[gentoo-installer] version 0.3 of the Gentoo Linux Installer

[gentoo-installer] version 0.3 of the Gentoo Linux Installer

[Andrew Gaffney]

The Gentoo Linux Installer team would like to announce version 0.3 of the
installer. This release will be an official part of the 2006.0 Gentoo release.
The old universal and package CDs have been replaced by the Installer LiveCD for
the x86 architecture. An experimental AMD64 Installer LiveCD will also be
released under /experimental, and will have similar capabilities, but it is not
officially supported.

As always, there are many improvements (and bugfixes) since the last version.

  * Improved support for preserving existing partitions (many, many bugfixes)
  * Complete rewrite of the GRP handling code: We no longer use quickpkg and
    'emerge -K', which has cut the install time for GRP about in half.
  * GTK+ frontend redesign: the listing of steps that was previously in the
    separate panel on the left has been replaced by the "Future Bar" (as named
    and designed by blackace). This allows more space for each screen, and it
    prevents the problem of the steps going off the bottom of the screen.
  * More sub-progress reporting: any install step that takes more than a few
    seconds will now report on its progress in a secondary progress bar (or as
    part of the main progress bar in gli-dialog). Included is stuff like
    partitioning, downloading a tarball, unpacking a tarball, emerging packages,
    etc.
  * Recommended partition layout: If you have at least 4GB of consecutive
    unallocated space, the installer can create a partitioning layout for you
    consisting of a 100MB /boot, a swap with a size calculated based on amount
    of physical memory, and a / taking up the remaining space.
  * Graceful cleanup after install failure in both frontends

As always with improvements, there are new bugs created to go along with them.
If you do encounter a bug, make sure to save your /tmp/installprofile.xml and
/var/log/installer.log.failed from the LiveCD right after the install fails.
File a bug at http://bugs.gentoo.org/. Select the "Gentoo Linux" product and the
"GLI" component. If you can't find that, just use the following link:

http://bugs.gentoo.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=Gentoo%20Linux&component=GLI

With the installer, we have set a new world speed record for a Gentoo install.
Using gli-dialog, a local (on disk or on a local ftp/http server) stage3
tarball, the portage snapshot on the LiveCD, and the GRP option, we have
completed an install in just under 7 minutes. This was in VMWare on a box with
an Athlon64 3200+, 1GB of memory (512MB allocated to VMWare), and a SATA disk.
The same install in the GTK+ frontend took 10:40 on a Athlon64 4200+ with 1GB
of memory (384MB allocated to VMWare) and a SATA disk, but the GTK+ frontend
does a few things (displaying the install logfile and compile output) that the
dialog frontend does not do.

There are updated screenshots of both frontends available at
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/releng/installer/screenshots/. There are also
some videos of different types of installs using both frontends. The videos
should be available via the Gentoo bittorrent tracker at
http://torrents.gentoo.org/. The three install types are:

  * basic: minimal install, dynamic stage3, GRP for logger, cron, and bootloader
  * gnome GRP: dynamic stage3, GRP option, gnome added to extra packages
  * speed test: minimal install, local stage3 tarball, GRP for logger, cron, and
    bootloader

The first two types are both networkless.

As mentioned in the release announcement for 0.2, there is also a web-based
frontend in the works. It is the profile creation component of the network
deployment system called GLIMD (Gentoo Linux Installation Management Daemon).
GLIMD is designed to deploy multiple machines (optionally with different
profiles) simultaneously. While we have had a few successful test installs with
this method, it is still *extremely* alpha.

-- 
Andrew Gaffney                            http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/
Gentoo Linux Developer                                   Installer Project
-- 
gentoo-installer@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-installer] version 0.3 of the Gentoo Linux Installer

[Kannan Shah]

Congradulations on the new release, I'm looking forward to using it! 

Is there any chance that an install with KDE instead of Gnome (i.e. KDE GRP?) 
could be included in the future?

If no, then what are the reasons that Gnome gets more support from you than 
KDE? 

I'll appreciate your response. 

Thank you,
Kannan

On Sunday 26 February 2006 10:14 pm, Andrew Gaffney wrote:
> The Gentoo Linux Installer team would like to announce version 0.3 of the
> installer. This release will be an official part of the 2006.0 Gentoo
> release. The old universal and package CDs have been replaced by the
> Installer LiveCD for the x86 architecture. An experimental AMD64 Installer
> LiveCD will also be released under /experimental, and will have similar
> capabilities, but it is not officially supported.
>
> As always, there are many improvements (and bugfixes) since the last
> version.
>
>   * Improved support for preserving existing partitions (many, many
> bugfixes) * Complete rewrite of the GRP handling code: We no longer use
> quickpkg and 'emerge -K', which has cut the install time for GRP about in
> half. * GTK+ frontend redesign: the listing of steps that was previously in
> the separate panel on the left has been replaced by the "Future Bar" (as
> named and designed by blackace). This allows more space for each screen,
> and it prevents the problem of the steps going off the bottom of the
> screen. * More sub-progress reporting: any install step that takes more
> than a few seconds will now report on its progress in a secondary progress
> bar (or as part of the main progress bar in gli-dialog). Included is stuff
> like partitioning, downloading a tarball, unpacking a tarball, emerging
> packages, etc.
>   * Recommended partition layout: If you have at least 4GB of consecutive
>     unallocated space, the installer can create a partitioning layout for
> you consisting of a 100MB /boot, a swap with a size calculated based on
> amount of physical memory, and a / taking up the remaining space.
>   * Graceful cleanup after install failure in both frontends
>
> As always with improvements, there are new bugs created to go along with
> them. If you do encounter a bug, make sure to save your
> /tmp/installprofile.xml and /var/log/installer.log.failed from the LiveCD
> right after the install fails. File a bug at http://bugs.gentoo.org/.
> Select the "Gentoo Linux" product and the "GLI" component. If you can't
> find that, just use the following link:
>
> http://bugs.gentoo.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=Gentoo%20Linux&component=GLI
>
> With the installer, we have set a new world speed record for a Gentoo
> install. Using gli-dialog, a local (on disk or on a local ftp/http server)
> stage3 tarball, the portage snapshot on the LiveCD, and the GRP option, we
> have completed an install in just under 7 minutes. This was in VMWare on a
> box with an Athlon64 3200+, 1GB of memory (512MB allocated to VMWare), and
> a SATA disk. The same install in the GTK+ frontend took 10:40 on a Athlon64
> 4200+ with 1GB of memory (384MB allocated to VMWare) and a SATA disk, but
> the GTK+ frontend does a few things (displaying the install logfile and
> compile output) that the dialog frontend does not do.
>
> There are updated screenshots of both frontends available at
> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/releng/installer/screenshots/. There are also
> some videos of different types of installs using both frontends. The videos
> should be available via the Gentoo bittorrent tracker at
> http://torrents.gentoo.org/. The three install types are:
>
>   * basic: minimal install, dynamic stage3, GRP for logger, cron, and
> bootloader * gnome GRP: dynamic stage3, GRP option, gnome added to extra
> packages * speed test: minimal install, local stage3 tarball, GRP for
> logger, cron, and bootloader
>
> The first two types are both networkless.
>
> As mentioned in the release announcement for 0.2, there is also a web-based
> frontend in the works. It is the profile creation component of the network
> deployment system called GLIMD (Gentoo Linux Installation Management
> Daemon). GLIMD is designed to deploy multiple machines (optionally with
> different profiles) simultaneously. While we have had a few successful test
> installs with this method, it is still *extremely* alpha.
>
> --
> Andrew Gaffney                            http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/
> Gentoo Linux Developer                                   Installer Project

-- 
Kannan Shah
  kannan@minerva.ece.drexel.edu
  shahkannan@gmail.com
  610.653.7482
  http://k-dimensions.blogspot.com/

Data Fusion Laboratory
  http://dfl.ece.drexel.edu/
-- 
gentoo-installer@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-installer] version 0.3 of the Gentoo Linux Installer

[Andrew Gaffney]

Kannan Shah wrote:
> Congradulations on the new release, I'm looking forward to using it! 
> 
> Is there any chance that an install with KDE instead of Gnome (i.e. KDE GRP?) 
> could be included in the future?
> 
> If no, then what are the reasons that Gnome gets more support from you than 
> KDE? 
> 
> I'll appreciate your response. 

When the Gentoo LiveDVD is available (probably 2006.1), both KDE and GNOME 
(along with stuff like enlightenment, fluxbox, xfce, windowmaker, etc.) will be 
available. Only one could be included on the LiveCD for space reasons, and the 
person who build the LiveCD prefers GNOME ;)

-- 
Andrew Gaffney                            http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/
Gentoo Linux Developer                                   Installer Project
-- 
gentoo-installer@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-installer] version 0.3 of the Gentoo Linux Installer

[Norman Rieß]

Hello

Great Installer. I tried it right after i finished downloading the 2006.0.
But i have a question though. I recognized that the use flags are set to 
"X" and "Gnome" (and so on) by default.
Later in the "Extra Packages" screen you can choose other  desktop 
environments or perhaps no x at all.

Would it not be nice, if the flags are set after you choose your desktop 
environment or the other packages?
If one chooses KDE as desktop the useflag could switch from gnome to 
kde. If no x11 is chosen, the flag isn´t set so "+X" either.

Same thing on the "Startup Services". I can choose some daemons to start 
up, that are not even installed. I find this a little disturbing.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

Best regards

Norman

-- 
gentoo-installer@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-installer] version 0.3 of the Gentoo Linux Installer

[Andrew Gaffney]

Norman Rieß wrote:
> Hello
> 
> Great Installer. I tried it right after i finished downloading the 2006.0.
> But i have a question though. I recognized that the use flags are set to 
> "X" and "Gnome" (and so on) by default.
> Later in the "Extra Packages" screen you can choose other  desktop 
> environments or perhaps no x at all.
> 
> Would it not be nice, if the flags are set after you choose your desktop 
> environment or the other packages?
> If one chooses KDE as desktop the useflag could switch from gnome to 
> kde. If no x11 is chosen, the flag isn´t set so "+X" either.

This is the same as doing an install by hand.

> Same thing on the "Startup Services". I can choose some daemons to start 
> up, that are not even installed. I find this a little disturbing.

Well, it's not possible to know services will be available beforehand, so we 
just give you a bunch of common options (along with adding custom ones in the 
future). Ones that don't exist will be ignored during the install.

-- 
Andrew Gaffney                            http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/
Gentoo Linux Developer                                   Installer Project

-- 
gentoo-installer@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-installer] version 0.3 of the Gentoo Linux Installer

[Norman Rieß]

Andrew Gaffney schrieb:

> Norman Rieß wrote:
>
>> Hello
>>
>> Great Installer. I tried it right after i finished downloading the 
>> 2006.0.
>> But i have a question though. I recognized that the use flags are set 
>> to "X" and "Gnome" (and so on) by default.
>> Later in the "Extra Packages" screen you can choose other  desktop 
>> environments or perhaps no x at all.
>>
>> Would it not be nice, if the flags are set after you choose your 
>> desktop environment or the other packages?
>> If one chooses KDE as desktop the useflag could switch from gnome to 
>> kde. If no x11 is chosen, the flag isn´t set so "+X" either.
>
>
> This is the same as doing an install by hand.

I don´t see why this is.

>
>> Same thing on the "Startup Services". I can choose some daemons to 
>> start up, that are not even installed. I find this a little disturbing.
>
>
> Well, it's not possible to know services will be available beforehand, 
> so we just give you a bunch of common options (along with adding 
> custom ones in the future). Ones that don't exist will be ignored 
> during the install.
>
True, but if i do not click the ProFTPd in the selection screen, you can 
assume, that there is no ProFTPd installed to start automatically. This 
way you can filter out not all, but some unlogic choices.
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Re: [gentoo-installer] version 0.3 of the Gentoo Linux Installer

[Norman Rieß]

Andrew Gaffney schrieb:

> Norman Rieß wrote:
>
>> Hello
>>
>> Great Installer. I tried it right after i finished downloading the 
>> 2006.0.
>> But i have a question though. I recognized that the use flags are set 
>> to "X" and "Gnome" (and so on) by default.
>> Later in the "Extra Packages" screen you can choose other  desktop 
>> environments or perhaps no x at all.
>>
>> Would it not be nice, if the flags are set after you choose your 
>> desktop environment or the other packages?
>> If one chooses KDE as desktop the useflag could switch from gnome to 
>> kde. If no x11 is chosen, the flag isn´t set so "+X" either.
>
>
> This is the same as doing an install by hand.

I don´t see why this is.

>
>> Same thing on the "Startup Services". I can choose some daemons to 
>> start up, that are not even installed. I find this a little disturbing.
>
>
> Well, it's not possible to know services will be available beforehand, 
> so we just give you a bunch of common options (along with adding 
> custom ones in the future). Ones that don't exist will be ignored 
> during the install.
>
True, but if i do not click the ProFTPd in the selection screen, you can
assume, that there is no ProFTPd installed to start automatically. This
way you can filter out not all, but some unlogic choices.

-- 
gentoo-installer@gentoo.org mailing list

RE: [gentoo-installer] version 0.3 of the Gentoo Linux Installer

[LinuxMan]

I agree with Norman, why show something if it's not relevant. It just
confuses things. Shouldn't be to hard to comment out un-related options
based on the users previous input.

-----Original Message-----
From: Norman Rieß [mailto:norman@smash-net.org]
Sent: 27 February 2006 21:34
To: gentoo-installer@lists.gentoo.org
Subject: Re: [gentoo-installer] version 0.3 of the Gentoo Linux
Installer


Andrew Gaffney schrieb:

> Norman Rieß wrote:
>
>> Hello
>>
>> Great Installer. I tried it right after i finished downloading the
>> 2006.0.
>> But i have a question though. I recognized that the use flags are set
>> to "X" and "Gnome" (and so on) by default.
>> Later in the "Extra Packages" screen you can choose other  desktop
>> environments or perhaps no x at all.
>>
>> Would it not be nice, if the flags are set after you choose your
>> desktop environment or the other packages?
>> If one chooses KDE as desktop the useflag could switch from gnome to
>> kde. If no x11 is chosen, the flag isn´t set so "+X" either.
>
>
> This is the same as doing an install by hand.

I don´t see why this is.

>
>> Same thing on the "Startup Services". I can choose some daemons to
>> start up, that are not even installed. I find this a little disturbing.
>
>
> Well, it's not possible to know services will be available beforehand,
> so we just give you a bunch of common options (along with adding
> custom ones in the future). Ones that don't exist will be ignored
> during the install.
>
True, but if i do not click the ProFTPd in the selection screen, you can
assume, that there is no ProFTPd installed to start automatically. This
way you can filter out not all, but some unlogic choices.
--
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Re: [gentoo-installer] version 0.3 of the Gentoo Linux Installer

[Andrew Gaffney]

LinuxMan wrote:
> I agree with Norman, why show something if it's not relevant. It just
> confuses things. Shouldn't be to hard to comment out un-related options
> based on the users previous input.

Because the installer has no way to know what isn't relevant. While we could 
hardcode the services that every package in the tree at the time of the snapshot 
offers and display them if that package is selected to be emerged, that's just 
kinda dumb. Also, this wouldn't cover the case of people using an up-to-date tree.

-- 
Andrew Gaffney                            http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/
Gentoo Linux Developer                                   Installer Project
-- 
gentoo-installer@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-installer] version 0.3 of the Gentoo Linux Installer

[Norman Rieß]

But see it with the eyes of a random Gentoo beginner.
You come to the "USE Flags" screen seeing some settings. You think "That
are surely some nice settings. Otherwise they wouldn´t be set as default".
But then you choose KDE. Now you have a KDE system with "+gnome -kde" as
USE Flags.

The installer should build a USE-flag suggestion out of the previous user
input.
You didn´t select samba to be installed, so the "samba" USE-Flag isn´t set
by default.
You have no xorg selected, so why suggests the installer "X" as USE-flag.
This is simply not right!

You could say. "These users should know what flags to set".
And some will, no doubt. But many people will say "Uhh. They have an
installer now. Let´s try Gentoo". (It allready started, look at some
tech-forums ;-))
And some of these people will install a system with simply wrong USE-flags.


> LinuxMan wrote:
>> I agree with Norman, why show something if it's not relevant. It just
>> confuses things. Shouldn't be to hard to comment out un-related options
>> based on the users previous input.
>
> Because the installer has no way to know what isn't relevant. While we
> could
> hardcode the services that every package in the tree at the time of the
> snapshot
> offers and display them if that package is selected to be emerged, that's
> just
> kinda dumb. Also, this wouldn't cover the case of people using an
> up-to-date tree.
>
> --
> Andrew Gaffney                            http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/
> Gentoo Linux Developer                                   Installer Project
> --
> gentoo-installer@gentoo.org mailing list
>
>


-- 
gentoo-installer@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-installer] version 0.3 of the Gentoo Linux Installer

[Simon Stelling]

Norman Rieß wrote:
> But see it with the eyes of a random Gentoo beginner.
> You come to the "USE Flags" screen seeing some settings. You think "That
> are surely some nice settings. Otherwise they wouldn´t be set as default".
> But then you choose KDE. Now you have a KDE system with "+gnome -kde" as
> USE Flags.

If people are not willing to read documentation, that's their fault. Being a
newbie or a sysadmin++, it doesn't matter.

Regards,

-- 
Simon Stelling
Gentoo/AMD64 Operational Co-Lead
blubb@gentoo.org
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Re: [gentoo-installer] version 0.3 of the Gentoo Linux Installer

[Andrew Gaffney]

Simon Stelling wrote:
> Norman Rieß wrote:
>> But see it with the eyes of a random Gentoo beginner.
>> You come to the "USE Flags" screen seeing some settings. You think "That
>> are surely some nice settings. Otherwise they wouldn´t be set as default".
>> But then you choose KDE. Now you have a KDE system with "+gnome -kde" as
>> USE Flags.
> 
> If people are not willing to read documentation, that's their fault. Being a
> newbie or a sysadmin++, it doesn't matter.

You took the words from my mouth.

-- 
Andrew Gaffney                            http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/
Gentoo Linux Developer                                   Installer Project

-- 
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RE: [gentoo-installer] version 0.3 of the Gentoo Linux Installer

[LinuxMan]

What sort of attitude is that to tempt new users to Gentoo, or anyone for
that matter. Surely the installer should be aiming to make installation not
just easier but also easier and better than the rest. Otherwise what's the
point? If that's your attitude you might as well not bothered with the
installer and just told everyone to read the manual instead!! I think Norman
has a valid point and your answer doesn't do his question justice. I'm
concerned that there are potential new users who could add to Gentoo, who
are going elsewhere because of confusing options and attitudes that don't
help anyone.


-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Gaffney [mailto:agaffney@gentoo.org]
Sent: 28 February 2006 16:00
To: gentoo-installer@lists.gentoo.org
Subject: Re: [gentoo-installer] version 0.3 of the Gentoo Linux
Installer


Simon Stelling wrote:
> Norman Rieß wrote:
>> But see it with the eyes of a random Gentoo beginner.
>> You come to the "USE Flags" screen seeing some settings. You think "That
>> are surely some nice settings. Otherwise they wouldn´t be set as
default".
>> But then you choose KDE. Now you have a KDE system with "+gnome -kde" as
>> USE Flags.
>
> If people are not willing to read documentation, that's their fault. Being
a
> newbie or a sysadmin++, it doesn't matter.

You took the words from my mouth.

--
Andrew Gaffney                            http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/
Gentoo Linux Developer                                   Installer Project

--
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Re: [gentoo-installer] version 0.3 of the Gentoo Linux Installer

[Ashley McConnell]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2092 bytes --]

Isn't it intuitive anyways to have the programs selected to be added to use
flags? it just makes sense wether or not someone reads the manual

On 2/28/06, LinuxMan <linuxman@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
>
> What sort of attitude is that to tempt new users to Gentoo, or anyone for
> that matter. Surely the installer should be aiming to make installation
> not
> just easier but also easier and better than the rest. Otherwise what's the
> point? If that's your attitude you might as well not bothered with the
> installer and just told everyone to read the manual instead!! I think
> Norman
> has a valid point and your answer doesn't do his question justice. I'm
> concerned that there are potential new users who could add to Gentoo, who
> are going elsewhere because of confusing options and attitudes that don't
> help anyone.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andrew Gaffney [mailto:agaffney@gentoo.org]
> Sent: 28 February 2006 16:00
> To: gentoo-installer@lists.gentoo.org
> Subject: Re: [gentoo-installer] version 0.3 of the Gentoo Linux
> Installer
>
>
> Simon Stelling wrote:
> > Norman Rieß wrote:
> >> But see it with the eyes of a random Gentoo beginner.
> >> You come to the "USE Flags" screen seeing some settings. You think
> "That
> >> are surely some nice settings. Otherwise they wouldn´t be set as
> default".
> >> But then you choose KDE. Now you have a KDE system with "+gnome -kde"
> as
> >> USE Flags.
> >
> > If people are not willing to read documentation, that's their fault.
> Being
> a
> > newbie or a sysadmin++, it doesn't matter.
>
> You took the words from my mouth.
>
> --
> Andrew Gaffney                            http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/
> Gentoo Linux Developer                                   Installer Project
>
> --
> gentoo-installer@gentoo.org mailing list
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.1.0/269 - Release Date: 24/02/2006
>
>
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> gentoo-installer@gentoo.org mailing list
>
>

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Re: [gentoo-installer] version 0.3 of the Gentoo Linux Installer

[Norman Rieß]

Andrew Gaffney schrieb:

> Simon Stelling wrote:
>
>> Norman Rieß wrote:
>>
>>> But see it with the eyes of a random Gentoo beginner.
>>> You come to the "USE Flags" screen seeing some settings. You think 
>>> "That
>>> are surely some nice settings. Otherwise they wouldn´t be set as 
>>> default".
>>> But then you choose KDE. Now you have a KDE system with "+gnome 
>>> -kde" as
>>> USE Flags.
>>
>>
>> If people are not willing to read documentation, that's their fault. 
>> Being a
>> newbie or a sysadmin++, it doesn't matter.
>
>
> You took the words from my mouth.
>
Right. But some WILL NOT read the documentation and they WILL create a 
crapy system.
And then they WILL run to the forums. And guys like you WILL tell them 
to RTFM.
And they will tell their friends what a crapy system Gentoo is and what 
jerks these Gentoo users are.

Seriously give them a nice default system and tell them later in a nicer 
way to read how to extend the system.


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Re: [gentoo-installer] version 0.3 of the Gentoo Linux Installer

[Andrew Gaffney]

Norman Rieß wrote:
> Andrew Gaffney schrieb:
> 
>> Simon Stelling wrote:
>>
>>> Norman Rieß wrote:
>>>
>>>> But see it with the eyes of a random Gentoo beginner.
>>>> You come to the "USE Flags" screen seeing some settings. You think 
>>>> "That
>>>> are surely some nice settings. Otherwise they wouldn´t be set as 
>>>> default".
>>>> But then you choose KDE. Now you have a KDE system with "+gnome 
>>>> -kde" as
>>>> USE Flags.
>>>
>>>
>>> If people are not willing to read documentation, that's their fault. 
>>> Being a
>>> newbie or a sysadmin++, it doesn't matter.
>>
>>
>> You took the words from my mouth.
>>
> Right. But some WILL NOT read the documentation and they WILL create a 
> crapy system.
> And then they WILL run to the forums. And guys like you WILL tell them 
> to RTFM.
> And they will tell their friends what a crapy system Gentoo is and what 
> jerks these Gentoo users are.
> 
> Seriously give them a nice default system and tell them later in a nicer 
> way to read how to extend the system.

How is that any different than a "manual" install? Many people don't read the 
handbook completely and then complain loudly about how Gentoo sucks.

-- 
Andrew Gaffney                            http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/
Gentoo Linux Developer                                   Installer Project

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Re: [gentoo-installer] version 0.3 of the Gentoo Linux Installer

[Norman Rieß]

Andrew Gaffney schrieb:

> Norman Rieß wrote:
>
>> Andrew Gaffney schrieb:
>>
>>> Simon Stelling wrote:
>>>
>>>> Norman Rieß wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> But see it with the eyes of a random Gentoo beginner.
>>>>> You come to the "USE Flags" screen seeing some settings. You think 
>>>>> "That
>>>>> are surely some nice settings. Otherwise they wouldn´t be set as 
>>>>> default".
>>>>> But then you choose KDE. Now you have a KDE system with "+gnome 
>>>>> -kde" as
>>>>> USE Flags.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If people are not willing to read documentation, that's their 
>>>> fault. Being a
>>>> newbie or a sysadmin++, it doesn't matter.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You took the words from my mouth.
>>>
>> Right. But some WILL NOT read the documentation and they WILL create 
>> a crapy system.
>> And then they WILL run to the forums. And guys like you WILL tell 
>> them to RTFM.
>> And they will tell their friends what a crapy system Gentoo is and 
>> what jerks these Gentoo users are.
>>
>> Seriously give them a nice default system and tell them later in a 
>> nicer way to read how to extend the system.
>
>
> How is that any different than a "manual" install? Many people don't 
> read the handbook completely and then complain loudly about how Gentoo 
> sucks.
>
Exactly LinuxMan´s an my point, isn´t it?
Setting the right USE-Flags based on the users software-selection is not 
only intuitive like Ashley said, it will/could prevent people from 
building shitty systems.
If you want the installer to be a "alternative manual install", why 
write it in the first place?
I thought it is writen to automise the installation, not "redefine" the 
manual one.
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Re: [gentoo-installer] version 0.3 of the Gentoo Linux Installer

[Donnie Berkholz]

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Norman Rieß wrote:
> Exactly LinuxMan´s an my point, isn´t it?
> Setting the right USE-Flags based on the users software-selection is not
> only intuitive like Ashley said, it will/could prevent people from
> building shitty systems.
> If you want the installer to be a "alternative manual install", why
> write it in the first place?
> I thought it is writen to automise the installation, not "redefine" the
> manual one.

The portage team just got rid of exactly this capability for creating
difficult to reproduce USE flag setups, because they were dynamic, based
on what's installed rather than set unconditionally in make.conf.

So it's a difficult argument to say we should re-add it into the installer.

Thanks,
Donnie


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Re: [gentoo-installer] version 0.3 of the Gentoo Linux Installer

[Norman Rieß]

Donnie Berkholz schrieb:

>
>
>The portage team just got rid of exactly this capability for creating
>difficult to reproduce USE flag setups, because they were dynamic, based
>on what's installed rather than set unconditionally in make.conf.
>
>So it's a difficult argument to say we should re-add it into the installer.
>
>Thanks,
>Donnie
>
>  
>
Why difficult to reproduce? Same software should create same USE-flag 
settings.
I find it a little funny, that an official installer installes a perhaps 
not working system "by default".
I think that misses the point of an installer!
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Re: [gentoo-installer] version 0.3 of the Gentoo Linux Installer

[Andrew Gaffney]

Norman Rieß wrote:
> Donnie Berkholz schrieb:
> 
>>
>>
>> The portage team just got rid of exactly this capability for creating
>> difficult to reproduce USE flag setups, because they were dynamic, based
>> on what's installed rather than set unconditionally in make.conf.
>>
>> So it's a difficult argument to say we should re-add it into the 
>> installer.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Donnie
>>
>>  
>>
> Why difficult to reproduce? Same software should create same USE-flag 
> settings.
> I find it a little funny, that an official installer installes a perhaps 
> not working system "by default".
> I think that misses the point of an installer!

USE flags control optional stuff. If something doesn't work because of a missing 
USE flag, that's a bug with that particular ebuild.

-- 
Andrew Gaffney                            http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/
Gentoo Linux Developer                                   Installer Project

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Re: [gentoo-installer] version 0.3 of the Gentoo Linux Installer

[Norman Rieß]

Andrew Gaffney schrieb:

> Norman Rieß wrote:
>
>> Donnie Berkholz schrieb:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The portage team just got rid of exactly this capability for creating
>>> difficult to reproduce USE flag setups, because they were dynamic, 
>>> based
>>> on what's installed rather than set unconditionally in make.conf.
>>>
>>> So it's a difficult argument to say we should re-add it into the 
>>> installer.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Donnie
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>> Why difficult to reproduce? Same software should create same USE-flag 
>> settings.
>> I find it a little funny, that an official installer installes a 
>> perhaps not working system "by default".
>> I think that misses the point of an installer!
>
>
> USE flags control optional stuff. If something doesn't work because of 
> a missing USE flag, that's a bug with that particular ebuild.
>
Ok, than let it miss, don´t set it wrong!
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Re: [gentoo-installer] version 0.3 of the Gentoo Linux Installer

[Revrend Oddball]

but this would sort of sidestep the entire point of gentoo..

from what i understand gentoo has always been about giving a user all teh
options and the documentation to learn and act on their own. if you do not wish
to follow this base idea then go with something else like suse or fedora.

the rule of thumb i have always gone with if i dont know what an option is then
i leave it the heck alone or read the manual to find out what it is.

its not like they make it hard to get a list of what the use flags are. Maybe
instead of making them go away simply make a to the manual on use flags. gently
suggesting to the user to rtfm but ultimately the idea is to read the
documentation.

--- Norman Rie� <norman@smash-net.org> wrote:

> Andrew Gaffney schrieb:
> 
> > Simon Stelling wrote:
> >
> >> Norman Rie� wrote:
> >>
> >>> But see it with the eyes of a random Gentoo beginner.
> >>> You come to the "USE Flags" screen seeing some settings. You think 
> >>> "That
> >>> are surely some nice settings. Otherwise they wouldn�t be set as 
> >>> default".
> >>> But then you choose KDE. Now you have a KDE system with "+gnome 
> >>> -kde" as
> >>> USE Flags.
> >>
> >>
> >> If people are not willing to read documentation, that's their fault. 
> >> Being a
> >> newbie or a sysadmin++, it doesn't matter.
> >
> >
> > You took the words from my mouth.
> >
> Right. But some WILL NOT read the documentation and they WILL create a 
> crapy system.
> And then they WILL run to the forums. And guys like you WILL tell them 
> to RTFM.
> And they will tell their friends what a crapy system Gentoo is and what 
> jerks these Gentoo users are.
> 
> Seriously give them a nice default system and tell them later in a nicer 
> way to read how to extend the system.
> 
> 
> -- 
> gentoo-installer@gentoo.org mailing list
> 
> 



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                Stephen Partington
                

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Re: [gentoo-installer] version 0.3 of the Gentoo Linux Installer

[Ben Urban]

I'm sorry, but I feel I must weigh in here...

This entire thread is pointless, since the list of available USE flags
depends entirely on what portage tree is used, and the installer cannot
know that until the install has already started.

Having said that, the installer was *not* written to make installation
easier for the user, but instead to make the process automated, to allow
for mass deployments and such.  Any user-friendliness you may be
experiencing is simply a result of an effort on the developers' part to
make it as easy on system administrators as possible.

As far as the issue of reading the documentation goes, I agree with
Oddball; those who can't or aren't willing to read the manual should not
be using Gentoo.  No matter how much you may want it to, a single
distribution can't fit everybody perfectly.  If a distribution tries to
accommodate everyone, it will tend to die.  That's just a fact of life.
Deal with it.

On Tue, 2006-02-28 at 14:03 -0800, Revrend Oddball wrote:
> but this would sort of sidestep the entire point of gentoo..
> 
> from what i understand gentoo has always been about giving a user all teh
> options and the documentation to learn and act on their own. if you do not wish
> to follow this base idea then go with something else like suse or fedora.
> 
> the rule of thumb i have always gone with if i dont know what an option is then
> i leave it the heck alone or read the manual to find out what it is.
> 
> its not like they make it hard to get a list of what the use flags are. Maybe
> instead of making them go away simply make a to the manual on use flags. gently
> suggesting to the user to rtfm but ultimately the idea is to read the
> documentation.
> 


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Re: [gentoo-installer] version 0.3 of the Gentoo Linux Installer

[Norman Rieß]

Well we seem to have different opinions about installers and have to
accept that.


> I'm sorry, but I feel I must weigh in here...
>
> This entire thread is pointless, since the list of available USE flags
> depends entirely on what portage tree is used, and the installer cannot
> know that until the install has already started.
>
> Having said that, the installer was *not* written to make installation
> easier for the user, but instead to make the process automated, to allow
> for mass deployments and such.  Any user-friendliness you may be
> experiencing is simply a result of an effort on the developers' part to
> make it as easy on system administrators as possible.
>
> As far as the issue of reading the documentation goes, I agree with
> Oddball; those who can't or aren't willing to read the manual should not
> be using Gentoo.  No matter how much you may want it to, a single
> distribution can't fit everybody perfectly.  If a distribution tries to
> accommodate everyone, it will tend to die.  That's just a fact of life.
> Deal with it.
>
> On Tue, 2006-02-28 at 14:03 -0800, Revrend Oddball wrote:
>> but this would sort of sidestep the entire point of gentoo..
>>
>> from what i understand gentoo has always been about giving a user all
>> teh
>> options and the documentation to learn and act on their own. if you do
>> not wish
>> to follow this base idea then go with something else like suse or
>> fedora.
>>
>> the rule of thumb i have always gone with if i dont know what an option
>> is then
>> i leave it the heck alone or read the manual to find out what it is.
>>
>> its not like they make it hard to get a list of what the use flags are.
>> Maybe
>> instead of making them go away simply make a to the manual on use flags.
>> gently
>> suggesting to the user to rtfm but ultimately the idea is to read the
>> documentation.
>>
>
>
> --
> gentoo-installer@gentoo.org mailing list
>
>


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RE: [gentoo-installer] version 0.3 of the Gentoo Linux Installer

[LinuxMan]

Thanks for clarifying your perspective Simon. But I think if this is the
general feeling and reason for the Gentoo Live Installer then your point
should be emphasised more to the Linux community at large. When Distrowatch
and others release statements about the new live installer then your
subjecting yourselves to be influxed with new users who think it's the
answer to their prayers. It's these hundreds, probably thousands of users
who need to know that 'Live Installer' in Gentoo speak is not the same as
'Live Installer' in PClinuxOS speak. In defence of the GLI I guess there is
no set boundaries as to what a Live Installer should exactly do.

I personally think the GLI is a massive improvement over traditional
methods, but still think the term 'Live Installer' is somewhat mis-leading
to new users. And I think you should care about what people think, and also
if they prefer another distro because without people/users Gentoo is dead.


-----Original Message-----
From: Simon Stelling [mailto:blubb@gentoo.org]
Sent: 01 March 2006 12:53
To: linuxman@dsl.pipex.com
Subject: Re: [gentoo-installer] version 0.3 of the Gentoo Linux
Installer


Hi,

LinuxMan wrote:
> What sort of attitude is that to tempt new users to Gentoo, or anyone for
> that matter. Surely the installer should be aiming to make installation
not
> just easier but also easier and better than the rest. Otherwise what's the
> point? If that's your attitude you might as well not bothered with the
> installer and just told everyone to read the manual instead!! I think
Norman
> has a valid point and your answer doesn't do his question justice. I'm
> concerned that there are potential new users who could add to Gentoo, who
> are going elsewhere because of confusing options and attitudes that don't
> help anyone.

Right, there are some very different opinions floating around in this
thread,
and they definitvely need some explanation. Let me try to explain my
personal
mentality towards this topic, I'm sure it'll help you to understand certain
decisions:

I've been a Gentoo developer for 1.5 years, working mostly 3 hours/day on
Gentoo, which makes a total of ~1650 hours. If I would only get $10 per
hour,
that would make at least ~$16'000. Doing volunteer work is pretty strange in
a
capitalistic system. Why should I do a lot of work for free? Of course not
because I'm just a great guy. The main reasons why I do work on OSS are:

* It's fun digging around in source code.
* It's fun being part of a great community.
* It's a great way to learn new stuff.
* It's a great way to avoid boredom.

As you see, the most important reason is having fun. I don't care about what
people think of Gentoo. If they think Debian is 10 times better, that's
okay. If
they think Gentoo is the biggest shit on earth and just a waste of time for
everybody, that's okay. I have fun with it, and that's the important thing.

Now, that was the fun part. But there are also a few things that are not so
funny. The most annoying thing I can think of are PEBCAK (problem exists
between
chair and keyboard) problems. You don't know how annoying it is to get
bugged
about a certain problem 100 times although you documented it very well and
even
asked people to read the documentation. It drives you mad. Sadly, there are
a
lot of new users unwilling to read documentation and then think Gentoo sucks
just because they are lazy. You try to solve the problem by making things
easy
enough that it doesn't require documentation. But keep in mind that those
people
will never contribute anything to the project. That's the big difference
between
commercial projects and free ones: I gave the lazy user 1650 hours of my
time,
he gave me nothing but a rant. If he at least gave me 16'000 bucks, the
situation would be a bit different, but he didn't.

People who want to give something back to a project start doing so by
reading
documentation. How could you contribute to a project without understanding
it
anyway? You simply can't.

The installer is a great thing, because it saves a lot of time for me, but
it
was never written to save the time you need to read and understand
documentation. GLI enables me to complete a Gentoo installation within 15
minutes, therefore it is a great thing. It's not a great thing because it
will
make Gentoo more popular or easier to install for newbies that don't want to
read documentation.

I hope I could help you to understand the issue from a dev perspective.

Kind regards,

--
Simon Stelling
Gentoo/AMD64 Operational Co-Lead
blubb@gentoo.org


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