster: save us!
20:39 < predatorfrea> Could I prod someone to add a categories file to the gcj overlay and migrated overlay?
20:40 < predatorfrea> That way I can sync it with paludis and not have it go boom :)
20:40 <@  Betelgeuse> predatorfreak: geki_
20:40 <@    nelchael> predatorfreak: later -> yes, now -> no.
20:40 <@      Caster> okay so first thanks for the warm welcome :) I hope I will be useful and breaking stuff as little as possible :P
20:40 <@       wltjr> predatorfreak: after meeting plz ;)
20:40 < predatorfrea> wltjr: Didn't know there was a meeting :)
20:40 <@  Betelgeuse> predatorfreak: no problem ;D
20:40 <@    nelchael> predatorfreak: /topic ?
20:40 <@      Caster> I guess I will continue the work on ant stuff, maybe take it as maintainer?
20:41  * wltjr quietly points towards topic
20:41 < predatorfrea> nelchael: I'm blind :P
20:41 <@    nelchael> predatorfreak: don't worry - I'm too ;)
20:41 <@      Caster> and also solving bugs, porting stuff to generation 2, improving java-config/eclasses with nichoj... as usual :)
20:41  * unlord_ lurks
20:41 <@  Betelgeuse> Caster: Well I don't see ant being complex enough to warrant to a designated maintainer.
20:42 <@  Betelgeuse> Of course you can be the one who always does the work on it. ;D
20:42 <@       wltjr> Caster: but there are many more packages, I am sure we can find a few for you :)
20:42 <@      Caster> okay
20:42 <     christel> nelchael: should list me as official java team groupie *nods* since i admire you guys loads for being such a wicked team
20:43 <@  GurliGebis> ahh, christel, there you are :)
20:43 <@    nelchael> christel: ROTFL.... let me get up from floor first
20:43 <@      Caster> ant is now 20 packages instead of two :)
20:43 <@      nichoj> Caster: so how much time do you think you'll be hacking?
20:43 <@       wltjr> christel: nichoj, Betelguese will be signing autographs after the meeting :)
20:43 <     christel> GurliGebis: im still trying to track down a useable copy for you! :)
20:43 <@  GurliGebis> thanks :)
20:43 <     christel> lol
20:44 <@  GurliGebis> :)
20:44 <@  Betelgeuse> Caster: Probably should think about having a separate category for them then. ;D
20:44 <@    nelchael> Caster: so maybe instead of ant maintainer, all-things-ant-related maintainer?
20:44 <@      Caster> yeah
20:44 <@    nelchael> Betelgeuse: check my mail about splitting dev-java ;)
20:44  * nichoj adds that to the agenda
20:44 <@      Caster> nichoj: 1-2 hours/day is fine I guess, probably not as much time as there was during holidays
20:44 <@    nelchael> nichoj++
20:45 <@      nichoj> Caster: alrighty
20:46 <@      nichoj> sanchan: still around?
20:46 <@  Betelgeuse> nichoj: Probably should add the FOSS java stack as my specialty as I seem to be the only one looking after that stuff atm.
20:46 <@       wltjr> sanchan: leave her alone, she is sick ;) we would like to hear from ya when you have time :)
20:46 <@     sanchan> nichoj : yes
20:46 <@      Caster> Betelgeuse: don't forget geki
20:47 <@     sanchan> I'm here
20:47 <@      nichoj> sanchan: alright, let us here it :)
20:47 <@     sanchan> well
20:47 <@  Betelgeuse> Caster: yeah, of course
20:47 <@     sanchan> I planned to continue the porting of tinyos 1.x on portage
20:47 <@  Betelgeuse> Caster: I mean maintaining to stuff already in portage.
20:47 <@     sanchan> most of the remaining ebuilds are java packages
20:48 <@     sanchan> one of them is a branch of jython
20:48 <@      Caster> right
20:48 <@     sanchan> There are requests for porting tinyos 2.x too
20:49 <@     sanchan> I'm usually away during the weekends
20:49 <@     sanchan> but I usually have 1 -2 hours /day  for gentoo as a whole
20:50 <@     sanchan> most of the time reporting bugs...
20:50 <@     sanchan> I'm working of beecrypt ebuild, it need some java lovin
20:50 <@     sanchan> tinyos need also to be ported to other jdk than ibm one.
20:51 <@     sanchan> rxtx package can be a good candidate for solving most of the issues
20:51 <@     sanchan> I'm a very slow developer
20:51 <@     sanchan> so don't expect an high commit rate
20:52 <@      nichoj> that is fine
20:52 <@      nichoj> sanchan: anything else to add?
20:53 <@     sanchan> mmm I think I can take a look at bugs assigne  to java team and try to do what I can
20:53 <@     sanchan> and test java ebuilds under x86 and amd64
20:53 <@     sanchan> not much more to say
20:53 <@      nichoj> good deal
20:53 <@      nichoj> well, I think that's everyone that's alive at the moment
20:53 <@    nelchael> so.. who's missing?
20:53 <@    nelchael> karltk, zx .. ?
20:53 <@      nichoj> karltk, zx, compnerd
20:54 <@  Betelgeuse> The mummies. ;D
20:54 <@      nichoj> compnerd's online now, but he never comes in here anymore, it seems
20:54 <@      nichoj> unlord_: still alive?
20:55 <@  Betelgeuse> nichoj: Oh yes, I forgot to mention that I am a Gentoo approved recruiter now. ;D
20:55 <@    nelchael> christel: so you're now The Official Java Team Groupie (TM)
20:55 <@      nichoj> Betelgeuse: very cool
20:55 <@       wltjr> christel: plz recruit other groups with no morals
20:55 <@       wltjr> s/groups/groupies
20:55 <@    nelchael> !seen ali_bush
20:55 <       jeeves> ali_bush (n=chatzill@203-173-178-130.bliink.ihug.co.nz) was last seen quitting from #gentoo-java 1 day, 7 hours, 10 minutes ago stating ("Chatzilla 0.9.75 [Firefox 1.5.0.6/2006072814]").
20:56 <     christel> :D
20:56 <@      nichoj> well, I suppose we can move on with the agenda
20:57 <@      nichoj> please update the agenda with archs you have access to
20:57 <@  GurliGebis> nichoj, link to agenda?
20:57 <@      nichoj> https://overlays.gentoo.org/proj/java/wiki/September_2006_Meeting_Outline
20:58 <@      nichoj> we should be golden with x86, since I'd imagine everyone has x86
20:58 <     christel> mips, ppc, x86, sparc and alpha
20:58 <@      nichoj> amd64 should be pretty good too
20:58 <@  GurliGebis> thats all I have access to
20:58 <     christel> (if you need me to ever test something, i can so totally do that for you since im a official groupie)
20:58 <@      nichoj> ppc and ppc64 has been seriously lacking recently
20:58 <@      Caster> arches go up in developers list or down ?
20:59 <@      nichoj> fortunately, nelchael and I have recently acquired mac hardware
20:59 <@       wltjr> someone on -dev was trying to get my to work on hppa also
20:59 <@       wltjr> something about giving me access to some hppa server or etc?
20:59 <@      nichoj> he got a G4 (ppc), and I got G5 (ppc and ppc64)
20:59 <@  GurliGebis> I have x86-fbsd
20:59 <@      nichoj> I was about to mention that
20:59 <@  GurliGebis> could you add that? (don't want to create a user right now)
21:00 <@       wltjr> I don't  think I have time, so anyone interested in hppa, I believe there is a gentoo hppa dev server, you can get access to as a gentoo dev
21:00 <@      nichoj> but, we should be able to get access to other archs that we (gentoo) has access, ie ia64
21:00 <@      nichoj> sparc should be probably be dropped for now, since there isn't a sane jdk at the moment
21:00 <@      nichoj> GurliGebis: head to #gentoo-overlays, and I'll get them to give you an account :)
21:00 <@  GurliGebis> not right now
21:01 <@  GurliGebis> a bit busy with a few things
21:01 <@  GurliGebis> will do later
21:01 <@      nichoj> fair enough. I just requested it. you shuld hear from someone at some point
21:01 <@  GurliGebis> :)
21:02 <@      nichoj> but since we are talking about archs... something that's been troublesome is that arch ends up lagging way behind ~arch
21:02  * Caster goes to read -dev in fear what was made up in the welcome mail :P
21:02 <@      nichoj> my guess is that's a result of not having enough peeps, and the ones we do most likely run ~arch
21:02 <@      nichoj> I run ~arch everywhere I do anything for java, for example
21:03 <@      nichoj> so, I was thinking we should try to do something like arch-testers
21:03 <@    nelchael> nichoj: I've got over 10 servers with java - all x86
21:03 <@      nichoj> or arch-testers who specialize in java
21:03 <@  GurliGebis> :)
21:03 <@  Betelgeuse> nichoj: helps, but the what I do is to always look at the keywords when touching a package to see if I should file a stabilization request.
21:04 <@      nichoj> Betelgeuse: of course, that is good
21:04 <@      nichoj> I mean more like people that are specifically looking out to see what should get stablized
21:05 <@  Betelgeuse> nichoj: I have tried to advertise that to our users in the past with little success.
21:05 <@  Betelgeuse> nichoj: Well maybe it will have better success now. ;D
21:05 <@      nichoj> we can hope :)
21:05 <@      nichoj> that starts leading into how to get more people involved, but we'll talk about that in a bit
21:06 <@      nichoj> without any further ado, let us get talking about the new java system
21:06 <@    nelchael> we should decide when we start stabilizing new generation core packages
21:06 <@      Caster> nooooooow!
21:06 <@      nichoj> of course
21:07 <@    nelchael> Caster: no
21:07 <@      nichoj> before that, I think we want to figure out if there's anything that needs to be done before we want to stablize
21:07 <@    nelchael> a lot of tests
21:07 <@      Caster> :(
21:07 <@       wltjr> yeah i was going to ask earlier
21:07 <@      nichoj> I have one more release of java-config-1, java-config-2, and java-config-wrapper to do first
21:07 <@      nichoj> should get to those tonight
21:07 <@    nelchael> I've added gen2 to package.keywords on two servers - the rest is x86 - everything works
21:07 <@       wltjr> are new features going into the core gen2 java stuff or is that at a freeze?
21:07 <@    nelchael> but it has to be tested on a lot more configurations
21:07 <@      nichoj> so, on the short end, it would be at least 30 days from those releases
21:07 <@       wltjr> aside from bug fixes, or refinement for usability
21:08 <@    nelchael> 14/oct ?
21:08 <@    nelchael> as a start of stabilizing ?
21:08 <@      nichoj> the only thing I still want to improve is the upgrade guide and user guide
21:08 <@      nichoj> that's a good date to shoot for
21:08 <@       wltjr> ok, so there are no new features or etc being added
21:08 <@    nelchael> it's a saturday, so everyone of us will have some time
21:08 <@    nelchael> wltjr: yes
21:08 <@  Betelgeuse> nichoj: The jdk.conf file is still should be documented
21:08 <@       wltjr> just documentation, testing and refinement of the new core
21:09 <@    nelchael> wltjr: yes, and migration of ebuilds to gen2
21:09 <@      nichoj> well, ideally, I want to get the bare minimum packages we need to stablize
21:09 <@       wltjr> nelchael: sure, but migration of the ebuilds does not really pertain to stabilization of the core right?
21:09 <@      nichoj> ie, the 'core', and jdks
21:09 <@       wltjr> since the goal behind the core is to be pretty 100% for gen 2 use, but 100% for gen 1 stuff in tree already
21:10 <@      nichoj> and any packages that _need_ to be stablized too for things to continue working
21:10 <@    nelchael> wltjr: no, but if a lot of packages still is not migrated users won't benefit from it too much
21:10 <@    nelchael> nichoj: yes: the core first
21:10 <@       wltjr> nelchael: true, but we can't stick core + packages into tree, so it's core first
21:10 <@    nelchael> so one gets stable JDK
21:10 <@    nelchael> wltjr: yes
21:10 <@      nichoj> violently agreeing here I think :)
21:10 <@       wltjr> nelchael: and when core goes into tree, it's only working with gen 1 stuff, so if gen 2 ebuilds are not stablized or finalized etc, that's fine they won't be in the stable tree anyway
21:10 <@    nelchael> maybe we should write what 'core' is in notes?
21:11 <@    nelchael> wltjr: yeap :)
21:11 <@      nichoj> it's the set of packages in the package.keywords listing
21:11 <@       wltjr> nelchael: sure, because it seems like the core should be pretty close if not ready ow
21:11 <@    nelchael> nichoj: ok
21:11 <@       wltjr> more so with nichoj: java-config-1 refinements
21:11 <@      nichoj> we should be good with refines in the code, I think
21:12 <@      nichoj> like I said, should be releasing those tonight
21:12 <@       wltjr> so is oct 14th the target date?
21:12 <@    nelchael> so after core is stable: if, for example resin, is to be stabilized - with it will few other packages - we should stablilize what is needed
21:12 <@    nelchael> wltjr: I think so
21:12 <@      nichoj> oct 14th, lets do it
21:12 <@    nelchael> yay!
21:12 <@       wltjr> nelchael: yeah and I will be looking to stabilize tomcat as well as one of the first gen 2 packages since it has been out of date, about as long as 1.5 has been :)
21:13 <@      nichoj> ok, so what do we need to do to meet that goal?
21:13 <@    nelchael> wltjr: :)
21:13 <@      nichoj> we should get bugs filed this weekend
21:13 <@    nelchael> nichoj: fix all bugs in b.g.o wrt java-config
21:13 <@       wltjr> nichoj: test and refine I would assume, feature or major change freeze to the core
21:13 <@    nelchael> there's the tracker I created
21:13 <@      nichoj> # ?
21:14 <@       wltjr> nichoj: so what there are two scenarios to test right? upgrades and new installs on all archs?
21:14 <@    nelchael> nibug #143712
21:14 <@      nichoj> bug 143712
21:14 <       jeeves> nichoj: https://bugs.gentoo.org/143712 nor, P2, All, nelchael@gentoo.org->java@gentoo.org, NEW, pending, [TRACKER] Generation 2 Java build system - stable ebuilds
21:14 <@      nichoj> nelchael: that is just for packages that need core to be stable before becoming stable
21:15 <@      nichoj> so, we setup a new 'new java system stablization' bug, which blocks that one
21:15 <@    nelchael> ok
21:15 <@      nichoj> have instructions for testing... ie point to java-upgrade
21:15 <@      nichoj> list scenarios to test
21:15 <@      nichoj> I'm sure new installs should be fine. it never has been a problem that I've seen
21:16 <@      nichoj> upgrades, of course, are trickier
21:16 <@      nichoj> I wonder what scenarios we want to test there
21:17 <@      nichoj> at the very least, should test installing every java package
21:17 <@       wltjr> I can think of to many to make it practical
21:17 <@      nichoj> I know
21:17 <@      nichoj> but should we test with having 1.5 unmasked early, and bad byte code?
21:17 <@       wltjr> no I would imagine there to be less upgrades with 1.5 already existing
21:18 <@       wltjr> as opposed to way older trees or etc
21:18 <@      nichoj> at this point, they have likely upgraded to new system anyways
21:18 <@      Caster> I think we need a tracker for stuff that is stable and breaks with new system
21:18 <@      nichoj> yep
21:18 <@      Caster> db...
21:18 <@       wltjr> someone with 1.5 already unmasked could have done that at so many different points, overlays, etc
21:18 <@      nichoj> right
21:18 <@      Caster> cyrus-sasl is now sorted
21:18 <@      Caster> not sure if all arches
21:18 <@      nichoj> app-accessibility/gnome-speech
21:18 <@      nichoj> dev-java/jarjar
21:18 <@      nichoj> kde-base/kdejava-3.5.2
21:18 <@      nichoj> that's what I had break on amd64
21:18 <@      Caster> ah yeah kdejava and qtjava
21:19 <@      nichoj> there's a lot more stable x86 things though
21:19 <@       wltjr> nichoj: those with 1.5 have already "voided the warranty" by breaking the seal so :) those upgrade scenarios should all be pushed to the side
21:19 <@      nichoj> indeed. shoudl be able to have sane path for them to follow to become blessed again
21:19 <@      Caster> heh and those with 1.5 for gen-1 stuff we shoot
21:20 <@      nichoj> ie the person who forced it on bugzilla :)
21:20 <@      Caster> and there was some bug where somebody had /opt/jdk1.5.0.7/
21:20 <@      nichoj> yep
21:20 <@      Caster> no idea what that was :) certainly not from portage
21:20 <@       wltjr> nichoj: I agree on a path, but since their starting point can be in so many different places, the path is not likely to be the same for all, or as standard/similar as other upgrades
21:20 <@    nelchael> Caster: it was manual install
21:21 <@      nichoj> I think we got a pretty good idea of what needs to be done. let's try to get the tracker and whatnot filed this weekend
21:21 <@      nichoj> we could also probably announce the efforts to the gwn
21:21 <@       wltjr> nichoj: I would say, two paths, upgrade the standard way, everything in tree, or upgrade via an overlay
21:22 <@      nichoj> wltjr: I'm not so concerned with the overlays wrt stablization
21:22 <@       wltjr> nichoj: no I meant as to where they are coming from
21:22 <@      nichoj> I don't think I follow
21:22 <@       wltjr> nichoj: not suing it going forward as I was using this overlay, and now I am upgrading to the new system or etc
21:22 <@       wltjr> s/suing/using
21:23 <@      nichoj> I don't think we can really account for that
21:23 <@       wltjr> nichoj: that's what I was saying originally
21:23 <@      nichoj> ok :)
21:23 <@       wltjr> nichoj: since they could be coming from so many starting points, hard to make up a path to follow that would work
21:23 <@       wltjr> for all
21:23 <@      nichoj> so, any other thoughts / comments on stablization?
21:24 <@    nelchael> nope
21:24 <@      nichoj> alright, let's move onto how migration of the tree to new system is going
21:25 <@       wltjr> I migrated Tomcat :)
21:25 <@       wltjr> all seems well :)
21:25 <@      nichoj> sweet
21:25 <@      Caster> we need to improve docs
21:25 <@      Caster> nothing mentions --build-only
21:25 <@       wltjr> axxo: popped in earlier and gave a :( to the java5 useflag?
21:25 <@      Caster> and how to handle JAVA_PKG_STRICT
21:25 <@      nichoj> nelchael: in your java-generation-2, think you could do like a current symlink?
21:25 <@      nichoj> right
21:25 <@    nelchael> nichoj: yeap
21:25 <@      nichoj> Caster: interested in helping with getting those fixed?
21:26 <@      nichoj> :)
21:26 <@      nichoj> assuming your cvs works now
21:26 <@       wltjr> Betelguese: I believe made Tomcat strict ;)
21:26 <@      Caster> I just edit the docs there and it appears online?
21:26 <@      nichoj> essentially
21:26 <@    nelchael> Caster: yes
21:26 <@      Caster> ok
21:26 <@      nichoj> we can talk about it after the meeting
21:26 <@      Caster> right
21:26 <@      nichoj> http://overlays.gentoo.org/dev/nichoj/wiki/Development_Notes#GentooWebsite
21:26 <@      nichoj> fyi
21:27 <@      Caster> I still like wiki more
21:27 <@      nichoj> likewise
21:27 <@      nichoj> so, we have a few tools to help with migrating...
21:27 <@      nichoj> ie find-unported.py
21:27 <@      nichoj> I also was working on something that would give you exact atoms of unported stuff, so you could add to /etc/portage/package.mask
21:28 <@      nichoj> after you add that, you can try emerge -pvte world, to see what deps break :)
21:28 <@      nichoj> I was also going to do a quick script ot check package.env, and print things that are not generation-2
21:29 <@      Caster> oh that's two grep commands
21:29 <@      Caster> I used that :)
21:29 <@    nelchael> it's also important to get that repoman check
21:29 <@      nichoj> basically
21:29 <@      nichoj> yep
21:29 <@      nichoj> gotta step out for a sec, brb
21:29 <@    nelchael> ok
21:29 <@      Caster> one check if GENERATION line is missing, one check if it's GENERATION="1"
21:30 <@       wltjr> bathroom break for all, smoke if you got em :)
21:33 <@      nichoj> hmm, maybe java-config-2 should have --tools, to get tools.jar ?
21:33 <@      nichoj> like there's a --runtime
21:34 <@      Caster> yeah
21:34 <@      Caster> it would mean to put it in jvm's env file though
21:34 <@      nichoj> could try to look at ${JAVA_HOME}/lib/tools.jar if its unspecified by default
21:34 <@    nelchael> looking at agenda: virtuals - i presume that the new style virtuals ?
21:34 <@      nichoj> because that's a pretty good place to assume it'll be
21:34 <@      nichoj> nelchael: not quite
21:35 <@    nelchael> nichoj: why?
21:35 <@      nichoj> well, yes, in that they'd use new style virtuals
21:35 <@      nichoj> but it's for like virtual/javamail, virtual/jaf, etc
21:35 <@       wltjr> servletapi :)
21:35 <@      nichoj> yep
21:35 <@    nelchael> servletapi ?!
21:35  * wltjr shakes fist at the FOSS java world and SUN ;)
21:35 <@      nichoj> it gets a little tricky, because there a few that the jdk provides
21:36 <@      Caster> javamail? more like pkg move from javamail-bin :P
21:36 <@       wltjr> Caster: there is open source javamail and Sun's javamail
21:36 <@      nichoj> for example, jdbc-rowset
21:36 <@    nelchael> Caster: there's also gnu-
21:36 <@      nichoj> jdbc2-stdext, etc
21:36 <@      nichoj> the former comes with 1.5, but there's a package for it too
21:36 <@      Caster> but gnu uses different package names prefixed with gnu. ?
21:36 <@      nichoj> the latter comes with 1.4, and there's a package for it too
21:37 <@       wltjr> nelchael: there are two servletapi's, neither packaged on their own, Tomcat's used to be reference implementation, but now is just an implementation Sun has their own reference imp via glass fish
21:37 <@    nelchael> a..
21:37 <@      nichoj> a lot of the logic already in place for doing that magic, I think, its just commented out
21:37 <@      Caster> and xml apis + xerces
21:37 <@      nichoj> yep, that too
21:37 <@      Caster> mess :)
21:37 <@       wltjr> any lib someone would have a choice about
21:37 <@      nichoj> the only issue there was with the implementation, is that it had the possible packages fulfilling the virtual hard coded in the eclass
21:38 <@      nichoj> new style virtuals should be able to handle it
21:38 <@      nichoj> wltjr: yep
21:38 <@      Caster> it's better with the fact we are now jdk 1.4+ only
21:38 <@       wltjr> nichoj:  yes and upstream not conforming to spec, and binding to a given implementation of spec
21:38 <@      nichoj> ideally, I'd like to be able to parse DEPEND/RDEPEND for the virtuals, and record them accordingly
21:38 <@      nichoj> but, portage peeps not like that
21:39 <@      Caster> I see an issue with this
21:39 <@      nichoj> so, aside from that, you'd need to call a method saying what virtuals are being used, so it can get recorded in package.env appropriately
21:41 <@      Caster> how to handle situation where 1.5 jdk is used for build, thus brings no deps that are bundled, and later someone  tries to run it with 1.4
21:42 <@      nichoj> Caster: yes, that is the issue
21:42 <@      nichoj> I think depend-java-query figures it out
21:42 <@  Betelgeuse> I am off for today.
21:42 <@  Betelgeuse> Thanks for the fish.
21:42 <@       wltjr> Betelgeuse: l8r
21:42 <@      nichoj> Betelgeuse: later. we'll have some summary at some point
21:43 <@  Betelgeuse> nichoj: cool
21:43 <@      nichoj> so, let's take a look at the virtual stuff sometime after the meeting
21:44 <@      nichoj> it's not a huge rush, but as more time goes by, it becomes a bit obvious that we need to have this functionality
21:45 <@       wltjr> yes unless we find that more and more packages are binding to a given implementation and known not to work with another
21:45 <@      Caster> that won't issue with new-style
21:45 <@      nichoj> yep
21:45 <@       wltjr> then it would make it pretty useless, if every time someone switched an implementation it broke a pakage
21:46 <@      Caster> you wouldn't "switch" it
21:46 <@      Caster> just prefer for stuff that can work with any
21:46 <@      Caster> stuff that can't would depend on one particular one
21:46 <@       wltjr> users might want to
21:46 <@      Caster> they won't, such stuff won't use the virtual dep
21:46 <@      Caster> so users won't be able
21:47 <@      nichoj> I'd like to shelve talk of virtuals for now, we have other things to get to
21:47 <@       wltjr> yes
21:47 <@      nichoj> so, just keep it in the back of your head :)
21:47 <@      Caster> agreed :)
21:47 <@      nichoj> ah... documentation :)
21:47 <@    nelchael> docs now
21:47  * wltjr runs
21:47  * Caster hides
21:48  * nichoj lassos the stragglers
21:48 <@       wltjr> actually it's not that bad, I was just mentoining to someone else how I liked gentoo's docxml stuff
21:48  * nichoj gags on guidexml
21:48 <@      Caster> houston, we have a volunteer!
21:48  * nelchael stabs guidexml
21:48 <@      Caster> so as wltjr is the only one who likes it...
21:48 <@       wltjr> for as much web stuff as I do, I like it in ways better than say faclets or etc
21:48 <@    nelchael> but on the subject
21:48 <@      nichoj> like I was saying earlier, I'd like to get the end user cleaned up a bit
21:49 <@      nichoj> as you may know, it's under /doc/, so it's therefore, gdp's control
21:49 <@      Caster> it's a mess
21:49 <@    nelchael> I'm looking for someone to check resin-guide.xml
21:49 <@      nichoj> so changes need to be filed to them to get updates
21:49 <@      Caster> there's the java-old.xml which is for stable users
21:49 <@       wltjr> I need to update the tomcat guide, start on a connector guide, and ?
21:49 <@      Caster> but the new docs never point the stable user to the old docs
21:49 <@      Caster> must be confusing
21:49  * wltjr knows nothing about that stuff
21:49 <@      nichoj> nightmorph has been my main contact with docs peeps, so he probaby can be nudged for fixes :)
21:50 <@      Caster> how should one know that the doc he reads is not for him?
21:50 <@    nelchael> nichoj: I can ping rane too
21:50 <@      nichoj> doh
21:50 <@       wltjr> nichoj: I can make changes directly to tomcat-guide and commit right?
21:50 <@    nelchael> wltjr: it's in /proj/ - so yes
21:50 <@      nichoj> wltjr: should, since its under our space
21:51 <@      nichoj> we should file a bug for new guide to point at old guide
21:51 <@      nichoj> I'll be wallowing through user guide and upgrade guide to see what can be cleaned up
21:51 <@      nichoj> and filing appropriate bugs, etc
21:52 <@      nichoj> one doc I really want ot get done is the How to contribute / get involved doc
21:52 <@      nichoj> mostly, so when someone is like 'I want to help teh java team!', we can point them at it
21:52 <@      nichoj> instead of hand writing responses :)
21:52 <@    nelchael> any particular idea what it should contain?
21:53 <@      nichoj> lots of links to appropriate info
21:53 <@      nichoj> ie devmanual, using irc, mailing lists, etc
21:53 <@       wltjr> stuff like if possible instead of requesting a feature, make a patch and post that in bug report for new feature or etc
21:53 <@    nelchael> overlays.g.o/proj/java/
21:53 <@      nichoj> right
21:53 <@    nelchael> links to 'how to become a dev'
21:53 <@      nichoj> right
21:53 <@      nichoj> I kind of want those docs improved in general
21:54 <@      nichoj> because I don't think most users understand what it involves
21:54 <@    nelchael> link to SpanKY's picture
21:54  * nelchael hides
21:54 <@       wltjr>  nelchael: if a user asked you directly how could I help, what ever you would respond
21:54 <@      nichoj> my take is that a lot of people think you apply, join the team, and then start doing work
21:54 <@      nichoj> where as, its kind of the other way around
21:54 <@      nichoj> you do good work, get recognized, be asked to become a dev, then do more work :)
21:54 <@       wltjr> yes it's not a job, it's a volunteer effort
21:55 <@    nelchael> kind of never ending story
21:55 <@      nichoj> speaking of this, I have a backlog of people who emailed me that were interested...
21:55 <@      Caster> woo, bugzilla now obeys my will of "assign to"
21:55 <@    nelchael> Caster: yeap
21:55 <@      nichoj> I'm going to forward them to the alias
21:55 <@       wltjr> nichoj: make a generic email and reply to all if you can
21:55 <@      nichoj> so please, if you can, reply to some :) I've been slacking about getting to them
21:55 <@      Caster> talking bout alias
21:55 <@       wltjr> ok that will do as well
21:56 <@      nichoj> for people interested in particular packages, I've been wanting to get stuff written down in the maintainer notes
21:56 <@      Caster> can you add me to java alias?
21:56 <@      Caster> or I can myself somehow
21:56 <@    nelchael> Caster: yourself
21:56 <@    nelchael> look at /var/mail/alias/misc/
21:56 <@       wltjr> I was added
21:56 <@      nichoj> Caster: http://overlays.gentoo.org/dev/nichoj/wiki/Development_Notes#Herds
21:56 <@      nichoj> see bottom bit
21:56 <@       wltjr> Caster: I think either way ;)
21:56 <@    nelchael> nichoj: who of us can mentor new devs?
21:57 <@      nichoj> 6 months +
21:57 <@    nelchael> me, you, Betelgeuse, GurliGebis, karltk, sanchan
21:57 <@      Caster> thanks nichoj, will do
21:57 <@    nelchael> nichoj: I know.. I'm just thinking loud about it
21:57 <      genstef> GurliGebis: hi :)
21:57 <@      nichoj> karltk probably  doesn't have the time
21:57 <@    nelchael> right - genstef too
21:57 <@  GurliGebis> hey genstef
21:57 <      genstef> hey nelchael
21:57 <@    nelchael> genstef: hi :)
21:57 <      genstef> GurliGebis: just gave you the same pw from sunrise
21:57 <@       wltjr> I think someone other than nichoj is up next, maybe him again, but he did last two :) me and caster :)
21:57 <@      nichoj> I think GurliGebis only recently became a ebuild dev, right?
21:58 <@  GurliGebis> yep
21:58 <      genstef> nichoj: correct
21:58 <@  GurliGebis> genstef, I cannot remember that pw
21:58 <@      nichoj> so not GurliGebis yet
21:58 <@  GurliGebis> haven't used sunrise really
21:58 <@      nichoj> and sanchan probably isn't around enough to mentor
21:58 <@       wltjr> nelchael: so your up :)
21:58 <@    nelchael> wltjr: I've got Troll for desktop-misc now
21:58 <@  GurliGebis> nichoj, I have been a staff dev for a year now :)
21:58 <@    nelchael> but I can take another one
21:58 <      genstef> GurliGebis: all right - new one coming
21:58 <@      nichoj> GurliGebis: I know, but we're talking about mentoring new ebuild devs, ie to join java ;)
21:59 <@  GurliGebis> ahh
21:59 <@  GurliGebis> :-)
21:59 <@       wltjr> will be like March or beyond before I can consider it ;)
21:59 <      genstef> nichoj: can you not mentor new devs?
21:59 <@    nelchael> genstef: yeap
21:59 <@       wltjr> if I am even up to it at that point skill wise :o
21:59 <@     sanchan> I have to go, see you on monday
21:59 <@      nichoj> genstef: I can, and have
21:59 <@       wltjr> genstef: two now, back to back ;)
21:59 <      genstef> cool :)
22:00 <@       wltjr> but hopefully he will not have to mentor all new java recruits
22:00 <@      nichoj> nelchael: resin guide was on your todo list, right?
22:00 <@    nelchael> nichoj: it still is - waiting for a review
22:00 <@      nichoj> nelchael: send it around the alias
22:00 <@    nelchael> rane said he'll do it
22:00 <@      nichoj> or maybe put it in docs of overlay?
22:00 <@    nelchael> it is there
22:00 <@      nichoj> ah
22:00 <@    nelchael> :)
22:01 <@      nichoj> so, next item... articles on gentoo/java :)
22:01 <@      nichoj> we could use a little press about how good our support is ;)
22:01 <@      nichoj> one of our users was working on a  java livecd
22:01  * wltjr runs
22:01 <@      nichoj> so, that has a lot of potential I think
22:01 <@      Caster> yeah
22:01 <@       wltjr> yeah that would be interesting :)
22:02 <@      nichoj> I've had a short thread with him, so I'll forward it to the alias after the meeting
22:02 <@       wltjr> I would have loved one for a POS a while back
22:02 <@      Caster> now that he can put a jdk on it, heh
22:02 <@    nelchael> i've written few times about that on my blog
22:02 <@    nelchael> it reached a quite few people due to it being in planet.linux.pl
22:02 <@      nichoj> I think Betelgeuse was interested in articles too
22:02 <@      Caster> what's POS in this context?
22:02 <@       wltjr> Point of Sale
22:03 <@      Caster> ah, recently I heard POS when jakub was referring to bugzilla, probably different meaning
22:03 <@       wltjr> I guess technically a POSS, last one being system, but POS is the "buzz" word :)
22:03 <@      Caster> nelchael: but your blog isn't on gentoo planet?
22:03 <@      nichoj> so, if you guys have some 'success stories', we could maybe post them under the project space
22:03 <@    nelchael> Caster: no, as it's in Polish
22:03 <@       wltjr> sure, that's this meaning http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=POS
22:03 <@      Caster> ah
22:03 <@      nichoj> or know of people with them
22:03 <@      Caster> I have one
22:03 <@    nelchael> nichoj: I could produce an article about Java + Gentoo in my company
22:04 <@      nichoj> nelchael: that'd be great
22:04 <@      nichoj> I'm sure PR would appreciate it too :)
22:04 <@    nelchael> I'll talk about my boss on monday if it's ok with him
22:04 <@      nichoj> great
22:04 <@      Caster> "one day I wanted to use jacorb on gentoo for a school assignment and few months later I found myself having @gentoo.org mail"
22:04 <@       wltjr> if possible, in any article I think it should be mentioned allot of what is done for Java on Gentoo, can be applied to any *nix
22:04 <@      nichoj> yes
22:04 <@    nelchael> we have quite specialized products, so there aren't many clients - PR doesn't count so much
22:04 <@       wltjr> would be awesome if other distros or *nix ported the java system :)
22:05 <@      nichoj> nelchael: I meant gentoo pr
22:05 <@    nelchael> in such case - yes
22:05 <@    nelchael> :)
22:05 <@      Caster> other distros don't build from sources
22:05 <@      nichoj> I was talking to compnerd a bit ago, and that's kind of the plan for java-config-3 :)
22:05 <@      nichoj> Caster: yes they do
22:05 <@      nichoj> they just happen to package them before distribute them
22:05 <@       wltjr> Caster: it's not that aspect, but specifically java-config
22:05 <@      nichoj> ie rpm builds from source before building rpms
22:06 <@      Caster> so the abilty to have multiple VM's around, switching?
22:06 <@       wltjr> Caster: it can be used for more than just portage's use, considering most platforms lack any sort of java management tools for jre's, jdk's plugins, etc
22:06 <@      nichoj> robilad actually brought up debian was looking at doing something EXACTLY like java-config
22:06 <@      nichoj> something we could do maybe is 'being a good downstream' ?
22:06 <@      nichoj> ie our best practices
22:06 <@    nelchael> sounds interesting
22:06 <@      nichoj> to complement the being a good upstream doc I started
22:06 <@       wltjr> it would not surprise me if others got interested and implemented it if they find out about it or etc
22:07 <@      nichoj> yeah
22:07 <@      nichoj> I think if more people did 'good downstream', there would be less a need for 'good upstream' doc :)
22:07 <@       wltjr> really one of the things I liked early on about Gentoo was java-config and the other "tools" that many "enterprise" distros still lack
22:08 <@      nichoj> I think we're in a good position to document how to be a good upstream, and to get those changes made upstream
22:08 <@       wltjr> having run tomcat on RH from 7.x to 9, java was a PITA
22:08 <@      nichoj> more so as we gain more 'street cred' ;)
22:08 <@    nelchael> it's not so easy to change upstream attitude
22:08 <@    nelchael> consider NextApp
22:08 <@      nichoj> true
22:08  * wltjr is ready to whack a dev from another distro to up our 'street credit' :)
22:08 <@    nelchael> still no response
22:09 <@      nichoj> there are upstreams like that not in java too
22:09 <@    nelchael> yes
22:09 <@      nichoj> so, as you go through packaging stuff, keep in mind pet peeves and the like to add to the upstream doc
22:10 <@      nichoj> right now, its a bit unorganized, kind of a bullet point thing, but would like to clean it up at some point
22:10 <@    nelchael> can I add "drop maven - it's a PITA" ?
22:10 <@    nelchael> ;)
22:10 <      robilad> heh
22:10 <@      nichoj> ie blog about certain aspects , and why it's a good practice
22:10 <@      nichoj> then consolidate into a comprehensive reference
22:11 <@      nichoj> nelchael: not yet ;)
22:11 <@    nelchael> a... :] ;)
22:11 <@      nichoj> well, shall we move onto qa stuff?
22:11 <@    nelchael> yes
22:12 <@       wltjr> I we have covered all aspects of docs etc
22:12 <@      nichoj> nelchael: you sent patches to zmedico for repoman?
22:12 <@       wltjr> s/I we/I think we
22:12 <@    nelchael> nichoj: yes
22:12 <@    nelchael> waiting for inclusion
22:13 <@      nichoj> cool
22:13 <@      nichoj> I think pcheck has a bit of potential too
22:13 <@    nelchael> he said something about modularizing repoman - that's what's holding it
22:13 <@      nichoj> I might take a stab at it sometime, now that I know a little python
22:13 <@      nichoj> probably a good step is to list the type of checks we would want to do
22:14 <@    nelchael> pcheck would do QA for java ebuilds, right?
22:14 <@      nichoj> that would be the idea
22:14 <@       wltjr> so no more eant ... || die ?
22:15 <@      nichoj> it's supposed to be modular already
22:15 <@    nelchael> so .. why not use modules in new repoman (when tey get implemented) ?
22:15 <@    nelchael> wltjr: nope
22:15 <@      nichoj> wltjr: eant has always died
22:15 <@      nichoj> nelchael: sure. it was more out of curiousity
22:15 <@    nelchael> ok
22:15 <@       wltjr> so nothing after it
22:15 <@       wltjr> just let it die
22:15 <@      nichoj> correct
22:15 <@    nelchael> yeap
22:15 <@      nichoj> wltjr: look at eant in java-utils-2
22:15 <@      nichoj> it already does ant blah || die "eant failed"
22:16  * wltjr pokes out his eyes
22:16 <@    nelchael> are we going to fix all those ebuilds, or fix them as time goes ?
22:16  * nelchael helps wltjr
22:16 <@      nichoj> it doesn't hurt anything having them, so there's not a rush
22:17 <@    nelchael> ok
22:17 <@      Caster> yeah better more dies than no die thanks to freaking subshells
22:17 <@      nichoj> alright, so I'll make a wiki page later with qa checks we might want to do
22:18 <@      nichoj> and we can look at implementing them at some point
22:18 <@    nelchael> ok - include there also the checks that are pending repoman inclusion
22:18 <@      nichoj> right
22:18 <@      nichoj> nelchael: we would I find those?
22:19 <@    nelchael> the patch is somewhere at gentoo-java@g.o archives
22:19 <@    nelchael> but I can send it your way too
22:19 <@      nichoj> alright
22:19 <@      nichoj> I'll dig it up
22:19 <@    nelchael> ok
22:19 <@      nichoj> oh, so as far as the eclipse plugin goes...
22:19 <@      nichoj> supposedly zx had done work on it, but it was unreleased
22:19 <@      nichoj> I never can get anything out of that sly dog about it though
22:19 <@      Caster> what plugin?
22:20 <@    nelchael> Caster: to write ebuilds under eclipse
22:20 <@    nelchael> (as I understand it)
22:20 <@      Caster> wow
22:20 <@      nichoj> yep
22:20 <@      nichoj> a user has also been interested, benny^work
22:20 <@    nelchael> doesn't Colorer handle bash scripts?
22:20 <@      Caster> would rock :)
22:20 <@      nichoj> not sure if he had any luck
22:20 <@      nichoj> nelchael: probably
22:20  * wltjr considers making one for Netbeans
22:20 <@      nichoj> but of course, syntax highlighting is only one bit
22:20  * wltjr spits on swt
22:21 <@      nichoj> would obviously want to do other things too
22:21 <@      nichoj> like, qa checks :)
22:21 <@    nelchael> wltjr: I didn't like netbeans - but that's just me
22:21 <@      nichoj> so, we'd want to reuse checks somehow...
22:21 <@    nelchael> via Jython - use those from repoman
22:21 <@      nichoj> yep, exactly
22:22 <@      nichoj> a nice benefit with an ide would be the ability to enforce conventions
22:22 <@      nichoj> by having qa checks for them
22:22 <@      nichoj> and having commit hooks to ensure bad things don't get committed
22:22 <@      nichoj> without hearing from either zx or benny, there isn't really much more I know about it
22:22 <@      nichoj> this was part of a plot karltk and I were hatching :)
22:23 <@    nelchael> ok, so for now - let's move along
22:23 <@      nichoj> this leads us to future plans ;)
22:23 <@       wltjr> install Ubuntu
22:23 <@      nichoj> although, I guess some of these are already future plans
22:23 <@       wltjr> ;)
22:23 <@      Caster> take over the world!
22:23  * nichoj stabs wltjr
22:23 <@       wltjr> sry, Debian
22:23 <@    nelchael> yeah - and something that is quite .... tricky - split of dev-java
22:23  * nichoj mutters
22:24  * nelchael helps nichoj with stabbing wltjr
22:24 <@      nichoj> iirc, I mostly agreed with the layout you suggested
22:24 <@      Caster> how many categories can we get without being hated?
22:24 <@    nelchael> Caster: many
22:24 <@      Caster> perl has two :)
22:24 <@    nelchael> but that's not a problem
22:24 <@      nichoj> only thing would be not to have like java-apps, they should be under appropriate app-foo
22:24 <@    nelchael> some devs opose package moves
22:24 <@      nichoj> it is a bit of a pita
22:24 <@      nichoj> since you have to update deps, etc
22:24 <@    nelchael> yes, but there's no other way
22:25 <@    nelchael> so either we do the moves or kill the idea
22:25 <@      nichoj> yep
22:25 <@      nichoj> I'm just saying
22:25 <@    nelchael> anyway: with *-jdk and *-jre it's easy - just fix the virtuals
22:25 <@       wltjr> maybe done for future stuff, but not new categories for now
22:26 <@    nelchael> wltjr: it's not that easy - dev-java/sun-jdk with 1.4 and 1.5 stuff and java-jvm/sun-jdk with 1.6 stuff? that's not a smart thing to do
22:27 <@       wltjr> nelchael: well for the jdk's sure
22:27 <@    nelchael> and for many more packages - consider for example freemarker
22:27 <@       wltjr> do herds having any correlation to the categories ?
22:27 <@    nelchael> it's now in dev-java, should be somewhere else
22:27 <@    nelchael> wltjr: loose
22:27 <@      nichoj> maybe we should reuse existing categories more? ie, someone thought to have vms and compilers in dev-lang
22:27 <@      nichoj> which is where stuff traditionally goes
22:27 <@       wltjr> ok, so can't use that as  a reason then ;)
22:27 <@    nelchael> desktop-misc copes with software in x11-misc, net-misc and few others
22:28 <@    nelchael> nichoj: sounds good for me, but it's still a MOVE
22:28 <@      nichoj> yep
22:28 <@       wltjr> for now I would only move what could be done safely
22:28 <@      nichoj> I'm not opposed to them, was just saying it was a minor pain
22:28 <@       wltjr> which would be anything controlled by virtuals right? or even that will cause breakage?
22:29 <@    nelchael> I'm not oposed to MOVE either, but few devs are
22:29 <@      nichoj> I might add java-desktop to your list, ie libraries used by desktop apps
22:29 <@      nichoj> swt, etc
22:29 <@    nelchael> IMHO java-libs would be better for that
22:29  * wltjr prepares some flem
22:29 <@      nichoj> I would see java-libs more for general purpose stuff
22:29 <@    nelchael> as a few libs have use not only in desktop-apps
22:29 <@      nichoj> like commons
22:29 <@    nelchael> I proposed java-commons for commons-*
22:30 <@    nelchael> and jakarta-*
22:30 <@      nichoj> I don't really like that
22:30 <@       wltjr> ? jakarta ?
22:30 <       jeeves> http://sources.gentoo.org/viewcvs.py/gentoo-x86/dev-java/jakarta-oro/
22:30 <@      nichoj> since it's categorizing by where it comes from isntead of its use
22:30 <@       wltjr> jeeves lol
22:30 <@      Caster> I agree with nichoj here
22:30 <@      nichoj> I mean, java-db would be for java db related things, java-web for java web things,
22:31 <@    nelchael> probably yes, but commons-* and jakarta-* are quite.. well.. common
22:31 <@      nichoj> java-desktop for java desktop things
22:31 <@      nichoj> java-libs for any general purpose java library
22:31 <@       wltjr> java-libs
22:31 <@      Caster> that's too fine grained
22:31 <@       wltjr> :)
22:31 <@      Caster> those commons- etc
22:31 <@    nelchael> it's still a future talk, as when we try to do it - it will be blocked with "MOVEs are bad"
22:31 <@      nichoj> yep
22:31 <@      nichoj> we could always do it silently :)
22:31 <@    nelchael> Caster: but there's a lot of them - could fill single category with ease
22:31 <@    nelchael> nichoj: and get backstabbed ;)
22:31 <@       wltjr> when in doubt, play dumb, what moves :)
22:32 <@    nelchael> hehehehe
22:33 <@       wltjr> well for now I would start with the stuff that would make the most sense to all to be moved, which would be what jdks/jres
22:33 <@      nichoj> well, I think we got this thought out a bit more...  not sure when we'd want to attempt it
22:33 <@      nichoj> certainly a ways after core is stablized
22:33 <@      nichoj> hmmmm
22:33 <@      nichoj> just had a random idea, dev-java/java-core
22:33 <@      nichoj> to represent the core packages :)
22:33 <@       wltjr> and can be done in steps based on priority and justifications
22:33 <@       wltjr> one instead of 3-4 ;)
22:34 <@    nelchael> nichoj: hm.. no
22:34 <@    nelchael> virtual/java-core IMHO is better
22:34 <@      nichoj> perhaps
22:34 <@      nichoj> but its not a virtual in the traditional sense...
22:34 <@      nichoj> meta package, if anything
22:34 <@    nelchael> not in traditional
22:34 <@    nelchael> yes
22:35 <@      nichoj> anywho...
22:35 <@      nichoj> I added an idea for a java specific developer quiz
22:35 <@      nichoj> because in the past, and currently, had a team member who is part of recruiters
22:35 <@      nichoj> sejo used to be, Betelgeuse is now
22:35 <@    nelchael> hm... how would this test look?
22:35 <@      nichoj> so, it might make sense to have a java quiz
22:35 <@    nelchael> general questions about java?
22:36 <@      nichoj> nelchael: a few perhaps
22:36 <@      nichoj> classpath stuff
22:36 <@      nichoj> ant stuff
22:36 <@    nelchael> I don't know whenever devrel allows herd to have special quiz
22:36 <@      nichoj> then more importantly, stuff about our polices
22:36 <@    nelchael> kloeri: ping
22:36 <       kloeri> yo
22:36 <@    nelchael> kloeri: could you take a look few lines back ?
22:36 <@    nelchael> is it possible for us to have such quiz?
22:36 <@      nichoj> well, worse case, we can make people take it before passing it onto the recruiter ;)
22:37 <       kloeri> yeah, you can have a java quiz if you like
22:37 <@      nichoj> s/it/the other quizes/
22:37 <     christel> theres nothing preventing you from having a java specific one on top of the other ones :)
22:37 <@    nelchael> nichoj: so it's clear: getting to Java team will require passing 3 tests
22:37 <       kloeri> recruiters just need to be aware of it so we don't accidentally process somebody who didn't pass your quiz first
22:37 <     christel> hell, thats a good idea imo
22:37 <@      nichoj> nelchael: essentially
22:37 <@    nelchael> I'm for it
22:37 <@      nichoj> since you know, there are a lot of intricacies to java that aren't in other parts of the tree
22:37 <@    nelchael> we just have to iron out questions and expected answers
22:38 <     christel> :)
22:38 <@      nichoj> plus, we could have some guidelines for recruiting people to work in our overlays
22:38 <       kloeri> recruiters don't care except that we need to know when somebody has passed your quiz and can move on to "our" quizzes
22:38 <@       wltjr> by any chance could it be merged with aspects of the 2nd quiz, and possible replace it?
22:38 <@    nelchael> wltjr: no
22:38 <@    nelchael> it has to be separate quiz
22:38 <@       wltjr> sine if the dev is going to be java only, literally, knowing C flags and etc won't really matter?
22:38 <     christel> wltjr: no, wed still need to have the end quiz done
22:38 <@    nelchael> as ebuil and end quiz are mandatory
22:38 <@      nichoj> ah, that's kind of a good point... since there is a lot of non-java related...
22:38 <@      nichoj> that we'd never have to touch
22:38 <@      nichoj> ie fPIC stuff
22:39 <@       wltjr> well I am saying keeping like 50% or more of the second quiz
22:39 <@    nelchael> nichoj: sometimes... consider JNI stuff in some packages
22:39 <@      nichoj> true
22:39 <@       wltjr> just 3 quizzes to a newb, might limit or hinder new recruits
22:39 <@    nelchael> wltjr: that depends
22:39 <@       wltjr> nelchael: yes but rare, and we should have java helpers for most jni stuff
22:39 <@      nichoj> well, would rather not have them if they can't pass our quiz
22:39 <       kloeri> nichoj: devs get tree-wide access though and are quite likely to move into other areas as well, so recruiters would always require ebuild devs to pass the full set of quizzes
22:39 <@    nelchael> I'm mentoring Troll - he's around for over a year and still wants to be a dev
22:39 <@      nichoj> true
22:39 <@       wltjr> either way, just tossin it out there ;)
22:40 <     christel> you could of course work it another way, and work the java specific quiz into your mentoring routine
22:40 <@      nichoj> right
22:40 <@    nelchael> kloeri: btw. how's Troll ebuild-quiz? ;)
22:40 <     christel> and do it in a fun interactive way
22:40 <       kloeri> nelchael: haven't looked at it I'm afraid
22:40 <     christel> if you're afraid people would get sick of answering outright quiz type stuff
22:40 <@      nichoj> with a quiz, even if its not 'official', does give you some path to follow, ideas about what to expect
22:40 <@    nelchael> kloeri: ok, we're still working on end-quiz, so no hurry
22:40 <       kloeri> nelchael: I've been busy writing up wltjr's new-dev announcement :)
22:41 <@    nelchael> kloeri: ok, no problem
22:41 <@       wltjr> :o
22:41 <     christel> i made one of my recruits do that ebuildapptest quiz ciaran wrote
22:41 <@      nichoj> so how about we brainstorm some ideas for the quiz, and kick it up on the wiki?
22:41 <@       wltjr> lies
22:41 <@    nelchael> kloeri: mention there that he's and tomcat-addict ;)
22:41 <@    nelchael> christel: BOFH? ;)
22:41 <       kloeri> wltjr: actually, posted it about two hours ago but it haven't showed up yet
22:41 <@      nichoj> he likes his milk in a saucer
22:41 <       kloeri> nelchael: haha
22:41 <     christel> mind, i also made him do vim stuff despite being a dedicated emacs user
22:41 <@    nelchael> rather BRFH
22:42 <     christel> i must have had some sort of magic authoritive aura when dealing with him
22:42 <     christel> :)
22:42 <@       wltjr> yes I like all forms of cats :)
22:42  * christel purrs
22:42 <@    nelchael> raw or well cooked?
22:42 <@      nichoj> sauteed
22:42 <@       wltjr> molested
22:42 <@    nelchael> ok, anyway... back on topic?
22:43 <@      nichoj> yep
22:43 <     christel> btw. i believe hardened already has a hardened specific quiz
22:43 <@      nichoj> maven? :)
22:43 <     christel> so i see no reasons why others cant
22:43 <@    nelchael> KILL IT
22:43 <@      nichoj> nelchael: care to take the mic?
22:43 <@    nelchael> just kiddin
22:43 <@    nelchael> ok
22:43 <@    nelchael> situation with maven is as follows:
22:43 <       kloeri> christel: hardened, doc at least
22:43  * christel nods
22:43 <@    nelchael> 2.0.4 has broken <system> dep handling, so it's a no-go for us
22:44 <@    nelchael> wehn 2.0.5 comes out the plan is as follows:
22:44 <@      nichoj> nelchael: I don't know if everyone is familar with that concept
22:44 <     christel> maybe i should make one for userrel, i could make them draw specific things while wearing blindfolds
22:44 <@      nichoj> or how it'd be used
22:44 <       kloeri> recruiters have a 6+ month long quiz :)
22:44 <@    nelchael> i'm starting to outline it :)
22:44  * christel plots
22:44 <@      nichoj> nelchael: sorry :)
22:44  * nichoj goes back to his seat
22:44 <@    nelchael> the point of whole maven-mess is to be able to build packages that use maven
22:44 <@    nelchael> and not breaking emerge -f
22:45 <@    nelchael> so no downloading during build
22:45 <@    nelchael> that can be achieved two ways:
22:45 <@    nelchael> 1. rewrite pom.xml files to use <system> deps - to allow using portage installed JARs
22:45 <@    nelchael> 2. create temporary repository and point maven there
22:45 <@       wltjr> :)
22:45 <@    nelchael> - it would be full of symlinks to installed packages
22:45 <@      nichoj> isn't there a third option?
22:46 <@      nichoj> ie to do a wagon transport using portage
22:46 <@    nelchael> it is - but that's a bit of overkill and doesn't solve downloading plugins
22:46 <@    nelchael> so back to "The Plan":
22:47 <@    nelchael> when 2.0.5 comes out - build it using maven-bin (yes: download the sources and binary version) - after that it'll be easy - I'm currently exploring option #2 - temporary repository
22:47 <@    nelchael> why both need to be downloaded?
22:47 <@    nelchael> mavens bootstrap.sh builds mini-maven
22:48 <@    nelchael> (much like ant), but with one exception: the mini-maven doesn't handle offline mode
22:48 <@    nelchael> so that's a PITA to bootstrap
22:48 <@    nelchael> to summarize: we're waiting on 2.0.5
22:48 <@    nelchael> after that - all hell breaks loose
22:48  * nelchael hand the mic back to nichoj
22:48 <@      nichoj> I did have a 2.0.5 snapshot put up, that supposedly has the fix...
22:49 <@      nichoj> so if you're inclined to start poking at it... :)
22:49 <@    nelchael> nichoj: it has, but 2.0.5 probably will give us one more thing:
22:49 <@    nelchael> instead of rewriting deps to system scope it'll be possible to add file="foo.jar" to deps
22:50 <@    nelchael> so that's the fourth option
22:50 <@      nichoj> interesting
22:50 <@      nichoj> so we play the waiting game
22:50 <@    nelchael> yes - but I don't know whever it will make it into 2.0.5
22:50 <@    nelchael> yes
22:50 <@    nelchael> for now: if you encounter package with pom.xml, and no build.xml:
22:50 <@      nichoj> could you add some notes to https://overlays.gentoo.org/proj/java/wiki/Maven_Notes about workarounds for now?
22:50 <@    nelchael> use `mvn ant:ant` to get build.xml
22:50 <      lu_zero> hm
22:51 <      lu_zero> question
22:51 <@      nichoj> possibly with more details about the plan
22:51 <      lu_zero> !meta ibm-jdk-bin
22:51 <       jeeves> lu_zero: Package: dev-java/ibm-jdk-bin Herd: java Maintainer: java Description: IBM SDK Development kit.
22:51 <@    nelchael> nichoj: yes
22:51 <@      nichoj> cool
22:51 <      lu_zero> is it converted to the new style yet?
22:51 <@      nichoj> lu_zero: yes
22:51 <      lu_zero> as is isn't working =P
22:51 <@    nelchael> lu_zero: works for me on x86 and ppc
22:52 <@      nichoj> lu_zero: we're currently having a meeting, can we get back to you in a bit?
22:52 <@      Caster> nelchael: I thought pom.xml is maven2 which means no more ant:ant fun?
22:52 <@      nichoj> Caster: it works sort of
22:52 <      lu_zero> nichoj sure, sorry ^^;
22:52 <@    nelchael> Caster: we don't even plan on supporting maven1
22:52 <@      nichoj> just doesn't guarantee to reproduce a build.xml that does the same as pom.xml
22:52 <@    nelchael> and mvn2 has ant:ant
22:52 <@      Caster> and maven1 is project.xml and ant:ant works fine?
22:52 <@      nichoj> Caster: yes
22:52 <@    nelchael> I don't know - I used maven1 once
22:53 <@      nichoj> ant:ant works fine in maven1 without any cathces
22:53 <@      Caster> so how to distinguish
22:53 <@      Caster> ant1 = project.xml
22:53 <@      Caster> erm maven1
22:53 <@      Caster> maven2 = pom.xml
22:53 <@      nichoj> correct
22:53 <@    nelchael> yes
22:53 <@      Caster> maven1 - ant:ant, put build.xml in FILESDIR
22:53 <@      Caster> maven2 - ant:ant, hope it didn't broke?
22:54 <@    nelchael> the same as maven1
22:54 <@      nichoj> yeah, and hope it works
22:54 <@    nelchael> you just need to fix it to disable downloading of jars
22:54 <@      nichoj> right
22:54 <@      Caster> hm ok
22:54 <@      nichoj> usually its controlled by a property
22:54 <@    nelchael> not a hard task
22:54 <@    nelchael> usually
22:54 <@      nichoj> so can just -Dfoo=false or whatever
22:54 <@      Caster> so what maven(-bin) to install for this?
22:55 <@    nelchael> Caster: in my overlay: ebuild for jline has build.xml from maven2
22:55 <@      nichoj> Caster: maven-bin, yes
22:55 <@    nelchael> maven is maven1, and maven-bin is maven2
22:55 <@      nichoj> you mean mvn
22:55 <@      Caster> I need both? or maven2 will ant:ant maven1 ebuilds too?
22:55 <@      nichoj> for maven 2
22:55 <@      nichoj> you need both
22:55 <@    nelchael> Caster: simple:
22:55 <@      Caster> ok
22:55 <@    nelchael> you found project.xml -> use maven1
22:56 <@    nelchael> you found pom.xml -> use mvn (maven2)
22:56 <@    nelchael> eitherway: kill the upstream
22:56 <@    nelchael> ;)
22:56 <@      Caster> right
22:56 <@      nichoj> should be ant:ant in either case
22:56 <@      Caster> now wiki it :)
22:56 <@    nelchael> yes
22:56 <@    nelchael> ok :)
22:56 <@      nichoj> alright, so let's get to the last 2 points :)
22:56 <@      nichoj> Java 1.6: Now with more cowbell
22:56 <@      nichoj> supposed to be coming out in october last we heard
22:56 <@    nelchael> yes
22:56 <@      nichoj> so please, use as your default JDK for everything :)
22:56 <@      nichoj> well
22:57 <@      nichoj> for building at least
22:57 <@    nelchael> any plans on putting it in main tree hardmasked?
22:57 <@      nichoj> the beta?
22:57 <@      nichoj> or real release?
22:57 <@    nelchael> RCs
22:57 <@      Caster> bah it's still at last week's release
22:57 <@      nichoj> nope
22:57 <@      nichoj> there's some legal issues with the licensing
22:57 <@      Caster> and on monday it will appear with thursday's date
22:57 <@      nichoj> that we're not sure of, and neither is our sun contact, david hurron (sp?)
22:58 <@      nichoj> so just overlays for now
22:58 <@    nelchael> ok
22:58 <@    nelchael> and...
22:58 <@      nichoj> once it releases, I expect to put it in the tree not package.mask'd
22:58 <@    nelchael> one more thing (not on agenda)
22:58 <@      Caster> btw I tried to package jdk6 docs and failed miserably, it comes as a jar which you run to extract it, and you have to accept a license... in a SWING WINDOW!
22:58 <@      nichoj> Caster: yeah, we'll wait on that I think
22:58 <@      Caster> headless trick didn't work
22:58 <@    nelchael> what about pinging David about other Suns java packages? I'm thinking about simpler JWSDP archive
22:59 <@      nichoj> nelchael: good idea
22:59 <@    nelchael> Caster: tried -console ?
22:59 <@      nichoj> nelchael: your babies, so you can draft it up :)
22:59 <@      Caster> java -console ?
22:59 <@    nelchael> Caster: java -jar foo.jar -console
22:59 <@    nelchael> nichoj: ok - I'll write a mail about it tomorrow
22:59 <@      nichoj> cool
22:59 <@      nichoj> oh, and a note about 1.6...
23:00 <@      nichoj> it usually breaks because of jdbc 4 adding new methods
23:00 <@    nelchael> running the installer every time is a PITA
23:00 <@      nichoj> so anything db related will break
23:00 <@    nelchael> yes
23:00 <@      nichoj> so just do the || magic for now
23:00 <@    nelchael> that's why I added the note about jdbc drivers
23:00 <@      nichoj> yep
23:00 <@      nichoj> should be filling bugs upstream too
23:00 <@    nelchael> yes
23:01 <@    nelchael> 1.7 is in early alpha - it may not work at all
23:01 <@    nelchael> should we even consider testing it?
23:01 <@      nichoj> it probably doesn't even have any changes
23:01 <@    nelchael> my proposal is to suspend it until 1.6 comes out
23:01 <@      Caster> what's || magic?
23:01 <@      nichoj> probably not yet, not till they start doing weekly snapshots
23:02 <@      nichoj> Caster: say the dpened is >=virtual/jdk-1.4
23:02 <@      nichoj> breaks with 1.6
23:02 <@      Caster> ah that
23:02 <@      Caster> right
23:02 <@      nichoj> so do || ( =virtual/jdk-1.4* =virtual/jdk-1.5* )
23:02 <@      nichoj> and add a FIXME comment
23:02 <@    nelchael> we missed one point on agenda: dropping 1.3 JDK/JRE
23:02 <@    nelchael> we have kloeri here - alpha guy
23:02 <@    nelchael> ;)
23:02 <@    nelchael> so we can consult this with him
23:03 <       kloeri> uhh..
23:03 <       kloeri> :)
23:03 <@      Caster> punt compaq-jdk
23:03 <@    nelchael> imho punt it too
23:03 <       kloeri> yeah, go ahead
23:03 <@      Caster> it was never in jdk-1.3 depends anyway
23:03 <@      Caster> probably the same security issues applied to it too
23:03 <@      nichoj> likely
23:03 <       kloeri> alpha wants a proper java solution, not some crazy unsupported 1.3 hack that useless for most stuff
23:03 <@    nelchael> and it was only alpha
23:03 <@      nichoj> yep
23:03 <@    nelchael> ok, so...
23:03 <@      nichoj> hopefully, we'll have gcj in the future
23:04 <@      nichoj> we have kaffe currently as well...
23:04 <       kloeri> nichoj: nod
23:04 <@      nichoj> which may work for most cases
23:04 <@    nelchael> hardmasking it will break deps
23:04 <@  Betelgeuse> kloeri: Btw in the future probably best to put the new java guys through me.
23:04 <@      Caster> what deps on it?
23:04 <       kloeri> Betelgeuse: yup
23:04 <@    nelchael> Caster: anything java that has ~alpha
23:04 <@      nichoj> there are other free vms out there, but I don't know up or downstream statuses of them
23:05 <@      Caster> must've been broken before anyway, virtual/jdk didn't have ~alpha
23:05 <@    nelchael> any idea how to do it properly ?
23:05 <@      nichoj> ideally, I'd like someone to be hardcore working on free java stuff for us :)
23:05 <@    nelchael> geki ?
23:05 <@      nichoj> I mean, working on other vms too
23:05 <       kloeri> Caster: we've been removing alpha keywords from java stuff since it was horribly broken anyway
23:05 <@      Caster> ah
23:05 <@    nelchael> kloeri: so I'm free to hard mask it ?
23:06 <       kloeri> nelchael: absolutely
23:06 <@    nelchael> ok, give me a second
23:06 <       kloeri> compaq-jdk isn't maintained upstream afaik and we can't maintain it either as it's closed source
23:06 <@      nichoj> well, I'd say we've covered everything in our agenda :)
23:07 <       kloeri> need to get rid of that stuff and concentrate on viable solutions like kaffe/gcj/cacao instead
23:07 <@      nichoj> is there anything else worth talking about before we adjourn?
23:07 <       kloeri> anybody that wants to do java testing on ia64? SeJo was going to help with that before he resigned
23:08 <@      nichoj> possibly
23:08 <@      nichoj> do we have anyone that would be using it though?
23:08 <@      Caster> how many people have ia64
23:08 <@      Caster> world-wide
23:08 <       kloeri> I'm sure we have users but if you have more important stuff to do that's fine
23:08 <@    nelchael> compaq-jdk and compaq-jre p.masked
23:09 <@  Betelgeuse> kloeri: I would if I had the time. :(
23:09 <@      nichoj> I wouldn't mind testing like testing ~ia64... but not so much into stablization
23:09 <       kloeri> I can just do java testing and keywording from time to time as I see fit
23:09 <@    nelchael> kloeri: it's not the case we have other things to do - it's a case of rare hardware - noone of us has it (AFAIRC)
23:09 <@  Betelgeuse> nichoj: What do you think about installing gnu-classpath to /opt/${PN}-${SLOT}/
23:09 <@      nichoj> Betelgeuse: not opposed to it
23:09 <       kloeri> nelchael: I don't have an ia64 box either but remote dev'ing works fine :)
23:09 <@      nichoj> might help with some file collisions by having differnet prefix
23:09 <@    nelchael> kloeri: hm...
23:10 <       kloeri> concentrate on more important / pressing matters though
23:10 <@    nelchael> ok
23:11 <@    nelchael> anybody has any concerns, questions ?
23:11 <@      nichoj> can I go take a nap now? ;)
23:11 <@    nelchael> looks like so
23:12 <@      nichoj> anyone want to summarize / post to -dev?
23:12 <@      nichoj> I may have stopped taking notes after the personel update thingies
23:12 <@      nichoj> s/may have// ;)
23:13 <@    nelchael> I can do it tomorrow
23:13 <@  Betelgeuse> nichoj: Yeah, trying to slot it as they break the vm interface every once in a while.
23:13 <@    nelchael> I'll go over the logs and summarize it
23:13 <@       wltjr> nichoj: to delete stuff do you what just delete it and commit? and it's removed on commit?
23:14 <@      Caster> nelchael: thanks, I don't envy that :)
23:14 <@    nelchael> wltjr: use cvs rm -f on files - the directories will be removed on cvs up
23:14 <@    nelchael> Caster: ?
23:14 <@       wltjr> sry, I kinda lost focus during the maven stuff, and drifted a bit back in during the 1.6-7 stuff ;)
23:14 <@    nelchael> nichoj: ^^^^ about the summary - ok ?
23:14 <@      Caster> nelchael: summarizing stuff :)
23:14 <@    nelchael> a..
23:14 <@       wltjr> nelchael: ty, trying to clean up tomcat stuff in tree and etc
23:15 <@  Betelgeuse> wltjr: rm the file and them cvs rm
23:15 <@  Betelgeuse> wltjr: I do this with a cvsrm bash function
23:15 <@    nelchael> Betelgeuse: `rm -f file; cvs rm file` is the same as `cvs rm -f file`
23:15 <@      Caster> you really need to do both rm and cvs rm?
23:15 <@       wltjr> yeah, I am learning all the manual ways first before I automate or use any scripts or etc
23:15 <@  Betelgeuse> nelchael: Yeah.
23:15 < predatorfrea> Is the meeting still going or could I ask a quick question? :)
23:16 <@  Betelgeuse> nelchael: I just have the -f flags ;D
23:16 <@  Betelgeuse> s/have/try to avoid/
23:16 <@    nelchael> predatorfreak: we're waiting on nichoj to ack something, and it will be over
23:16 < predatorfrea> Well, does anyone know why gcj completely dies on well... everything besides eclipse-ecj?
23:17 < predatorfrea> I think it's the classpath, but then I go to update it and the script completely dies.
23:17 <@    nelchael> nichoj: I can do it tomorrow (the summary) - I'll go over the logs and summarize it. ok ?
23:17 <@  Betelgeuse> nelchael: ok
23:17 <@      Caster> yeah please do
23:17 <@  Betelgeuse> I will write something up for the devjam mailing list.
23:17 <@    nelchael> ok
23:17 <@      Caster> looks like nichoj's already napping
23:18 <@    nelchael> probably yes
23:18 <@    nelchael> so the meeting is over - thank you all for atending