From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org ([208.92.234.80] helo=lists.gentoo.org) by finch.gentoo.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1PI4Nz-0005dr-Sr for garchives@archives.gentoo.org; Mon, 15 Nov 2010 19:06:40 +0000 Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 71070E0912 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2010 19:06:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: from foo.birdnet.se (foo.birdnet.se [213.88.146.6]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E227EE07DF for ; Mon, 15 Nov 2010 18:53:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 4014 invoked by uid 501); 15 Nov 2010 18:53:07 -0000 Message-ID: <20101115185307.4013.qmail@stuge.se> Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 19:53:07 +0100 From: Peter Stuge To: gentoo-embedded@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-embedded] OT: HiTech-C question Mail-Followup-To: gentoo-embedded@lists.gentoo.org References: <20101114211024.350fb808@osage.osagesoftware.com> <4CE117EC.5050704@tampabay.rr.com> <4CE126AE.2@gmail.com> <4CE14778.8070209@tampabay.rr.com> <20101115160520.16970.qmail@stuge.se> <4CE17835.7080301@tampabay.rr.com> Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-embedded@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-embedded@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4CE17835.7080301@tampabay.rr.com> X-Archives-Salt: 20006ce3-c1fa-4f9c-a69b-638079111c4c X-Archives-Hash: 18363392bcfae902d5de2c1e9d1beb0c wireless wrote: > > It's not a realistic spec for any microcontroller. Please try again, > > with more care. You can get most of what you want in a single package > > but not all of it. Unless of course you make your own.. Take an Actel > > M1A3P250 with an ARM Cortex-M1 hardcore, then you could easily fit > > all those peripherals in one package. > > Oh sure it is, but not in the 32 bit world. You can get one, but will end up with a much larger chip, in order to find one which has all the things you needed, and it'll also have a ton of other stuff that you don't need. To a degree I think this goes for all processor makers, but granted, Microchip really have very many parts with only small peripheral differences. :) > > M1A3P250 starts at $11.99 at Future Electronics. (MOQ=180, was 90 before) > > But maybe you'll be able to put something else on the board into the > > FPGA to balance that extra cost. > > yes, 32 bit and dsp processors have come way down on price. The M1A3P250 is not a processor, it's a processor and FPGA combined. > But, when you look at building a complete embedded system, > those high end processors eat you alive on external > component count and manufacturing costs. The point that this thread tries to make is that all 32-bit processors are not "high end" as you might be used to. In particular the Cortex-M products are quite fuss free. A handful of caps is really all you need. That goes for the M1-enabled FPGA too. > That board I just spec'd cost less that $30 to manufacture, with a > PIC and every thing else that I did not require, like molex > connectors and such. I think the cost would not be significantly higher if using something more powerful than a PIC, and the other point this thread tries to make is that the development work would be significantly easier, netting a total reduced cost. > > As you see, part cost is no problem for ARM, but you'll need more > > than one component for your project however you do it. > > PRECISELY!; a 32 bit part can never compete with a micro if > specs are tight and cost/power requirements are astringent, > which most are. Certainly anything that is manufacutured in > lots of 10 or more, every penny counts and cost reduction > rules the decision process, never what some employee or > consult "likes". They (32+) only compete when you actually > need all those mips and mops, which is rare for the vast > majority of uP based products. I think you would benefit from re-evaluating this position, quickly. And of course it is simply folly to save on production cost in a small (1k, 10k) run if there is a noticeable tradeoff to be made with software/firmware development effort. For lots of 10, 100, 1000 and even 10000, pennies in production are irrelevant, they translate to just a few hours worth of development time. I haven't looked closely at the power numbers for M0, so for power, physical size and mass production I agree that it remains very important to choose parts very carefully. But ARM cores have quite significant benefits in development, and especially with Cortex-M0 they are eating up big parts of what used to be an 8- or 16-bit only market. > Don't believe me, just do a little research into the numbers, This is my point too. > Fairchild and such won't even talk to you about > anything less than 1M in qty per quarter. That's certainly not my experience from (in particular) Fairchild. > For large companies, those (8/16)uP are sub $1, for qty 10k or > more....... Some companies sell uP for pennies, just > to get the supply contract for the passives and such > on really large deals. Of course it may be significant to save $1 (vs. the $1.46 ARM in 100qty, assuming you can get down to $0.46 for something else) for a 10k run, but certainly not for a 100qty run. It buys just one hour of development time. > 8/16 STILL rules the world and dominates the economics of embedded. The state today is mostly uninteresting IMO, I find what happens tomorrow all the more interesting. ARM is quickly taking a big part of the market. > Granted 32 bit cores that run linux are very cool and preferred by > most embedded folks, but, that's a very small number of design wins > with big quantity (cell phones for example), compared to their > mature brethren (8/16). That's comparing apples and oranges. I think you should really take a look at the smallest ARM cores. > and yes, I like ARM very much, particularly in areas of > low power design, relative to intel or amd. While more on-topic for gentoo-embedded that is only the Cortex-A parts, which is on the opposite end of ARM's line card. Look into the Cortex-Ms. //Peter