[gentoo-installer] educating users

[gentoo-installer] educating users

[Andrew Gaffney]

This is something that's been in the back of my mind for a while, but I haven't 
really come up with any good solutions for.

With the release of the installer, we will be getting a lot of users who have 
never done a manual install and haven't/won't read the handbook. This is 
obviously not desirable due to the increased amount of dumb questions that will 
flood #gentoo and the gentoo-user ML.

My idea was for a "quiz" from the handbook before the user is allowed to use the 
installer. This would force them to atleast skim the handbook before using the 
installer. This idea has been met with a lot of resistance by other developers, 
even though I had a lot of support for it about 6-8 months back.

Do anyone else have a better idea?

-- 
Andrew Gaffney                            http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/
Gentoo Linux Developer                                   Installer Project
-- 
gentoo-installer@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-installer] educating users

[Michael Crute]

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On 9/18/05, Andrew Gaffney <agaffney@gentoo.org> wrote:
> 
> This is something that's been in the back of my mind for a while, but I 
> haven't
> really come up with any good solutions for.
> 
> With the release of the installer, we will be getting a lot of users who 
> have
> never done a manual install and haven't/won't read the handbook. This is
> obviously not desirable due to the increased amount of dumb questions that 
> will
> flood #gentoo and the gentoo-user ML.
> 
> My idea was for a "quiz" from the handbook before the user is allowed to 
> use the
> installer. This would force them to atleast skim the handbook before using 
> the
> installer. This idea has been met with a lot of resistance by other 
> developers,
> even though I had a lot of support for it about 6-8 months back.
> 
> Do anyone else have a better idea?
> 
> 
Hmm... I'm not sure I know what you are saying about the impending flood of 
noobs but I don't quite agree with the quiz. Perhaps we should have a 
required reading similar to a license agreement that explains the fact 
Gentoo isn't an easy distro for those new to Linux that you have to read to 
use the installer. I'm not sure that there is really a good answer to this 
question. 

-Mike

-- 
________________________________
Michael E. Crute
Software Developer
SoftGroup Development Corporation

Linux, because reboots are for installing hardware.
"In a world without walls and fences, who needs windows and gates?"

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Re: [gentoo-installer] educating users

[Zac Medico]

Andrew Gaffney wrote:
> This is something that's been in the back of my mind for a while, but I
> haven't really come up with any good solutions for.
> 
> With the release of the installer, we will be getting a lot of users who
> have never done a manual install and haven't/won't read the handbook.
> This is obviously not desirable due to the increased amount of dumb
> questions that will flood #gentoo and the gentoo-user ML.
> 
> My idea was for a "quiz" from the handbook before the user is allowed to
> use the installer. This would force them to atleast skim the handbook
> before using the installer. This idea has been met with a lot of
> resistance by other developers, even though I had a lot of support for
> it about 6-8 months back.
> 
> Do anyone else have a better idea?
> 

I am strongly opposed to a quiz because it could possibly put an unnecessary burden on technically qualified people.  I would prefer a strong warning message as suggested by Michael.

If they exist, we will find ways to deal with the "floods of newbies" who disregard the warning.  For example, we could have separate channels/mailing lists for newbies.  If they use the wrong channel/list, then we should politely inform them that they have breached the accepted etiquette standards and point them in the right direction.

Zac
-- 
gentoo-installer@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-installer] educating users

[Łukasz Damentko]

> If they use the wrong channel/list, then we should politely inform them 
> that they have breached the accepted etiquette standards and point them
> in the right direction.

And you will spend whole life on pointing them in right direction... 

I dislike the idea of quiz, i'd prefer opening them handbook page in
firefox at the start of installer's GNOME, just to show what they can
use. As for flood of them to forums or mailing lists, well, it's good
to let noobs help each other, we don't have to answer their
questions... do we? :)

with regards,

Łukasz Damentko

-- 
GDP minion
polish lead translator
-- 
gentoo-installer@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-installer] educating users

[Zac Medico]

Łukasz Damentko wrote:
>>If they use the wrong channel/list, then we should politely inform them 
>>that they have breached the accepted etiquette standards and point them
>>in the right direction.
> 
> 
> And you will spend whole life on pointing them in right direction... 
> 

Well if it is a raging flood, then we have to adapt our strategy.  For example, restrict voice in #gentoo and make people take a quiz in order to subscribe to the gentoo-user mailing list.  There could be newbie channels/lists with fewer requirements.

Zac
-- 
gentoo-installer@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-installer] educating users

[Łukasz Damentko]

On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 17:04:53 -0700
Zac Medico <zmedico@gmail.com> wrote:

> Łukasz Damentko wrote:
> >>If they use the wrong channel/list, then we should politely inform them 
> >>that they have breached the accepted etiquette standards and point them
> >>in the right direction.
> > 
> > 
> > And you will spend whole life on pointing them in right direction... 
> > 
> 
> Well if it is a raging flood, then we have to adapt our strategy.  
> For example, restrict voice in #gentoo and make people take a quiz in
> order to subscribe to the gentoo-user mailing list.  There could be
> newbie channels/lists with fewer requirements.

Do you really think that so many people will suddenly start using
Gentoo that we won't be able to handle them and point to the
appropriate RTFM? :)

Anyways, let's talk about quiz, that's the fun part, what questions
would you like to see in it?

with regards

Łukasz Damentko

-- 
GDP minion
polish lead translator
-- 
gentoo-installer@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-installer] educating users

[Zac Medico]

Łukasz Damentko wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 17:04:53 -0700
> Zac Medico <zmedico@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>>Łukasz Damentko wrote:
>>
>>>>If they use the wrong channel/list, then we should politely inform them 
>>>>that they have breached the accepted etiquette standards and point them
>>>>in the right direction.
>>>
>>>
>>>And you will spend whole life on pointing them in right direction... 
>>>
>>
>>Well if it is a raging flood, then we have to adapt our strategy.  
>>For example, restrict voice in #gentoo and make people take a quiz in
>>order to subscribe to the gentoo-user mailing list.  There could be
>>newbie channels/lists with fewer requirements.
> 
> 
> Do you really think that so many people will suddenly start using
> Gentoo that we won't be able to handle them and point to the
> appropriate RTFM? :)

By "pointing them in the right direction" I meant a quick RTFM or pointing them toward a more appropriate channel/list.

> 
> Anyways, let's talk about quiz, that's the fun part, what questions
> would you like to see in it?

I would suggest that such a quiz would be multiple choice (for automatic scoring) and would test important points covered in various gentoo docs such as the handbook.

Zac
-- 
gentoo-installer@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-installer] educating users

[Nick Dimiduk]

Łukasz Damentko wrote:
> I dislike the idea of quiz, i'd prefer opening them handbook page in
> firefox at the start of installer's GNOME, just to show what they can
> use.

I agree that a pre-install quiz is a poor solution to this perceived 
problem.  This doesn't seem like an appropriate role for the installer. 
  What is to stop people from grabbing a list of correct answers before 
installation begins?  How will public relations be able to put an 
up-spin on the installer not trusting people to be l33t enough to use 
it?  Not good for the community, me thinks.

Gentoo has always come with the disclaimer of being good for learning 
about Linux and open source software.  I don't see why the suggestion of 
prior Linux experience will change with the advent of the installer.

That being said, I know nothing about the installer other than the bits 
I've picked up on list.  Please forgive me if this is spam.

Regards,
-Nick Dimiduk
-- 
gentoo-installer@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-installer] educating users

[Bryan Quigley]

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I am a noob with gentoo and linux. Are you trying to make it harder for me 
to install gentoo, and make it take more time? 
gentoo was my first real attempt at linux, and I installed it as I read the 
handbook. I didnt read and master the handbook before starting the install.
If you believe that someone having trouble with gentoo would ask it on a 
list instead of reading the handbook. Then might they just ask the questions 
from the test?

On 9/19/05, Nick Dimiduk <ndimiduk@gentoo.org> wrote:
> 
> Łukasz Damentko wrote:
> > I dislike the idea of quiz, i'd prefer opening them handbook page in
> > firefox at the start of installer's GNOME, just to show what they can
> > use.
> 
> I agree that a pre-install quiz is a poor solution to this perceived
> problem. This doesn't seem like an appropriate role for the installer.
> What is to stop people from grabbing a list of correct answers before
> installation begins? How will public relations be able to put an
> up-spin on the installer not trusting people to be l33t enough to use
> it? Not good for the community, me thinks.
> 
> Gentoo has always come with the disclaimer of being good for learning
> about Linux and open source software. I don't see why the suggestion of
> prior Linux experience will change with the advent of the installer.
> 
> That being said, I know nothing about the installer other than the bits
> I've picked up on list. Please forgive me if this is spam.
> 
> Regards,
> -Nick Dimiduk
> --
> gentoo-installer@gentoo.org mailing list
> 
>

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Re: [gentoo-installer] educating users

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Mon, 2005-09-19 at 02:07 -0400, Bryan Quigley wrote:
> I am a noob with gentoo and linux.  Are you trying to make it harder
> for me to install gentoo, and make it take more time?

I think what Andrew is trying to do is curb the people out there that
think that using a graphical installer makes Gentoo any easier to
install, when it does not.

> gentoo was my first real attempt at linux, and I installed it as I
> read the handbook.  I didnt read and master the handbook before
> starting the install.

You don't have to read and master it, you just have to follow it.  The
problem here is stemming from people that are refusing to read the
Handbook, then wondering why they can't get Gentoo installed and are
starting to flood our support channels with questions answered in the
Handbook.

> If you believe that someone having trouble with gentoo would ask it on
> a list instead of reading the handbook.   Then might they just ask the
> questions from the test?

Exactly.  This is the reason why I think any kind of quiz would be
pretty pointless.  Perhaps a starting page that tells the user that the
documentation is located in the Handbook and that they should read the
Handbook before asking questions would be good, but anything as
pervasive as a quiz is pretty much wasted time on both the developer's
part and the user's.

Do we need a copy of the Handbook on the CD for use by the installer?
That shouldn't be a problem and is of minimal size.  One other thing
that we will need is information on the installer added to the Handbook,
as right now, a lot of assumptions are made that the users will be able
to translate the command-line options from the Handbook into clicks (or
selections) in the installer front-ends.

Yes, it is going to take a lot of work.  Yes, it is going to suck.  Yes,
I recommend trying to find and bribe one of the docs team members into
being an installer docs monkey for a short while.  ;]

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-installer] educating users

[Paul J. Wilson]

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On 9/19/05, Chris Gianelloni <wolf31o2@gentoo.org> wrote: 
> 
> On Mon, 2005-09-19 at 02:07 -0400, Bryan Quigley wrote:
> > I am a noob with gentoo and linux. Are you trying to make it harder
> > for me to install gentoo, and make it take more time?
> 
> I think what Andrew is trying to do is curb the people out there that
> think that using a graphical installer makes Gentoo any easier to
> install, when it does not.
> 
> > gentoo was my first real attempt at linux, and I installed it as I
> > read the handbook. I didnt read and master the handbook before
> > starting the install.
> 
> You don't have to read and master it, you just have to follow it. The
> problem here is stemming from people that are refusing to read the
> Handbook, then wondering why they can't get Gentoo installed and are
> starting to flood our support channels with questions answered in the
> Handbook.
> 
> > If you believe that someone having trouble with gentoo would ask it on
> > a list instead of reading the handbook. Then might they just ask the
> > questions from the test?
> 
> Exactly. This is the reason why I think any kind of quiz would be
> pretty pointless. Perhaps a starting page that tells the user that the
> documentation is located in the Handbook and that they should read the
> Handbook before asking questions would be good, but anything as
> pervasive as a quiz is pretty much wasted time on both the developer's
> part and the user's.
> 
> Do we need a copy of the Handbook on the CD for use by the installer?
> That shouldn't be a problem and is of minimal size. One other thing
> that we will need is information on the installer added to the Handbook,
> as right now, a lot of assumptions are made that the users will be able
> to translate the command-line options from the Handbook into clicks (or
> selections) in the installer front-ends.
> 
> Yes, it is going to take a lot of work. Yes, it is going to suck. Yes,
> I recommend trying to find and bribe one of the docs team members into
> being an installer docs monkey for a short while. ;]
> 
> --
> Chris Gianelloni
> Release Engineering - Strategic Lead
> Games - Developer
> Gentoo Linux
> 
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Re: [gentoo-installer] educating users

[Michael Miller]

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I dislike the idea of a quiz to use the installer. As much as I hate to 
admit it, I am a "newbie" to gentoo, to some degree. However, I did manage 
to fairly easily install it by reading the handbook. It is pretty much just 
following directions, being very time consuming(took me about 2-3 days to 
get my first gentoo box up). I think personally, that a special guide should 
be written for the installer detailing everything needed to be done. If you 
are very insistant upon getting rid of the "newbies" in the IRC channel, and 
insist on having some kind of quiz, I'd make a quiz to enter the IRC 
channel.
 Not to rant on, but my stance on gentoo, albeit against many of the 
developers, is that it is a fast operating system. That is, in my view, the 
only thing seperating it from other distros save for portage. Many people 
like to tweak every last bit of performance out of gentoo, which is great! 
However, I think gentoo should indeed be more user friendly. Don't get me 
wrong-I CAN install gentoo, and edit configuration files, but it is very 
time consuming, and not time efficent for me. I wish gentoo was very easy to 
install(like redhat), and included an easy to use configuration tweaker 
where you could EASILY change your cflags for basic optimizations for 
specific processors(you could select p4, amd64, etc etc). You would of 
course be able to manually edit it as well. The thing that I find so 
daunting about linux, as compared to windows, is the fact that you have to 
know what almost every single file does. Wanna change your sound card? You 
have to know where /etc/alsa is. It is these kinds of things that frustrate 
me. Don't get me wrong, I know MANY, if not all but me on this mailing list, 
are opposed to catering to end users who don't want to have to memorize a 40 
page guide to know how to install gentoo in their head, but I think it would 
be a good idea to have gentoo easy to configure. I'm not saying someone who 
doesn't know how to install Windows will know how to setup and run a gentoo 
installation, but I think it should be easier to run then it currently is.
 On another side note I things that the thing that is blocking linux from 
the end user are application installation, and driver installation. Come up 
with an easy way to do both of these, and i'll never use win32 again :). 
 Again, I want to reidorate, I realize that the main focus of gentoo is to 
cater to so called "power users" who know everything about Linux, and tweak 
everything in it. I just wish that I could have a tweakable operating system 
without reading 40 pages each time I installed it!
 Sorry for the long rant :),
Mike

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Re: [gentoo-installer] educating users

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Mon, 2005-09-19 at 16:41 -0400, Michael Miller wrote:
> Not to rant on, but my stance on gentoo, albeit against many of the
> developers, is that it is a fast operating system. That is, in my

Gentoo, under most circumstances, is not any faster than any other
distribution.  In fact, in most cases, other distributions are faster
due to their heavy use of prelink.

>  view, the only thing seperating it from other distros save for
> portage. Many people like to tweak every last bit of performance out

I'm sorry to hear that you missed out on the most important part of
Gentoo, and that is empowering you to use your system as you like and
configure it how you wish.

>  of gentoo, which is great! However, I think gentoo should indeed be
> more user friendly. Don't get me wrong-I CAN install gentoo, and edit
> configuration files, but it is very time consuming, and not time
> efficent for me. I wish gentoo was very easy to install(like redhat),

That isn't the reason for this project, nor will it ever be.  Gentoo
will never be easy to install simply because we don't make decisions for
you.  This means there will *always* be a huge installation guide and
lots of options to chose from.  Sure, we could take away all decisions
and make it a simple "Next, Next, Next, Finish" installer like Red Hat
or Windows, but that would kill Gentoo's primary advantage.

>  and included an easy to use configuration tweaker where you could
> EASILY change your cflags for basic optimizations for specific
> processors(you could select p4, amd64, etc etc). You would of course

Well, considering the only CFLAGS option you ever really need to change
is -march, I don't see the issue.  See, us developers don't recommend
anything further than "-O2 -march=${subarch} -pipe" for any
installation.  Funny enough, that is what the stages default to, anyway.
Amazing how that works, isn't it?  *grin*

Also, a configuration tool is beyond the scope of the installer project,
at least currently.  This project is for the design of a rapid
deployment tool for Gentoo.

>  be able to manually edit it as well. The thing that I find so
> daunting about linux, as compared to windows, is the fact that you
> have to know what almost every single file does. Wanna change your
> sound card? You have to know where /etc/alsa is. It is these kinds of

You know that many consider this to be one of the primary reasons *for*
using Linux, right?  I'd rather know what every file on my system does
than have 2GB of crap in "System32" that I'm not allowed to touch or
look at for fear of it completely hosing up my system.

>  things that frustrate me. Don't get me wrong, I know MANY, if not all
> but me on this mailing list, are opposed to catering to end users who
> don't want to have to memorize a 40 page guide to know how to install
> gentoo in their head, but I think it would be a good idea to have
> gentoo easy to configure. I'm not saying someone who doesn't know how

Well, we probably cater to "end users" more than most distributions,
through our excellent documentation.  Nobody expects you to remember it
all.  That's why we put the documentation on all of our release media.
We also have it available online in several forms.  We even translate it
into a bunch of languages, for non-English speakers.

The main thing to understand is that Linux is complex, as is any
operating system.  A computer is not a simple device like a TV or VCR.
Instead it is a complex system of interconnected parts.  You cannot
treat it like an appliance and expect to get good results from it.  This
is why we have such a dearth of information available at your disposal.

>  to install Windows will know how to setup and run a gentoo
> installation, but I think it should be easier to run then it currently
> is.

There's no skill involved in installing Windows, nor Gentoo.  If you can
click "Next" then you can install Windows.  If you can read and follow
directions, then you can install Gentoo.  It requires no real critical
thinking to follow instructions.  ;]

> On another side note I things that the thing that is blocking linux
> from the end user are application installation, and driver
> installation. Come up with an easy way to do both of these, and i'll
> never use win32 again :).

emerge $program?

genkernel all?

How much easier can it be?  I mean, we already beat the snot out of
Windows for usability.  Want Mozilla Firefox?  Type "emerge
mozilla-firefox" and wait.  If you wanted to do the same thing under
Windows, you would need to open a web browser, surf to
www.mozilla.org/firefox, grab a zip file of firefox, unzip it (hoping
you have an application to do so), run setup.exe, click "Next" 50
bazillion times, then click on "Finish".  This is a massive number of
steps to do a simple task, yet people claim that Linux is too hard to
use.

How about adding drivers?  Well, if you use genkernel, then you'll have
every driver pre-configured and ready to go on your system, minus one or
two minor things (yeah, graphics drivers suck).  If you follow the
Handbook and install coldplug, then you'll have 0 configuration to do.

> Again, I want to reidorate, I realize that the main focus of gentoo is
> to cater to so called "power users" who know everything about Linux,

No.  The main focus of Gentoo is to *empower* *all* users to do what
they want with Linux.  This can be anyone from a person who has never
touched Linux to a 30-year Unix veteran.  You aren't required to really
know what you're doing to use Gentoo.  You're just required to read and
comprehend.

>  and tweak everything in it. I just wish that I could have a tweakable
> operating system without reading 40 pages each time I installed it!

Feel free to write one.

One thing I always find humorous is the comparisons with Windows and
Linux where everyone claims Windows is easier.  It isn't.  In most cases
you have to do at *least* twice as much work to get something done.  The
main issue is that you're already *used* to doing all of that work, so
it doesn't *seem* like you're doing so much work.  Take my Firefox
example above and you'll understand what I mean.

Anyway, this is *way* off-topic for this list, so I'll shut up now.  ;]

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-installer] educating users

[Donnie Berkholz]

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Chris Gianelloni wrote:
| Gentoo, under most circumstances, is not any faster than any other
| distribution.  In fact, in most cases, other distributions are faster
| due to their heavy use of prelink.

Just FEATURES="prelink" mostly equalizes that.

Thanks,
Donnie
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Re: [gentoo-installer] educating users

[mike.gross]

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On 9/19/05, Donnie Berkholz <spyderous@gentoo.org> wrote:
> 
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> Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> | Gentoo, under most circumstances, is not any faster than any other
> | distribution. In fact, in most cases, other distributions are faster
> | due to their heavy use of prelink.
> 
> Just FEATURES="prelink" mostly equalizes that.
> 
> Thanks,
> Donnie
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> --
> gentoo-installer@gentoo.org mailing list
> 
> 
It seems to me that it would be a very good idea to plant the Gentoo 
handbook right in front in a browser when the desktop comes up. Or at least 
put a link to it on the desktop. Give the noobs a fighting chance!

-- 
"99% of the people in this world are fools, and the rest of us are in great 
danger of contagion."

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Re: [gentoo-installer] educating users

[Erick Michau]

Donnie Berkholz wrote:

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> Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> | Gentoo, under most circumstances, is not any faster than any other
> | distribution.  In fact, in most cases, other distributions are faster
> | due to their heavy use of prelink.
>
> Just FEATURES="prelink" mostly equalizes that.
>
> Thanks,
> Donnie
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Hi Donnie,

I know it's a bit off topic here, but "You do not need to set
FEATURES="prelink" in your make.conf file; Portage will automatically
support prelink if it can find the prelink binary."
You only need to "emerge prelink && env-update"
>From the prelink guide.( http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/prelink-howto.xml )
Just for people information..

Thanks, Erick
(btw greetings for X modularized, very good piece of hard work).
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Re: [gentoo-installer] educating users

[Paul J. Wilson]

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The way I see it, the problem is not about the gentoo installer, but a 
problem of perceptions between the developers and the users. There is a 
further division between the "power users" and the "noobs".

It's easier said than done, but each side should step outside their own 
experience. To a developer, "easy" meains opening VI and drawing on their 
knowledge of hot keys and bash syntax. To the average user, "easy" means 
selecting options from a menu , or not selecting anything at all to have 
things turn out as intended.

Regular, everyday users tend not to have the time to spend on the finter 
points of linux and gentoo in particular. If the aim of the gentoo installer 
project is to make Gentoo more accessable to these types of users, then it's 
not unreasonable to expect these users to reach out somewhere for 
instruction. The fact that they DO reach out to the developers is an 
indication that 1. the answers are not obvious to them and 2. they are 
INTERESTED and willing to participate at some level. The fact that their 
interest, ability or level of participation does not match the same 
characteristics of the developers should not matter. Not everyone thinks 
alike. Not everyone has the same interests. Almost everyone wants to 
compute.

It's also obvious from the responses that some users do NOT find the 
handbook accessable. This can't be simply explained away by lack of 
intelligence. Again, what is obvious to some is not obvious to others, 
especially those who are not trained to think in technical terms. Brushing 
off the questions of every-day users as the work of "noobs" is a very easy 
and sloppy thing to do. 

There is a huge disconnect happening here. On the one hand, the Gentoo front 
matter seems to state that Gentoo is "all about choices" and goes on to 
strongly imply that the distribution can be all things to all users. There 
are a sub-set of users who 1. don't find the detail and fine-point 
instruction in the manual helpful 2. don't have the time to manually 
configure everything or 3. are not computer literate. It's obvious that 
there are large numbers of people who want to use gentoo but whose needs are 
not being met. I have the impression that the gentoo-installer project is an 
attempt to meet the needs of such users. 

I applaud the efforts of the installer devs and Gentoo at large. I use 
Gentoo on 5 machines, including this laptop. I think the installer is a 
great idea. 

I hope this honest and heartfelt criticism reaches you as intended: with 
respect and earnestness. I've been lurking on the mailing list a long time 
and I finally decided to throw in my two bits. 

Take Care

Paolo

On 9/19/05, Michael Miller <1337mail@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I dislike the idea of a quiz to use the installer. As much as I hate to 
> admit it, I am a "newbie" to gentoo, to some degree. However, I did manage 
> to fairly easily install it by reading the handbook. It is pretty much just 
> following directions, being very time consuming(took me about 2-3 days to 
> get my first gentoo box up). I think personally, that a special guide should 
> be written for the installer detailing everything needed to be done. If you 
> are very insistant upon getting rid of the "newbies" in the IRC channel, and 
> insist on having some kind of quiz, I'd make a quiz to enter the IRC 
> channel. 
>  Not to rant on, but my stance on gentoo, albeit against many of the 
> developers, is that it is a fast operating system. That is, in my view, the 
> only thing seperating it from other distros save for portage. Many people 
> like to tweak every last bit of performance out of gentoo, which is great! 
> However, I think gentoo should indeed be more user friendly. Don't get me 
> wrong-I CAN install gentoo, and edit configuration files, but it is very 
> time consuming, and not time efficent for me. I wish gentoo was very easy to 
> install(like redhat), and included an easy to use configuration tweaker 
> where you could EASILY change your cflags for basic optimizations for 
> specific processors(you could select p4, amd64, etc etc). You would of 
> course be able to manually edit it as well. The thing that I find so 
> daunting about linux, as compared to windows, is the fact that you have to 
> know what almost every single file does. Wanna change your sound card? You 
> have to know where /etc/alsa is. It is these kinds of things that frustrate 
> me. Don't get me wrong, I know MANY, if not all but me on this mailing list, 
> are opposed to catering to end users who don't want to have to memorize a 40 
> page guide to know how to install gentoo in their head, but I think it would 
> be a good idea to have gentoo easy to configure. I'm not saying someone who 
> doesn't know how to install Windows will know how to setup and run a gentoo 
> installation, but I think it should be easier to run then it currently is. 
>  On another side note I things that the thing that is blocking linux from 
> the end user are application installation, and driver installation. Come up 
> with an easy way to do both of these, and i'll never use win32 again :). 
>  Again, I want to reidorate, I realize that the main focus of gentoo is to 
> cater to so called "power users" who know everything about Linux, and tweak 
> everything in it. I just wish that I could have a tweakable operating system 
> without reading 40 pages each time I installed it! 
>  Sorry for the long rant :),
> Mike
>

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Re: [gentoo-installer] educating users

[Andrew Gaffney]

Paul J. Wilson wrote:
> The way I see it, the problem is not about the gentoo installer, but a 
> problem of perceptions between the developers and the users. There is a 
> further division between the "power users" and the "noobs".
> 
> It's easier said than done, but each side should step outside their own 
> experience. To a developer, "easy" meains opening VI and drawing on 
> their knowledge of hot keys and bash syntax. To the average user, "easy" 
> means selecting options from a menu , or not selecting anything at all 
> to have things turn out as intended.

To me, "easy" means following the very clear directions layed out for you in the 
install guide and being able to use nano. I may be wrong, but I believe my cat 
can use nano.

> Regular, everyday users tend not to have the time to spend on the finter 
> points of linux and gentoo in particular. If the aim of the gentoo 
> installer project is to make Gentoo more accessable to these types of 
> users, then it's not unreasonable to expect these users to reach out 

That's not the aim. The aim is to make installs *faster* and more 
automated...not easier.

> It's also obvious from the responses that some users do NOT find the 
> handbook accessable. This can't be simply explained away by lack of 
> intelligence. Again, what is obvious to some is not obvious to others, 
> especially those who are not trained to think in technical terms. 
> Brushing off the questions of every-day users as the work of "noobs" is 
> a very easy and sloppy thing to do.

People who can't follow the handbook are people that can't pay attention long 
enough to read a complete sentence. If someone can't install Gentoo because of 
ADD, that's not our problem.

> There is a huge disconnect happening here. On the one hand, the Gentoo 
> front matter seems to state that Gentoo is "all about choices" and goes 
> on to strongly imply that the distribution can be all things to all 
> users. There are a sub-set of users who 1. don't find the detail and 
> fine-point instruction in the manual helpful 2. don't have the time to 
> manually configure everything or 3. are not computer literate. It's 
> obvious that there are large numbers of people who want to use gentoo 
> but whose needs are not being met. I have the impression that the 
> gentoo-installer project is an attempt to meet the needs of such users.

Gentoo is not exactly targeted at *any* of those groups of users. As stated 
above, that is *not* the intention of the installer.

-- 
Andrew Gaffney                            http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/
Gentoo Linux Developer                                   Installer Project
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-installer] educating users

[Paul J. Wilson]

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Deaf ears.

On 9/19/05, Andrew Gaffney <agaffney@gentoo.org> wrote:
> 
> Paul J. Wilson wrote:
> > The way I see it, the problem is not about the gentoo installer, but a
> > problem of perceptions between the developers and the users. There is a
> > further division between the "power users" and the "noobs".
> >
> > It's easier said than done, but each side should step outside their own
> > experience. To a developer, "easy" meains opening VI and drawing on
> > their knowledge of hot keys and bash syntax. To the average user, "easy"
> > means selecting options from a menu , or not selecting anything at all
> > to have things turn out as intended.
> 
> To me, "easy" means following the very clear directions layed out for you 
> in the
> install guide and being able to use nano. I may be wrong, but I believe my 
> cat
> can use nano.
> 
> > Regular, everyday users tend not to have the time to spend on the finter
> > points of linux and gentoo in particular. If the aim of the gentoo
> > installer project is to make Gentoo more accessable to these types of
> > users, then it's not unreasonable to expect these users to reach out
> 
> That's not the aim. The aim is to make installs *faster* and more
> automated...not easier.
> 
> > It's also obvious from the responses that some users do NOT find the
> > handbook accessable. This can't be simply explained away by lack of
> > intelligence. Again, what is obvious to some is not obvious to others,
> > especially those who are not trained to think in technical terms.
> > Brushing off the questions of every-day users as the work of "noobs" is
> > a very easy and sloppy thing to do.
> 
> People who can't follow the handbook are people that can't pay attention 
> long
> enough to read a complete sentence. If someone can't install Gentoo 
> because of
> ADD, that's not our problem.
> 
> > There is a huge disconnect happening here. On the one hand, the Gentoo
> > front matter seems to state that Gentoo is "all about choices" and goes
> > on to strongly imply that the distribution can be all things to all
> > users. There are a sub-set of users who 1. don't find the detail and
> > fine-point instruction in the manual helpful 2. don't have the time to
> > manually configure everything or 3. are not computer literate. It's
> > obvious that there are large numbers of people who want to use gentoo
> > but whose needs are not being met. I have the impression that the
> > gentoo-installer project is an attempt to meet the needs of such users.
> 
> Gentoo is not exactly targeted at *any* of those groups of users. As 
> stated
> above, that is *not* the intention of the installer.
> 
> --
> Andrew Gaffney http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/
> Gentoo Linux Developer Installer Project
> --
> gentoo-installer@gentoo.org mailing list
> 
>

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Re: [gentoo-installer] educating users

[David Marchbanks]

ok, there is no need for a quiz, nor a need for a requirement for installing 
gentoo. if someone looks at gentoo and isn't ready, then they'll figure it 
out, real quick. for those who percivere like myself a year ago, they'll 
figure it out and learn so much about the linux operating system. all i can 
say is, be patient with those noobs, people come to the forum and ask 
questions only because there isn't a nice way of tracking fixes and howto's 
other than gentoo-wiki. all i can really suggest past that is get the gentoo 
website integrated with the gentoo-wiki and push for that being the howto's, 
since it is pretty nice in terms of giving the right instructions.
-- 
gentoo-installer@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-installer] educating users

[Zac Medico]

Paul J. Wilson wrote:
> Regular, everyday users tend not to have the time to spend on the finer
> points of linux and gentoo in particular.

These "everyday users" are unqualified to administrate a Gentoo box for various reasons including the inherent complexity of a source based distribution.  A binary distribution with lots of "hand holding" would better suit their needs.  Perhaps they could even use a binary distribution of Gentoo itself, but supported by some other entity.

Sure, an "everyday user" can *use* Gentoo, but administration is best left to experts.  That's all IMO, of course. ;)

Zac
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-installer] educating users

[Paul de Vrieze]

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On Tuesday 20 September 2005 03:32, Zac Medico wrote:
> Paul J. Wilson wrote:
> > Regular, everyday users tend not to have the time to spend on the
> > finer points of linux and gentoo in particular.
>
> These "everyday users" are unqualified to administrate a Gentoo box for
> various reasons including the inherent complexity of a source based
> distribution.  A binary distribution with lots of "hand holding" would
> better suit their needs.  Perhaps they could even use a binary
> distribution of Gentoo itself, but supported by some other entity.
>
> Sure, an "everyday user" can *use* Gentoo, but administration is best
> left to experts.  That's all IMO, of course. ;)

I think this indeed sums it up well. Gentoo is not aimed at users who do 
not want (or are not capable) to learn some more complex parts of the 
unix/linux operating system. That does not mean it's insuitable for 
newbees, it means that they have a steep learning curve ahead. Gentoo is 
not the most easy distribution around, and this is not the aim of gentoo. 
Gentoo is, like any other distro, not a 20 legged spider. It is a source 
based distribution with the goal of offering an uptodate, flexible, 
vanilla system.

Paul

-- 
Paul de Vrieze
Gentoo Developer
Mail: pauldv@gentoo.org
Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net

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Re: [gentoo-installer] educating users

[Jesse McNelis]

On 9/20/05, Paul de Vrieze <pauldv@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Tuesday 20 September 2005 03:32, Zac Medico wrote:
> > Paul J. Wilson wrote:
> > > Regular, everyday users tend not to have the time to spend on the
> > > finer points of linux and gentoo in particular.
> >
> > These "everyday users" are unqualified to administrate a Gentoo box for
> > various reasons including the inherent complexity of a source based
> > distribution.  A binary distribution with lots of "hand holding" would
> > better suit their needs.  Perhaps they could even use a binary
> > distribution of Gentoo itself, but supported by some other entity.
> >
> > Sure, an "everyday user" can *use* Gentoo, but administration is best
> > left to experts.  That's all IMO, of course. ;)
> 
> I think this indeed sums it up well. Gentoo is not aimed at users who do
> not want (or are not capable) to learn some more complex parts of the
> unix/linux operating system. That does not mean it's insuitable for
> newbees, it means that they have a steep learning curve ahead. Gentoo is
> not the most easy distribution around, and this is not the aim of gentoo.
> Gentoo is, like any other distro, not a 20 legged spider. It is a source
> based distribution with the goal of offering an uptodate, flexible,
> vanilla system.
> 
> Paul
> 
> --
> Paul de Vrieze
> Gentoo Developer
> Mail: pauldv@gentoo.org
> Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net
> 
> 
> 

I've always wondered at the definition of "easy to use".
does "easy to use" mean that you can pick it up and be productive in
an afternoon?
or does "easy to use" mean that once you have put in the hard yards to
learn it, it is extremely easy to do everyday tasks and just as easy
to do complex ones?

- Jesse McNelis


-- 
=====================
Don't worry, This isn't spam
=====================
Dairy!* is back @ http://jessta.homelinux.net
Running on the Wonderful Gentoo GNU/Linux
Melbourne Wireless Node: GNE

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Re: [gentoo-installer] educating users

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Tue, 2005-09-20 at 23:51 +1000, Jesse McNelis wrote:
> I've always wondered at the definition of "easy to use".
> does "easy to use" mean that you can pick it up and be productive in
> an afternoon?

This definitely isn't Gentoo.  Even if you're very familiar with Linux,
it will still take a little while longer to learn the "Gentoo way" of
doing certain things.

> or does "easy to use" mean that once you have put in the hard yards to
> learn it, it is extremely easy to do everyday tasks and just as easy
> to do complex ones?

I find Gentoo to be unbeatable in usability once you've learned the
system.  The truth is that any system can be fairly easy to use once
you've trained yourself to use it.  It's my personal opinion that Gentoo
tends to be easier to use, as far as usability is concerned, once you've
"learned the ropes", so to speak.

Anyway, this really isn't the place for this discussion, as we've gone
pretty far off-topic for the installer list.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-installer] educating users

[Erick Michau]

Jesse McNelis wrote:

>On 9/20/05, Paul de Vrieze <pauldv@gentoo.org> wrote:
>  
>
>>On Tuesday 20 September 2005 03:32, Zac Medico wrote:
>>    
>>
>>>Paul J. Wilson wrote:
>>>      
>>>
>>>>Regular, everyday users tend not to have the time to spend on the
>>>>finer points of linux and gentoo in particular.
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>These "everyday users" are unqualified to administrate a Gentoo box for
>>>various reasons including the inherent complexity of a source based
>>>distribution.  A binary distribution with lots of "hand holding" would
>>>better suit their needs.  Perhaps they could even use a binary
>>>distribution of Gentoo itself, but supported by some other entity.
>>>
>>>Sure, an "everyday user" can *use* Gentoo, but administration is best
>>>left to experts.  That's all IMO, of course. ;)
>>>      
>>>
>>I think this indeed sums it up well. Gentoo is not aimed at users who do
>>not want (or are not capable) to learn some more complex parts of the
>>unix/linux operating system. That does not mean it's insuitable for
>>newbees, it means that they have a steep learning curve ahead. Gentoo is
>>not the most easy distribution around, and this is not the aim of gentoo.
>>Gentoo is, like any other distro, not a 20 legged spider. It is a source
>>based distribution with the goal of offering an uptodate, flexible,
>>vanilla system.
>>
>>Paul
>>
>>--
>>Paul de Vrieze
>>Gentoo Developer
>>Mail: pauldv@gentoo.org
>>Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net
>>
>>
>>
>>    
>>
>
>I've always wondered at the definition of "easy to use".
>does "easy to use" mean that you can pick it up and be productive in
>an afternoon?
>or does "easy to use" mean that once you have put in the hard yards to
>learn it, it is extremely easy to do everyday tasks and just as easy
>to do complex ones?
>
>- Jesse McNelis
>
>
>  
>
Hi all,

I deeply think the topic here has become more about the way users
(newbies and devs) are apprehending their interaction (which for obvious
reasons are very contradictive) with their computers rather than a real
installer development subject. Not that this is a bad thing, but the
conception of Human Computer Interaction (HCI
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human-computer_interaction>) from each
"side" (newbies and devs) is IMO much more complex than what it may look
like. It is much more about design and cognitive science rather than
just general statements like "gentoo is not for this type of users or
that type": Gentoo is free and for everyone.
Indeed, it is up to the devs to estimate, conceive and design an
interface (GUI or CLI) and new users (newbies) have their place in the
testing phaze which takes place far after conception (eventhough some
theories ship the newby directly during early design). The idea here is
that designing (not coding) an installer which is like a "gate" that
allow "true and understood" communication between newbies and devs
during the install process is almost the HARDEST part of that project,
here again IMO.

My point is: if some newbies would like to defend the idea of a quiz or
whatsoever, could that be possible to post it on forums.gentoo.org
rather than to this mailing list? We would have much more people reading
and commenting and more HCI experts to help the devs out if they need
to. Because  now I think the reflexion  here is more guided by intuitive
conceptions rather than theories, which is not bad but not the best way...

Thanx,
Erick
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Re: [gentoo-installer] educating users

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Tue, 2005-09-20 at 16:25 +0000, Erick Michau wrote:
> My point is: if some newbies would like to defend the idea of a quiz or
> whatsoever, could that be possible to post it on forums.gentoo.org
> rather than to this mailing list? We would have much more people reading
> and commenting and more HCI experts to help the devs out if they need
> to. Because  now I think the reflexion  here is more guided by intuitive
> conceptions rather than theories, which is not bad but not the best way...

I think you're missing the point that this is not designed to make
things easier, but rather quicker.  We quite simply are more concerned
with functionality right now than any kind of HCI mumbo-jumbo.  The root
problem is that people are assuming that an installer is designed to
make things easier for people.  It is not.  The primary design of the
installer, according to the project plan laid out when the installer was
first being conceived, is to facilitate rapid deployment.  The confusion
comes from the users that think that you run the installer on every
machine you have, rather than run it once, make a profile, and install
it on *hundreds* of machines identically.  The installer's primary goal
is to facilitate an enterprise computing need, not any HCI needs of
users.  Perhaps once the core functionality has been completed and bugs
have been reduced, this can be looked into, but it isn't so much of a
concern as getting the code written and functional.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux

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[gentoo-installer] unsubscribe

[Mr Rayen]

unsubscribe


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Re: [gentoo-installer] unsubscribe

[Benigno B. Junior]

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Oh no! There's no escape from us! ;)

On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 16:53:36 +0200
"Mr Rayen" <draakje02@hotmail.com> wrote:

> unsubscribe
> 
> 
> -- 
> gentoo-installer@gentoo.org mailing list
> 


-- 
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Research Group on Computer Networks and Software Engineering
Federal University of Itajuba, Brazil

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Re: [gentoo-installer] unsubscribe

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Tue, 2005-09-20 at 11:57 -0300, Benigno B. Junior wrote:
> Oh no! There's no escape from us! ;)

I'm really curious what the big problem with unsubscribing is, or the
sudden urge for people to unsubscribe recently.  Every list that I'm on
seems to have had at least 1 person trying to unsubscribe (and failing)
this past week.  What I don't understand is why people send to the list
anyway.  I don't know of a single mailing list application that accepts
commands to the list itself.  Oh well...

http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/lists.xml

"To unsubscribe from a list, send an empty email to:

listname+unsubscribe@gentoo.org"

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-installer] unsubscribe

[Michael Crute]

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On 9/20/05, Chris Gianelloni <wolf31o2@gentoo.org> wrote: 
> 
> I don't know of a single mailing list application that accepts
> commands to the list itself. Oh well...
> 
Pretty sure that Mailman does and it's common practice on most mailing lists 
to unsubscribe by sending unsubscribe to the list. Gentoo is the first one I 
have seen that has special command-only addresses.
 -Mike

-- 
________________________________
Michael E. Crute
Software Developer
SoftGroup Development Corporation

Linux, because reboots are for installing hardware.
"In a world without walls and fences, who needs windows and gates?"

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Re: [gentoo-installer] unsubscribe

[Paul J. Wilson]

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Tried listname+unsubscribe@gentoo.org multiple times and it does not work.
 
 On 9/20/05, Michael Crute <mcrute@gmail.com> wrote: 
> 
> On 9/20/05, Chris Gianelloni <wolf31o2@gentoo.org> wrote: 
> > 
> > I don't know of a single mailing list application that accepts
> > commands to the list itself. Oh well... 
> > 
> Pretty sure that Mailman does and it's common practice on most mailing 
> lists to unsubscribe by sending unsubscribe to the list. Gentoo is the first 
> one I have seen that has special command-only addresses.
>  -Mike
> 
> -- 
> ________________________________
> Michael E. Crute
> Software Developer
> SoftGroup Development Corporation
> 
> Linux, because reboots are for installing hardware.
> "In a world without walls and fences, who needs windows and gates?" 
>

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Re: [gentoo-installer] unsubscribe

[Andrew Gaffney]

Paul J. Wilson wrote:
> Tried listname+unsubscribe@gentoo.org 
> <mailto:listname+unsubscribe@gentoo.org>  multiple times and it does not 
> work.

Did you try replacing "listname" with the name of the list? That usually helps.

-- 
Andrew Gaffney                            http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/
Gentoo Linux Developer                                   Installer Project

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Re: [gentoo-installer] unsubscribe

[Paul J. Wilson]

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dont be so literal. of course i did. 
On 9/20/05, Andrew Gaffney <agaffney@gentoo.org> wrote: 
> 
> Paul J. Wilson wrote:
> > Tried listname+unsubscribe@gentoo.org
> > <mailto:listname+unsubscribe@gentoo.org> multiple times and it does not
> > work.
> 
> Did you try replacing "listname" with the name of the list? That usually 
> helps.
> 
> --
> Andrew Gaffney http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/
> Gentoo Linux Developer Installer Project
> 
> --
> gentoo-installer@gentoo.org mailing list
> 
>

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Re: [gentoo-installer] unsubscribe

[Andrew Gaffney]

Paul J. Wilson wrote:
> dont be so literal. of course i did.
> On 9/20/05, *Andrew Gaffney* <agaffney@gentoo.org 
> <mailto:agaffney@gentoo.org>> wrote:
> 
>     Paul J. Wilson wrote:
>      > Tried listname+unsubscribe@gentoo.org
>     <mailto:listname+unsubscribe@gentoo.org>
>      > <mailto:listname+unsubscribe@gentoo.org
>     <mailto:listname+unsubscribe@gentoo.org>>  multiple times and it
>     does not
>      > work.
> 
>     Did you try replacing "listname" with the name of the list? That
>     usually helps.

Then you're defective. I just subscribed and unsubscribed one of my other email 
addresses using gentoo-installer+unsubscribe@gentoo.org without a problem.

-- 
Andrew Gaffney                            http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/
Gentoo Linux Developer                                   Installer Project

-- 
gentoo-installer@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-installer] unsubscribe

[Paul J. Wilson]

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welcome to my spam bin.

On 9/20/05, Andrew Gaffney <agaffney@gentoo.org> wrote: 
> 
> Paul J. Wilson wrote:
> > dont be so literal. of course i did.
> > On 9/20/05, *Andrew Gaffney* <agaffney@gentoo.org
> > <mailto:agaffney@gentoo.org>> wrote:
> >
> > Paul J. Wilson wrote:
> > > Tried listname+unsubscribe@gentoo.org
> > <mailto:listname+unsubscribe@gentoo.org>
> > > <mailto:listname+unsubscribe@gentoo.org
> > <mailto:listname+unsubscribe@gentoo.org>> multiple times and it
> > does not
> > > work.
> >
> > Did you try replacing "listname" with the name of the list? That
> > usually helps.
> 
> Then you're defective. I just subscribed and unsubscribed one of my other 
> email
> addresses using gentoo-installer+unsubscribe@gentoo.org without a problem.
> 
> --
> Andrew Gaffney http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/
> Gentoo Linux Developer Installer Project
> 
> --
> gentoo-installer@gentoo.org mailing list
> 
>

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Re: [gentoo-installer] unsubscribe

[Michael Crute]

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On 9/20/05, Paul J. Wilson <paulj.wilson@gmail.com> wrote: 
> 
> welcome to my spam bin. 
> 

 Hmph... somebody (who can't follow simple directions) is a bit grumpy. We 
talk about educating users of the installer how bout we educate users of the 
mailing lists.
 -Mike
 -- 
________________________________
Michael E. Crute
Software Developer
SoftGroup Development Corporation

Linux, because reboots are for installing hardware.
"In a world without walls and fences, who needs windows and gates?"

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Re: [gentoo-installer] unsubscribe

[Paul J. Wilson]

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Apology: that comment was not intended for you, but for andrew who sent me 
several snotty messages. Life is too short for that . I am having problems 
with the list. Two days not and won't let me go. I have followed the 
instructions properly. I solved the problem by declaring the list mail as 
spam. Done. 
 Take care,
 Paolo
 

 On 9/20/05, Michael Crute <mcrute@gmail.com> wrote: 
> 
> On 9/20/05, Paul J. Wilson <paulj.wilson@gmail.com> wrote: 
> > 
> > welcome to my spam bin. 
> > 
> 
>  Hmph... somebody (who can't follow simple directions) is a bit grumpy. We 
> talk about educating users of the installer how bout we educate users of the 
> mailing lists.
>  -Mike
>  -- 
> ________________________________
> Michael E. Crute
> Software Developer
> SoftGroup Development Corporation
> 
> Linux, because reboots are for installing hardware.
> "In a world without walls and fences, who needs windows and gates?" 
>

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Re: [gentoo-installer] unsubscribe

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Tue, 2005-09-20 at 11:16 -0400, Michael Crute wrote:
> On 9/20/05, Chris Gianelloni <wolf31o2@gentoo.org> wrote: 
>          I don't know of a single mailing list application that
>         accepts
>         commands to the list itself.  Oh well... 
> Pretty sure that Mailman does and it's common practice on most mailing
> lists to unsubscribe by sending unsubscribe to the list. Gentoo is the
> first one I have seen that has special command-only addresses.

I admin a mailman server.  It does not.

You send requests to listname-requests@domain instead.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux

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