[gentoo-dev] [PATCH] glep-0076: Require real name instead of legal name

[gentoo-dev] [PATCH] glep-0076: Require real name instead of legal name

[Anna Vyalkova]

This patch uses more friendly language towards potential transgender
and plural contributors.

No other projects require to use a legal name, e.g. Linux says to use
your real name[0].

Government issued documents are really a bad example since in some
countries it's really hard to get your name changed there.

[0]: https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/process/submitting-patches.html#sign-your-work-the-developer-s-certificate-of-origin

Closes: https://bugs.gentoo.org/805575
Signed-off-by: Anna Vyalkova <cyber+gentoo@sysrq.in>
---
 glep-0076.rst | 4 ++--
 1 file changed, 2 insertions(+), 2 deletions(-)

diff --git a/glep-0076.rst b/glep-0076.rst
index 2216483..27db00a 100644
--- a/glep-0076.rst
+++ b/glep-0076.rst
@@ -137,8 +137,8 @@ the Certificate of Origin by adding ::
     Signed-off-by: Name <e-mail>
 
 to the commit message as a separate line.  The sign-off must contain
-the committer's legal name as a natural person, i.e., the name that
-would appear in a government issued document.
+the committer's real name as a natural person, i.e., the name that
+you would use to present yourself to your colleagues.
 
 The following is the current Gentoo Certificate of Origin, revision 1:
 
-- 
2.35.1

Re: [gentoo-dev] [PATCH] glep-0076: Require real name instead of legal name

[John Helmert III]

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On Tue, Jul 12, 2022 at 05:28:36AM +0500, Anna Vyalkova wrote:
> This patch uses more friendly language towards potential transgender
> and plural contributors.
> 
> No other projects require to use a legal name, e.g. Linux says to use
> your real name[0].

I'm not sure there are *none*, but nevertheless I think this is a
useful change. Thanks for doing this!

> Government issued documents are really a bad example since in some
> countries it's really hard to get your name changed there.
> 
> [0]: https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/process/submitting-patches.html#sign-your-work-the-developer-s-certificate-of-origin
> 
> Closes: https://bugs.gentoo.org/805575
> Signed-off-by: Anna Vyalkova <cyber+gentoo@sysrq.in>
> ---
>  glep-0076.rst | 4 ++--
>  1 file changed, 2 insertions(+), 2 deletions(-)
> 
> diff --git a/glep-0076.rst b/glep-0076.rst
> index 2216483..27db00a 100644
> --- a/glep-0076.rst
> +++ b/glep-0076.rst
> @@ -137,8 +137,8 @@ the Certificate of Origin by adding ::
>      Signed-off-by: Name <e-mail>
>  
>  to the commit message as a separate line.  The sign-off must contain
> -the committer's legal name as a natural person, i.e., the name that
> -would appear in a government issued document.
> +the committer's real name as a natural person, i.e., the name that
> +you would use to present yourself to your colleagues.
>  
>  The following is the current Gentoo Certificate of Origin, revision 1:
>  
> -- 
> 2.35.1
> 
> 

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [PATCH] glep-0076: Require real name instead of legal name

[Michał Górny]

On Tue, 2022-07-12 at 05:28 +0500, Anna Vyalkova wrote:
> This patch uses more friendly language towards potential transgender
> and plural contributors.
> 
> No other projects require to use a legal name, e.g. Linux says to use
> your real name[0].
> 
> Government issued documents are really a bad example since in some
> countries it's really hard to get your name changed there.
> 
> [0]: https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/process/submitting-patches.html#sign-your-work-the-developer-s-certificate-of-origin
> 
> Closes: https://bugs.gentoo.org/805575
> Signed-off-by: Anna Vyalkova <cyber+gentoo@sysrq.in>
> ---
>  glep-0076.rst | 4 ++--
>  1 file changed, 2 insertions(+), 2 deletions(-)
> 
> diff --git a/glep-0076.rst b/glep-0076.rst
> index 2216483..27db00a 100644
> --- a/glep-0076.rst
> +++ b/glep-0076.rst
> @@ -137,8 +137,8 @@ the Certificate of Origin by adding ::
>      Signed-off-by: Name <e-mail>
>  
>  to the commit message as a separate line.  The sign-off must contain
> -the committer's legal name as a natural person, i.e., the name that
> -would appear in a government issued document.
> +the committer's real name as a natural person, i.e., the name that
> +you would use to present yourself to your colleagues.
> 

This is insensitive to people who don't have any colleagues.

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny

Re: [gentoo-dev] [PATCH] glep-0076: Require real name instead of legal name

[Ulrich Mueller]

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>>>>> On Tue, 12 Jul 2022, Michał Górny wrote:

>>  to the commit message as a separate line.  The sign-off must contain
>> -the committer's legal name as a natural person, i.e., the name that
>> -would appear in a government issued document.
>> +the committer's real name as a natural person, i.e., the name that
>> +you would use to present yourself to your colleagues.

> This is insensitive to people who don't have any colleagues.

The snarkiness of Michał's comment left aside, in general "the name that
you would use to present yourself to your colleagues" won't work. It is
one of the examples in [1]:

| 4. People have, at this point in time, one full name which they go by.
| Not so, even in Western countries, where a woman may choose to retain
| her unmarried name at work (where she is already known by that name),
| and use her husband’s surname on social occasions, and even on legal
| documents such as mortgages and loans.

(IIRC, robbat2 had once pointed me to that document, in the context of
a contributor from South India with a single-letter name.)

Ulrich

[1] https://shinesolutions.com/2018/01/08/falsehoods-programmers-believe-about-names-with-examples/

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [PATCH] glep-0076: Require real name instead of legal name

[Mike Gilbert]

On Tue, Jul 12, 2022 at 7:47 AM Ulrich Mueller <ulm@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> >>>>> On Tue, 12 Jul 2022, Michał Górny wrote:
>
> >>  to the commit message as a separate line.  The sign-off must contain
> >> -the committer's legal name as a natural person, i.e., the name that
> >> -would appear in a government issued document.
> >> +the committer's real name as a natural person, i.e., the name that
> >> +you would use to present yourself to your colleagues.
>
> > This is insensitive to people who don't have any colleagues.
>
> The snarkiness of Michał's comment left aside, in general "the name that
> you would use to present yourself to your colleagues" won't work. It is
> one of the examples in [1]:
>
> | 4. People have, at this point in time, one full name which they go by.
> | Not so, even in Western countries, where a woman may choose to retain
> | her unmarried name at work (where she is already known by that name),
> | and use her husband’s surname on social occasions, and even on legal
> | documents such as mortgages and loans.

So what's the problem? That people can have more than one "real name"?
Can't they just pick one?

Re: [gentoo-dev] [PATCH] glep-0076: Require real name instead of legal name

[Ulrich Mueller]

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>>>>> On Tue, 12 Jul 2022, Mike Gilbert wrote:

>> The snarkiness of Michał's comment left aside, in general "the name that
>> you would use to present yourself to your colleagues" won't work. It is
>> one of the examples in [1]:
>> 
>> | 4. People have, at this point in time, one full name which they go by.
>> | Not so, even in Western countries, where a woman may choose to retain
>> | her unmarried name at work (where she is already known by that name),
>> | and use her husband’s surname on social occasions, and even on legal
>> | documents such as mortgages and loans.

> So what's the problem? That people can have more than one "real name"?
> Can't they just pick one?

With the suggested new wording she would have to use the name by which
she is known at work. That may not be the name she prefers otherwise.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [PATCH] glep-0076: Require real name instead of legal name

[Mike Gilbert]

On Tue, Jul 12, 2022 at 12:37 PM Ulrich Mueller <ulm@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> >>>>> On Tue, 12 Jul 2022, Mike Gilbert wrote:
>
> >> The snarkiness of Michał's comment left aside, in general "the name that
> >> you would use to present yourself to your colleagues" won't work. It is
> >> one of the examples in [1]:
> >>
> >> | 4. People have, at this point in time, one full name which they go by.
> >> | Not so, even in Western countries, where a woman may choose to retain
> >> | her unmarried name at work (where she is already known by that name),
> >> | and use her husband’s surname on social occasions, and even on legal
> >> | documents such as mortgages and loans.
>
> > So what's the problem? That people can have more than one "real name"?
> > Can't they just pick one?
>
> With the suggested new wording she would have to use the name by which
> she is known at work. That may not be the name she prefers otherwise.

The suggested wording uses that as an example.

Re: [gentoo-dev] [PATCH] glep-0076: Require real name instead of legal name

[Andrew Ammerlaan]

On 12/07/2022 13:47, Ulrich Mueller wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 12 Jul 2022, Michał Górny wrote:
> 
>>>   to the commit message as a separate line.  The sign-off must contain
>>> -the committer's legal name as a natural person, i.e., the name that
>>> -would appear in a government issued document.
>>> +the committer's real name as a natural person, i.e., the name that
>>> +you would use to present yourself to your colleagues.
> 
>> This is insensitive to people who don't have any colleagues.
> 
> The snarkiness of Michał's comment left aside, in general "the name that
> you would use to present yourself to your colleagues" won't work. It is
> one of the examples in [1]:
> 
> | 4. People have, at this point in time, one full name which they go by.
> | Not so, even in Western countries, where a woman may choose to retain
> | her unmarried name at work (where she is already known by that name),
> | and use her husband’s surname on social occasions, and even on legal
> | documents such as mortgages and loans.
> 
> (IIRC, robbat2 had once pointed me to that document, in the context of
> a contributor from South India with a single-letter name.)
> 
> Ulrich
> 
> [1] https://shinesolutions.com/2018/01/08/falsehoods-programmers-believe-about-names-with-examples/

I think this is the third time we've had the "real name" vs "legal name" 
discussion. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The "legal name" 
rule, as it is worded now, has no basis in reality. We do not enforce 
this, nor could we if we wanted to (unless of course we start requiring 
scans of e.g. drivers licenses before we accept contributions to Gentoo, 
which would be stupid). Truth is there is no way for any of us to know 
if the names we see and use in Gentoo are a persons "legal name".

Anna's wording is better, if only for the reason that it reflects 
reality better. In practice, all we actually do is apply our 
(unavoidably) biased 'common sense' to determine if some combination of 
symbols is, or could be, a "real name". And this is good enough because 
all we really need is some convenient semi-unique identifier to refer to 
a person in order to contact them, and to determine who is responsible 
for what. If "real name" is good enough for Linux why wouldn't it be 
good enough for us?

Best regards,
Andrew

Re: [gentoo-dev] [PATCH] glep-0076: Require real name instead of legal name

[Robin H. Johnson]

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(CC to gentoo-project as required by the GLEP itself).

On Tue, Jul 12, 2022 at 05:28:36AM +0500, Anna Vyalkova wrote:
> This patch uses more friendly language towards potential transgender
> and plural contributors.
> 
> No other projects require to use a legal name, e.g. Linux says to use
> your real name[0].
> 
> Government issued documents are really a bad example since in some
> countries it's really hard to get your name changed there.
Hi Anna,

There was a very long discussion in #gentoo-council IRC about this
today, with many sides represented.

I apologize I didn't follow who suggested some of the ideas first, so if
something was mis-credited, the fault lies with me.

The need is for GLEP76's name requirement to balance copyright protection with
complexities of jurisdictional naming complexities [4][5].

The kernel DCO says:
"using your real name (sorry, no pseudonyms or anonymous contributions.)"

Copyright law itself, at various levels (including US law and WIPO treaty
[CR001EN]) treaty does permit copyright held by pseudonyms in many cases.
But Copyright law also makes assumptions that some body, be it publisher or
government office, holds the "real" identity (which can be discovered by legal
or other actions), and the publisher holds some liability in this process.

Thus Copyright law tries to impose the need to associate a person with a
a copyrightable work.

Thus it raises two questions:
- Is the open source organization that receives a contribution a publisher in
  this case?
- If the organization is a publisher, does this mean they are required to
  implement some level of Know-Your-Customer (KYC) system?

This is all so messy :-(. Maybe we can approach it from a different angle.

The older version of the GLEP did use the term "real name", and it was
changed to "legal name" because the advice at the time is that "real
name" wasn't well-defined.
https://bugs.gentoo.org/653118
https://gitweb.gentoo.org/data/glep.git/commit/glep-0076.rst?id=5713e7e0fbeb37a74743f11c80da2d8bdd87acf2

I previously proposed amending it further:
https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-project/message/26d68349541e4db54a93edf57d6e7404

But in further discussion, even my proposal didn't go far enough.

Neither "real name" or "legal name" correctly convey the underlying intent
here, and both of them have additional unwanted baggage [1][2][3], and
disproportionately impact some population groups.

Tying this back together: 
The Foundation has *zero* desire to implement a KYC system, or to be the
holders of any non-public personal information. Esp. The Foundation does
not want to even have to look at ID documents. So it's not acceptable to
just have: "send your linkage between pseudonym and name-on-ID to
trustees".

What's really needed?
GLEP76 must show that Gentoo (as a legal entity: the current Foundation, or
future umbrella), has undertaken due diligence in accepting the contribution.

The discussion in #gentoo-council ended up producing a potential text that I'll
attached as a patch.

I'd like to thank the following for their contributions to the text.

kuzetsa CatSwarm <kuzetsa@searh.us> ** significant wording
Richard Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org>
John Helmert III <ajak@gentoo.org>
Ulrich Müller <ulm@gentoo.org>
Alec Warner <antarus@gentoo.org>

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle.net#Privacy_and_Real_ID
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook_real-name_policy_controversy
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nymwars
[4] Depending where you are, it can range from very easy to almost-impossible to change your name.
[5] In https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-project/message/26d68349541e4db54a93edf57d6e7404, I linked many other examples
[CR001EN] https://wipolex-res.wipo.int/edocs/lexdocs/laws/en/cr/cr001en.html

-- 
Robin Hugh Johnson
Gentoo Linux: Dev, Infra Lead, Foundation Treasurer
E-Mail   : robbat2@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP : 11ACBA4F 4778E3F6 E4EDF38E B27B944E 34884E85
GnuPG FP : 7D0B3CEB E9B85B1F 825BCECF EE05E6F6 A48F6136

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From 77a948ffecf97035a42359be0a0b40ad5059fe2f Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: "Robin H. Johnson" <robbat2@gentoo.org>
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 14:52:23 -0700
Subject: [PATCH] glep-0076: clarify name policy

Signed-off-by: Robin H. Johnson <robbat2@gentoo.org>
---
 glep-0076.rst | 29 +++++++++++++++++++++++------
 1 file changed, 23 insertions(+), 6 deletions(-)

diff --git glep-0076.rst glep-0076.rst
index 2216483..ce98ac8 100644
--- glep-0076.rst
+++ glep-0076.rst
@@ -5,12 +5,13 @@ Author: Richard Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org>,
         Alice Ferrazzi <alicef@gentoo.org>,
         Ulrich Müller <ulm@gentoo.org>,
         Robin H. Johnson <robbat2@gentoo.org>,
-        Michał Górny <mgorny@gentoo.org>
+        Michał Górny <mgorny@gentoo.org>,
+        kuzetsa CatSwarm <kuzetsa@searh.us>
 Type: Informational
 Status: Active
-Version: 1.1
+Version: 1.2
 Created: 2013-04-23
-Last-Modified: 2022-07-02
+Last-Modified: 2022-07-12
 Post-History: 2018-06-10, 2018-06-19, 2018-08-31, 2018-09-26
 Content-Type: text/x-rst
 ---
@@ -136,9 +137,8 @@ the Certificate of Origin by adding ::
 
     Signed-off-by: Name <e-mail>
 
-to the commit message as a separate line.  The sign-off must contain
-the committer's legal name as a natural person, i.e., the name that
-would appear in a government issued document.
+to the commit message as a separate line. The Name used is discussed in
+the next section.
 
 The following is the current Gentoo Certificate of Origin, revision 1:
 
@@ -179,6 +179,21 @@ commits with the Linux Kernel DCO 1.1 [#DCO-1.1]_.  This shall be
 indicated by adding ``(DCO-1.1)`` at the end of the ``Signed-off-by``
 line.  Using the Gentoo Certificate of Origin is strongly preferred.
 
+Contributor Name
+----------------
+Contributors must sign off on contributions with a name that can be made
+public and would pass copyright due diligence.
+
+Nothing further is required if the name matches a government issued
+document of the contributor.
+
+If the name does not match any government issued document, it must be a
+name that can be verified by simple records search, and/or attestable in
+a written statement, with a witnessed signature as before a notary.
+
+For the purposes of this policy, the Gentoo Foundation will not request
+any verification of the name until such time as required by government
+action or legal proceedings.
 
 Copyright Attribution
 ---------------------
@@ -344,6 +359,8 @@ In particular, the authors would like to thank David Abbott,
 Roy Bamford, Kristian Fiskerstrand, Andreas K. Hüttel, Manuel Rüger,
 Matija Šuklje, Matthew Thode, and Alec Warner for their input.
 
+For revision 1.2, further thanks are extended to kuzetsa CatSwarm,
+Richard Freeman, John Helmert III, Ulrich Müller and Alec Warner.
 
 References
 ==========
-- 
2.35.2


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [PATCH] glep-0076: Require real name instead of legal name

[Ulrich Mueller]

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>>>>> On Tue, 12 Jul 2022, Robin H Johnson wrote:
 
> -to the commit message as a separate line.  The sign-off must contain
> -the committer's legal name as a natural person, i.e., the name that
> -would appear in a government issued document.
> +to the commit message as a separate line. The Name used is discussed in
> +the next section.

The "natural person" part was lost in this change. It also doesn't
reappear in the added section below. I think we don't want any corporate
entities there (or at least that's what I had taken from the previous
"Sony" discussion).

> +Contributor Name
> +----------------

I just notice that it says "contributor" here while it is "committer"
above. Not sure which is better, but maybe we should use the same word
everywhere? 

> +Contributors must sign off on contributions with a name that can be made
> +public and would pass copyright due diligence.

Suggestion: "with their name as a natural person"

> +
> +Nothing further is required if the name matches a government issued
> +document of the contributor.
> +
> +If the name does not match any government issued document, it must be a
> +name that can be verified by simple records search, and/or attestable in
> +a written statement, with a witnessed signature as before a notary.
> +
> +For the purposes of this policy, the Gentoo Foundation will not request
> +any verification of the name until such time as required by government
> +action or legal proceedings.
 
> [...]

>  Roy Bamford, Kristian Fiskerstrand, Andreas K. Hüttel, Manuel Rüger,
>  Matija Šuklje, Matthew Thode, and Alec Warner for their input.
 
> +For revision 1.2, further thanks are extended to kuzetsa CatSwarm,
> +Richard Freeman, John Helmert III, Ulrich Müller and Alec Warner.
 
The authors thanking themselves would be very unusual in an
acknowledgement. :) I suggest to just add John Helmert III to the
existing list (keeping alphabetical order). All others are either
authors or are already mentioned.

Ulrich

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [PATCH] glep-0076: Require real name instead of legal name

[Robin H. Johnson]

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On Wed, Jul 13, 2022 at 02:26:43AM +0200, Ulrich Mueller wrote:
> The "natural person" part was lost in this change. It also doesn't
> reappear in the added section below. I think we don't want any corporate
> entities there (or at least that's what I had taken from the previous
> "Sony" discussion).
Will re-add to the name section.

For this section, I had a further thought and feel this is cleaner:
 to the commit message as a separate line.  The sign-off must contain
-the committer's legal name as a natural person, i.e., the name that
-would appear in a government issued document.
+the contributor's name as discussed in the next section.

> > +Contributor Name
> > +----------------
> I just notice that it says "contributor" here while it is "committer"
> above. Not sure which is better, but maybe we should use the same word
> everywhere? 
I think this might warrant a larger discussion.

The Kernel DCO is required for all patches, not just commits.

The GCO rev 1 text borrowed the same word: contribution.

Specifically the author of the contribution can easily be different from the
person committing it into a VCS. Contributors are a superset of committers.

At the same time, I've already seen developers ask contributors for a
sign-off, even when it's only the developer doing the commit; which isn't
required by the Gentoo policy as it's written today.

Maybe this specific commit that changes "legal name" should stick to
"committer", which the explicit plan to make the text 


> > +Contributors must sign off on contributions with a name that can be made
> > +public and would pass copyright due diligence.
> Suggestion: "with their name as a natural person"
Agreed & queued. Will incorporate after other discussion above is concluded.

> > +For revision 1.2, further thanks are extended to kuzetsa CatSwarm,
> > +Richard Freeman, John Helmert III, Ulrich Müller and Alec Warner.
> The authors thanking themselves would be very unusual in an
> acknowledgement. :) I suggest to just add John Helmert III to the
> existing list (keeping alphabetical order). All others are either
> authors or are already mentioned.
If I do that, the specific contributions of multiple parties already in the
author list are not acknowledged for this revision: rich0, antarus, ulm.

The new text was substantially written by myself, with the great suggestion
from kuzetsa, and then everybody else contributed good edits to it.

If you're happy to not take extra acknowledgement that this was for Rev 1.2,
I'll just tweak it to add kuzetsa to authors and ajak to thanks list.

-- 
Robin Hugh Johnson
Gentoo Linux: Dev, Infra Lead, Foundation Treasurer
E-Mail   : robbat2@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP : 11ACBA4F 4778E3F6 E4EDF38E B27B944E 34884E85
GnuPG FP : 7D0B3CEB E9B85B1F 825BCECF EE05E6F6 A48F6136

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [PATCH] glep-0076: Require real name instead of legal name

[Ulrich Mueller]

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>>>>> On Wed, 13 Jul 2022, Robin H Johnson wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 13, 2022 at 02:26:43AM +0200, Ulrich Mueller wrote:
>> The "natural person" part was lost in this change. It also doesn't
>> reappear in the added section below. I think we don't want any corporate
>> entities there (or at least that's what I had taken from the previous
>> "Sony" discussion).
> Will re-add to the name section.

> For this section, I had a further thought and feel this is cleaner:
>  to the commit message as a separate line.  The sign-off must contain
> -the committer's legal name as a natural person, i.e., the name that
> -would appear in a government issued document.
> +the contributor's name as discussed in the next section.

Good point, and much better. (In fact, in the previous version I
wondered why "Name" would have a capital letter, until I realized that
it referred to the example above.)

Also, with the new wording, you could say "contributor's name as a
natural person" here, and leave the next section alone. Just as a
suggestion, with no strong preference on my side.

>> > +Contributor Name
>> > +----------------
>> I just notice that it says "contributor" here while it is "committer"
>> above. Not sure which is better, but maybe we should use the same word
>> everywhere? 
> I think this might warrant a larger discussion.

> The Kernel DCO is required for all patches, not just commits.

> The GCO rev 1 text borrowed the same word: contribution.

> Specifically the author of the contribution can easily be different from the
> person committing it into a VCS. Contributors are a superset of committers.

> At the same time, I've already seen developers ask contributors for a
> sign-off, even when it's only the developer doing the commit; which isn't
> required by the Gentoo policy as it's written today.

Right, we require a signoff by the author for patches sent by e-mail, so
presumably contributor is better.

> Maybe this specific commit that changes "legal name" should stick to
> "committer", which the explicit plan to make the text

[Something seems to be missing from that sentence, but I believe I got
the meaning.]

Let's keep everything in one commit, because these changes are in the
same section and are closely related.

>> > +Contributors must sign off on contributions with a name that can be made
>> > +public and would pass copyright due diligence.
>> Suggestion: "with their name as a natural person"
> Agreed & queued. Will incorporate after other discussion above is concluded.

>> > +For revision 1.2, further thanks are extended to kuzetsa CatSwarm,
>> > +Richard Freeman, John Helmert III, Ulrich Müller and Alec Warner.
>> The authors thanking themselves would be very unusual in an
>> acknowledgement. :) I suggest to just add John Helmert III to the
>> existing list (keeping alphabetical order). All others are either
>> authors or are already mentioned.
> If I do that, the specific contributions of multiple parties already in the
> author list are not acknowledged for this revision: rich0, antarus, ulm.

> The new text was substantially written by myself, with the great suggestion
> from kuzetsa, and then everybody else contributed good edits to it.

So far we had followed the principle not to list authors in the
acknowledgements (which is worded "the authors would like to thank").
If we start adding them for revision 1.2, then we'd have to add more
names to the existing list.

> If you're happy to not take extra acknowledgement that this was for Rev 1.2,
> I'll just tweak it to add kuzetsa to authors and ajak to thanks list.

Please do. CCing rich0 and antarus, are you happy with this?

Another small point: Whitespace in the new section doesn't follow the
style in the rest of the GLEP, which uses two blank lines before and one
blank line after section headings, as well as two spaces at the end of
every sentence. (This is also what GLEP 2 says.)

Ulrich

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Re: [gentoo-project] Re: [gentoo-dev] [PATCH] glep-0076: Require real name instead of legal name

[Robin H. Johnson]

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Find attached v4 of the patch, with all of the proposed changes
included.

On Wed, Jul 13, 2022 at 09:24:25AM +0200, Ulrich Mueller wrote:
> >>>>> On Wed, 13 Jul 2022, Robin H Johnson wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, Jul 13, 2022 at 02:26:43AM +0200, Ulrich Mueller wrote:
> >> The "natural person" part was lost in this change. It also doesn't
> >> reappear in the added section below. I think we don't want any corporate
> >> entities there (or at least that's what I had taken from the previous
> >> "Sony" discussion).
> > Will re-add to the name section.
Clarified to exclude corporations.

> > For this section, I had a further thought and feel this is cleaner:
> >  to the commit message as a separate line.  The sign-off must contain
> > -the committer's legal name as a natural person, i.e., the name that
> > -would appear in a government issued document.
> > +the contributor's name as discussed in the next section.
> 
> Good point, and much better. (In fact, in the previous version I
> wondered why "Name" would have a capital letter, until I realized that
> it referred to the example above.)
> 
> Also, with the new wording, you could say "contributor's name as a
> natural person" here, and leave the next section alone. Just as a
> suggestion, with no strong preference on my side.
Done.

> > The new text was substantially written by myself, with the great suggestion
> > from kuzetsa, and then everybody else contributed good edits to it.
> 
> So far we had followed the principle not to list authors in the
> acknowledgements (which is worded "the authors would like to thank").
> If we start adding them for revision 1.2, then we'd have to add more
> names to the existing list.
How's the clarification now, making it clear those are the authors for
version 1.2?

> > If you're happy to not take extra acknowledgement that this was for Rev 1.2,
> > I'll just tweak it to add kuzetsa to authors and ajak to thanks list.
> Please do. CCing rich0 and antarus, are you happy with this?

> 
> Another small point: Whitespace in the new section doesn't follow the
> style in the rest of the GLEP, which uses two blank lines before and one
> blank line after section headings, as well as two spaces at the end of
> every sentence. (This is also what GLEP 2 says.)
Fixed - the blank lines were inconsistent in multiple places, but the
two spaces were correct.

-- 
Robin Hugh Johnson
Gentoo Linux: Dev, Infra Lead, Foundation Treasurer
E-Mail   : robbat2@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP : 11ACBA4F 4778E3F6 E4EDF38E B27B944E 34884E85
GnuPG FP : 7D0B3CEB E9B85B1F 825BCECF EE05E6F6 A48F6136

[-- Attachment #1.2: v4-0001-glep-0076-clarify-name-policy.patch --]
[-- Type: text/x-diff, Size: 3877 bytes --]

From 35d447a3db1ecceaa6e2e5d20412e8079180c81e Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: "Robin H. Johnson" <robbat2@gentoo.org>
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2022 12:50:08 -0700
Subject: [PATCH v4] glep-0076: clarify name policy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Merge discussion results about improving the name policy.

Fix whitespace for GLEP2 style:
- section heading: Two blank lines before, one blank line
- two spaces at the end of every sentence

Authorship for revision 1.2 changes: kuzetsa CatSwarm, Richard Freeman,
John Helmert III, Robin H. Johnson, Ulrich Müller, Alec Warner

Signed-off-by: Robin H. Johnson <robbat2@gentoo.org>
Reference: https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-project/message/c85b78ca69802522534ee8ab0804f665
Reference: https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/message/7d1ad38a1d77ea5726520d2ec90cffe4
---
 glep-0076.rst | 38 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++------
 1 file changed, 32 insertions(+), 6 deletions(-)

diff --git glep-0076.rst glep-0076.rst
index 2216483..5863b84 100644
--- glep-0076.rst
+++ glep-0076.rst
@@ -5,13 +5,15 @@ Author: Richard Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org>,
         Alice Ferrazzi <alicef@gentoo.org>,
         Ulrich Müller <ulm@gentoo.org>,
         Robin H. Johnson <robbat2@gentoo.org>,
-        Michał Górny <mgorny@gentoo.org>
+        Michał Górny <mgorny@gentoo.org>,
+        John Helmert III <ajak@gentoo.org>,
+        kuzetsa CatSwarm <kuzetsa@searh.us>
 Type: Informational
 Status: Active
-Version: 1.1
+Version: 1.2
 Created: 2013-04-23
-Last-Modified: 2022-07-02
-Post-History: 2018-06-10, 2018-06-19, 2018-08-31, 2018-09-26
+Last-Modified: 2022-10-21
+Post-History: 2018-06-10, 2018-06-19, 2018-08-31, 2018-09-26, 2022-07-12, 2022-10-21
 Content-Type: text/x-rst
 ---
 
@@ -83,6 +85,7 @@ copyright in a file.
 Specification
 =============
 
+
 Purpose / Scope
 ---------------
 
@@ -137,8 +140,7 @@ the Certificate of Origin by adding ::
     Signed-off-by: Name <e-mail>
 
 to the commit message as a separate line.  The sign-off must contain
-the committer's legal name as a natural person, i.e., the name that
-would appear in a government issued document.
+the contributor's name as discussed in the next section.
 
 The following is the current Gentoo Certificate of Origin, revision 1:
 
@@ -180,6 +182,25 @@ indicated by adding ``(DCO-1.1)`` at the end of the ``Signed-off-by``
 line.  Using the Gentoo Certificate of Origin is strongly preferred.
 
 
+Contributor Name
+----------------
+
+Contributors must sign off on contributions with their name as a natural
+person (not a corporation), that can be made public, and would pass
+copyright due diligence.
+
+Nothing further is required if the name matches a government issued
+document of the contributor.
+
+If the name does not match any government issued document, it must be a
+name that can be verified by simple records search, and/or attestable in
+a written statement, with a witnessed signature as before a notary.
+
+For the purposes of this policy, the Gentoo Foundation will not request
+any verification of the name until such time as required by government
+action or legal proceedings.
+
+
 Copyright Attribution
 ---------------------
 
@@ -230,6 +251,7 @@ list all authors of copyrightable contributions in an ``AUTHORS`` file.
 Rationale
 =========
 
+
 Policy
 ------
 
@@ -344,6 +366,10 @@ In particular, the authors would like to thank David Abbott,
 Roy Bamford, Kristian Fiskerstrand, Andreas K. Hüttel, Manuel Rüger,
 Matija Šuklje, Matthew Thode, and Alec Warner for their input.
 
+Version 1.2 contains contributions by kuzetsa CatSwarm, Richard
+Freeman, John Helmert III, Robin H. Johnson, Ulrich Müller, Alec
+Warner.
+
 
 References
 ==========
-- 
2.38.1


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Re: [gentoo-project] Re: [gentoo-dev] [PATCH] glep-0076: Require real name instead of legal name

[Michał Górny]

Hi,

I'm sorry to be late to the party but...

On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 19:50 +0000, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> +For the purposes of this policy, the Gentoo Foundation will not request
> +any verification of the name until such time as required by government
> +action or legal proceedings.

Given that we're talking about disbanding the Foundation, I'm not sure
if it's a good idea to reference it specifically in new GLEPs. 
Especially that to the best of my knowledge, Foundation doesn't really
get involved in gating new contributors.

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny

Re: [gentoo-project] Re: [gentoo-dev] [PATCH] glep-0076: Require real name instead of legal name

[Robin H. Johnson]

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On Sat, Oct 22, 2022 at 06:56:06AM +0200, Michał Górny wrote:
> On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 19:50 +0000, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> > +For the purposes of this policy, the Gentoo Foundation will not request
> > +any verification of the name until such time as required by government
> > +action or legal proceedings.
> Given that we're talking about disbanding the Foundation, I'm not sure
> if it's a good idea to reference it specifically in new GLEPs. 
> Especially that to the best of my knowledge, Foundation doesn't really
> get involved in gating new contributors.
I'll be clear, I hope to set precedent for the successor organization.

-- 
Robin Hugh Johnson
Gentoo Linux: Dev, Infra Lead, Foundation Treasurer
E-Mail   : robbat2@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP : 11ACBA4F 4778E3F6 E4EDF38E B27B944E 34884E85
GnuPG FP : 7D0B3CEB E9B85B1F 825BCECF EE05E6F6 A48F6136

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Re: [gentoo-project] Re: [gentoo-dev] [PATCH] glep-0076: Require real name instead of legal name

[Michał Górny]

On Sat, 2022-10-22 at 05:02 +0000, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> On Sat, Oct 22, 2022 at 06:56:06AM +0200, Michał Górny wrote:
> > On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 19:50 +0000, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> > > +For the purposes of this policy, the Gentoo Foundation will not request
> > > +any verification of the name until such time as required by government
> > > +action or legal proceedings.
> > Given that we're talking about disbanding the Foundation, I'm not sure
> > if it's a good idea to reference it specifically in new GLEPs. 
> > Especially that to the best of my knowledge, Foundation doesn't really
> > get involved in gating new contributors.
> I'll be clear, I hope to set precedent for the successor organization.
> 

I'm not sure if it'll work that way.  You could also read it as "GF
won't request it, somebody else may".

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny

Re: [gentoo-project] Re: [gentoo-dev] [PATCH] glep-0076: Require real name instead of legal name

[Ulrich Mueller]

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>>>>> On Sat, 22 Oct 2022, Michał Górny wrote:

> Hi,
> I'm sorry to be late to the party but...

> On Fri, 2022-10-21 at 19:50 +0000, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
>> +For the purposes of this policy, the Gentoo Foundation will not request
>> +any verification of the name until such time as required by government
>> +action or legal proceedings.

> Given that we're talking about disbanding the Foundation, I'm not sure
> if it's a good idea to reference it specifically in new GLEPs. 
> Especially that to the best of my knowledge, Foundation doesn't really
> get involved in gating new contributors.

Maybe just delete the sentence? If we were to require verification
then the GLEP would explicitly say so. IMHO there's little benefit
in mentioning things that we don't do.

Ulrich

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Re: [gentoo-project] Re: [gentoo-dev] [PATCH] glep-0076: Require real name instead of legal name

[Ulrich Mueller]

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>>>>> On Fri, 21 Oct 2022, Robin H Johnson wrote:

>> So far we had followed the principle not to list authors in the
>> acknowledgements (which is worded "the authors would like to thank").
>> If we start adding them for revision 1.2, then we'd have to add more
>> names to the existing list.

> How's the clarification now, making it clear those are the authors for
> version 1.2?

I'd still prefer a single list of acknowledgements in alphabetical
order, without any of the authors included. (But I don't have a strong
opinion, so if you absolutely want to have a separate paragraph for 1.2,
then go ahead.)

However, can we please keep the authors list (in the header) as-is?
If we're now going to include people for adding a single sentence or
suggestion, then we'd also have to list several (all?) of the persons
who are listed in the original acknowledgements.

>> Another small point: Whitespace in the new section doesn't follow the
>> style in the rest of the GLEP, which uses two blank lines before and one
>> blank line after section headings, as well as two spaces at the end of
>> every sentence. (This is also what GLEP 2 says.)

> Fixed - the blank lines were inconsistent in multiple places, but the
> two spaces were correct.

There shouldn't be double blank lines _after_ section headings (i.e.
only a single blank line after "Specification" and "Rationale") [1].

Ulrich

[1] https://www.gentoo.org/glep/glep-0002.html#id15

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[gentoo-dev] [PATCH v5] glep-0076: Require real name instead of legal name

[Robin H. Johnson]

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On Sat, Oct 22, 2022 at 08:55:09AM +0200, Ulrich Mueller wrote:
> > How's the clarification now, making it clear those are the authors for
> > version 1.2?
> I'd still prefer a single list of acknowledgements in alphabetical
> order, without any of the authors included. (But I don't have a strong
> opinion, so if you absolutely want to have a separate paragraph for 1.2,
> then go ahead.)
Paragraph kept.

> However, can we please keep the authors list (in the header) as-is?
> If we're now going to include people for adding a single sentence or
> suggestion, then we'd also have to list several (all?) of the persons
> who are listed in the original acknowledgements.
Done.

> >> Another small point: Whitespace in the new section doesn't follow the
> >> style in the rest of the GLEP, which uses two blank lines before and one
> >> blank line after section headings, as well as two spaces at the end of
> >> every sentence. (This is also what GLEP 2 says.)
> 
> > Fixed - the blank lines were inconsistent in multiple places, but the
> > two spaces were correct.
> There shouldn't be double blank lines _after_ section headings (i.e.
> only a single blank line after "Specification" and "Rationale") [1].
Fixed.

Also reworded to not say "Gentoo Foundation"; but still document the
intent about when verification could take place.

-- 
Robin Hugh Johnson
Gentoo Linux: Dev, Infra Lead, Foundation Treasurer
E-Mail   : robbat2@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP : 11ACBA4F 4778E3F6 E4EDF38E B27B944E 34884E85
GnuPG FP : 7D0B3CEB E9B85B1F 825BCECF EE05E6F6 A48F6136

[-- Attachment #1.2: v5-0001-glep-0076-clarify-name-policy.patch --]
[-- Type: text/x-diff, Size: 3492 bytes --]

From 376c235e0c78020adc3b5f8fa43c4f474dea8f64 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: "Robin H. Johnson" <robbat2@gentoo.org>
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2022 07:38:00 -0700
Subject: [PATCH v5] glep-0076: clarify name policy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Merge discussion results about improving the name policy.

Fix whitespace for GLEP2 style:
- two spaces at the end of every sentence
- section headings:
  - two blank lines before
  - one blank line after
  - one blank line for an empty section

Authorship for revision 1.2 changes: kuzetsa CatSwarm, Richard Freeman,
John Helmert III, Robin H. Johnson, Ulrich Müller, Alec Warner

Signed-off-by: Robin H. Johnson <robbat2@gentoo.org>
Reference: https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-project/message/c85b78ca69802522534ee8ab0804f665
Reference: https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/message/7d1ad38a1d77ea5726520d2ec90cffe4
---
 glep-0076.rst | 32 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++-----
 1 file changed, 27 insertions(+), 5 deletions(-)

diff --git glep-0076.rst glep-0076.rst
index 2216483..cdfa33e 100644
--- glep-0076.rst
+++ glep-0076.rst
@@ -8,10 +8,10 @@ Author: Richard Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org>,
         Michał Górny <mgorny@gentoo.org>
 Type: Informational
 Status: Active
-Version: 1.1
+Version: 1.2
 Created: 2013-04-23
-Last-Modified: 2022-07-02
-Post-History: 2018-06-10, 2018-06-19, 2018-08-31, 2018-09-26
+Last-Modified: 2022-10-22
+Post-History: 2018-06-10, 2018-06-19, 2018-08-31, 2018-09-26, 2022-07-12, 2022-10-21, 2022-10-22
 Content-Type: text/x-rst
 ---
 
@@ -83,6 +83,7 @@ copyright in a file.
 Specification
 =============
 
+
 Purpose / Scope
 ---------------
 
@@ -137,8 +138,7 @@ the Certificate of Origin by adding ::
     Signed-off-by: Name <e-mail>
 
 to the commit message as a separate line.  The sign-off must contain
-the committer's legal name as a natural person, i.e., the name that
-would appear in a government issued document.
+the contributor's name as discussed in the next section.
 
 The following is the current Gentoo Certificate of Origin, revision 1:
 
@@ -180,6 +180,24 @@ indicated by adding ``(DCO-1.1)`` at the end of the ``Signed-off-by``
 line.  Using the Gentoo Certificate of Origin is strongly preferred.
 
 
+Contributor Name
+----------------
+
+Contributors must sign off on contributions with their name as a natural
+person (not a corporation), that can be made public, and would pass
+copyright due diligence.
+
+Nothing further is required if the name matches a government issued
+document of the contributor.
+
+If the name does not match any government issued document, it must be a
+name that can be verified by simple records search, and/or attestable in
+a written statement, with a witnessed signature as before a notary.
+
+For the purposes of this policy, verification of the name will be deferred
+until such time as required by government action or legal proceedings.
+
+
 Copyright Attribution
 ---------------------
 
@@ -344,6 +362,10 @@ In particular, the authors would like to thank David Abbott,
 Roy Bamford, Kristian Fiskerstrand, Andreas K. Hüttel, Manuel Rüger,
 Matija Šuklje, Matthew Thode, and Alec Warner for their input.
 
+Version 1.2 contains contributions by kuzetsa CatSwarm, Richard
+Freeman, John Helmert III, Robin H. Johnson, Ulrich Müller, Alec
+Warner.
+
 
 References
 ==========
-- 
2.38.1


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[gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-project] [PATCH v5] glep-0076: Require real name instead of legal name

[Ulrich Mueller]

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>>>>> On Sat, 22 Oct 2022, Robin H Johnson wrote:

> On Sat, Oct 22, 2022 at 08:55:09AM +0200, Ulrich Mueller wrote:
>> I'd still prefer a single list of acknowledgements in alphabetical
>> order, without any of the authors included. (But I don't have a strong
>> opinion, so if you absolutely want to have a separate paragraph for 1.2,
>> then go ahead.)
> Paragraph kept.

>> However, can we please keep the authors list (in the header) as-is?
>> If we're now going to include people for adding a single sentence or
>> suggestion, then we'd also have to list several (all?) of the persons
>> who are listed in the original acknowledgements.
> Done.

>> There shouldn't be double blank lines _after_ section headings (i.e.
>> only a single blank line after "Specification" and "Rationale") [1].
> Fixed.

> Also reworded to not say "Gentoo Foundation"; but still document the
> intent about when verification could take place.

I've pushed this version (with more whitespace changes :) to a branch:
https://gitweb.gentoo.org/data/glep.git/log/?h=glep76

We can force-push an updated version (or add further commits) if
necessary.

Ulrich

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Re: [gentoo-project] Re: [gentoo-dev] [PATCH] glep-0076: Require real name instead of legal name

[Robin H. Johnson]

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On Sat, Oct 29, 2022 at 02:26:29AM -0400, kuzetsa CatSwarm wrote:
> hi, this is just a quick check to see if the updated wording still 
> covers the discussion I had in -council on liberachat earlier this year.
> 
> last version I had in git repo or patch format was from july:
> 
> https://gist.githubusercontent.com/kuzetsa/f9ff15998c2ae75fcb777c5a4f56dde4/raw/4c3314045de4437a277a738b96ef302fcc07a27c/0001-glep-0076-clarify-name-policy.patch
> 
> just wanting to sign off on the finalized version, and confirm the 
> contributions I made weren't subjected to a regression during various 
> edits and bikeshed-adjacent tweaks, etc.
Please see the other branch of this email thread:
https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-project/message/3fa6adb018736835f3b0406d7377148e

Direct link to the proposed patch:
https://gitweb.gentoo.org/data/glep.git/commit/?h=glep76&id=139198d2e8560f8dfb32c8f4c34a3e49d628b184

To summarize the substantive changes since your version:
- people, not corporations
- improve the verification statement, because the Gentoo Foundation will
  cease to be a legal entity (merging into some umbrella).

Non-substantive:
- bikeshed about who gets to be in Authors.
- formatting

- Robin

-- 
Robin Hugh Johnson
Gentoo Linux: Dev, Infra Lead, Foundation Treasurer
E-Mail   : robbat2@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP : 11ACBA4F 4778E3F6 E4EDF38E B27B944E 34884E85
GnuPG FP : 7D0B3CEB E9B85B1F 825BCECF EE05E6F6 A48F6136

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