From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org ([208.92.234.80] helo=lists.gentoo.org) by finch.gentoo.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1NydsR-0000iG-6H for garchives@archives.gentoo.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 04:25:31 +0000 Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AF809E09FA; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 04:25:22 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.gentoo.org (smtp.gentoo.org [140.211.166.183]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29D3DE09CE for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 04:25:01 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C280F1B406C for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 04:25:00 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at gentoo.org X-Spam-Score: -1.625 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.625 required=5.5 tests=[AWL=-0.885, BAYES_20=-0.74] Received: from smtp.gentoo.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.gentoo.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TPjXxDWor9eV for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 04:24:53 +0000 (UTC) Received: from lo.gmane.org (lo.gmane.org [80.91.229.12]) by smtp.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EB881B4007 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 04:24:52 +0000 (UTC) Received: from list by lo.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Nydri-0006Xg-Vy for gentoo-dev@gentoo.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 06:24:46 +0200 Received: from ip68-231-22-224.ph.ph.cox.net ([68.231.22.224]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 06:24:46 +0200 Received: from 1i5t5.duncan by ip68-231-22-224.ph.ph.cox.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 06:24:46 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org From: Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net> Subject: [gentoo-dev] Re: Is Gentoo a Phoenix? Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 04:24:34 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <1270286192.18734.3.camel@homer.ob.libexec.de> <4BB70E5C.8040405@gentoo.org> <1270289959.18734.19.camel@homer.ob.libexec.de> <4BB727A1.4000402@gentoo.org> <20100404201903.GA2156@Caemlyn.Fullrate> Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: ip68-231-22-224.ph.ph.cox.net User-Agent: Pan/0.133 (House of Butterflies) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Archives-Salt: a136a9ee-9226-4546-8291-a7429ff35fe4 X-Archives-Hash: 03ce2bb6cf0371b7e36b9ffa826e3172 Zeerak Mustafa Waseem posted on Sun, 04 Apr 2010 22:19:06 +0200 as excerpted: > esOn Sat, Apr 03, 2010 at 07:33:53AM -0400, Richard Freeman wrote: >> I really think that the Gentoo recruitment process needs improvement. >> Right now it seems like a LOT of effort is required both to become a >> Gentoo dev and to help somebody become a Gentoo dev. That means we >> have great people, but not many of them. I like that last sentence summation. It's perhaps optimistic, but does=20 bring into sharp focus both a positive and a negative of the current=20 process. >> I think the problem is that our recruitment process uses the ability t= o >> answer complex technical and organizational questions as a way to >> assess maturity. I think that maturity is far more important than >> technical skill in a distro - a mature person will recognize their own >> limitations and exercise due diligence when stepping outside of them.=20 >> Instead of playing 20 questions and going back and forth with recruits= , >> maybe a better approach would be to cut down the questions dramaticall= y >> (or more clearly put their answers in the documentation), and then use >> other approaches like references and interviews. A new recruit might >> be given the names of 5 devs that they will need to interview with for >> 30-60 minutes by phone or IRC (preference on phone), and they will nee= d >> to submit references, who will be contacted. When we hire people at >> work we don't play trivial pursuit with them, we use an interview to >> get a feel for what they're like and how they handle situations, and w= e >> screen resumes and references to determine experience. I'm sure any o= f >> the professional linux distros would work in the same way, but perhaps >> somebody should ask around and see how it is done elsewhere. >>=20 >>=20 > I'm not exactly sure how you'd want the references to work, I mean, as > in prior jobs/projects worked on? I know that I'd like to help out with > development, but as it stands I don't think I have the necessary skills > (various programming language etc), so that is something I'm working on= . I expect rich0 had in mind (tho I won't claim to speak for him) something= =20 a bit broader when referring to references. Certainly, in the FLOSS worl= d=20 many people are self-taught to some degree or another, and many are=20 volunteers, so references in the traditional job sense may not be=20 available. But in the FLOSS world, the term is indeed often used in a broader sense.= =20 For instance, if I were to "apply", I'd list my long-time involvement on=20 the pan (Internet news client) lists, where my involvement hasn't been as= =20 much in the technical sense but in helping out users, and ideally, in=20 being an interface between users and devs such that devs need spend less=20 time helping users and can spend more time developing. =3D:^) In Gentoo, not only my record of involvement on the amd64 list and here=20 (I've followed the dev list, as much to get a heads-up on what's coming=20 before it hits as anything else, since 2004.0, before I even had Gentoo=20 successfully installed, as that wasn't until 2004.1), but on bugs.gentoo. Even if those aren't particularly technical references, they absolutely=20 demonstrate consistency and integrity in community contribution. Those=20 references demonstrate integrity, in terms both of length of commitment,=20 and security-wise. If I'm a bad guy, I must be a pretty **** patient one= !=20 =3D:^) Others won't have that length of service to point to, but they have an IR= C=20 handle that has come to be identified with cooperativeness and willingnes= s=20 to help and to learn. Bugday participation is a very solid reference, as= =20 is work on one of the overlays with reasonably heavy community=20 involvement, be it a specialized one like the java or kde overlays, or a=20 couple of ebuilds on sunrise. There's also the forums, with their very=20 direct and practical mechanism for recognizing frequent and helpful=20 posters, and lets not forget the reference points a well developed doc=20 submission (and docs takes plain text submissions too, I'm told, right=20 nightmorph?) is going to be worth. These sorts of references can be=20 developed in perhaps six months or so, rather less if you've already a=20 partially developed docs addition in mind. > As a consequence I naturally don't have any references (and might not b= y > the time I feel ready) but that wouldn't necessarily mean that I'm not > qualified to be working as a dev. Also one could imagine that a number > of other people without references, but the necessary qualifications > might think "To hell with this, I'll just put my effots somewhere else"= . Keep in mind that for many of the above, the six months to the=20 establishment of a reasonable record may be well underway before one ever= =20 decides to take their Gentoo contributions to the next level. As with=20 character and community references for a job or rental/lease, if you're=20 finding yourself having to deliberately develop them, you're probably=20 going about it the wrong way -- by the time you /need/ them, you should=20 find you just /have/ them, or something's wrong. IOW, just the fact of this one post is already contributing to the=20 formation of a reference of community involvement. =3D:^) > Another thing, you write that phone is preferred but I know that I act > relaxed in text with new people and as myself. Whereas on the phone I > hold back a bit, and don't really act myself. So perhaps the preference > should be the manner in which the one being interviewed is more > comfortable with and will act more naturally. Agreed. =20 It's interesting, as I'm rather the opposite of you. Personal experience= =20 has demonstrated well enough to me that I don't do well in instant text=20 contexts, be it texting/IM/IRC. OTOH, I'm reasonably comfortable on the=20 phone (and VoIP is nice =3D:^), and on the "async" messaging protocols su= ch=20 as email/lists/newsgroups/forums, etc, with newsgroups being a strong=20 favorite. Some months, maybe a year ago, now, someone mentioned (here) that= =20 an IRC interview was a requirement for Gentoo devhood. I followed up on=20 that, asking about it, and was basically told that if someone's not=20 willing to do even just the one IRC interview, they may as well not=20 bother, Gentoo's simply not interested in them as a dev, period. The=20 position was that refusing to do just that one session, if that's all you= =20 wanted to do, was simply being petty. Well, I was actually rather glad to get that clarified, because from the=20 beginning I've always tried to contribute what I could, and always figure= d=20 the logical end result of that, if I ever got there, was that I'd probabl= y=20 end up a Gentoo dev at some point. I've already been around for six=20 years, and see no reason I'd not be around in double that again, 12 years= =20 out, if Gentoo's still active by then. But I'm simply not going to waste= =20 my time with stuff I know I'm terrible at just to satisfy some hoop-jump=20 requirement, when there's way more FLOSS community projects begging for m= y=20 time than I have time to give them. So maybe I AM being petty and ridiculous in refusing that hoop-jump. But= =20 it seems to me the shoe fits just as well on the other foot, too. But=20 OTOH, maybe IRC /is/ a vital skill for a Gentoo dev, thus justifying that= =20 hoop. Regardless, I'm glad I know it now, as now, whenever I read about=20 the severe lack of devs, I know Gentoo can't use me in that capacity=20 anyway, so I don't have to think about it any more. I can be just a user= =20 and contribute where I can, here and elsewhere. And as any other user, i= f=20 Gentoo ultimately goes down the tubes due to lack of dev interest, well=20 , it's too bad I guess, but as with most users, I'll eventually=20 find another distribution. And I /am/ reading good things about Arch,=20 lately. =3D:^) But meanwhile, Gentoo remains, I believe, the best possible match for me=20 /as/ a "power user"; one now affirmed in that status; one who actually=20 appreciates the ability to control what's on his system and how the=20 components interact with each other at a level of detail that's difficult= =20 or impossible to get with most distributions. If as a Gentoo user it's=20 going to be, a Gentoo user I've been for six years and a Gentoo user I ma= y=20 very well be in another six years, doubled, tripled even, if Gentoo's=20 still around for me by then... Or maybe this thread'll trigger some change, and I'll eventually end up a= =20 Gentoo dev, with a bigger bit than it presently seems in shaping the=20 possibility of having a healthy Gentoo a dozen years from now. User or=20 dev, doesn't matter. If my contributions help the chances of there being= =20 a healthy Gentoo for me to still be using a dozen years from now, I'm=20 happy. =3D:^) Otherwise, there's certainly other places and projects=20 that'll welcome those contributions, and if Gentoo dies due to lack of=20 interest from those deemed qualified, holding the fort until the end,=20 well, there's other distributions. too, and I'm sure I'll find a place as= =20 a user of one of them. --=20 Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs. "Every nonfree program has a lord, a master -- and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman