Java 1.5 - the Real Story [was: Re: [gentoo-java] Question about Sun-Jdk 1.4.2.10]

[Karl Trygve Kalleberg <karltk@gentoo.org>]

Peter B. West wrote:


I had hoped this discussion died down by itself, since it has no merit 
whatsoever. I guess for confuzzled readers, it's time I made something 
of an "official" statement on the 1.5 issue on behalf of the Java team.


> I think you're missing my point.  Java 5 works, and is, for practical 
> purposes, forward compatible with 1,4, with the exception of 'enum'.  If 
> that is so, why not a flag 'java5', that triggers source source 1.4 on 
> packages that need it?  The system JVM is 5, and Bob's your uncle. 
> What's the system-level stability issue?

This issue has been adressed multiple times before, so I won't go into 
why Java 1.5 is not a drop-in replacement to for 1.4 in the Gentoo 
package system.

> This is not a technical issue, it's an ideological issue, as I said 
> before.

It may be an ideological issue to you, but you are not on the Gentoo 
Java developer team. I am. I can speak for the Java developer team, and 
state once and for all that the only reason why Java 1.5 is not 
unmasked, is because of technical issues that we are still working on.


 > This is, in fact, quite explicit in the Gentoo documentation. I
> suggest that subscribers to the "conspiracy-theory-theory" (I never used 
> the word) read the "Gentoo social contract"
> <http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/contract.xml>, including the definition 
> of "free software" <http://www.fsf.org/licensing/essays/free-sw.html>.
 >
> I suggest, further, that the Gentoo folks in this forum come clean about 
> this when asked in good faith about using Java 5 on Gentoo.  The answer 
> is along these lines: Java 5 will not be supported on Gentoo until a 1.5 
> JVM is available under a Stallman-approved licence.

Again, as the lead of the Java team, I'll simply state that this is 
untrue. I should think that we, the developers, have a good idea of our 
reasons for not putting it in yet. If you hear reasons not coming from 
us that differ from our stated opinions, it is safe to assume they are 
invalid.

 > The genuine options for J5 users are to scrap the Gentoo Java support and
 > maintain your own  Java environment, or to abandon Gentoo.

This is known as a "false dichotomy", and is usually used as a bogus 
rhetorical trick to incite flamewars. In reality, there are many more 
choices:

(3) Use the Axxo overlay
(4) Use the Java 1.5 JRE, but not the JDK
(5) Help us solve the remaining technical issues

I have a hard time seeing how you could have missed these three.

> I see that there is yet another enquiry on the list about using J5. Do 
> that user a favour and tell him why he can't get a supported J5 
> environment on Gentoo, so that he can then make informed decisions. If 
> you guys are embarrassed by the Gentoo ideology, change it or leave. If 
> not, present it honestly, instead of spouting this deliberately 
> misleading BS about system stability issues.  It's leaving users with 
> the impression that J5 is unstable, which it patently is not.


This is a comment worthy of debian-legal;P

Seriously, though, I'd like to reiterate: The problem comes down to 
manpower, not ideology.

Instead of spending your and my time on writing mails on this topic, 
please help us solve the technical issues. The Gentoo community, as any 
other open-source community, is dependent on help, input and 
constructive criticism from our users.


Cheers,

-- Karl T
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