From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org ([208.92.234.80] helo=lists.gentoo.org) by finch.gentoo.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1RPcrh-0001IJ-SU for garchives@archives.gentoo.org; Sun, 13 Nov 2011 16:25:06 +0000 Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 33FA821C0E5; Sun, 13 Nov 2011 16:24:57 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.gentoo.org (smtp.gentoo.org [140.211.166.183]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3F9821C041 for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2011 16:24:29 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DC531B4024 for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2011 16:24:29 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new using ClamAV at gentoo.org X-Spam-Score: -3.782 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.782 required=5.5 tests=[AWL=0.922, BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.504] Received: from smtp.gentoo.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.gentoo.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YRSNQI+GeHP2 for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2011 16:24:23 +0000 (UTC) Received: from lo.gmane.org (lo.gmane.org [80.91.229.12]) by smtp.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBE821B400D for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2011 16:24:20 +0000 (UTC) Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RPcqv-0005Eu-LL for gentoo-dev@gentoo.org; Sun, 13 Nov 2011 17:24:17 +0100 Received: from ip68-231-22-224.ph.ph.cox.net ([68.231.22.224]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2011 17:24:17 +0100 Received: from 1i5t5.duncan by ip68-231-22-224.ph.ph.cox.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2011 17:24:17 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org From: Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net> Subject: [gentoo-dev] Re: have portage be quiet by default Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 16:24:06 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <4EB4FA98.3080201@gentoo.org> <4EBD42EE.4060104@gentoo.org> <4EBEF208.5060500@gentoo.org> <201111121840.16686.vapier@gentoo.org> <4EBFBA75.3030500@gentoo.org> <1321188262-sup-4513@raeviah> Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: ip68-231-22-224.ph.ph.cox.net User-Agent: Pan/0.135 (Tomorrow I'll Wake Up and Scald Myself with Tea; GIT bb16cbd /st/portage/src/egit-src/pan2) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Archives-Salt: cfb12a56-3fb4-48c3-ad52-71f5b5200e60 X-Archives-Hash: e26e58b6b1f8527d941e8ca830a0197a Amadeusz =C5=BBo=C5=82nowski posted on Sun, 13 Nov 2011 14:04:49 +0100 as= excerpted: > Excerpts from Thomas Sachau's message of 2011-11-13 13:39:17 +0100: >> This can be argued from either side, if the default is verbose, you ca= n >> make it quiet in the default emerge opts and the other way round. So >> this is no argument for or against default quiet build in my eyes. >=20 > Not every user studies manpages of every program they use. Making > --quiet-build=3Dy default is a *benefit* for people who don't care much= . > If somebody cares about the output probably will care to read the > manpage how to make it verbose. How many emerge users know that option= ? Surely this is to a large degree bikeshedding. Whatever the default is,=20 the user can change it as desired, and if a Gentoo user isn't comfortable= =20 with that, they *REALLY* need to question whether they've made the best=20 choice possible choosing Gentoo, based on their needs and goals. Similarly, someone mentioned how time consuming it could be to change the= =20 option in a high-unit-number installation, but I'd suggest that if such=20 is the case, the person doing it really needs to rethink their approach=20 in the first place, and if this is what finally triggers that, well... >> As already said, it is nice to see, where a build hangs, when some >> specific task does take longer and until now, it was easy to see, just >> watch the output. With the new default, you cannot say, what it does, >> where it may be or if there are many things or just one line taking >> much time. And you additionally have to go to the build.log manually t= o >> actually see something. >=20 > Build output tells almost nothing about the progress (except of cmake). > But --quiet-build=3Dy actually gives more useful and handy info: what i= s a > total progress. >> In addition, it is also nice to just a quick look into the console to >> see, what and where it failed. >=20 > When it fails, it prints tail of build.log. While I already stated that I believe this to be bikeshedding, here's my=20 take, hinted at earlier. The previous defaults made perfect sense to me already. Parallel emerge=20 jobs already puts portage in quiet mode, and that's what most people who=20 care (see my point above about whether this is the right distro choice or= =20 not) should already be using. That default makes sense, since otherwise=20 the output would be jumbled anyway. 1-at-a-time merge defaults are therefore where the question is. Two=20 positions could be taken here. If it is argued that those who care will=20 already be using parallel mode in most cases, and that those who care but= =20 that can't be bothered to switch their defaults really should be=20 questioning whether gentoo is an appropriate choice in the first place,=20 then a "noisy" default for 1-at-a-time makes sense too, because the only=20 time most (who care) will see it is when they're actually troubleshooting= =20 something and thus deliberately using 1-at-a-time mode, in which case the= =20 higher level of detail by default for that mode makes the the most sense. OTOH, it could equally be argued that quiet mode /does/ speed things up=20 slightly and/or lessen CPU requirements for output scrolling, so that=20 mode should be the default, because again, those who care can always=20 change it anyway, and the Gentoo presumption should be that they will. But because I /do/ believe it's bikeshedding, since it's easily=20 configurable in any case and the gentoo assumption must be that we expect= =20 people to configure it if desired, or indeed, what's the whole point of=20 running gentoo anyway, my personal preference is to revert to the way=20 things were, quiet parallel emerge jobs, "noisy" 1-at-a-time, just=20 because I'm selfish and that happens to be what'll require no changes on=20 my part, since it's the previous and thus already assumed behavior built=20 into my scripts. But since the change is already made and changing the assumption of my=20 scripts is as trivial as it is, no skin off my nose if Zach simply sticks= =20 with the change already made. Bikeshed away! =3D:^) --=20 Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs. "Every nonfree program has a lord, a master -- and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman