[gentoo-dev] news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[gentoo-dev] news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto]

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Hi.

I propose to commit this news item in 2 or 3 days. Does anyone have
any comments about it?
The idea is to show this news item on all Gentoo systems. Is that even
possible / desirable?
I've talked with both the PR and Docs team before about this change.
I'll try to help the docs team updating the handbook.


Title: Changes on new stages
Author: Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto <jmbsvicetto@gentoo.org>
Content-Type: text/plain
Posted: 2012-07-27
Revision: 1
News-Item-Format: 1.0

Starting with catalyst 2.0.10, make.conf and make.profile will be
moved from /etc to /etc/postfix. Releng build boxes will be updated to
this catalyst version during the next few days. So I expect stages
built after July 30th to have make.conf and make.profile on /etc/portage.


- -- 
Regards,

Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org
Gentoo- forums / Userrel / Devrel / KDE / Elections / RelEng
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Re: [gentoo-dev] news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Diego Elio Pettenò]

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Il 23/07/2012 17:07, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto ha scritto:
> from /etc to /etc/postfix. 

Are you really sure? I don't think Portage looks for it there ... ;)

-- 
Diego Elio Pettenò — Flameeyes
flameeyes@flameeyes.eu — http://blog.flameeyes.eu/


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Re: [gentoo-dev] news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto]

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On 24-07-2012 00:19, Diego Elio Pettenò wrote:
> Il 23/07/2012 17:07, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto ha scritto:
>> from /etc to /etc/postfix.
> 
> Are you really sure? I don't think Portage looks for it there ...
> ;)

Thanks Diego for catching the typo.
It's obviously /etc/portage and not /etc/postfix.

- -- 
Regards,

Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org
Gentoo- forums / Userrel / Devrel / KDE / Elections / RelEng


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Re: [gentoo-dev] news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Doug Goldstein]

On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 7:07 PM, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto
<jmbsvicetto@gentoo.org> wrote:

<snip>

> Starting with catalyst 2.0.10, make.conf and make.profile will be
> moved from /etc to /etc/postfix. Releng build boxes will be updated to

s/postfix/portage/

<snip>

-- 
Doug Goldstein

Re: [gentoo-dev] news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Jory A. Pratt]

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On 07/23/2012 07:07 PM, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:
> Hi.
> 
> I propose to commit this news item in 2 or 3 days. Does anyone have
> any comments about it?
> The idea is to show this news item on all Gentoo systems. Is that even
> possible / desirable?
> I've talked with both the PR and Docs team before about this change.
> I'll try to help the docs team updating the handbook.
> 
> 
> Title: Changes on new stages
> Author: Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto <jmbsvicetto@gentoo.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain
> Posted: 2012-07-27
> Revision: 1
> News-Item-Format: 1.0
> 
> Starting with catalyst 2.0.10, make.conf and make.profile will be
> moved from /etc to /etc/postfix. Releng build boxes will be updated to
Why are we wanting to use a known packages config location? I am
refering to mail-mta/postfix of course.
> this catalyst version during the next few days. So I expect stages
> built after July 30th to have make.conf and make.profile on /etc/portage.
> 
Jory




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Re: [gentoo-dev] news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Rick "Zero_Chaos" Farina]

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On 07/23/2012 08:07 PM, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:
> Hi.
> 
> I propose to commit this news item in 2 or 3 days. Does anyone have
> any comments about it?
> The idea is to show this news item on all Gentoo systems. Is that even
> possible / desirable?
> I've talked with both the PR and Docs team before about this change.
> I'll try to help the docs team updating the handbook.
> 
> 
> Title: Changes on new stages
> Author: Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto <jmbsvicetto@gentoo.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain
> Posted: 2012-07-27
> Revision: 1
> News-Item-Format: 1.0
> 
> Starting with catalyst 2.0.10, make.conf and make.profile will be
> moved from /etc to /etc/postfix. Releng build boxes will be updated to
> this catalyst version during the next few days. So I expect stages
> built after July 30th to have make.conf and make.profile on /etc/portage.
> 
> 
> 
> 

A lot of things, app-portage/ufed for example, don't support this yet...

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[gentoo-dev] Re: news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Rich Freeman]

On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 8:07 PM, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto
<jmbsvicetto@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> I propose to commit this news item in 2 or 3 days. Does anyone have
> any comments about it?

What action if any do you want Gentoo users to take.  If I read that
news item the first question I'd have is where SHOULD I keep those
files?  Should I leave them alone?  Should I move them?  Will anything
bad happen either way?

If the answer is that we're changing the defaults but plan to support
the old way for a very long time, then spell that out.  Otherwise
you'll get a million people asking about it.

Rich

Re: [gentoo-dev] news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Brian Dolbec]

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On Mon, 2012-07-23 at 20:28 -0400, Rick "Zero_Chaos" Farina wrote:

> A lot of things, app-portage/ufed for example, don't support this yet...
> 

ufed is on the endanged species list, along with a few other app-portage
utilities. It hasn't been developed or maintained for some time now.  If
it is to survive, It'll need someone to step up and update it. 
-- 
Brian Dolbec <dolsen@gentoo.org>

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto]

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Hash: SHA1

On 24-07-2012 01:33, Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 8:07 PM, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto 
> <jmbsvicetto@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> 
>> I propose to commit this news item in 2 or 3 days. Does anyone
>> have any comments about it?
> 
> What action if any do you want Gentoo users to take.  If I read
> that news item the first question I'd have is where SHOULD I keep
> those files?  Should I leave them alone?  Should I move them?  Will
> anything bad happen either way?
> 
> If the answer is that we're changing the defaults but plan to
> support the old way for a very long time, then spell that out.
> Otherwise you'll get a million people asking about it.

This is just a heads-up for Gentoo users that got used to find
make.conf and make.profile under /etc in stages, that these files will
stop being there and will instead be under /etc/portage. So we are
changing the defaults.
About supporting the old way, that is beyond Releng and up to Portage
and maintainers of portage tools. I was told at least Portage has no
plan to drop support for /etc in the foreseeable future.

> Rich

- -- 
Regards,

Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org
Gentoo- forums / Userrel / Devrel / KDE / Elections / RelEng


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Rich Freeman]

On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 9:58 PM, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto
<jmbsvicetto@gentoo.org> wrote:
> This is just a heads-up for Gentoo users that got used to find
> make.conf and make.profile under /etc in stages, that these files will
> stop being there and will instead be under /etc/portage. So we are
> changing the defaults.

I'd spell that out then - just say that no action is required for
existing installations, but be aware of the new location on new
installs, or feel free to move them if you want.

Rich

Re: [gentoo-dev] news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Jesus Rivero (Neurogeek)]

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On Jul 23, 2012 9:43 PM, "Brian Dolbec" <dolsen@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 2012-07-23 at 20:28 -0400, Rick "Zero_Chaos" Farina wrote:
>
> > A lot of things, app-portage/ufed for example, don't support this yet...
> >
>
> ufed is on the endanged species list, along with a few other app-portage
> utilities. It hasn't been developed or maintained for some time now.  If
> it is to survive, It'll need someone to step up and update it.

I don't see a bug for this change for ufed.

I can take care of this change in ufed.

> --
> Brian Dolbec <dolsen@gentoo.org>

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Re: [gentoo-dev] news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Brian Dolbec]

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On Mon, 2012-07-23 at 22:22 -0400, Jesus Rivero (Neurogeek) wrote:
> 
> On Jul 23, 2012 9:43 PM, "Brian Dolbec" <dolsen@gentoo.org> wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, 2012-07-23 at 20:28 -0400, Rick "Zero_Chaos" Farina wrote:
> >
> > > A lot of things, app-portage/ufed for example, don't support this
> yet...
> > >
> >
> > ufed is on the endanged species list, along with a few other
> app-portage
> > utilities. It hasn't been developed or maintained for some time
> now.  If
> > it is to survive, It'll need someone to step up and update it.
> 
> I don't see a bug for this change for ufed.
> 
> I can take care of this change in ufed.
> 
> > --
> > Brian Dolbec <dolsen@gentoo.org>
> 
> 

Thank you.  Also I believe it does not support /etc/portage/package.use
as well.

Contact Fuzzyray about any change in ufed's status.  He recently started
a thread in the gentoo-portage-dev list to review the status of packages
we maintain.  Ufed being one without a maintainer/developer.
 
-- 
Brian Dolbec <dolsen@gentoo.org>

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[gentoo-dev] Re: news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Ben de Groot]

On 24 July 2012 08:07, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto
<jmbsvicetto@gentoo.org> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Hi.
>
> I propose to commit this news item in 2 or 3 days. Does anyone have
> any comments about it?
> The idea is to show this news item on all Gentoo systems. Is that even
> possible / desirable?
> I've talked with both the PR and Docs team before about this change.
> I'll try to help the docs team updating the handbook.
>
>
> Title: Changes on new stages
> Author: Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto <jmbsvicetto@gentoo.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain
> Posted: 2012-07-27
> Revision: 1
> News-Item-Format: 1.0
>
> Starting with catalyst 2.0.10, make.conf and make.profile will be
> moved from /etc to /etc/postfix. Releng build boxes will be updated to
> this catalyst version during the next few days. So I expect stages
> built after July 30th to have make.conf and make.profile on /etc/portage.

I'm assuming this is true for make.globals as well? That should be added
then. And as others have said, there really need to be instructions
what if anything should be done about current installations.

-- 
Cheers,

Ben | yngwin
Gentoo developer
Gentoo Qt project lead, Gentoo Wiki admin

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Diego Elio Pettenò]

Il 23/07/2012 20:34, Ben de Groot ha scritto:
> I'm assuming this is true for make.globals as well? That should be added
> then. And as others have said, there really need to be instructions
> what if anything should be done about current installations.

I actually thought make.globals was going to be installed in
/usr/share/portage nowadays?

-- 
Diego Elio Pettenò — Flameeyes
flameeyes@flameeyes.eu — http://blog.flameeyes.eu/

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Fabian Groffen]

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On 23-07-2012 22:10:08 -0400, Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 9:58 PM, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto
> <jmbsvicetto@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > This is just a heads-up for Gentoo users that got used to find
> > make.conf and make.profile under /etc in stages, that these files will
> > stop being there and will instead be under /etc/portage. So we are
> > changing the defaults.
> 
> I'd spell that out then - just say that no action is required for
> existing installations, but be aware of the new location on new
> installs, or feel free to move them if you want.

I still don't see why you'd bother all existing users with that info.
Just blog, or (better) write a nice email to -announce, and update the
install docs.

Also, can you exclude all Prefix profiles for this news item if you
insist on pushing it out?

Fabian

-- 
Fabian Groffen
Gentoo on a different level

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[gentoo-dev] Re: news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Sven Vermeulen]

On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 12:07:59AM +0000, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:
> I've talked with both the PR and Docs team before about this change.
> I'll try to help the docs team updating the handbook.

Speaking of which, will this also start the use of the SHA512 & WHIRLPOOL
checksums? We've had a bug open for it for a while (bug #386475) but the
digests still don't show this. If it is simultaneously, we'll need to fix
that as well.

Can current users also already use the /etc/portage location? If so, I can
already update the docs now (since I'll need to describe both of the
locations for a while anyhow).

Wkr,
	Sven Vermeulen

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Ralph Sennhauser]

On Tue, 24 Jul 2012 08:48:52 +0000
Sven Vermeulen <swift@gentoo.org> wrote:

> Can current users also already use the /etc/portage location? If so,
> I can already update the docs now (since I'll need to describe both
> of the locations for a while anyhow).

I moved my make.conf to the new location about a year ago.

Re: [gentoo-dev] news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Maxim Kammerer]

On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 3:07 AM, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto
<jmbsvicetto@gentoo.org> wrote:
> I propose to commit this news item in 2 or 3 days. Does anyone have
> any comments about it?

Several comments:

1. Maybe note that /etc/portage/make.conf takes precedence over /etc/make.conf?

2. New make.conf location (although supported) is not mentioned in
portage(5) man page for currently stable sys-apps/portage (2.1.10.65).

3. This news item is really useful, since the change has a potential
to break automated builds.

4. Are the other files / links in /etc also moving?

# ls -ld /etc/make.*
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 3554 Jul 24 09:20 /etc/make.conf
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root  421 Jul  3 22:03 /etc/make.conf.catalyst
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root   40 Jul 20 00:26 /etc/make.globals ->
../usr/share/portage/config/make.globals
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root   42 Jul 12 18:15 /etc/make.profile ->
../usr/portage/profiles/hardened/linux/x86

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Anthony G. Basile]

On 24 July 2012 08:07, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto 
<jmbsvicetto@gentoo.org> wrote:
>>
>> Title: Changes on new stages
>> Author: Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto<jmbsvicetto@gentoo.org>
>> Content-Type: text/plain
>> Posted: 2012-07-27
>> Revision: 1
>> News-Item-Format: 1.0
>>
>> Starting with catalyst 2.0.10, make.conf and make.profile will be
>> moved from /etc to /etc/postfix. Releng build boxes will be updated to
>> this catalyst version during the next few days. So I expect stages
>> built after July 30th to have make.conf and make.profile on /etc/portage.

I don't think you mean "from /etc to /etc/postfix" but "from /etc to 
/etc/portage".


-- 
Anthony G. Basile, Ph.D.
Gentoo Linux Developer [Hardened]
E-Mail    : blueness@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP  : 8040 5A4D 8709 21B1 1A88  33CE 979C AF40 D045 5535
GnuPG ID  : D0455535

Re: [gentoo-dev] news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Ralph Sennhauser]

On Tue, 24 Jul 2012 12:29:14 +0300
Maxim Kammerer <mk@dee.su> wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 3:07 AM, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto
> <jmbsvicetto@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > I propose to commit this news item in 2 or 3 days. Does anyone have
> > any comments about it?  
> 
> Several comments:
> 
> 1. Maybe note that /etc/portage/make.conf takes precedence
> over /etc/make.conf?
> 
> 2. New make.conf location (although supported) is not mentioned in
> portage(5) man page for currently stable sys-apps/portage (2.1.10.65).
> 

man 5 portage about files in /etc/portage

  make.conf
     The global custom settings for Portage. See make.conf(5). If
     present, this file will over‐ ride settings from /etc/make.conf.


> 3. This news item is really useful, since the change has a potential
> to break automated builds.

We aren't discussing dropping support for the old locations here but
about makeing the new location the default.

Re: [gentoo-dev] news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Maxim Kammerer]

On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 12:42 PM, Ralph Sennhauser <sera@gentoo.org> wrote:
>   make.conf
>      The global custom settings for Portage. See make.conf(5). If
>      present, this file will over‐ ride settings from /etc/make.conf.

Thanks — missed it somehow.

> We aren't discussing dropping support for the old locations here but
> about makeing the new location the default.

My point is that if you copy make.conf to /etc automatically, an
/etc/portage/make.conf in stage3 will break the procedure because it
takes precedence.

-- 
Maxim Kammerer
Liberté Linux: http://dee.su/liberte

Re: [gentoo-dev] news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Ulrich Mueller]

>>>>> On Tue, 24 Jul 2012, Maxim Kammerer wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 3:07 AM, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto
> <jmbsvicetto@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> I propose to commit this news item in 2 or 3 days. Does anyone have
>> any comments about it?

> Several comments:

> 1. Maybe note that /etc/portage/make.conf takes precedence over
> /etc/make.conf?

Does it? With make.profile it seems to be the other way around, i.e.
/etc takes precedence over /etc/portage.

Ulrich

Re: [gentoo-dev] news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Maxim Kammerer]

On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 1:11 PM, Ulrich Mueller <ulm@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Does it? With make.profile it seems to be the other way around, i.e.
> /etc takes precedence over /etc/portage.

Well, at least this discrepancy is documented (portage(5)):

“[/etc/portage/]make.conf: […] If present, this file will override
settings from /etc/make.conf.”
“If both /etc/make.profile/ and /etc/portage/make.profile/ exist, then
/etc/make.profile/ will be preferred.”
(no mention of /etc/make.globals, though — perhaps it can be removed
from stage3)

-- 
Maxim Kammerer
Liberté Linux: http://dee.su/liberte

Re: [gentoo-dev] news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 24-07-2012 00:07, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:
> Hi.
> 
> I propose to commit this news item in 2 or 3 days. Does anyone
> have any comments about it? The idea is to show this news item on
> all Gentoo systems. Is that even possible / desirable? I've talked
> with both the PR and Docs team before about this change. I'll try
> to help the docs team updating the handbook.

Taking into account the input in this thread, I've updated the
proposed news item.



Title: Changes on new stages
Author: Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto <jmbsvicetto@gentoo.org>
Content-Type: text/plain
Posted: 2012-07-27
Revision: 1
News-Item-Format: 1.0

Starting with catalyst 2.0.10, make.conf and make.profile will be
moved from /etc to /etc/portage. This is a change in the installation
defaults and since Portage will prefer make.conf under /etc/portage
over /etc, this is an heads-up for anyone doing new installs. If you
have a custom or automated method to install Gentoo, be sure to check
if its affected by this change.
Releng build boxes will be updated to this catalyst version during the
next few days. So I expect stages built after July 30th to have
make.conf and make.profile on /etc/portage.
Current users don't need to do anything. But if you want to follow the
preferred location, you may want to take the chance to move the files
in your system(s) to the new location.

- -- 
Regards,

Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org
Gentoo- forums / Userrel / Devrel / KDE / Elections / RelEng
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 24-07-2012 08:48, Sven Vermeulen wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 12:07:59AM +0000, Jorge Manuel B. S.
> Vicetto wrote:
>> I've talked with both the PR and Docs team before about this
>> change. I'll try to help the docs team updating the handbook.
> 
> Speaking of which, will this also start the use of the SHA512 &
> WHIRLPOOL checksums? We've had a bug open for it for a while (bug
> #386475) but the digests still don't show this. If it is
> simultaneously, we'll need to fix that as well.

I had forgotten to update the catalyst config files in poseidon (amd64
/ x86 build box). I've done that now.

> Can current users also already use the /etc/portage location? If
> so, I can already update the docs now (since I'll need to describe
> both of the locations for a while anyhow).

Yes, current installs can use the new location.

> Wkr, Sven Vermeulen
> 

- -- 
Regards,

Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org
Gentoo- forums / Userrel / Devrel / KDE / Elections / RelEng


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 24-07-2012 06:54, Fabian Groffen wrote:
> On 23-07-2012 22:10:08 -0400, Rich Freeman wrote:
>> On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 9:58 PM, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto 
>> <jmbsvicetto@gentoo.org> wrote:
>>> This is just a heads-up for Gentoo users that got used to find 
>>> make.conf and make.profile under /etc in stages, that these
>>> files will stop being there and will instead be under
>>> /etc/portage. So we are changing the defaults.
>> 
>> I'd spell that out then - just say that no action is required
>> for existing installations, but be aware of the new location on
>> new installs, or feel free to move them if you want.
> 
> I still don't see why you'd bother all existing users with that
> info. Just blog, or (better) write a nice email to -announce, and
> update the install docs.

The point of "bugging" all users was to minimize the risk of a user
not being aware of the change. If the general consensus is that this
should not be sent as news item (GLEP42), I'll drop itl

> Also, can you exclude all Prefix profiles for this news item if
> you insist on pushing it out?

I don't know the specific methods to filter news items, so if you or
others can help with that, I'd appreciate.
If anyone has particular suggestions about who should see this news
item, including the filter of how to achieve that, please let me know.

> Fabian
> 

- -- 
Regards,

Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org
Gentoo- forums / Userrel / Devrel / KDE / Elections / RelEng


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Re: [gentoo-dev] news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 24-07-2012 09:29, Maxim Kammerer wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 3:07 AM, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto 
> <jmbsvicetto@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> I propose to commit this news item in 2 or 3 days. Does anyone
>> have any comments about it?
> 
> Several comments:
> 
> 1. Maybe note that /etc/portage/make.conf takes precedence over
> /etc/make.conf?
> 
> 2. New make.conf location (although supported) is not mentioned in 
> portage(5) man page for currently stable sys-apps/portage
> (2.1.10.65).
> 
> 3. This news item is really useful, since the change has a
> potential to break automated builds.
> 
> 4. Are the other files / links in /etc also moving?
> 
> # ls -ld /etc/make.* -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 3554 Jul 24 09:20
> /etc/make.conf -rw-r--r-- 1 root root  421 Jul  3 22:03
> /etc/make.conf.catalyst lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root   42 Jul 12 18:15
> /etc/make.profile -> ../usr/portage/profiles/hardened/linux/x86

This is what we're moving with catalyst to /etc/portage

> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root   40 Jul 20 00:26 /etc/make.globals -> 
> ../usr/share/portage/config/make.globals

This symlink is installed by Portage, so it's outside catalyst control.

- -- 
Regards,

Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org
Gentoo- forums / Userrel / Devrel / KDE / Elections / RelEng


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Fabian Groffen]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1260 bytes --]

On 24-07-2012 10:59:08 +0000, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:
> > I still don't see why you'd bother all existing users with that
> > info. Just blog, or (better) write a nice email to -announce, and
> > update the install docs.
> 
> The point of "bugging" all users was to minimize the risk of a user
> not being aware of the change. If the general consensus is that this
> should not be sent as news item (GLEP42), I'll drop itl

I don't know about general consensus.  In my opinion, it's plain spam to
existing users.  (And that would IMO be the xth news item in a row to be
spam.)

> > Also, can you exclude all Prefix profiles for this news item if
> > you insist on pushing it out?
> 
> I don't know the specific methods to filter news items, so if you or
> others can help with that, I'd appreciate.
> If anyone has particular suggestions about who should see this news
> item, including the filter of how to achieve that, please let me know.

You can limit news items to certain profiles, so, you could make them
apply to the default/linux profiles, I guess.  Not sure if the FreeBSD
guys are affected by your catalyst change.  If so, they might want to be
included too.


-- 
Fabian Groffen
Gentoo on a different level

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Re: [gentoo-dev] news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Ulrich Mueller]

>>>>> On Tue, 24 Jul 2012, Maxim Kammerer wrote:

> Well, at least this discrepancy is documented (portage(5)):

> “[/etc/portage/]make.conf: […] If present, this file will override
> settings from /etc/make.conf.”
> “If both /etc/make.profile/ and /etc/portage/make.profile/ exist, then
> /etc/make.profile/ will be preferred.”

I'd suggest that this is made consistent. The new location should be
preferred.

> (no mention of /etc/make.globals, though — perhaps it can be removed
> from stage3)

Looks like is is installed by Portage:

   $ qfile /etc/make.globals 
   sys-apps/portage (/etc/make.globals)

Ulrich

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Rich Freeman]

On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 7:07 AM, Fabian Groffen <grobian@gentoo.org> wrote:
> I don't know about general consensus.  In my opinion, it's plain spam to
> existing users.  (And that would IMO be the xth news item in a row to be
> spam.)

Can't say I agree here.  Some news items have been more useful than
others, but I doubt the typical Gentoo user (who does not subscribe to
-dev) would think that many of the past messages have been spam.

Right now news is our only mechanism to warn users that something is
about to happen BEFORE it happens.  Anytime I talk to somebody who has
left Gentoo the #1 thing I tend to hear is that they were tired of
things just breaking without warning.  Even following -dev I've been
surprised by the odd upgrade - I can imagine the typical user would be
even more confused.

Long-time Gentoo users aren't going to notice in the handbook that the
location of /etc/make.conf has moved - I know that if I'm doing an
install I tend to use the handbook as a checklist but I skim through
it so fast that I doubt I'd notice a big change.  They're going to
appreciate a heads-up.  The only people who wouldn't consider it news
are those following this list, and judging by the state of this thread
you'll already have read 40 posts on the topic, so the 41st won't be
that big of a deal.

Rich

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Fabian Groffen]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1870 bytes --]

On 24-07-2012 07:20:31 -0400, Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 7:07 AM, Fabian Groffen <grobian@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > I don't know about general consensus.  In my opinion, it's plain spam to
> > existing users.  (And that would IMO be the xth news item in a row to be
> > spam.)
> 
> Can't say I agree here.  Some news items have been more useful than
> others, but I doubt the typical Gentoo user (who does not subscribe to
> -dev) would think that many of the past messages have been spam.

Ok.  This is subjective.

> Long-time Gentoo users aren't going to notice in the handbook that the
> location of /etc/make.conf has moved - I know that if I'm doing an
> install I tend to use the handbook as a checklist but I skim through
> it so fast that I doubt I'd notice a big change.  They're going to
> appreciate a heads-up.  The only people who wouldn't consider it news
> are those following this list, and judging by the state of this thread
> you'll already have read 40 posts on the topic, so the 41st won't be
> that big of a deal.

Long-time Gentoo users either 1) don't reinstall systems that often (why
would they?), or 2) know that things every once in a while change.

IMO, with 1) you'd expect that user to read the docs again when doing a
new install.  With 2) they already figured out when they did a new
install that /etc/make.conf was not there, however putting something in
a file out there did work as expected as well.

From a different angle, perhaps stage3s shouldn't include a default
/etc/make.conf at all.  Would solve this issue nicely, and doesn't
require a news item at all, IMO.

At the moment Portage refuses to read /etc/make.conf, a news item and
possibly even a block of Portage update until the file has been moved
would be in order.

-- 
Fabian Groffen
Gentoo on a different level

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Re: [gentoo-dev] news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Maxim Kammerer]

On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 2:06 PM, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto
<jmbsvicetto@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root   40 Jul 20 00:26 /etc/make.globals ->
>> ../usr/share/portage/config/make.globals
>
> This symlink is installed by Portage, so it's outside catalyst control.

Bug filed: https://bugs.gentoo.org/427862

-- 
Maxim Kammerer
Liberté Linux: http://dee.su/liberte

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Michael Mol]

On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 7:39 AM, Fabian Groffen <grobian@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On 24-07-2012 07:20:31 -0400, Rich Freeman wrote:
>> On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 7:07 AM, Fabian Groffen <grobian@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> > I don't know about general consensus.  In my opinion, it's plain spam to
>> > existing users.  (And that would IMO be the xth news item in a row to be
>> > spam.)
>>
>> Can't say I agree here.  Some news items have been more useful than
>> others, but I doubt the typical Gentoo user (who does not subscribe to
>> -dev) would think that many of the past messages have been spam.
>
> Ok.  This is subjective.
>
>> Long-time Gentoo users aren't going to notice in the handbook that the
>> location of /etc/make.conf has moved - I know that if I'm doing an
>> install I tend to use the handbook as a checklist but I skim through
>> it so fast that I doubt I'd notice a big change.  They're going to
>> appreciate a heads-up.  The only people who wouldn't consider it news
>> are those following this list, and judging by the state of this thread
>> you'll already have read 40 posts on the topic, so the 41st won't be
>> that big of a deal.
>
> Long-time Gentoo users either 1) don't reinstall systems that often (why
> would they?), or 2) know that things every once in a while change.
>
> IMO, with 1) you'd expect that user to read the docs again when doing a
> new install.  With 2) they already figured out when they did a new
> install that /etc/make.conf was not there, however putting something in
> a file out there did work as expected as well.

As a user who's done a lot of reinstalling this year, I can offer a
couple observations:

1) The handbook contains a barebones make.conf, just as it comes with
a number of other barebones configuration files. You probably don't
need to supply a make.conf file, since the barebones version is only a
few lines.
1a) I have to think that things like CHOST could be set somewhere
higher up, and only overridden in make.conf. Similarly, if there's a
round-robin DNS entry for GENTOO_MIRRORS, that could be defaulted,
too.

2) Once I got to the point where I was frequently reinstalling, I
started copying and tweaking make.conf files from working systems
rather than doing a full rebuild.

3) That news item about udev-181 and a unified /usr is still greeting
new users...and it's still claiming an unmask of 2012-03-19, which is
three months ago. It's quite confusing in that it claims an event is
going to occur, in the past, and it still hasn't occurred.

>
> From a different angle, perhaps stage3s shouldn't include a default
> /etc/make.conf at all.  Would solve this issue nicely, and doesn't
> require a news item at all, IMO.

From the perspective of a user who often deals with the install
process, and occasionally helps others with it, I think this is could
be very good.


-- 
:wq

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Fabian Groffen]

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On 24-07-2012 08:01:40 -0400, Michael Mol wrote:
> As a user who's done a lot of reinstalling this year, I can offer a
> couple observations:
> 
> 1) The handbook contains a barebones make.conf, just as it comes with
> a number of other barebones configuration files. You probably don't
> need to supply a make.conf file, since the barebones version is only a
> few lines.
> 1a) I have to think that things like CHOST could be set somewhere
> higher up, and only overridden in make.conf. Similarly, if there's a
> round-robin DNS entry for GENTOO_MIRRORS, that could be defaulted,
> too.

In Prefix, we just set CHOST in the profiles.

> 2) Once I got to the point where I was frequently reinstalling, I
> started copying and tweaking make.conf files from working systems
> rather than doing a full rebuild.
> 
> 3) That news item about udev-181 and a unified /usr is still greeting
> new users...and it's still claiming an unmask of 2012-03-19, which is
> three months ago. It's quite confusing in that it claims an event is
> going to occur, in the past, and it still hasn't occurred.

... and how about that --as-needed one? so annoying, it usually doesn't
even apply to the systems I'm installing on.

> > From a different angle, perhaps stage3s shouldn't include a default
> > /etc/make.conf at all.  Would solve this issue nicely, and doesn't
> > require a news item at all, IMO.
> 
> From the perspective of a user who often deals with the install
> process, and occasionally helps others with it, I think this is could
> be very good.

-- 
Fabian Groffen
Gentoo on a different level

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[William Kenworthy]

On Tue, 2012-07-24 at 07:20 -0400, Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 7:07 AM, Fabian Groffen <grobian@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > I don't know about general consensus.  In my opinion, it's plain spam to
> > existing users.  (And that would IMO be the xth news item in a row to be
> > spam.)
> 
> Can't say I agree here.  Some news items have been more useful than
> others, but I doubt the typical Gentoo user (who does not subscribe to
> -dev) would think that many of the past messages have been spam.
> 
> Right now news is our only mechanism to warn users that something is
> about to happen BEFORE it happens.  Anytime I talk to somebody who has
> left Gentoo the #1 thing I tend to hear is that they were tired of
> things just breaking without warning.  Even following -dev I've been
> surprised by the odd upgrade - I can imagine the typical user would be
> even more confused.
> 
> Long-time Gentoo users aren't going to notice in the handbook that the
> location of /etc/make.conf has moved - I know that if I'm doing an
> install I tend to use the handbook as a checklist but I skim through
> it so fast that I doubt I'd notice a big change.  They're going to
> appreciate a heads-up.  The only people who wouldn't consider it news
> are those following this list, and judging by the state of this thread
> you'll already have read 40 posts on the topic, so the 41st won't be
> that big of a deal.
> 
> Rich
> 

Apologies for butting in as a user:

As a user of Gentoo from about 2002 or so, with multiple gentoo systems,
this thread is the first I have heard of make.conf moving ... cant
imagine I am the only one!  and are you about to break our systems
unannounced (again) ? - its not spam to give us a heads up, even if its
just reassurance.

Sorry, but I would rather know.
BillK

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Fabian Groffen]

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On 24-07-2012 20:13:46 +0800, William Kenworthy wrote:
> Apologies for butting in as a user:
> 
> As a user of Gentoo from about 2002 or so, with multiple gentoo systems,
> this thread is the first I have heard of make.conf moving ... cant
> imagine I am the only one!  and are you about to break our systems
> unannounced (again) ? - its not spam to give us a heads up, even if its
> just reassurance.

I think you misunderstood.  Nothing is breaking at this time.  Hence I
don't think this is worth asking your attention for.


-- 
Fabian Groffen
Gentoo on a different level

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[gentoo-dev] Re: news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Duncan]

Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto posted on Tue, 24 Jul 2012 10:54:25 +0000 as
excerpted:

> Starting with catalyst 2.0.10, make.conf and make.profile will be moved
> from /etc to /etc/portage.

As with other app-focused news items, if it were a catalyst-user-focused 
change, you'd set the filter accordingly.  The fact that you're 
deliberately not doing so should correspondingly mean deliberately not 
mentioning catalyst either, as many in the target audience will have no 
clue what catalyst actually is. (For that matter, don't mention releng 
either.  Just stages, users know what STAGES are! =:^)


Users want to know what's changing (the location of make.conf, but ONLY 
in new stage tarballs), where it's changing to (/etc/portage/), when it's 
changing (don't say with whatever catalyst version, users don't care, say 
when, with stage snapshots built after July 30), and how it affects 
existing installations (existing users can continue using the old 
location for the foreseeable future, but can move it to the new location 
if necessary; if both locations exist, say which overrides).

Meanwhile, a general suggestion I've made for other news items as well.  
It doesn't yet really apply here, but could once the elsewhere suggested 
details of which one overrides if both are present, possible coverage of 
make.profile, etc, are covered:

News items are ideally short and to the point.  Think of the teaser 
paragraph under a newspaper headline or on many rss/atom feeds, directing 
you to the main article for more.  If they'd end up more than a paragragh 
including details, shorten it to a single descriptive paragraph and add a 
link to an article with the details.  That way you can keep the news item 
short and to the point, while properly covering the details without 
having to worry about space constraints, elsewhere.

(FWIW, between the thread title saying make.conf but the proposed news 
item focusing on catalyst, and the already fixed postfix flub, I was 
REALLY confused with the first version, and only with this version 
understand it even well enough to make this observation in the first 
place.  And unlike many gentoo users, I actually know what catalyst is!  
Unlike me, they won't have the postfix mistake thrown at them, but also 
unlike me, likely won't have a clue what catalyst is, so I'd guess the 
confusion level with the current wording would remain similar... so 
totally confused they have no idea what the news item is actually trying 
to say!)

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Ian Stakenvicius]

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On 23/07/12 09:58 PM, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:
> On 24-07-2012 01:33, Rich Freeman wrote:
>> On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 8:07 PM, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto 
>> <jmbsvicetto@gentoo.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I propose to commit this news item in 2 or 3 days. Does anyone 
>>> have any comments about it?
> 
>> What action if any do you want Gentoo users to take.  If I read 
>> that news item the first question I'd have is where SHOULD I
>> keep those files?  Should I leave them alone?  Should I move
>> them?  Will anything bad happen either way?
> 
>> If the answer is that we're changing the defaults but plan to 
>> support the old way for a very long time, then spell that out. 
>> Otherwise you'll get a million people asking about it.
> 
> This is just a heads-up for Gentoo users that got used to find 
> make.conf and make.profile under /etc in stages, that these files
> will stop being there and will instead be under /etc/portage. So we
> are changing the defaults.


Given that this just affects new installs, is a news item (via
portage) a particularly good way to inform everyone?  I was wondering
if it'd make more sense to notify on the website and *definitely*
change the Handbook...

..and maybe include an '/etc/make.conf.moved' in the stage files for
the next 6 months which says the above?

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Rich Freeman]

On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 8:09 AM, Fabian Groffen <grobian@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On 24-07-2012 08:01:40 -0400, Michael Mol wrote:
>> 3) That news item about udev-181 and a unified /usr is still greeting
>> new users...and it's still claiming an unmask of 2012-03-19, which is
>> three months ago. It's quite confusing in that it claims an event is
>> going to occur, in the past, and it still hasn't occurred.
>
> ... and how about that --as-needed one? so annoying, it usually doesn't
> even apply to the systems I'm installing on.

I'll agree that something needs to be done to clean up past news items
that are obsolete.  Can we go back and make them expire or just delete
them?  Yesterday's news isn't news.

I guess this is a matter of opinion, but on Gentoo I don't think we're
really at much risk of driving people away by OVER-communicating.  Our
users are used to things changing and a certain level of
fix-it-yourself, but if we know something is going to cause no end of
questions it only makes sense to throw the users a bone once in a
while.

Rich

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Ian Stakenvicius]

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On 24/07/12 07:39 AM, Fabian Groffen wrote:

> From a different angle, perhaps stage3s shouldn't include a
> default /etc/make.conf at all.  Would solve this issue nicely, and
> doesn't require a news item at all, IMO.
> 

Would that work?  We still need the CHOST set, don't we?
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Fabian Groffen]

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On 24-07-2012 09:24:03 -0400, Rich Freeman wrote:
> I guess this is a matter of opinion, but on Gentoo I don't think we're
> really at much risk of driving people away by OVER-communicating.  Our
> users are used to things changing and a certain level of
> fix-it-yourself, but if we know something is going to cause no end of
> questions it only makes sense to throw the users a bone once in a
> while.

The way in which news items aggressively request your attention, makes
them something that should only be used if it's obvious it's important
for the user (e.g. postfix thing for postfix users).
This particular change seems more something for -announce, note in the
handbook, and something like the suggestion of a file giving a nice
hint.

My impression is that the message is absolutely useless to the majority
of users on their *already installed* system, so don't make everyone
have to see the news item notice a couple of times and run `eselect news
read` just for this.


-- 
Fabian Groffen
Gentoo on a different level

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Fabian Groffen]

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On 24-07-2012 09:33:39 -0400, Ian Stakenvicius wrote:
> On 24/07/12 07:39 AM, Fabian Groffen wrote:
> 
> > From a different angle, perhaps stage3s shouldn't include a
> > default /etc/make.conf at all.  Would solve this issue nicely, and
> > doesn't require a news item at all, IMO.
> > 
> 
> Would that work?  We still need the CHOST set, don't we?

Yup, so it needs a bit more work.


-- 
Fabian Groffen
Gentoo on a different level

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Ulrich Mueller]

>>>>> On Tue, 24 Jul 2012, Rich Freeman wrote:

> I'll agree that something needs to be done to clean up past news items
> that are obsolete.  Can we go back and make them expire or just delete
> them?  Yesterday's news isn't news.

They can simply be removed from the repository. eselect news can
handle this since version 1.2.4 (released in 2009).

Ulrich

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Michael Mol]

On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 9:24 AM, Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 8:09 AM, Fabian Groffen <grobian@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> On 24-07-2012 08:01:40 -0400, Michael Mol wrote:
>>> 3) That news item about udev-181 and a unified /usr is still greeting
>>> new users...and it's still claiming an unmask of 2012-03-19, which is
>>> three months ago. It's quite confusing in that it claims an event is
>>> going to occur, in the past, and it still hasn't occurred.
>>
>> ... and how about that --as-needed one? so annoying, it usually doesn't
>> even apply to the systems I'm installing on.
>
> I'll agree that something needs to be done to clean up past news items
> that are obsolete.  Can we go back and make them expire or just delete
> them?  Yesterday's news isn't news.
>
> I guess this is a matter of opinion, but on Gentoo I don't think we're
> really at much risk of driving people away by OVER-communicating.  Our
> users are used to things changing and a certain level of
> fix-it-yourself, but if we know something is going to cause no end of
> questions it only makes sense to throw the users a bone once in a
> while.

I just want to point out that while established users are likely
accustomed to fixing things from time to time, having non-relevant or
counter-informative[1] communication in news items makes first-time
setups very difficult. Sometimes unavoidable, I'm sure, but I think
it's something that should be avoided if possible.

On the subject of things related to catalyst...I realized I don't even
know what that is, and will likely have some reading to do. My remarks
on the handbook's content about make.conf may or may not be relevant,
depending on if catalyst is a special case.

[1]  That udev-181 stabilization news item was warning of something
which _still_ hasn't come to pass, three months after the indicated
date.

-- 
:wq

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Michael Orlitzky]

On 07/24/12 09:21, Ian Stakenvicius wrote:
> 
> Given that this just affects new installs, is a news item (via
> portage) a particularly good way to inform everyone?  I was wondering
> if it'd make more sense to notify on the website and *definitely*
> change the Handbook...
> 
> ..and maybe include an '/etc/make.conf.moved' in the stage files for
> the next 6 months which says the above?

I think a news item is reasonable here (in addition to the above). Most
users don't know about the move from /etc/make.conf to
/etc/portage/make.conf. After this change, there will be a
gradually-increasing need to know that a switch took place.

 1) To a first approximation, nobody reads the documentation.

 2) /etc/portage/make.conf overrides the traditional location. If you
    have both, it will lead to subtle problems. After this change, new
    users won't even know that /etc/make.conf used to exist, so there's
    a possibility of two admins stepping on each others' feet.

 3) When providing help on forums and mailing lists, existing users
    will need to know that the location was switched.

 4) There are problems I haven't thought of. Better safe than sorry.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Fabian Groffen]

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On 24-07-2012 13:15:43 -0400, Michael Orlitzky wrote:
> I think a news item is reasonable here (in addition to the above).

[snip good arguments]

But that's a news item on (a version of) Portage, not on catalyst and
stage3 building.


-- 
Fabian Groffen
Gentoo on a different level

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Rick "Zero_Chaos" Farina]

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On 07/24/2012 09:33 AM, Fabian Groffen wrote:
> On 24-07-2012 09:24:03 -0400, Rich Freeman wrote:
>> I guess this is a matter of opinion, but on Gentoo I don't think we're
>> really at much risk of driving people away by OVER-communicating.  Our
>> users are used to things changing and a certain level of
>> fix-it-yourself, but if we know something is going to cause no end of
>> questions it only makes sense to throw the users a bone once in a
>> while.
> 
> The way in which news items aggressively request your attention, makes
> them something that should only be used if it's obvious it's important
> for the user (e.g. postfix thing for postfix users).
> This particular change seems more something for -announce, note in the
> handbook, and something like the suggestion of a file giving a nice
> hint.
> 
> My impression is that the message is absolutely useless to the majority
> of users on their *already installed* system, so don't make everyone
> have to see the news item notice a couple of times and run `eselect news
> read` just for this.
> 
> 
While I completely understand where Fabian is coming from on all this I
respectfully disagree.  Long term gentoo users do NOT read the handbook,
ever.  I still install new systems with odd hacks that I picked up when
gentoo was versioned 1.x and it pleases me, I don't care if those steps
are not in the docs anymore or discouraged or whatever.  I've not even
glanced at the handbook for years, yet I've installed gentoo on dozens
of systems since the last time I did.

This is a big enough change that it will throw users who do not know,
and my first impression of /etc/make.conf et all missing on a new stage
is "file a bug report for a broken stage and assign it to those morons
in releng".  (please note the comic exaggeration and not a disrespect).

This is a change that will break all new installs and expecting
experienced gentoo users to read the handbook is simply a fantasy.
Please, keep the news item.

Thanks,
Zero
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Fabian Groffen]

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On 24-07-2012 14:52:43 -0400, Rick "Zero_Chaos" Farina wrote:
> This is a change that will break all new installs and expecting
> experienced gentoo users to read the handbook is simply a fantasy.

I don't see how it breaks.  And secondly, if you do refuse to read the
manual, why don't you refuse to read elogs, news messages, and what
more?
Do we really have to babysit people, because they think they're too
smart to check on the manual once again?  Or when they notice things
seem different?  Any search engine is your friend.


-- 
Fabian Groffen
Gentoo on a different level

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Rich Freeman]

On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 2:59 PM, Fabian Groffen <grobian@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On 24-07-2012 14:52:43 -0400, Rick "Zero_Chaos" Farina wrote:
>> This is a change that will break all new installs and expecting
>> experienced gentoo users to read the handbook is simply a fantasy.
>
> I don't see how it breaks.  And secondly, if you do refuse to read the
> manual, why don't you refuse to read elogs, news messages, and what
> more?

The difference is that news only communicates what is "news."  Unless
the manual contains a revision history it contains everything you
already know, perhaps with a gem buried in there somewhere.

This is the same reason why when something is wrong with Chromium you
are supposed to post a 5-line patch to the bug and not a 300MB tarball
with the patch applied, though at least in that case modern tools
actually make finding the change fairly easy.

> Do we really have to babysit people, because they think they're too
> smart to check on the manual once again?  Or when they notice things
> seem different?  Any search engine is your friend.

There is the principle of not surprising people.  This is a big change
- a file central to the config of Gentoo that has been in one place
for more than a decade, and is now moving.  The change makes sense and
should be embraced, but there is no harm in pointing it out.

Sure, when my system breaks I'm pretty smart and can usually figure
out how to fix it.  That doesn't mean that I don't appreciate a
heads-up before it breaks.

Rich

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Michael Orlitzky]

On 07/24/12 14:52, Rick "Zero_Chaos" Farina wrote:
> 
> This is a big enough change that it will throw users who do not know,
> and my first impression of /etc/make.conf et all missing on a new stage
> is "file a bug report for a broken stage and assign it to those morons
> in releng".  (please note the comic exaggeration and not a disrespect).

And mine would be to assume that we stopped shipping make.conf, and just
fill in the missing details in /etc/make.conf before building the system.

Everything would look like it's working, but portage isn't using the
make.conf that I think it is.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Dale]

Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 7:07 AM, Fabian Groffen <grobian@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> I don't know about general consensus.  In my opinion, it's plain spam to
>> existing users.  (And that would IMO be the xth news item in a row to be
>> spam.)
> Can't say I agree here.  Some news items have been more useful than
> others, but I doubt the typical Gentoo user (who does not subscribe to
> -dev) would think that many of the past messages have been spam.
>
> << SNIP >>
>
> Rich
>
>

I agree with this.  I see messages that may not apply to me but I always
keep in mind that it may apply to a large number of other users.  I
would MUCH rather see a message sent out that doesn't apply to me than
to not see one that should have been sent out but wasn't. 

Just a users opinion and expectations. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Dale]

Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 2:59 PM, Fabian Groffen <grobian@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> On 24-07-2012 14:52:43 -0400, Rick "Zero_Chaos" Farina wrote:
>>> This is a change that will break all new installs and expecting
>>> experienced gentoo users to read the handbook is simply a fantasy.
>> I don't see how it breaks.  And secondly, if you do refuse to read the
>> manual, why don't you refuse to read elogs, news messages, and what
>> more?
> The difference is that news only communicates what is "news."  Unless
> the manual contains a revision history it contains everything you
> already know, perhaps with a gem buried in there somewhere.
>
> This is the same reason why when something is wrong with Chromium you
> are supposed to post a 5-line patch to the bug and not a 300MB tarball
> with the patch applied, though at least in that case modern tools
> actually make finding the change fairly easy.
>
>> Do we really have to babysit people, because they think they're too
>> smart to check on the manual once again?  Or when they notice things
>> seem different?  Any search engine is your friend.
> There is the principle of not surprising people.  This is a big change
> - a file central to the config of Gentoo that has been in one place
> for more than a decade, and is now moving.  The change makes sense and
> should be embraced, but there is no harm in pointing it out.
>
> Sure, when my system breaks I'm pretty smart and can usually figure
> out how to fix it.  That doesn't mean that I don't appreciate a
> heads-up before it breaks.
>
> Rich
>
>


+1

I might also add, I printed the manual years ago.  I rarely look at the
online version. 

User opinion.  Back to eating my apple pie. 

Dale

:-)  :-) 

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or how you interpreted my words!

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Michael Mol]

On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 4:12 PM, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> Rich Freeman wrote:
>> On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 2:59 PM, Fabian Groffen <grobian@gentoo.org> wrote:
>>> On 24-07-2012 14:52:43 -0400, Rick "Zero_Chaos" Farina wrote:
>>>> This is a change that will break all new installs and expecting
>>>> experienced gentoo users to read the handbook is simply a fantasy.
>>> I don't see how it breaks.  And secondly, if you do refuse to read the
>>> manual, why don't you refuse to read elogs, news messages, and what
>>> more?
>> The difference is that news only communicates what is "news."  Unless
>> the manual contains a revision history it contains everything you
>> already know, perhaps with a gem buried in there somewhere.
>>
>> This is the same reason why when something is wrong with Chromium you
>> are supposed to post a 5-line patch to the bug and not a 300MB tarball
>> with the patch applied, though at least in that case modern tools
>> actually make finding the change fairly easy.
>>
>>> Do we really have to babysit people, because they think they're too
>>> smart to check on the manual once again?  Or when they notice things
>>> seem different?  Any search engine is your friend.
>> There is the principle of not surprising people.  This is a big change
>> - a file central to the config of Gentoo that has been in one place
>> for more than a decade, and is now moving.  The change makes sense and
>> should be embraced, but there is no harm in pointing it out.
>>
>> Sure, when my system breaks I'm pretty smart and can usually figure
>> out how to fix it.  That doesn't mean that I don't appreciate a
>> heads-up before it breaks.

[snip]

> +1
>
> I might also add, I printed the manual years ago.  I rarely look at the
> online version.
>
> User opinion.  Back to eating my apple pie.

Another user opinion...it would be a significant improvement to the
stage images and live discs to include the latest copy of the
handbook, so that a network connection isn't required to access it.
But that's probably a subject for a different thread. And I think
that's at least three topics, now, this thread has touched on.

-- 
:wq

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Ian Stakenvicius]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

On 24/07/12 02:52 PM, Rick "Zero_Chaos" Farina wrote:
> On 07/24/2012 09:33 AM, Fabian Groffen wrote:
>> On 24-07-2012 09:24:03 -0400, Rich Freeman wrote:
>>> I guess this is a matter of opinion, but on Gentoo I don't
>>> think we're really at much risk of driving people away by
>>> OVER-communicating.  Our users are used to things changing and
>>> a certain level of fix-it-yourself, but if we know something is
>>> going to cause no end of questions it only makes sense to throw
>>> the users a bone once in a while.
> 
>> The way in which news items aggressively request your attention,
>> makes them something that should only be used if it's obvious
>> it's important for the user (e.g. postfix thing for postfix
>> users). This particular change seems more something for
>> -announce, note in the handbook, and something like the
>> suggestion of a file giving a nice hint.
> 
>> My impression is that the message is absolutely useless to the
>> majority of users on their *already installed* system, so don't
>> make everyone have to see the news item notice a couple of times
>> and run `eselect news read` just for this.
> 
> 
> While I completely understand where Fabian is coming from on all
> this I respectfully disagree.  Long term gentoo users do NOT read
> the handbook, ever.  I still install new systems with odd hacks
> that I picked up when gentoo was versioned 1.x and it pleases me, I
> don't care if those steps are not in the docs anymore or
> discouraged or whatever.  I've not even glanced at the handbook for
> years, yet I've installed gentoo on dozens of systems since the
> last time I did.

Right, but would a news item now (regarding Catalyst) for something
you do next month be particularily helpful, compared to a
'make.conf.moved' reminder file in /etc ?  Or maybe a make.conf
synlink to profiles/make.conf ?  Or something else within the stage
itself that makes it obvious that it's changed?

The main issue I see with this is that the news item isn't relevant to
what people have emerged or will emerge (except for the small
percentage that use catalyst, of course); and I expect that this will
cause more confusion and grief to the user base than help (even if the
news items says in big capital letters that nothing needs to change on
their current install)


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[W. Trevor King]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 845 bytes --]

On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 03:33:03PM -0400, Rich Freeman wrote:
> The difference is that news only communicates what is "news."  Unless
> the manual contains a revision history it contains everything you
> already know, perhaps with a gem buried in there somewhere.
> 
> This is the same reason why when something is wrong with Chromium you
> are supposed to post a 5-line patch to the bug and not a 300MB tarball
> with the patch applied, though at least in that case modern tools
> actually make finding the change fairly easy.

Hmm, are the manuals versioned with a public interface (git clone
…/handbook.git)?  That would make finding new gems in the manual much
easier.

-- 
This email may be signed or encrypted with GnuPG (http://www.gnupg.org).
For more information, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pretty_Good_Privacy

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Michael Mol]

On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 4:24 PM, Ian Stakenvicius <axs@gentoo.org> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA256
>
> On 24/07/12 02:52 PM, Rick "Zero_Chaos" Farina wrote:
>> On 07/24/2012 09:33 AM, Fabian Groffen wrote:
>>> On 24-07-2012 09:24:03 -0400, Rich Freeman wrote:
>>>> I guess this is a matter of opinion, but on Gentoo I don't
>>>> think we're really at much risk of driving people away by
>>>> OVER-communicating.  Our users are used to things changing and
>>>> a certain level of fix-it-yourself, but if we know something is
>>>> going to cause no end of questions it only makes sense to throw
>>>> the users a bone once in a while.
>>
>>> The way in which news items aggressively request your attention,
>>> makes them something that should only be used if it's obvious
>>> it's important for the user (e.g. postfix thing for postfix
>>> users). This particular change seems more something for
>>> -announce, note in the handbook, and something like the
>>> suggestion of a file giving a nice hint.
>>
>>> My impression is that the message is absolutely useless to the
>>> majority of users on their *already installed* system, so don't
>>> make everyone have to see the news item notice a couple of times
>>> and run `eselect news read` just for this.
>>
>>
>> While I completely understand where Fabian is coming from on all
>> this I respectfully disagree.  Long term gentoo users do NOT read
>> the handbook, ever.  I still install new systems with odd hacks
>> that I picked up when gentoo was versioned 1.x and it pleases me, I
>> don't care if those steps are not in the docs anymore or
>> discouraged or whatever.  I've not even glanced at the handbook for
>> years, yet I've installed gentoo on dozens of systems since the
>> last time I did.
>
> Right, but would a news item now (regarding Catalyst) for something
> you do next month be particularily helpful, compared to a
> 'make.conf.moved' reminder file in /etc ?  Or maybe a make.conf
> synlink to profiles/make.conf ?  Or something else within the stage
> itself that makes it obvious that it's changed?

I've often seen cases like these handled by keeping a referenced file
where it's traditionally expected to be found, but leaving a comment
in that file explaining that the content of that file had been moved
to a new location, and the old location is deprecated.

Would that work for a circumstance like this?

-- 
:wq

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Brian Harring]

On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 04:32:00PM -0400, Michael Mol wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 4:24 PM, Ian Stakenvicius <axs@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA256
> >
> > On 24/07/12 02:52 PM, Rick "Zero_Chaos" Farina wrote:
> >> On 07/24/2012 09:33 AM, Fabian Groffen wrote:
> >>> On 24-07-2012 09:24:03 -0400, Rich Freeman wrote:
> >>>> I guess this is a matter of opinion, but on Gentoo I don't
> >>>> think we're really at much risk of driving people away by
> >>>> OVER-communicating.  Our users are used to things changing and
> >>>> a certain level of fix-it-yourself, but if we know something is
> >>>> going to cause no end of questions it only makes sense to throw
> >>>> the users a bone once in a while.
> >>
> >>> The way in which news items aggressively request your attention,
> >>> makes them something that should only be used if it's obvious
> >>> it's important for the user (e.g. postfix thing for postfix
> >>> users). This particular change seems more something for
> >>> -announce, note in the handbook, and something like the
> >>> suggestion of a file giving a nice hint.
> >>
> >>> My impression is that the message is absolutely useless to the
> >>> majority of users on their *already installed* system, so don't
> >>> make everyone have to see the news item notice a couple of times
> >>> and run `eselect news read` just for this.
> >>
> >>
> >> While I completely understand where Fabian is coming from on all
> >> this I respectfully disagree.  Long term gentoo users do NOT read
> >> the handbook, ever.  I still install new systems with odd hacks
> >> that I picked up when gentoo was versioned 1.x and it pleases me, I
> >> don't care if those steps are not in the docs anymore or
> >> discouraged or whatever.  I've not even glanced at the handbook for
> >> years, yet I've installed gentoo on dozens of systems since the
> >> last time I did.
> >
> > Right, but would a news item now (regarding Catalyst) for something
> > you do next month be particularily helpful, compared to a
> > 'make.conf.moved' reminder file in /etc ?  Or maybe a make.conf
> > synlink to profiles/make.conf ?  Or something else within the stage
> > itself that makes it obvious that it's changed?
> 
> I've often seen cases like these handled by keeping a referenced file
> where it's traditionally expected to be found, but leaving a comment
> in that file explaining that the content of that file had been moved
> to a new location, and the old location is deprecated.
> 
> Would that work for a circumstance like this?

Not really, no- it would mean the PM would have to parse/merge both 
locations, rather than just looking for the file in one of two spots.

~brian

Re: [gentoo-dev] news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Walter Dnes]

On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 11:42:31AM +0200, Ralph Sennhauser wrote

> man 5 portage about files in /etc/portage
> 
>   make.conf
>      The global custom settings for Portage. See make.conf(5). If
>      present, this file will over??? ride settings from /etc/make.conf.
> 
> 
> > 3. This news item is really useful, since the change has a potential
> > to break automated builds.
> 
> We aren't discussing dropping support for the old locations here but
> about makeing the new location the default.

  This has the potential to cause problems for people who do things "the
old way", and find that their settings in /etc/make.conf are not being
applied.  Instead of a news item, maybe we should be looking at warnings
and/or errors in "emerge"...

1) If there is a /etc/make.conf, but no /etc/portage/make.conf, emerge
should generate an ewarn message.  Is emerge smart enough to generate
only one ewarn even though it's emerging umpteen packages?

2) If there is a /etc/make.conf *AND* a /etc/portage/make.conf, emerge
should halt immediately with an error message.  If a user has made a
/etc/make.conf, they will probably expect it to take effect, which is
not what's going to happen.  This will save the user forums from being
hit with the same question over and over about settings in /etc/make.conf
being ignored.

3) When support for /etc/make.conf is finally dropped, the presence of
/etc/make.conf should make emerge halt immediately with an error message.

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Ben de Groot]

On 25 July 2012 02:52, Rick "Zero_Chaos" Farina <zerochaos@gentoo.org> wrote:
> While I completely understand where Fabian is coming from on all this I
> respectfully disagree.  Long term gentoo users do NOT read the handbook,
> ever.  I still install new systems with odd hacks that I picked up when
> gentoo was versioned 1.x and it pleases me, I don't care if those steps
> are not in the docs anymore or discouraged or whatever.  I've not even
> glanced at the handbook for years, yet I've installed gentoo on dozens
> of systems since the last time I did.
>
> This is a big enough change that it will throw users who do not know,
> and my first impression of /etc/make.conf et all missing on a new stage
> is "file a bug report for a broken stage and assign it to those morons
> in releng".  (please note the comic exaggeration and not a disrespect).
>
> This is a change that will break all new installs and expecting
> experienced gentoo users to read the handbook is simply a fantasy.
> Please, keep the news item.

+1

This is an important enough change to inform users about.

-- 
Cheers,

Ben | yngwin
Gentoo developer
Gentoo Qt project lead, Gentoo Wiki admin

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Sven Vermeulen]

On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 01:15:43PM -0400, Michael Orlitzky wrote:
> I think a news item is reasonable here (in addition to the above). Most
> users don't know about the move from /etc/make.conf to
> /etc/portage/make.conf. After this change, there will be a
> gradually-increasing need to know that a switch took place.
> 
>  1) To a first approximation, nobody reads the documentation.

There sure are a lot of nobody's then...

Wkr,
	Sven Vermeulen

[gentoo-dev] Re: news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Duncan]

Sven Vermeulen posted on Wed, 25 Jul 2012 08:05:02 +0000 as excerpted:

> On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 01:15:43PM -0400, Michael Orlitzky wrote:
>> I think a news item is reasonable here (in addition to the above). Most
>> users don't know about the move from /etc/make.conf to
>> /etc/portage/make.conf. After this change, there will be a
>> gradually-increasing need to know that a switch took place.
>> 
>>  1) To a first approximation, nobody reads the documentation.
> 
> There sure are a lot of nobody's then...

Indeed.  And thanks again SV, for your personal attention to a lot of 
that documentation... that "nobody" reads!  I guess I'm "nobody", then, 
so you can now say "nobody" thanks you, too!

=:^)

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

Re: [gentoo-dev] news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Stelian Ionescu]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1982 bytes --]

On Tue, 2012-07-24 at 20:55 -0400, Walter Dnes wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 11:42:31AM +0200, Ralph Sennhauser wrote
> 
> > man 5 portage about files in /etc/portage
> > 
> >   make.conf
> >      The global custom settings for Portage. See make.conf(5). If
> >      present, this file will over??? ride settings from /etc/make.conf.
> > 
> > 
> > > 3. This news item is really useful, since the change has a potential
> > > to break automated builds.
> > 
> > We aren't discussing dropping support for the old locations here but
> > about makeing the new location the default.
> 
>   This has the potential to cause problems for people who do things "the
> old way", and find that their settings in /etc/make.conf are not being
> applied.  Instead of a news item, maybe we should be looking at warnings
> and/or errors in "emerge"...
> 
> 1) If there is a /etc/make.conf, but no /etc/portage/make.conf, emerge
> should generate an ewarn message.  Is emerge smart enough to generate
> only one ewarn even though it's emerging umpteen packages?
> 
> 2) If there is a /etc/make.conf *AND* a /etc/portage/make.conf, emerge
> should halt immediately with an error message.  If a user has made a
> /etc/make.conf, they will probably expect it to take effect, which is
> not what's going to happen.  This will save the user forums from being
> hit with the same question over and over about settings in /etc/make.conf
> being ignored.

I'd go for a little more sophistication: it should exit with an error
if /etc/make.conf is present and is not a symlink
to /etc/portage/make.conf, because until all tools support the new
location such a symlink might be necessary

> 3) When support for /etc/make.conf is finally dropped, the presence of
> /etc/make.conf should make emerge halt immediately with an error message.

1+

-- 
Stelian Ionescu a.k.a. fe[nl]ix
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
http://common-lisp.net/project/iolib


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Aaron W. Swenson]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

On 07/24/2012 04:30 PM, W. Trevor King wrote:
> Hmm, are the manuals versioned with a public interface (git clone 
> …/handbook.git)?  That would make finding new gems in the manual
> much easier.
> 

Yes, yes they are.

http://sources.gentoo.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/gentoo/xml/htdocs/doc/

- -- 
Mr. Aaron W. Swenson
Gentoo Linux Developer
Email    : titanofold@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP : 2C00 7719 4F85 FB07 A49C  0E31 5713 AA03 D1BB FDA0
GnuPG ID : D1BBFDA0


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Aaron W. Swenson]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

On 07/24/2012 04:19 PM, Michael Mol wrote:
> Another user opinion...it would be a significant improvement to
> the stage images and live discs to include the latest copy of the 
> handbook, so that a network connection isn't required to access
> it. But that's probably a subject for a different thread. And I
> think that's at least three topics, now, this thread has touched
> on.
> 

The handbook has always been included. There may be a discrepancy
between the online version and the version included with the disc, but
that's because the online version is always current where the stages
can be a week or so behind.

- -- 
Mr. Aaron W. Swenson
Gentoo Linux Developer
Email    : titanofold@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP : 2C00 7719 4F85 FB07 A49C  0E31 5713 AA03 D1BB FDA0
GnuPG ID : D1BBFDA0


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Michael Mol]

On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 9:25 AM, Aaron W. Swenson <titanofold@gentoo.org> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA256
>
> On 07/24/2012 04:19 PM, Michael Mol wrote:
>> Another user opinion...it would be a significant improvement to
>> the stage images and live discs to include the latest copy of the
>> handbook, so that a network connection isn't required to access
>> it. But that's probably a subject for a different thread. And I
>> think that's at least three topics, now, this thread has touched
>> on.
>>
>
> The handbook has always been included. There may be a discrepancy
> between the online version and the version included with the disc, but
> that's because the online version is always current where the stages
> can be a week or so behind.

I've never spotted it. Good to know. :)

-- 
:wq

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Ian Stakenvicius]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

On 24/07/12 05:13 PM, Brian Harring wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 04:32:00PM -0400, Michael Mol wrote:
>> 
>> I've often seen cases like these handled by keeping a referenced
>> file where it's traditionally expected to be found, but leaving a
>> comment in that file explaining that the content of that file had
>> been moved to a new location, and the old location is
>> deprecated.
>> 
>> Would that work for a circumstance like this?
> 
> Not really, no- it would mean the PM would have to parse/merge both
>  locations, rather than just looking for the file in one of two
> spots.
> 
> ~brian
> 

...if the file was empty except for comments saying where the new
location is, there would be nothing to parse.



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Re: [gentoo-dev] news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Ian Stakenvicius]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

On 24/07/12 08:55 PM, Walter Dnes wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 11:42:31AM +0200, Ralph Sennhauser wrote
> 
>> man 5 portage about files in /etc/portage
>> 
>> make.conf The global custom settings for Portage. See
>> make.conf(5). If present, this file will over??? ride settings
>> from /etc/make.conf.
>> 
>> 
>>> 3. This news item is really useful, since the change has a
>>> potential to break automated builds.
>> 
>> We aren't discussing dropping support for the old locations here
>> but about makeing the new location the default.
> 
> This has the potential to cause problems for people who do things
> "the old way", and find that their settings in /etc/make.conf are
> not being applied.  Instead of a news item, maybe we should be
> looking at warnings and/or errors in "emerge"...
> 
> 1) If there is a /etc/make.conf, but no /etc/portage/make.conf,
> emerge should generate an ewarn message.  Is emerge smart enough to
> generate only one ewarn even though it's emerging umpteen
> packages?

I'm not sure that this one is particularly necessary, as the default
location is not changing according to the package managers.  It's only
changing according to the stage files that ppl use to install.

Once the package managers roll out -expecting- that make.conf should
be in /etc/portage/make.conf rather than /etc/make.conf, then yes this
should absolutely occur.  Right now (and reportedly for the forseeable
future) that is not the case.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 25-07-2012 13:29, Michael Mol wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 9:25 AM, Aaron W. Swenson 
> <titanofold@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256
>> 
>> On 07/24/2012 04:19 PM, Michael Mol wrote:
>>> Another user opinion...it would be a significant improvement to
>>> the stage images and live discs to include the latest copy of
>>> the handbook, so that a network connection isn't required to 
>>> access it. But that's probably a subject for a different 
>>> thread. And I think that's at least three topics, now, this 
>>> thread has touched on.
>>> 
>> 
>> The handbook has always been included. There may be a discrepancy
>> between the online version and the version included with the
>> disc, but that's because the online version is always current
>> where the stages can be a week or so behind.
> 
> I've never spotted it. Good to know. :)

AFAIK, the install-cd never provided the handbook. It used to be
manually added to the live-cd.
About adding it to the minimal-cd, we don't want to add manual steps
to the automated weekly builds for an installation process that
already requires network access - the GRP CD stopped being built a
long time ago.

- -- 
Regards,

Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org
Gentoo- forums / Userrel / Devrel / KDE / Elections / RelEng


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Michael Mol]

On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 10:27 AM, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto
<jmbsvicetto@gentoo.org> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On 25-07-2012 13:29, Michael Mol wrote:
>> On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 9:25 AM, Aaron W. Swenson
>> <titanofold@gentoo.org> wrote:
>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256
>>>
>>> On 07/24/2012 04:19 PM, Michael Mol wrote:
>>>> Another user opinion...it would be a significant improvement to
>>>> the stage images and live discs to include the latest copy of
>>>> the handbook, so that a network connection isn't required to
>>>> access it. But that's probably a subject for a different
>>>> thread. And I think that's at least three topics, now, this
>>>> thread has touched on.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The handbook has always been included. There may be a discrepancy
>>> between the online version and the version included with the
>>> disc, but that's because the online version is always current
>>> where the stages can be a week or so behind.
>>
>> I've never spotted it. Good to know. :)
>
> AFAIK, the install-cd never provided the handbook. It used to be
> manually added to the live-cd.
> About adding it to the minimal-cd, we don't want to add manual steps
> to the automated weekly builds for an installation process that
> already requires network access - the GRP CD stopped being built a
> long time ago.

Any objection to the handbook (or even gentoo docs as a whole) being
in portage? 'emerge --searchdesc' doesn't turn it up, and I don't see
it under app-doc/, so I don't think it's there.

The problem I've tended to face is that on any install I do on new
hardware, it's hit or miss whether or not the network will work after
I reboot and work entirely within my installed environment. This is
largely because I don't know which kernel options I need to leave
enabled. That window inevitably requires me to have a separate machine
with network access in order to walk any deeper through the handbook.

-- 
:wq

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: news item: changes to stages (make.conf and make.profile)

[Aaron W. Swenson]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

On 07/25/2012 10:27 AM, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:
> On 25-07-2012 13:29, Michael Mol wrote:
>> On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 9:25 AM, Aaron W. Swenson 
>> <titanofold@gentoo.org> wrote:
>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256
>>> 
>>> On 07/24/2012 04:19 PM, Michael Mol wrote:
>>>> Another user opinion...it would be a significant improvement
>>>> to the stage images and live discs to include the latest copy
>>>> of the handbook, so that a network connection isn't required
>>>> to access it. But that's probably a subject for a different 
>>>> thread. And I think that's at least three topics, now, this 
>>>> thread has touched on.
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> The handbook has always been included. There may be a
>>> discrepancy between the online version and the version included
>>> with the disc, but that's because the online version is always
>>> current where the stages can be a week or so behind.
> 
>> I've never spotted it. Good to know. :)
> 
> AFAIK, the install-cd never provided the handbook. It used to be 
> manually added to the live-cd. About adding it to the minimal-cd,
> we don't want to add manual steps to the automated weekly builds
> for an installation process that already requires network access -
> the GRP CD stopped being built a long time ago.
> 
> 

Hm, I thought it was. I always use the online version now, but
remember using the one on the disc.

I'm sure we could automate the inclusion of the Handbook as well.

- -- 
Mr. Aaron W. Swenson
Gentoo Linux Developer
Email    : titanofold@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP : 2C00 7719 4F85 FB07 A49C  0E31 5713 AA03 D1BB FDA0
GnuPG ID : D1BBFDA0


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