* [gentoo-hardened] SELinux problem -> avc: denied {execmem}
@ 2006-05-21 13:40 Jan Meier
2006-05-21 13:59 ` kakou
2006-05-21 16:00 ` Petre Rodan
0 siblings, 2 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Jan Meier @ 2006-05-21 13:40 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-hardened
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Hello,
I am running SELinux and at boot time I get the following avc: denied
messages:
May 21 16:01:40 jeeves audit(1148220069.887:0): avc: denied { execmem } for
pid=1 comm=init scontext=system_u:system_r:kernel_t
tcontext=system_u:system_r:kernel_t tclass=process
May 21 16:01:40 jeeves audit(1148220069.905:0): avc: denied { execmem } for
pid=1 comm=init scontext=system_u:system_r:init_t
tcontext=system_u:system_r:init_t tclass=process
May 21 16:01:40 jeeves audit(1148220070.475:0): avc: denied { execmem } for
pid=896 comm=rc scontext=system_u:system_r:initrc_t
tcontext=system_u:system_r:initrc_t tclass=process
May 21 16:01:40 jeeves audit(1148220070.920:0): avc: denied { execmem } for
pid=904 comm=mount scontext=system_u:system_r:mount_t
tcontext=system_u:system_r:mount_t tclass=process
May 21 16:01:40 jeeves audit(1148220071.457:0): avc: denied { execmem } for
pid=934 comm=swapon scontext=system_u:system_r:fsadm_t
tcontext=system_u:system_r:fsadm_t tclass=process
May 21 16:01:40 jeeves audit(1148220072.480:0): avc: denied { execmem } for
pid=974 comm=modules-update scontext=system_u:system_r:update_modules_t
tcontext=system_u:system_r:update_modules_t tclass=process
What can I do to get rid of them?
When I execute `setenforce 1` I get a "Killed" after each command I execute,
does this have something to do with the denied messages?
Best regards,
Jan
--
GPG-Key-ID: BC3D36E0
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-hardened] SELinux problem -> avc: denied {execmem}
2006-05-21 13:40 [gentoo-hardened] SELinux problem -> avc: denied {execmem} Jan Meier
@ 2006-05-21 13:59 ` kakou
2006-05-21 16:00 ` Petre Rodan
1 sibling, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: kakou @ 2006-05-21 13:59 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-hardened
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Jan Meier wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I am running SELinux and at boot time I get the following avc: denied
> messages:
>
> May 21 16:01:40 jeeves audit(1148220069.887:0): avc: denied { execmem
} for
> pid=1 comm=init scontext=system_u:system_r:kernel_t
> tcontext=system_u:system_r:kernel_t tclass=process
> May 21 16:01:40 jeeves audit(1148220069.905:0): avc: denied { execmem
} for
> pid=1 comm=init scontext=system_u:system_r:init_t
> tcontext=system_u:system_r:init_t tclass=process
> May 21 16:01:40 jeeves audit(1148220070.475:0): avc: denied { execmem
} for
> pid=896 comm=rc scontext=system_u:system_r:initrc_t
> tcontext=system_u:system_r:initrc_t tclass=process
> May 21 16:01:40 jeeves audit(1148220070.920:0): avc: denied { execmem
} for
> pid=904 comm=mount scontext=system_u:system_r:mount_t
> tcontext=system_u:system_r:mount_t tclass=process
> May 21 16:01:40 jeeves audit(1148220071.457:0): avc: denied { execmem
} for
> pid=934 comm=swapon scontext=system_u:system_r:fsadm_t
> tcontext=system_u:system_r:fsadm_t tclass=process
> May 21 16:01:40 jeeves audit(1148220072.480:0): avc: denied { execmem
} for
> pid=974 comm=modules-update scontext=system_u:system_r:update_modules_t
> tcontext=system_u:system_r:update_modules_t tclass=process
>
> What can I do to get rid of them?
> When I execute `setenforce 1` I get a "Killed" after each command I
execute,
> does this have something to do with the denied messages?
>
> Best regards,
>
> Jan
>
>
>
You boot in enforcing or permissive mode?
You are using an other security protection (grsecurity, PAX, ...) ?
You are in stable or ~x86?
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* Re: [gentoo-hardened] SELinux problem -> avc: denied {execmem}
2006-05-21 13:40 [gentoo-hardened] SELinux problem -> avc: denied {execmem} Jan Meier
2006-05-21 13:59 ` kakou
@ 2006-05-21 16:00 ` Petre Rodan
2006-05-21 16:46 ` Jan Meier
1 sibling, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread
From: Petre Rodan @ 2006-05-21 16:00 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-hardened
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Hi,
On Sun, May 21, 2006 at 04:40:57PM +0200, Jan Meier wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I am running SELinux and at boot time I get the following avc: denied
> messages:
>
> May 21 16:01:40 jeeves audit(1148220069.887:0): avc: denied { execmem } for
> pid=1 comm=init scontext=system_u:system_r:kernel_t
> tcontext=system_u:system_r:kernel_t tclass=process
> May 21 16:01:40 jeeves audit(1148220069.905:0): avc: denied { execmem } for
> pid=1 comm=init scontext=system_u:system_r:init_t
> tcontext=system_u:system_r:init_t tclass=process
> May 21 16:01:40 jeeves audit(1148220070.475:0): avc: denied { execmem } for
> pid=896 comm=rc scontext=system_u:system_r:initrc_t
> tcontext=system_u:system_r:initrc_t tclass=process
> May 21 16:01:40 jeeves audit(1148220070.920:0): avc: denied { execmem } for
> pid=904 comm=mount scontext=system_u:system_r:mount_t
> tcontext=system_u:system_r:mount_t tclass=process
> May 21 16:01:40 jeeves audit(1148220071.457:0): avc: denied { execmem } for
> pid=934 comm=swapon scontext=system_u:system_r:fsadm_t
> tcontext=system_u:system_r:fsadm_t tclass=process
> May 21 16:01:40 jeeves audit(1148220072.480:0): avc: denied { execmem } for
> pid=974 comm=modules-update scontext=system_u:system_r:update_modules_t
> tcontext=system_u:system_r:update_modules_t tclass=process
your binares might lack the GNU_STACK header, i.e. they were built with an old toolchain.
use readelf --headers to find out if it's the case.
you might want to upgrade to the latest stable gcc and recompile all binaries with that header missing.
> When I execute `setenforce 1` I get a "Killed" after each command I execute,
> does this have something to do with the denied messages?
you should enforce only when your policy is ok for your purposes.
cheers,
peter
--
petre rodan
<kaiowas@gentoo.org>
Developer,
Hardened Gentoo Linux
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-hardened] SELinux problem -> avc: denied {execmem}
2006-05-21 16:00 ` Petre Rodan
@ 2006-05-21 16:46 ` Jan Meier
2006-05-21 18:31 ` Petre Rodan
0 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread
From: Jan Meier @ 2006-05-21 16:46 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-hardened
Petre Rodan wrote:
> your binares might lack the GNU_STACK header, i.e. they were built with an old toolchain.
> use readelf --headers to find out if it's the case.
Executing: readelf -headers /bin/mount | grep GNU_STACK shows
"GNU_STACK 0x000000 0x00000000 0x00000000 0x00000 0x00000 RW 0x4"
> you might want to upgrade to the latest stable gcc and recompile all binaries with that header missing.
My gcc is version 3.4.5
>>When I execute `setenforce 1` I get a "Killed" after each command I execute,
>>does this have something to do with the denied messages?
> you should enforce only when your policy is ok for your purposes.
I am new to SELinux and currently reading the O'Reilly SELinux book to
gather more informations :)
Any suggestions to my problem?
Regards Jan
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-hardened] SELinux problem -> avc: denied {execmem}
2006-05-21 16:46 ` Jan Meier
@ 2006-05-21 18:31 ` Petre Rodan
2006-05-21 20:40 ` Jan Meier
0 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread
From: Petre Rodan @ 2006-05-21 18:31 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-hardened
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On Sun, May 21, 2006 at 07:46:01PM +0200, Jan Meier wrote:
> Petre Rodan wrote:
> >your binares might lack the GNU_STACK header, i.e. they were built with an old
> >toolchain.
> >use readelf --headers to find out if it's the case.
> Executing: readelf -headers /bin/mount | grep GNU_STACK shows "GNU_STACK 0x000000
> 0x00000000 0x00000000 0x00000 0x00000 RW 0x4"
how about /sbin/runscript, /sbin/init, /bin/bash?
> >you might want to upgrade to the latest stable gcc and recompile all binaries with
> >that header missing.
> My gcc is version 3.4.5
I presume that 'gcc-config -l' also shows that you're actually using it?
cheers,
peter
--
petre rodan
<kaiowas@gentoo.org>
Developer,
Hardened Gentoo Linux
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-hardened] SELinux problem -> avc: denied {execmem}
2006-05-21 18:31 ` Petre Rodan
@ 2006-05-21 20:40 ` Jan Meier
2006-05-22 6:04 ` Petre Rodan
0 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread
From: Jan Meier @ 2006-05-21 20:40 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-hardened
Am Sonntag 21 Mai 2006 20:31 schrieb Petre Rodan:
> On Sun, May 21, 2006 at 07:46:01PM +0200, Jan Meier wrote:
> > Petre Rodan wrote:
> > >your binares might lack the GNU_STACK header, i.e. they were built with
> > > an old toolchain.
> > >use readelf --headers to find out if it's the case.
> >
> > Executing: readelf -headers /bin/mount | grep GNU_STACK shows "GNU_STACK
> > 0x000000 0x00000000 0x00000000 0x00000 0x00000 RW 0x4"
>
> how about /sbin/runscript, /sbin/init, /bin/bash?
Same result, GNU_STACK is in the header.
> > >you might want to upgrade to the latest stable gcc and recompile all
> > > binaries with that header missing.
> >
> > My gcc is version 3.4.5
>
> I presume that 'gcc-config -l' also shows that you're actually using it?
gcc-config shows that I am using 3.4.5 :)
regards
Jan
> cheers,
> peter
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GPG-Key-ID: BC3D36E0
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* Re: [gentoo-hardened] SELinux problem -> avc: denied {execmem}
2006-05-21 20:40 ` Jan Meier
@ 2006-05-22 6:04 ` Petre Rodan
2006-05-22 8:59 ` pageexec
2006-05-22 17:32 ` Jan Meier
0 siblings, 2 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Petre Rodan @ 2006-05-22 6:04 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-hardened
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Hi,
On Sun, May 21, 2006 at 11:40:15PM +0200, Jan Meier wrote:
> Am Sonntag 21 Mai 2006 20:31 schrieb Petre Rodan:
> > On Sun, May 21, 2006 at 07:46:01PM +0200, Jan Meier wrote:
> > > Petre Rodan wrote:
> > > >your binares might lack the GNU_STACK header, i.e. they were built with
> > > > an old toolchain.
> > > >use readelf --headers to find out if it's the case.
> > >
> > > Executing: readelf -headers /bin/mount | grep GNU_STACK shows "GNU_STACK
> > > 0x000000 0x00000000 0x00000000 0x00000 0x00000 RW 0x4"
> >
> > how about /sbin/runscript, /sbin/init, /bin/bash?
> Same result, GNU_STACK is in the header.
strange. please file a bug report and make sure you include emerge --info in it.
do you have a new gentoo setup there or did you migrate an old install?
> > > >you might want to upgrade to the latest stable gcc and recompile all
> > > > binaries with that header missing.
> > >
> > > My gcc is version 3.4.5
> >
> > I presume that 'gcc-config -l' also shows that you're actually using it?
> gcc-config shows that I am using 3.4.5 :)
just checking :)
cheers,
peter
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-hardened] SELinux problem -> avc: denied {execmem}
2006-05-22 6:04 ` Petre Rodan
@ 2006-05-22 8:59 ` pageexec
2006-05-22 9:30 ` Petre Rodan
2006-05-22 14:43 ` Chris PeBenito
2006-05-22 17:32 ` Jan Meier
1 sibling, 2 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: pageexec @ 2006-05-22 8:59 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-hardened
On 22 May 2006 at 9:04, Petre Rodan wrote:
> > > how about /sbin/runscript, /sbin/init, /bin/bash?
> > Same result, GNU_STACK is in the header.
>
> strange. please file a bug report and make sure you include emerge --info in it.
aren't execmem denials due to text relocations? i'd run a scanelf -t on
all affected executables and libraries just in case...
--
gentoo-hardened@gentoo.org mailing list
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-hardened] SELinux problem -> avc: denied {execmem}
2006-05-22 8:59 ` pageexec
@ 2006-05-22 9:30 ` Petre Rodan
2006-05-22 14:43 ` Chris PeBenito
1 sibling, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Petre Rodan @ 2006-05-22 9:30 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-hardened
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Hi,
On Mon, May 22, 2006 at 11:59:59AM +0200, pageexec@freemail.hu wrote:
> On 22 May 2006 at 9:04, Petre Rodan wrote:
> > > > how about /sbin/runscript, /sbin/init, /bin/bash?
> > > Same result, GNU_STACK is in the header.
> >
> > strange. please file a bug report and make sure you include emerge --info in it.
>
> aren't execmem denials due to text relocations? i'd run a scanelf -t on
> all affected executables and libraries just in case...
I hit the GNU_STACK problem about a year ago and recompiling old binaries helped. oh well. [1][2]
[1] http://www.nsa.gov/selinux/list-archive/0502/10386.cfm
[2] http://www.nsa.gov/selinux/list-archive/0502/10553.cfm
cheers,
peter
--
petre rodan
<kaiowas@gentoo.org>
Developer,
Hardened Gentoo Linux
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-hardened] SELinux problem -> avc: denied {execmem}
2006-05-22 8:59 ` pageexec
2006-05-22 9:30 ` Petre Rodan
@ 2006-05-22 14:43 ` Chris PeBenito
1 sibling, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Chris PeBenito @ 2006-05-22 14:43 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-hardened
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On Mon, 2006-05-22 at 10:59 +0200, pageexec@freemail.hu wrote:
> On 22 May 2006 at 9:04, Petre Rodan wrote:
> > > > how about /sbin/runscript, /sbin/init, /bin/bash?
> > > Same result, GNU_STACK is in the header.
> >
> > strange. please file a bug report and make sure you include emerge --info in it.
>
> aren't execmem denials due to text relocations? i'd run a scanelf -t on
> all affected executables and libraries just in case...
No, that would be execmod.
--
Chris PeBenito
<pebenito@gentoo.org>
Developer,
Hardened Gentoo Linux
Embedded Gentoo Linux
Public Key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xE6AF9243
Key fingerprint = B0E6 877A 883F A57A 8E6A CB00 BC8E E42D E6AF 9243
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-hardened] SELinux problem -> avc: denied {execmem}
2006-05-22 6:04 ` Petre Rodan
2006-05-22 8:59 ` pageexec
@ 2006-05-22 17:32 ` Jan Meier
2006-05-22 19:43 ` pageexec
2006-05-23 17:08 ` Jan Meier
1 sibling, 2 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Jan Meier @ 2006-05-22 17:32 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-hardened
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 380 bytes --]
Hi,
> do you have a new gentoo setup there or did you migrate an old install?
The gentoo installation is two month old, I migrated to SELinux.
It is a PPC, could this be a problem?
Currently I am running emerge -euDN world, to know that it is not a problem
with my installation, I will report if it is finished. (38/192)
Regards
Jan
--
GPG-Key-ID: BC3D36E0
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-hardened] SELinux problem -> avc: denied {execmem}
2006-05-22 17:32 ` Jan Meier
@ 2006-05-22 19:43 ` pageexec
2006-05-22 22:40 ` Ned Ludd
2006-05-27 22:11 ` Peter S. Mazinger
2006-05-23 17:08 ` Jan Meier
1 sibling, 2 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: pageexec @ 2006-05-22 19:43 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-hardened
On 22 May 2006 at 19:32, Jan Meier wrote:
> > do you have a new gentoo setup there or did you migrate an old install?
> The gentoo installation is two month old, I migrated to SELinux.
> It is a PPC, could this be a problem?
i'm wondering if it's the ppc .plt issue that PaX runs against as well
(it's rwx and runtime generated -> not good). a year ago or so Red Hat
people added secureplt support to binutils/ld, (hardened) gentoo should
probably take a look.
http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc-patches/2005-05/msg01134.html
http://sources.redhat.com/ml/binutils/2005-05/msg00391.html
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* Re: [gentoo-hardened] SELinux problem -> avc: denied {execmem}
2006-05-22 19:43 ` pageexec
@ 2006-05-22 22:40 ` Ned Ludd
2006-05-27 22:11 ` Peter S. Mazinger
1 sibling, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Ned Ludd @ 2006-05-22 22:40 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-hardened
On Mon, 2006-05-22 at 21:43 +0200, pageexec@freemail.hu wrote:
> On 22 May 2006 at 19:32, Jan Meier wrote:
> > > do you have a new gentoo setup there or did you migrate an old install?
> > The gentoo installation is two month old, I migrated to SELinux.
> > It is a PPC, could this be a problem?
>
> i'm wondering if it's the ppc .plt issue that PaX runs against as well
> (it's rwx and runtime generated -> not good). a year ago or so Red Hat
> people added secureplt support to binutils/ld, (hardened) gentoo should
> probably take a look.
>
> http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc-patches/2005-05/msg01134.html
> http://sources.redhat.com/ml/binutils/2005-05/msg00391.html
Last we spoke about this I thought you said it was reverted.
Btw. I'm running a ppc box with pretty great success with most of the
supported PaX features enabled. (only bugs thus far have been with SPP
and a few pkgs (glibc/busybox/gcc) but I'm sure that wont shock you :)
Linux luna 2.6.14-hardened #1 Tue Nov 15 21:55:38 UTC 2005 ppc
7447/7457, altivec supported GNU/Linux
128bb000-128c1000 r-xp 00000000 03:03 1703959 /bin/cat
128cb000-128cc000 r--p 00010000 03:03 1703959 /bin/cat
128cc000-128cd000 rw-p 00011000 03:03 1703959 /bin/cat
128cd000-128fb000 rw-p 128cd000 00:00 0 [heap]
32cc6000-32cde000 r-xp 00000000 03:03 205825 /lib/ld-2.3.5.so
32cde000-32cdf000 rw-p 32cde000 00:00 0
32ce6000-32ce7000 r--p 00020000 03:03 205825 /lib/ld-2.3.5.so
32ce7000-32ce8000 rw-p 00021000 03:03 205825 /lib/ld-2.3.5.so
32ce8000-32ce9000 rw-p 32ce8000 00:00 0
32cea000-32cee000 r-xp 00000000 03:03 205787 /lib/libaudit.so
32cee000-32cfa000 ---p 00004000 03:03 205787 /lib/libaudit.so
32cfa000-32cfb000 r--p 00010000 03:03 205787 /lib/libaudit.so
32cfb000-32cfc000 rw-p 00011000 03:03 205787 /lib/libaudit.so
32d06000-32e29000 r-xp 00000000 03:03 205828 /lib/libc-2.3.5.so
32e29000-32e36000 ---p 00123000 03:03 205828 /lib/libc-2.3.5.so
32e36000-32e38000 r--p 00130000 03:03 205828 /lib/libc-2.3.5.so
32e38000-32e3c000 rw-p 00132000 03:03 205828 /lib/libc-2.3.5.so
32e3c000-32e3e000 rw-p 32e3c000 00:00 0
32e3e000-32e40000 r-xp 00000000 03:03 205830 /lib/libdl-2.3.5.so
32e40000-32e4e000 ---p 00002000 03:03 205830 /lib/libdl-2.3.5.so
32e4e000-32e4f000 r--p 00010000 03:03 205830 /lib/libdl-2.3.5.so
32e4f000-32e50000 rw-p 00011000 03:03 205830 /lib/libdl-2.3.5.so
7904f000-79065000 rw-p 7904f000 00:00 0 [stack]
--
Ned Ludd <solar@gentoo.org>
Gentoo Linux
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* Re: [gentoo-hardened] SELinux problem -> avc: denied {execmem}
2006-05-22 17:32 ` Jan Meier
2006-05-22 19:43 ` pageexec
@ 2006-05-23 17:08 ` Jan Meier
1 sibling, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Jan Meier @ 2006-05-23 17:08 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-hardened
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 330 bytes --]
Hi,
> Currently I am running emerge -euDN world, to know that it is not a problem
> with my installation, I will report if it is finished. (38/192)
The emerge -euDN did not help to get rid of the messages, I filed an bug
report: http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=134129
Regards
Jan
--
GPG-Key-ID: BC3D36E0
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-hardened] SELinux problem -> avc: denied {execmem}
2006-05-22 19:43 ` pageexec
2006-05-22 22:40 ` Ned Ludd
@ 2006-05-27 22:11 ` Peter S. Mazinger
1 sibling, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Peter S. Mazinger @ 2006-05-27 22:11 UTC (permalink / raw
To: gentoo-hardened
On Mon, 22 May 2006 pageexec@freemail.hu wrote:
> On 22 May 2006 at 19:32, Jan Meier wrote:
> > > do you have a new gentoo setup there or did you migrate an old install?
> > The gentoo installation is two month old, I migrated to SELinux.
> > It is a PPC, could this be a problem?
>
> i'm wondering if it's the ppc .plt issue that PaX runs against as well
> (it's rwx and runtime generated -> not good). a year ago or so Red Hat
> people added secureplt support to binutils/ld, (hardened) gentoo should
> probably take a look.
that patch is never applied to redhat fedora builds
Peter
>
> http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc-patches/2005-05/msg01134.html
> http://sources.redhat.com/ml/binutils/2005-05/msg00391.html
>
>
--
Peter S. Mazinger <ps dot m at gmx dot net> ID: 0xA5F059F2
Key fingerprint = 92A4 31E1 56BC 3D5A 2D08 BB6E C389 975E A5F0 59F2
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Thread overview: 15+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2006-05-21 13:40 [gentoo-hardened] SELinux problem -> avc: denied {execmem} Jan Meier
2006-05-21 13:59 ` kakou
2006-05-21 16:00 ` Petre Rodan
2006-05-21 16:46 ` Jan Meier
2006-05-21 18:31 ` Petre Rodan
2006-05-21 20:40 ` Jan Meier
2006-05-22 6:04 ` Petre Rodan
2006-05-22 8:59 ` pageexec
2006-05-22 9:30 ` Petre Rodan
2006-05-22 14:43 ` Chris PeBenito
2006-05-22 17:32 ` Jan Meier
2006-05-22 19:43 ` pageexec
2006-05-22 22:40 ` Ned Ludd
2006-05-27 22:11 ` Peter S. Mazinger
2006-05-23 17:08 ` Jan Meier
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