[gentoo-embedded] SATA on Pandaboard?

[gentoo-embedded] SATA on Pandaboard?

[wireless]

Hello,

Well color me a convert!

I just was reading about the panda board. It
looks very cool. I did not see a SATA  or IDE
bus support? Is this possible? Or is
SD my only choice?

Also, kudos to Armin for this doc:

http://dev.gentoo.org/~armin76/arm/pandaboard/install.xml#doc_chap10


http://www.omappedia.com/wiki/File:PandaBoard_Setup.png

Re: [gentoo-embedded] SATA on Pandaboard?

[Peter Stuge]

wireless wrote:
> I did not see a SATA  or IDE bus support? Is this possible? Or is
> SD my only choice?

I would ask in the right community to get better answers.

But the pictures at least clearly show USB connectors besides SD.


//Peter

Re: [gentoo-embedded] SATA on Pandaboard?

[wireless]

Previously you wrote:
> wireless wrote:
>> I did not see a SATA  or IDE bus support? Is this possible? Or is
>> SD my only choice?
> 
> I would ask in the right community to get better answers.
> But the pictures at least clearly show USB connectors besides SD.

I looked at the schematic and saw nothing. I saw
the USB, but wanted SATA, as in a home-built
Netbook type of application was my immediate desire.
 With that kind of processing power and DVI & HDMI out, I
had a hard time believing there is no SATA native
or hacked hardware solution. It's intended for mobile,
so why not support sata (for laptop size HD)?
Hard to believe that was missed or is not forthcoming,
imho.

http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/embedded/handbook/?part=4&chap=9


I looked at the url above and saw no listing of sata.
I read about this off of the gentoo embedded handbook
as the latest entry {boards 9}, so I was hoping Armin or
somebody had tried Sata or knew of a Sata solution for this
hardware maybe in a different (newly pending) version of the
processor or board. This is the right community, since it is
clearly posted in the handbook.  I will post elsewhere and I
have already asked TI directly about sata support on that
OMAP family.... but no answers yet.


Much of the information and docs are just too new
to be complete.  Just like the previous OSWALD-gentoo
connection that I discovered, flushing  out a story in the
Linux Journal on this list, I hoped to uncover a deep
connection between PandaBoard and Gentoo........... Who
knows maybe somebody else on this list, besides Armin, is
deeply involved in the PandaBoard efforts. No doubt, since
the gerbers et. al. exist, it wont be long before somebody
puts a SATA bus interface, to this project. Me, I can think
of DNS servers (sata not required); AND mail servers and
media servers where SATA is critical, just off the top of my
head. Sure USB is ok, but native sata would be much cooler,
imho.  Power savings alone will pay for the $174(us) price
tag. I've already ordered one from digikey.

So sorry if I ruffled your feathers.....
(apologies, my Liege)!



James

Re: [gentoo-embedded] SATA on Pandaboard?

[Peter Stuge]

wireless wrote:
> I looked at the schematic and saw nothing. I saw
> the USB, but wanted SATA, as in a home-built
> Netbook type of application was my immediate desire.

I think you'll have to settle for USB unless you're prepared to build
an expansion board. But seems expansion will be USB as well.


> With that kind of processing power and DVI & HDMI out, I
> had a hard time believing there is no SATA native
> or hacked hardware solution.

I think you'll have to believe it. :) SATA requires transceivers
in about the same class as DVI/HDMI. I can certainly imagine that
only one set of transceivers would fit the chip area/price point,
and I think graphics was the right choice in that case.


> It's intended for mobile, so why not support sata (for laptop size HD)?

I think it's too "clunky" for the intentions of the OMAP.

And using a mechanical device in a mobile project is a bad idea. SSDs
sure, but they are only an afterthought since many devices already use
hard drives. If making a new platform or a new device, then best not
go that route, better use the flash controller and some NAND.


> Hard to believe that was missed or is not forthcoming, imho.

Maybe someone will make a SATA daughterboard, but since there's no
PCI bus it would have to be based on one of the USB->SATA chipsets
which are all pretty crappy. It could certainly be done though.


> I looked at the url above and saw no listing of sata.

I would look at something like the block diagram instead:

http://pandaboard.org/sites/default/files/PandaBoard_block_diagram.png


> This is the right community, since it is
> clearly posted in the handbook.

I didn't try to say that your question was inappropriate, I meant
that the "upstream" pandaboard.org community would know way more
about the topic, including past ongoing and future efforts, so it
would likely be more rewarding to ask there.


> I will post elsewhere and
> I have already asked TI directly about sata support on that
> OMAP family.... but no answers yet.

Have a look at the documentation that they have published..

Google OMAP4430, first hit:

OMAP™ 4 Platform - OMAP4430/OMAP4440
http://focus.ti.com/general/docs/wtbu/wtbuproductcontent.tsp?contentId=53243&navigationId=12843&templateId=6123

First link on that page:

Chip Block Diagram
http://focus.ti.com/en/graphics/wtbu/OMAP4430_zoom.jpg


> Much of the information and docs are just too new
> to be complete.

Most of TIs docs are nearly two years old.


> No doubt, since the gerbers et. al. exist, it wont be long before
> somebody puts a SATA bus interface, to this project.

I guess the ease of a $15 USB->SATA converter will mean most don't
bother.


> Me, I can think of DNS servers (sata not required); AND mail
> servers and media servers where SATA is critical,

Hehe. I wouldn't trust SATA drives for critical things. But I
certainly agree that Cortex-A will reach into the server market!


> just off the top of my head. Sure USB is ok, but native sata would
> be much cooler, imho.

Hm, why?


> So sorry if I ruffled your feathers.....

No feathers ruffled the least, just a thought that you could better
information elsewhere. Sorry if I was too terse and came off as
hating. I also think the board is very nice! :)


//Peter

Re: [gentoo-embedded] SATA on Pandaboard?

[wireless]

>> With that kind of processing power and DVI & HDMI out, I
>> had a hard time believing there is no SATA native
>> or hacked hardware solution.
> 
> I think you'll have to believe it. :) SATA requires transceivers
> in about the same class as DVI/HDMI. I can certainly imagine that
> only one set of transceivers would fit the chip area/price point,
> and I think graphics was the right choice in that case.

It's a SOC so I sure things could be reshuffled to get a
sata bus interface. Dropping the video is an excellent idea
for a mini server!


>> It's intended for mobile, so why not support sata (for laptop size HD)?
> 
> I think it's too "clunky" for the intentions of the OMAP.
> 
> And using a mechanical device in a mobile project is a bad idea. SSDs
> sure, but they are only an afterthought since many devices already use
> hard drives. If making a new platform or a new device, then best not
> go that route, better use the flash controller and some NAND.

You've got to be kidding me? I posted on Gentoo user a few
days ago (NOV 8th) about a netbook. The resounding number
one issue is avoid SSD and get a mechanical HD!
<from a pretty smart person>
"Those SSDs are shite. Get a mechanical drive. 8G is also
not enough and the write performance is pathetic. "


>> Hard to believe that was missed or is not forthcoming, imho.
> 
> Maybe someone will make a SATA daughterboard, but since there's no
> PCI bus it would have to be based on one of the USB->SATA chipsets
> which are all pretty crappy. It could certainly be done though.

USB 3.0 maybe, usb2.0 no way I would go that route. Besides
it just adds a layer of crap that is unnecessary....
> 
> 

> Chip Block Diagram
> http://focus.ti.com/en/graphics/wtbu/OMAP4430_zoom.jpg
> 

I saw that. Like I said NO SATA? hard to believe....
that's my gut reaction! (and I'm an embedded hardware type)....


>> Much of the information and docs are just too new
>> to be complete.
> 
> Most of TIs docs are nearly two years old.
> 

I see plenty of docs that are a few days/weeks old
related to this panda board and TI's commitment to
OMAP and open source BSPs.


>> No doubt, since the gerbers et. al. exist, it wont be long before
>> somebody puts a SATA bus interface, to this project.
> 
> I guess the ease of a $15 USB->SATA converter will mean most don't
> bother.

Hmn. I think this board will get re-spun loosing the video
and adding a sata port(s) and connectors (as you have
pointed out). That way you could house the board and a hard
drive into a mini box and put lots of parallel servers to
work. Easy to power up and down (at least the drive) to make
it very power efficient or to cluster.


> Hehe. I wouldn't trust SATA drives for critical things. But I
> certainly agree that Cortex-A will reach into the server market!

Sata is fine, particularly with technologies such as CEPH
and others coming of age. Many dual core A9's and lots of
cheap ram and sata drives will rule!  I'm redesigning a
video cluster for a large agency based on this new stuff!
Sata + pandaboard is exactly what we've been looking for!


(mi_Liege)
;-)    ;-)   ;-)
james

Re: [gentoo-embedded] SATA on Pandaboard?

[David Ford]

On 12/07/10 19:34, wireless wrote:
> [...
> You've got to be kidding me? I posted on Gentoo user a few
> days ago (NOV 8th) about a netbook. The resounding number
> one issue is avoid SSD and get a mechanical HD!
> <from a pretty smart person>
> "Those SSDs are shite. Get a mechanical drive. 8G is also
> not enough and the write performance is pathetic. "

from another pretty smart person - and an empirical relationship.  i have a dell w/ an SSD drive.  have had it for a year now.  it goes -everywhere- with me, daily.  physically, it's been dropped, kicked, whacked, you name it.  the SSD drive is still cruising along nicely.  for r/w workload, i run gentoo on it and do nightly ~x86 updates.  so the only rest it gets is the short period between finishing nightly updates and when i grab it and hit the road.  the only time it gets shut off is if i happen to run out of battery every few months.

it's not the same as a 15K drive, but then, it's not a 15K drive.  unless you want to pay really outlandish prices, you won't find that type of speed on a laptop.  it would eat batteries like bot snacks.

the really smart thing is to really know what sort of hardware you get/have, and understand how to pick $better kernel driver vs. $generic_fallback thingie.  you can't expect even a performance drive to operate smashingly if you're loading the generic i-can-just-barely-make-it-work driver :)

Re: [gentoo-embedded] SATA on Pandaboard?

[Kfir Lavi]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2049 bytes --]

On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 3:19 AM, David Ford <david@blue-labs.org> wrote:

> On 12/07/10 19:34, wireless wrote:
> > [...
> > You've got to be kidding me? I posted on Gentoo user a few
> > days ago (NOV 8th) about a netbook. The resounding number
> > one issue is avoid SSD and get a mechanical HD!
> > <from a pretty smart person>
> > "Those SSDs are shite. Get a mechanical drive. 8G is also
> > not enough and the write performance is pathetic. "
>
> from another pretty smart person - and an empirical relationship.  i have a
> dell w/ an SSD drive.  have had it for a year now.  it goes -everywhere-
> with me, daily.  physically, it's been dropped, kicked, whacked, you name
> it.  the SSD drive is still cruising along nicely.  for r/w workload, i run
> gentoo on it and do nightly ~x86 updates.  so the only rest it gets is the
> short period between finishing nightly updates and when i grab it and hit
> the road.  the only time it gets shut off is if i happen to run out of
> battery every few months.
>
> it's not the same as a 15K drive, but then, it's not a 15K drive.  unless
> you want to pay really outlandish prices, you won't find that type of speed
> on a laptop.  it would eat batteries like bot snacks.
>
> the really smart thing is to really know what sort of hardware you
> get/have, and understand how to pick $better kernel driver vs.
> $generic_fallback thingie.  you can't expect even a performance drive to
> operate smashingly if you're loading the generic
> i-can-just-barely-make-it-work driver :)
>
>
>
I feel I need to share my SSD data ;-)
I have a Lenovo x200 laptop with 60GB ssd from OCZ.

$ hdparm -tT /dev/sda

/dev/sda:
 Timing cached reads:   3746 MB in  2.00 seconds = 1874.96 MB/sec
 Timing buffered disk reads:  340 MB in  3.02 seconds = 112.67 MB/sec

I have a board with SD card that will perform 22 MB/sec. This is a ~5 fold
difference.

So it seems to me (I know it's not a double blind test), from my little
experience, that SD is not fast as SSD.
(please correct me if I'm wrong here).

Regards,
Kfir

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Re: [gentoo-embedded] SATA on Pandaboard?

[Manuel Lauss]

On Sat, Dec 25, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Kfir Lavi <lavi.kfir@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 3:19 AM, David Ford <david@blue-labs.org> wrote:
>>
>> On 12/07/10 19:34, wireless wrote:
>> > [...
>> > You've got to be kidding me? I posted on Gentoo user a few
>> > days ago (NOV 8th) about a netbook. The resounding number
>> > one issue is avoid SSD and get a mechanical HD!
>> > <from a pretty smart person>
>> > "Those SSDs are shite. Get a mechanical drive. 8G is also
>> > not enough and the write performance is pathetic. "
>>
>> from another pretty smart person - and an empirical relationship.  i have
>> a dell w/ an SSD drive.  have had it for a year now.  it goes -everywhere-
>> with me, daily.  physically, it's been dropped, kicked, whacked, you name
>> it.  the SSD drive is still cruising along nicely.  for r/w workload, i run
>> gentoo on it and do nightly ~x86 updates.  so the only rest it gets is the
>> short period between finishing nightly updates and when i grab it and hit
>> the road.  the only time it gets shut off is if i happen to run out of
>> battery every few months.
>>
>> it's not the same as a 15K drive, but then, it's not a 15K drive.  unless
>> you want to pay really outlandish prices, you won't find that type of speed
>> on a laptop.  it would eat batteries like bot snacks.
>>
>> the really smart thing is to really know what sort of hardware you
>> get/have, and understand how to pick $better kernel driver vs.
>> $generic_fallback thingie.  you can't expect even a performance drive to
>> operate smashingly if you're loading the generic
>> i-can-just-barely-make-it-work driver :)
>>
>>
>
> I feel I need to share my SSD data ;-)
> I have a Lenovo x200 laptop with 60GB ssd from OCZ.
>
> $ hdparm -tT /dev/sda
>
> /dev/sda:
>  Timing cached reads:   3746 MB in  2.00 seconds = 1874.96 MB/sec
>  Timing buffered disk reads:  340 MB in  3.02 seconds = 112.67 MB/sec
>
> I have a board with SD card that will perform 22 MB/sec. This is a ~5 fold
> difference.
>
> So it seems to me (I know it's not a double blind test), from my little
> experience, that SD is not fast as SSD.
> (please correct me if I'm wrong here).

Of course not:  The SD electrical interface is much simpler, cheaper,
and the protocol run over it is inefficient.  It was not initially designed
for high speed operation, but cheap implementation.

Manuel

Re: [gentoo-embedded] SATA on Pandaboard?

[Peter Stuge]

Kfir Lavi wrote:
> So it seems to me (I know it's not a double blind test), from my
> little experience, that SD is not fast as SSD.

That's completely right. As Manuel pointed out the connection to SD
cards can not run very fast.

SSDs on the other hand have a fairly fast serial interconnect; SATA.

I use a fast CF card in my laptop and have similar results to yours
over PATA.


//Peter

Re: [gentoo-embedded] SATA on Pandaboard?

[Peter Stuge]

wireless wrote:
> It's a SOC so I sure things could be reshuffled to get a
> sata bus interface. Dropping the video is an excellent idea
> for a mini server!

Cool idea! I guess it might require TI to spin a new chip though.


> > And using a mechanical device in a mobile project is a bad idea. SSDs
> > sure, but they are only an afterthought since many devices already use
> > hard drives. If making a new platform or a new device, then best not
> > go that route, better use the flash controller and some NAND.
> 
> You've got to be kidding me? I posted on Gentoo user a few
> days ago (NOV 8th) about a netbook. The resounding number
> one issue is avoid SSD and get a mechanical HD!
> <from a pretty smart person>
> "Those SSDs are shite. Get a mechanical drive. 8G is also
> not enough and the write performance is pathetic. "

Hehe. I wonder how mobile that person was. :)

Like David I am pretty mobile sometimes, and I have destroyed more
than one mechanical drive with wear and tear on the road. Now I have
a fast $250 64GB CF card on a PATA adapter in my old laptop, and it
is significantly faster for reads than any mechanical drive that I
could get. Write performance is about the same as a desktop 3.5"
7200rpm drive. Not too bad, considering it's a machine from 2005.

A new high-end SSD is certainly not shite in my book.

But I would actually recommend against SSDs for an embedded system as
the general rule, including SD or CF cards and any other consumer
devices. The major reason is that all wear leveling is being done in
the device, and that may not at all fit the usage pattern of the
device. There's an advantage in being able to control the wear
leveling e.g. as part of a filesystem in the kernel.

And of course the interfaces and controllers need power, and maybe
the NAND flash controller inside the OMAP can not be powered down
completely.


> > Maybe someone will make a SATA daughterboard, but since there's no
> > PCI bus it would have to be based on one of the USB->SATA chipsets
> > which are all pretty crappy. It could certainly be done though.
> 
> USB 3.0 maybe, usb2.0 no way I would go that route.

High-speed USB is 480Mbps on the wire. There is some overhead for the
bus, but >40Mbyte/s sustained data rate is certainly possible, even
without writing a kernel driver.


> Besides it just adds a layer of crap that is unnecessary....

The command set is ATA also for USB Mass Storage Class, so at least
it is only a matter of transport, rather than translation. I don't
think it's all too bad, except that the USB->SATA chipsets I've seen
are cheap and sad.


> >> Much of the information and docs are just too new
> >> to be complete.
> > 
> > Most of TIs docs are nearly two years old.
> 
> I see plenty of docs that are a few days/weeks old
> related to this panda board and TI's commitment to
> OMAP and open source BSPs.

Ah yes, the pandaboard is new, that's very true. But since the chip
has been documented for a while I guess it can be considered rather
stable.


> Hmn. I think this board will get re-spun loosing the video
> and adding a sata port(s) and connectors (as you have
> pointed out).

Except the chip probably does not have SATA controller logic.
But maybe TI will make one. Again, yes, cool idea!

Maybe someone like Marvell who are already doing SATA controllers
will/do have an Cortex-A chip with SATA?

Hits from Google cortex-a9 sata:

Samsung Orion
http://www.samsung.com/global/business/semiconductor/newsView.do?news_id=1195

"Taipei, Taiwan - September 7, 2010 : Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd.,
a world leader in advanced semiconductor solutions, today introduced
its new 1GHz ARM® CORTEX™ A9-based dual-core application processor,
codenamed Orion, for advanced mobile applications."

..

"For example, with this processor, customers have the choice to use
different types of storage including NAND flash, moviNAND™, SSD or
HDD providing both SATA, and eMMC interfaces."


ST SPEAr1310
http://www.st.com/internet/mcu/product/250658.jsp
http://www.st.com/internet/com/TECHNICAL_RESOURCES/TECHNICAL_LITERATURE/DATA_BRIEF/CD00274166.pdf

Dual-core Cortex A9 embedded MPU for communications

CPU subsystem:
– 2x ARM Cortex A9 cores, up to 600 MHz

..

Connectivity:
– 2x Giga/Fast Ethernet ports (for external GMII/RGMII/MII PHY)
– 3x Fast Ethernet (for external SMII/RMII PHY)
– 3x PCIe 2.0 links (embedded PHY)
– 3x SATA gen-2 host port
– 1x 32-bit PCI expansion bus (up to 66 MHz)
– 2x USB 2.0 host ports with integrated PHYs
– 1x USB2.0 OTG port with integrated PHY
– 2x CAN 2.0 a/b interfaces
– 2x TDM/E1 HDLC controllers with 256/32 time slots per frame respectively
– 2x HDLC controllers for external RS485 PHYs
– 2x I2S ports for external audio/modem
– 6x UARTs (up to 5 Mbaud)
– 1x SSP port (SPI and other protocols), master/slave, up to 41 Mbps
– 2x I2C ports master/slave


I guess the Samsung device is a little further into the future, but
also more powerful.


//Peter

Re: [gentoo-embedded] SATA on Pandaboard?

[wireless]

Previously you wrote:

> ST SPEAr1310
> http://www.st.com/internet/mcu/product/250658.jsp
> http://www.st.com/internet/com/TECHNICAL_RESOURCES/TECHNICAL_LITERATURE/DATA_BRIEF/CD00274166.pdf
> 
> Dual-core Cortex A9 embedded MPU for communications
> 
> CPU subsystem:
> \x13 2x ARM Cortex A9 cores, up to 600 MHz
> 
> ..
> 
> Connectivity:
> \x13 2x Giga/Fast Ethernet ports (for external GMII/RGMII/MII PHY)
> \x13 3x Fast Ethernet (for external SMII/RMII PHY)
> \x13 3x PCIe 2.0 links (embedded PHY)
> \x13 3x SATA gen-2 host port
> \x13 1x 32-bit PCI expansion bus (up to 66 MHz)
> \x13 2x USB 2.0 host ports with integrated PHYs
> \x13 1x USB2.0 OTG port with integrated PHY
> \x13 2x CAN 2.0 a/b interfaces
> \x13 2x TDM/E1 HDLC controllers with 256/32 time slots per frame respectively
> \x13 2x HDLC controllers for external RS485 PHYs
> \x13 2x I2S ports for external audio/modem
> \x13 6x UARTs (up to 5 Mbaud)
> \x13 1x SSP port (SPI and other protocols), master/slave, up to 41 Mbps
> \x13 2x I2C ports master/slave
> 


ST via Avnet, is being a real bone-head about this chip....
They told me, about a month ago, it is only for 'very large
customers'. Surely the dual(quad) core A9 chips will be
abundant in the not so distant future.

ST sucks....imho. Just look at how pathetic there
embedded linux offerings actually are.....


> I guess the Samsung device is a little further into the future, but
> also more powerful.

Sure, there will be many that adopt multi-core A9 technology
from Arm Ltd......

thanks
James