* [gentoo-dev] Retiring @ 2009-05-03 21:26 Peter Faraday Weller 2009-05-03 22:51 ` [gentoo-dev] Retiring Duncan ` (3 more replies) 0 siblings, 4 replies; 38+ messages in thread From: Peter Faraday Weller @ 2009-05-03 21:26 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-core; +Cc: gentoo-dev Hi, I've enjoyed my time with Gentoo, mostly... But these days I've just got too demotivated to work on it. I might have stayed if Ken69267 posted me some Lifesavers, but he didn't. :( On a more serious note, the problem seems to be the complete lack of management in the required places, Gentoo is fast becoming (or more likely, already is) an anarchic organisation, where it's becoming nigh-on impossible to keep track of things. I see a number of issues with Gentoo these days. The lack of a proper leadership body. Lack of people working together in unison. The tree needs to be sorted out: we have >16000 packages, and 200-250 developers, not all of which are ebuild developers) - We're still using CVS, we do *not* have the manpower to keep all the packages updated properly using a centralised VCS. If these issues were fixed, I don't know/care how they do get fixed, but if they were, I might consider coming back. If you *really* want me to stay/not retire, and attempt to help fix these issues, then I guess I can do so if enough people request that of me. But I will do so purely in a "managerial" position, and will do no ebuild or other such development. I'll still hang around in various channels and so on and so forth. Whatever happens, I do apparently maintain a few misc packages, most of which are low maintenance. Various herds will now need a new lead (apologies guys), so that will have to be arranged as well. You will also need to find another slacker to replace me ;) If there isn't a mass revolt against my retirement, so long, and thanks for all the fish! Otherwise... We'll see. Thanks, welp ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* [gentoo-dev] Re: Retiring 2009-05-03 21:26 [gentoo-dev] Retiring Peter Faraday Weller @ 2009-05-03 22:51 ` Duncan 2009-05-04 11:47 ` Ferris McCormick 2009-05-04 8:34 ` [gentoo-dev] Retiring Markos Chandras ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 1 reply; 38+ messages in thread From: Duncan @ 2009-05-03 22:51 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev Peter Faraday Weller <welp@gentoo.org> posted 1241385973.4028.67.camel@localhost.localdomain, excerpted below, on Sun, 03 May 2009 22:26:13 +0100: > On a more serious note, the problem seems to be the complete lack of > management in the required places, Gentoo is fast becoming (or more > likely, already is) an anarchic organisation, where it's becoming > nigh-on impossible to keep track of things. > > I see a number of issues with Gentoo these days. The lack of a proper > leadership body. Lack of people working together in unison. The tree > needs to be sorted out: we have >16000 packages, and 200-250 developers, > not all of which are ebuild developers) - We're still using CVS, we do > *not* have the manpower to keep all the packages updated properly using > a centralised VCS. If these issues were fixed, I don't know/care how > they do get fixed, but if they were, I might consider coming back. FWIW, from my perspective, Gentoo has turned the corner, we've hit the low point (which I'd put at when the foundation dissolved due to malaise) and things are beginning to improve now. Certainly there's a lot of work remaining to be done and nobody's perfect, but I really do see positive changes this last year or so. The council is actually somewhat functional now again, no more multi-hour meetings that get little if anything accomplished. Gentoo worked thru the foundation and council crises. I don't do IRC so can't evaluate it, but certainly, the lists have gotten rather more professional the last while -- no more severe personal attacks, and when it starts heading that way, often both sides get warnings to "stop it" and people do (tho this of course doesn't mean there's not disagreements, only that they're kept to something approaching a reasonable professional level). Yes, Gentoo is still using CVS, but there are moves toward something else, with GIT seemingly the lead candidate. While I don't see it getting to that point in the remaining bit of the current council term, I hope that it's a major item on the agenda for the next council to deal with. The overlay structure seems to be quite active and is continuing toward better overall integration, with issues like overlay and eclass priority and sharing being worked out. Now Gentoo does seem to be at that "magic" 250-ish person mid-size organizational cap, has been there for some time, and hasn't seemed to get past it. OTOH, few organizations do tend to get past that, Debian being the commonly mentioned FLOSS community exception, so Gentoo isn't alone in that regard. In fact, there's many organizations that would LOVE to be dealing with that problem as long as Gentoo has been. Maybe we'll ultimately get past it, maybe we won't and we'll just have to learn to manage at the 250-ish size we are. Perhaps the biggest mark of improvement for me personally has been that (as I recently hinted in a post to the docs list) I'm actually thinking about becoming a dev again. For some months, I had lost the motivation and reasons I might wish to do so, but now it's back. I'm certainly grateful for the folks that stuck around thru the bottom, and yes, that IS a marked improvement I'm glad to see. =:^) So anyway, we seem to disagree on what's happening with Gentoo, but I really do see improvement, and think it's a shame to have people leaving for the lack of it, just as things from my perspective seem to be turning around. But, regardless of whether you choose to stay or go, and that's of course a decision you must make (recognizing that people do sometimes need a time away, ideally to return refreshed and revitalized, ready to take on new challenges), you did say you may be back if you see that some of these issues have been addressed. Based on that, if indeed the changes I am beginning to see continue, plan on that return, 'cause those changes are coming. =:^) -- Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs. "Every nonfree program has a lord, a master -- and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Retiring 2009-05-03 22:51 ` [gentoo-dev] Retiring Duncan @ 2009-05-04 11:47 ` Ferris McCormick 2009-05-04 13:05 ` Duncan 0 siblings, 1 reply; 38+ messages in thread From: Ferris McCormick @ 2009-05-04 11:47 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4662 bytes --] On Sun, 3 May 2009 18:51:59 -0400 Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net> wrote: > Peter Faraday Weller <welp@gentoo.org> posted > 1241385973.4028.67.camel@localhost.localdomain, excerpted below, on Sun, > 03 May 2009 22:26:13 +0100: > > > On a more serious note, the problem seems to be the complete lack of > > management in the required places, Gentoo is fast becoming (or more > > likely, already is) an anarchic organisation, where it's becoming > > nigh-on impossible to keep track of things. > > > > I see a number of issues with Gentoo these days. The lack of a proper > > leadership body. Lack of people working together in unison. The tree > > needs to be sorted out: we have >16000 packages, and 200-250 developers, > > not all of which are ebuild developers) - We're still using CVS, we do > > *not* have the manpower to keep all the packages updated properly using > > a centralised VCS. If these issues were fixed, I don't know/care how > > they do get fixed, but if they were, I might consider coming back. > > FWIW, from my perspective, Gentoo has turned the corner, we've hit the > low point (which I'd put at when the foundation dissolved due to malaise) > and things are beginning to improve now. Certainly there's a lot of work > remaining to be done and nobody's perfect, but I really do see positive > changes this last year or so. > For what it's worth (probably not much) I think Foundation is functioning now. At least, we are legal again, have bylaws, and a real bank account. > The council is actually somewhat functional now again, no more multi-hour > meetings that get little if anything accomplished. Gentoo worked thru > the foundation and council crises. I don't do IRC so can't evaluate it, > but certainly, the lists have gotten rather more professional the last > while -- no more severe personal attacks, and when it starts heading that > way, often both sides get warnings to "stop it" and people do (tho this > of course doesn't mean there's not disagreements, only that they're kept > to something approaching a reasonable professional level). > > Yes, Gentoo is still using CVS, but there are moves toward something > else, with GIT seemingly the lead candidate. While I don't see it > getting to that point in the remaining bit of the current council term, I > hope that it's a major item on the agenda for the next council to deal > with. The overlay structure seems to be quite active and is continuing > toward better overall integration, with issues like overlay and eclass > priority and sharing being worked out. > > Now Gentoo does seem to be at that "magic" 250-ish person mid-size > organizational cap, has been there for some time, and hasn't seemed to > get past it. OTOH, few organizations do tend to get past that, Debian > being the commonly mentioned FLOSS community exception, so Gentoo isn't > alone in that regard. In fact, there's many organizations that would > LOVE to be dealing with that problem as long as Gentoo has been. Maybe > we'll ultimately get past it, maybe we won't and we'll just have to learn > to manage at the 250-ish size we are. > > Perhaps the biggest mark of improvement for me personally has been that > (as I recently hinted in a post to the docs list) I'm actually thinking > about becoming a dev again. For some months, I had lost the motivation > and reasons I might wish to do so, but now it's back. I'm certainly > grateful for the folks that stuck around thru the bottom, and yes, that > IS a marked improvement I'm glad to see. =:^) > > So anyway, we seem to disagree on what's happening with Gentoo, but I > really do see improvement, and think it's a shame to have people leaving > for the lack of it, just as things from my perspective seem to be turning > around. But, regardless of whether you choose to stay or go, and that's > of course a decision you must make (recognizing that people do sometimes > need a time away, ideally to return refreshed and revitalized, ready to > take on new challenges), you did say you may be back if you see that some > of these issues have been addressed. Based on that, if indeed the > changes I am beginning to see continue, plan on that return, 'cause those > changes are coming. =:^) > > -- > Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs. > "Every nonfree program has a lord, a master -- > and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman > > Regards, Probably should not have responded, Ferris -- Ferris McCormick (P44646, MI) <fmccor@gentoo.org> Developer, Gentoo Linux (Sparc, Userrel, Trustees) [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* [gentoo-dev] Re: Retiring 2009-05-04 11:47 ` Ferris McCormick @ 2009-05-04 13:05 ` Duncan 0 siblings, 0 replies; 38+ messages in thread From: Duncan @ 2009-05-04 13:05 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev Ferris McCormick <fmccor@gentoo.org> posted 20090504114734.3032916d@anaconda.krait.us, excerpted below, on Mon, 04 May 2009 11:47:34 +0000: > For what it's worth (probably not much) I think Foundation is > functioning now. At least, we are legal again, have bylaws, and a real > bank account. I should have stated so directly, but FWIW I agree. I'm on the NFP list as I have been since 2004 (when I started with Gentoo), so I know the general status. I did say I thought that was the low point and that Gentoo had turned the corner since then, but given that I DID list it as a low point, it would have been only proper to specifically mention that I think it has come back from the brink (which it was over, but you guys pulled it back! =:^) too. So thanks for pointing that out, and thanks too, to you and the other foundation folks, for all the time and effort you've put into pulling it back from over the brink, as you have. That's no small thing, even if by original design the foundation is separated enough from the day-to-day and technical Gentoo side that it seldom comes up here or in most other Gentoo discussions, and few enough even know about it, let alone stop to say thanks once in awhile. It's certainly not every dev (or user, as I am) that either has the skills for that sort of thing, or even cares about it, so the least we can do is give you a round of thanks for taking on what most of us would prefer not even to have to think about at all. -- Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs. "Every nonfree program has a lord, a master -- and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring 2009-05-03 21:26 [gentoo-dev] Retiring Peter Faraday Weller 2009-05-03 22:51 ` [gentoo-dev] Retiring Duncan @ 2009-05-04 8:34 ` Markos Chandras 2009-05-04 11:36 ` Peter Faraday Weller 2009-05-04 11:50 ` Ferris McCormick 2009-05-04 15:54 ` Vlastimil Babka 2009-05-04 17:06 ` George Prowse 3 siblings, 2 replies; 38+ messages in thread From: Markos Chandras @ 2009-05-04 8:34 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 906 bytes --] On Monday 04 May 2009 00:26:13 Peter Faraday Weller wrote: > Hi, > > I've enjoyed my time with Gentoo, mostly... But these days I've just got > too demotivated to work on it. I might have stayed if Ken69267 posted me > some Lifesavers, but he didn't. :( > > On a more serious note, the problem seems to be the complete lack of > management in the required places, Gentoo is fast becoming >[..] >I might consider coming back. > Indeed Gentoo has several problems. But we should stay together and try to deal with them. I 've been around as a dev for 3 months and I think 4-5 devs retired since then because of all the 'Gentoo anarchy' etc. So please stay and help us all solve those issues. I am pretty sure that you are not the only one who's having those thoughts. -- Markos Chandras (hwoarang) Gentoo Linux Developer [KDE/Qt/Sound/Sunrise] Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.org [-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part. --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring 2009-05-04 8:34 ` [gentoo-dev] Retiring Markos Chandras @ 2009-05-04 11:36 ` Peter Faraday Weller 2009-05-04 11:50 ` Ferris McCormick 1 sibling, 0 replies; 38+ messages in thread From: Peter Faraday Weller @ 2009-05-04 11:36 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev; +Cc: hwoarang On Mon, 2009-05-04 at 11:34 +0300, Markos Chandras wrote: > On Monday 04 May 2009 00:26:13 Peter Faraday Weller wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I've enjoyed my time with Gentoo, mostly... But these days I've just got > > too demotivated to work on it. I might have stayed if Ken69267 posted me > > some Lifesavers, but he didn't. :( > > > > On a more serious note, the problem seems to be the complete lack of > > management in the required places, Gentoo is fast becoming > >[..] > >I might consider coming back. > > > Indeed Gentoo has several problems. But we should stay together and try to > deal with them. I 've been around as a dev for 3 months and I think 4-5 devs > retired since then because of all the 'Gentoo anarchy' etc. So please stay and > help us all solve those issues. I am pretty sure that you are not the only one > who's having those thoughts. Perhaps not, but I've been thinking these thoughts for a good few months now. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring 2009-05-04 8:34 ` [gentoo-dev] Retiring Markos Chandras 2009-05-04 11:36 ` Peter Faraday Weller @ 2009-05-04 11:50 ` Ferris McCormick 2009-05-04 12:35 ` Markos Chandras 1 sibling, 1 reply; 38+ messages in thread From: Ferris McCormick @ 2009-05-04 11:50 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1257 bytes --] On Mon, 4 May 2009 04:34:20 -0400 Markos Chandras <hwoarang@gentoo.org> wrote: > On Monday 04 May 2009 00:26:13 Peter Faraday Weller wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I've enjoyed my time with Gentoo, mostly... But these days I've just got > > too demotivated to work on it. I might have stayed if Ken69267 posted me > > some Lifesavers, but he didn't. :( > > > > On a more serious note, the problem seems to be the complete lack of > > management in the required places, Gentoo is fast becoming > >[..] > >I might consider coming back. > > > Indeed Gentoo has several problems. But we should stay together and try to > deal with them. I 've been around as a dev for 3 months and I think 4-5 devs > retired since then because of all the 'Gentoo anarchy' etc. So please stay and > help us all solve those issues. I am pretty sure that you are not the only one > who's having those thoughts. I've been a developer a bit over 5 years. We know the problems and are working to fix them. > -- > Markos Chandras (hwoarang) > Gentoo Linux Developer [KDE/Qt/Sound/Sunrise] > Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.org Regards, Ferris -- Ferris McCormick (P44646, MI) <fmccor@gentoo.org> Developer, Gentoo Linux (Sparc, Userrel, Trustees) [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring 2009-05-04 11:50 ` Ferris McCormick @ 2009-05-04 12:35 ` Markos Chandras 2009-05-04 17:48 ` Tiziano Müller 2009-05-04 18:24 ` Richard Freeman 0 siblings, 2 replies; 38+ messages in thread From: Markos Chandras @ 2009-05-04 12:35 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 808 bytes --] On Monday 04 May 2009 14:50:56 Ferris McCormick wrote: > On Mon, 4 May 2009 04:34:20 -0400 [..] > I've been a developer a bit over 5 years. We know the problems and are > working to fix them. > I am sure that you know them. But those problems are the reasons why more and more developers are demotivated and leaving Gentoo. 'Fixing' those problems should be a N1 priority on every gentoo council meeting until they are gone. There is absolutely no point in trying to introduce new features and stuff when we are so understaffed. First we need to bring more people on Gentoo and keep the current manpower motivated. When we are done with that, we can focus on features :\ -- Markos Chandras (hwoarang) Gentoo Linux Developer [KDE/Qt/Sunrise/Sound] Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.gr [-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part. --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring 2009-05-04 12:35 ` Markos Chandras @ 2009-05-04 17:48 ` Tiziano Müller 2009-05-04 18:24 ` Richard Freeman 1 sibling, 0 replies; 38+ messages in thread From: Tiziano Müller @ 2009-05-04 17:48 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1375 bytes --] Am Montag, den 04.05.2009, 15:35 +0300 schrieb Markos Chandras: > On Monday 04 May 2009 14:50:56 Ferris McCormick wrote: > > On Mon, 4 May 2009 04:34:20 -0400 > [..] > > I've been a developer a bit over 5 years. We know the problems and are > > working to fix them. > > > I am sure that you know them. But those problems are the reasons why more and > more developers are demotivated and leaving Gentoo. 'Fixing' those problems > should be a N1 priority on every gentoo council meeting until they are gone. > There is absolutely no point in trying to introduce new features and stuff when > we are so understaffed. First we need to bring more people on Gentoo and keep > the current manpower motivated. When we are done with that, we can focus on > features :\ The point of most features is to make maintenance easier and reduce breakages at user-side which hopefully reduces the amount of bugs reported because of such breakages and keep our users happy and happy users are more likely to contribute or become devs when they see some progress. But you're right, we have to find the balance somehow... -- Tiziano Müller Gentoo Linux Developer, Council Member Areas of responsibility: Samba, PostgreSQL, CPP, Python, sysadmin, GLEP Editor E-Mail : dev-zero@gentoo.org GnuPG FP : F327 283A E769 2E36 18D5 4DE2 1B05 6A63 AE9C 1E30 [-- Attachment #2: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring 2009-05-04 12:35 ` Markos Chandras 2009-05-04 17:48 ` Tiziano Müller @ 2009-05-04 18:24 ` Richard Freeman 2009-05-04 19:09 ` Markos Chandras 1 sibling, 1 reply; 38+ messages in thread From: Richard Freeman @ 2009-05-04 18:24 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev Markos Chandras wrote: > I am sure that you know them. But those problems are the reasons why more and > more developers are demotivated and leaving Gentoo. 'Fixing' those problems > should be a N1 priority on every gentoo council meeting until they are gone. > There is absolutely no point in trying to introduce new features and stuff when > we are so understaffed. First we need to bring more people on Gentoo and keep > the current manpower motivated. When we are done with that, we can focus on > features :\ While I see where you are coming from, I can't agree with the approach of halting all forward movement until all current issues are resolved. The problem is that we're a volunteer-driven organization, so we can't simply tell people "close STABLEREQ bugs first, work on fun stuff later". We can certainly encourage people to do this, but there will ALWAYS be more maintenance items and I think we'll do better to keep Gentoo exciting and dynamic and try to attract more help, and then there will be more bodies around to take care of the grind of bugs. Essentially features are what keeps a significant portion of the current manpower motivated. Now, there are lots of people around who actually like doing maintenance and caring for specific packages, and we should certainly try to find more people like this. However, those who would rather be implementing new EAPIs in Portage/Paludis/Pkgcore/whatever won't necessarily work on arch bugs just because there is a need for this. I think the best we can do is try to highlight the issues so that those who are interested are aware of them and can sign up to help. I'd also love to see the council and trustees actively looking for solutions to these problems, but it can't be the only issue on the agenda. I've never been big on the whole "Gentoo is dying" meme. All people and organizations are dying - we're all born dying. Death is just the natural state of the universe in the absence of life. Even if Gentoo were perfect and full of activity we would have people leaving for various reasons - the key is to have people coming in to replace and even surpass those who leave. Gentoo has a LOT to offer the linux community - and if anything I'd say the level of innovation in Gentoo (and related projects) has been trending upwards in recent months. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring 2009-05-04 18:24 ` Richard Freeman @ 2009-05-04 19:09 ` Markos Chandras 2009-05-05 13:50 ` Richard Freeman 0 siblings, 1 reply; 38+ messages in thread From: Markos Chandras @ 2009-05-04 19:09 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1197 bytes --] On Monday 04 May 2009 21:24:11 Richard Freeman wrote: > Markos Chandras wrote: > > I am sure that you know them. But those problems are the reasons why more > > and more developers are demotivated and leaving Gentoo. 'Fixing' those > > problems should be a N1 priority on every gentoo council meeting until > > they are gone. There is absolutely no point in trying to introduce new > > features and stuff when we are so understaffed. First we need to bring > > more people on Gentoo and keep the current manpower motivated. When we > > are done with that, we can focus on features :\ > > While I see where you are coming from, I can't agree with the approach > of halting all forward movement until all current issues are resolved. > The problem is that we're a volunteer-driven organization, so we can't > simply tell people "close STABLEREQ bugs first, work on fun stuff > later". Even a "volunteer-driven" organization needs some "standard" rules in order to survive. From time to time this "volunteer" moto is what some people consider as "anarchy" -- Markos Chandras (hwoarang) Gentoo Linux Developer [KDE/Qt/Sound/Sunrise] Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.org [-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part. --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring 2009-05-04 19:09 ` Markos Chandras @ 2009-05-05 13:50 ` Richard Freeman 2009-05-05 14:06 ` Markos Chandras 0 siblings, 1 reply; 38+ messages in thread From: Richard Freeman @ 2009-05-05 13:50 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev Markos Chandras wrote: > Even a "volunteer-driven" organization needs some "standard" rules in order to > survive. From time to time this "volunteer" moto is what some people consider > as "anarchy" > As far as survival goes - I think the rumors of Gentoo's death are greatly exaggerated. I certainly agree that we need standards, but as far as I can tell those exist. I'm not exactly sure what the actual problem is. What resolvable issue is directly impacting the Gentoo community, and how would things actually be better if that issue didn't exist? What is the itch that needs scratching? I don't see developers putting QA violations into the portage tree left and right. For the most part I'd say the level of abuse in bugzilla is down and continues to trend down. Sure, manpower is limited, but the solution to that isn't to tell the people who are here to "work harder or quit" (which means quit) but instead to recruit more help. Arch teams seem to be generally doing a good job keeping up with STABLEREQs on the major archs - if you use a minor arch that isn't as well supported I'm sure we'd be happy to have more help. Is the issue anarchy, or the bazaar model in general? You can't always have it both ways... ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring 2009-05-05 13:50 ` Richard Freeman @ 2009-05-05 14:06 ` Markos Chandras 2009-05-05 16:18 ` Tobias Klausmann 2009-05-05 16:26 ` Thomas Anderson 0 siblings, 2 replies; 38+ messages in thread From: Markos Chandras @ 2009-05-05 14:06 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1511 bytes --] On Tuesday 05 May 2009 16:50:47 Richard Freeman wrote: > Markos Chandras wrote: > > Even a "volunteer-driven" organization needs some "standard" rules in > > order to survive. From time to time this "volunteer" moto is what some > > people consider as "anarchy" > > As far as survival goes - I think the rumors of Gentoo's death are > greatly exaggerated. I certainly agree that we need standards, but as > far as I can tell those exist. > > I don't see developers putting QA violations into the portage tree left > and right. For the most part I'd say the level of abuse in bugzilla is > down and continues to trend down. Sure, manpower is limited, but the > solution to that isn't to tell the people who are here to "work harder > or quit" (which means quit) but instead to recruit more help. When,how,and who is going to write down a list of possible "recruitment hunting" actions? There is too much chit-chatting around but nobody ( including me of course) is daring to propose actual solutions and proposals > Arch > teams seem to be generally doing a good job keeping up with STABLEREQs > on the major archs - if you use a minor arch that isn't as well > supported I'm sure we'd be happy to have more help. Arch teams, according to their project pages, are in a good shape. Major arches have enough people ( assuming that the project pages are up2date ) -- Markos Chandras (hwoarang) Gentoo Linux Developer [KDE/Qt/Sunrise/Sound] Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.org [-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part. --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring 2009-05-05 14:06 ` Markos Chandras @ 2009-05-05 16:18 ` Tobias Klausmann 2009-05-05 16:26 ` Sergio D. Rodríguez Inclan 2009-05-05 16:26 ` Thomas Anderson 1 sibling, 1 reply; 38+ messages in thread From: Tobias Klausmann @ 2009-05-05 16:18 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev Hi! On Tue, 05 May 2009, Markos Chandras wrote: > Arch teams, according to their project pages, are in a good shape. Major > arches have enough people ( assuming that the project pages are up2date ) If I keel over and armin76 is stuck in work/'versity, the alpha dev count is 0. Not exactly good, but we manage. I'm in the process of recruiting an archtester and he may become a dev one day. That said, more feedback from /users/ regarding alpha would be appreciated, but I doubt -dev@ is the best place to look for it ;) Regards, Tobias (aka Blackb|rd on IRC) -- panic("smp_callin() AAAAaaaaahhhh....\n"); linux-2.6.6/arch/parisc/kernel/smp.c ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring 2009-05-05 16:18 ` Tobias Klausmann @ 2009-05-05 16:26 ` Sergio D. Rodríguez Inclan 2009-05-05 16:36 ` [gentoo-dev] Retiring Duncan 2009-05-05 16:46 ` [gentoo-dev] Retiring Markos Chandras 0 siblings, 2 replies; 38+ messages in thread From: Sergio D. Rodríguez Inclan @ 2009-05-05 16:26 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 422 bytes --] Could be a good idea publish a status of each Gentoo project and see what is needed, so the users/devs can offer some help. -- Sergio D. Rodríguez Inclan ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://srinclan.wordpress.com Linux User #446728 --> http://counter.li.org/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 539 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* [gentoo-dev] Re: Retiring 2009-05-05 16:26 ` Sergio D. Rodríguez Inclan @ 2009-05-05 16:36 ` Duncan 2009-05-05 16:46 ` [gentoo-dev] Retiring Markos Chandras 1 sibling, 0 replies; 38+ messages in thread From: Duncan @ 2009-05-05 16:36 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev Sergio D. Rodríguez Inclan <srinclan@gmail.com> posted f01ff58b0905050926o74ddf373l85a1c49a6a3225b@mail.gmail.com, excerpted below, on Tue, 05 May 2009 12:26:23 -0400: > Could be a good idea publish a status of each Gentoo project and see > what is needed, so the users/devs can offer some help. Actually, the various project leads do tend to do this once or twice a year, with most projects following the leader after someone starts it, posting status to the dev list, at least. It /is/ about time for another round I think, but I hope whoever decides to start it starts it as a new thread, not attached to this one. So project leads? Who wants to be first? =:^) -- Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs. "Every nonfree program has a lord, a master -- and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring 2009-05-05 16:26 ` Sergio D. Rodríguez Inclan 2009-05-05 16:36 ` [gentoo-dev] Retiring Duncan @ 2009-05-05 16:46 ` Markos Chandras 2009-05-05 16:51 ` Robert Bridge 2009-05-05 17:03 ` Mounir Lamouri 1 sibling, 2 replies; 38+ messages in thread From: Markos Chandras @ 2009-05-05 16:46 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 686 bytes --] On Tuesday 05 May 2009 19:26:23 Sergio D. Rodríguez Inclan wrote: > Could be a good idea publish a status of each Gentoo project and see what > is needed, so the users/devs can offer some help. Publish where? Blogs? mailing list? Forums? we dont have a centralized way to inform users about such issues so the publishing should be done in multiple places *planet *universe *forum *mailing list *... It is not that handy, is it? Some one could say "Post it on gentoo.org homepage". I wonder if users ever visit that page to read gentoo news :\ -- Markos Chandras (hwoarang) Gentoo Linux Developer [KDE/Qt/Sunrise/Sound] Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.org [-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part. --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring 2009-05-05 16:46 ` [gentoo-dev] Retiring Markos Chandras @ 2009-05-05 16:51 ` Robert Bridge 2009-05-05 17:03 ` Mounir Lamouri 1 sibling, 0 replies; 38+ messages in thread From: Robert Bridge @ 2009-05-05 16:51 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev Markos Chandras wrote: > Some one could say "Post it on gentoo.org homepage". I wonder if users ever > visit that page to read gentoo news :\ I can safely say that some never do... RobbieAB ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring 2009-05-05 16:46 ` [gentoo-dev] Retiring Markos Chandras 2009-05-05 16:51 ` Robert Bridge @ 2009-05-05 17:03 ` Mounir Lamouri 2009-05-05 17:07 ` Markos Chandras 2009-05-05 19:06 ` Sergio D. Rodríguez Inclan 1 sibling, 2 replies; 38+ messages in thread From: Mounir Lamouri @ 2009-05-05 17:03 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev Markos Chandras wrote: > On Tuesday 05 May 2009 19:26:23 Sergio D. Rodríguez Inclan wrote: > >> Could be a good idea publish a status of each Gentoo project and see what >> is needed, so the users/devs can offer some help. >> > [snip] > > Some one could say "Post it on gentoo.org homepage". I wonder if users ever > visit that page to read gentoo news :\ > There is already such a place [1] but I think not so much people knows about it. [1] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/staffing-needs/ Mounir ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring 2009-05-05 17:03 ` Mounir Lamouri @ 2009-05-05 17:07 ` Markos Chandras 2009-05-05 19:06 ` Sergio D. Rodríguez Inclan 1 sibling, 0 replies; 38+ messages in thread From: Markos Chandras @ 2009-05-05 17:07 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 805 bytes --] On Tuesday 05 May 2009 20:03:58 Mounir Lamouri wrote: > Markos Chandras wrote: > > On Tuesday 05 May 2009 19:26:23 Sergio D. Rodríguez Inclan wrote: > >> Could be a good idea publish a status of each Gentoo project and see > >> what is needed, so the users/devs can offer some help. > > > > [snip] > > > > Some one could say "Post it on gentoo.org homepage". I wonder if users > > ever visit that page to read gentoo news :\ > > There is already such a place [1] but I think not so much people knows > about it. > > [1] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/staffing-needs/ > > Mounir Indeed there is. But I think that neither users nor developers are really using it -- Markos Chandras (hwoarang) Gentoo Linux Developer [KDE/Qt/Sunrise/Sound] Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.org [-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part. --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring 2009-05-05 17:03 ` Mounir Lamouri 2009-05-05 17:07 ` Markos Chandras @ 2009-05-05 19:06 ` Sergio D. Rodríguez Inclan 1 sibling, 0 replies; 38+ messages in thread From: Sergio D. Rodríguez Inclan @ 2009-05-05 19:06 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 950 bytes --] > > There is already such a place [1] but I think not so much people knows > about it. > > [1] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/staffing-needs/ > > Mounir > > None of the problems mentioned here are present on that page, the information that could be useful is: how many developers are active, which are the short/long term objectives of the project, what are the actual problems/needs, news, etc. Each project could have this information on it's project page but it need to be easily accessed by the users and constantly updated, I'm sure there are people who doesn't have developer blood but can do that kind of informational work. -- Sergio D. Rodríguez Inclan ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://srinclan.wordpress.com Linux User #446728 --> http://counter.li.org/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1377 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring 2009-05-05 14:06 ` Markos Chandras 2009-05-05 16:18 ` Tobias Klausmann @ 2009-05-05 16:26 ` Thomas Anderson 2009-05-05 16:41 ` Markos Chandras 1 sibling, 1 reply; 38+ messages in thread From: Thomas Anderson @ 2009-05-05 16:26 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 843 bytes --] On Tue, May 05, 2009 at 05:06:43PM +0300, Markos Chandras wrote: > On Tuesday 05 May 2009 16:50:47 Richard Freeman wrote: > > Arch > > teams seem to be generally doing a good job keeping up with STABLEREQs > > on the major archs - if you use a minor arch that isn't as well > > supported I'm sure we'd be happy to have more help. > Arch teams, according to their project pages, are in a good shape. Major > arches have enough people ( assuming that the project pages are up2date ) The amd64 project page at least is definitely not. We have a ton of slackers. I'd venture to say most in the project don't actively work on amd64 at all. We are handling the load fairly well though. Thomas -- --------- Thomas Anderson Gentoo Developer ///////// Areas of responsibility: AMD64, Secretary to the Gentoo Council --------- [-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 197 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring 2009-05-05 16:26 ` Thomas Anderson @ 2009-05-05 16:41 ` Markos Chandras 2009-05-05 16:52 ` George Prowse 0 siblings, 1 reply; 38+ messages in thread From: Markos Chandras @ 2009-05-05 16:41 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1620 bytes --] On Tuesday 05 May 2009 19:26:00 Thomas Anderson wrote: > On Tue, May 05, 2009 at 05:06:43PM +0300, Markos Chandras wrote: > > On Tuesday 05 May 2009 16:50:47 Richard Freeman wrote: > > > Arch > > > teams seem to be generally doing a good job keeping up with STABLEREQs > > > on the major archs - if you use a minor arch that isn't as well > > > supported I'm sure we'd be happy to have more help. > > > > Arch teams, according to their project pages, are in a good shape. Major > > arches have enough people ( assuming that the project pages are up2date ) > > The amd64 project page at least is definitely not. We have a ton of > slackers. I'd venture to say most in the project don't actively work on > amd64 at all. We are handling the load fairly well though. > > Thomas /me is listing all the reported issues Really? I was thinking about joining amd64 project but when I visited the project page , I saw like 25 people listed as developers. So I thought that "Woow,there are plenty of dudes here, so there is no urgent need for new developers right now" This is a major issue as well. If the project pages are way out of date, how do we expect people to understand our real needs on manpower etc. Cleaning and updating the project pages once a while is not that difficult. It takes about 15' ( and a couple of e-mails to inform the slackers ). If we really (?) want to run a "recruitment" campaign, our "web presence" but be quite active and responsible. -- Markos Chandras (hwoarang) Gentoo Linux Developer [KDE/Qt/Sunrise/Sound] Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.org [-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part. --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring 2009-05-05 16:41 ` Markos Chandras @ 2009-05-05 16:52 ` George Prowse 2009-05-05 17:05 ` Markos Chandras 0 siblings, 1 reply; 38+ messages in thread From: George Prowse @ 2009-05-05 16:52 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev Markos Chandras wrote: > On Tuesday 05 May 2009 19:26:00 Thomas Anderson wrote: >> On Tue, May 05, 2009 at 05:06:43PM +0300, Markos Chandras wrote: >>> On Tuesday 05 May 2009 16:50:47 Richard Freeman wrote: >>>> Arch >>>> teams seem to be generally doing a good job keeping up with STABLEREQs >>>> on the major archs - if you use a minor arch that isn't as well >>>> supported I'm sure we'd be happy to have more help. >>> Arch teams, according to their project pages, are in a good shape. Major >>> arches have enough people ( assuming that the project pages are up2date ) >> The amd64 project page at least is definitely not. We have a ton of >> slackers. I'd venture to say most in the project don't actively work on >> amd64 at all. We are handling the load fairly well though. >> >> Thomas > /me is listing all the reported issues > > Really? I was thinking about joining amd64 project but when I visited the > project page , I saw like 25 people listed as developers. So I thought that > "Woow,there are plenty of dudes here, so there is no urgent need for new > developers right now" > > This is a major issue as well. If the project pages are way out of date, how > do we expect people to understand our real needs on manpower etc. Cleaning and > updating the project pages once a while is not that difficult. It takes about > 15' ( and a couple of e-mails to inform the slackers ). > > If we really (?) want to run a "recruitment" campaign, our "web presence" but > be quite active and responsible. > Is all this "help needed" stuff that ordinary users can help out with? If so dont people go and ask for help in the forums? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring 2009-05-05 16:52 ` George Prowse @ 2009-05-05 17:05 ` Markos Chandras 0 siblings, 0 replies; 38+ messages in thread From: Markos Chandras @ 2009-05-05 17:05 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 556 bytes --] On Tuesday 05 May 2009 19:52:34 George Prowse wrote: > Is all this "help needed" stuff that ordinary users can help out with? > If so dont people go and ask for help in the forums? I assume that this recruitment process does not address to every single gentoo user but to those who actually have technical knowledge and time to spare for their beloved distro :P. We have plenty of them on forums.gentoo.org ( and not only ) -- Markos Chandras (hwoarang) Gentoo Linux Developer [KDE/Qt/Sunrise/Sound] Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.org [-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part. --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring 2009-05-03 21:26 [gentoo-dev] Retiring Peter Faraday Weller 2009-05-03 22:51 ` [gentoo-dev] Retiring Duncan 2009-05-04 8:34 ` [gentoo-dev] Retiring Markos Chandras @ 2009-05-04 15:54 ` Vlastimil Babka 2009-05-04 16:36 ` Markos Chandras 2009-05-04 17:06 ` George Prowse 3 siblings, 1 reply; 38+ messages in thread From: Vlastimil Babka @ 2009-05-04 15:54 UTC (permalink / raw To: Gentoo Dev Peter Faraday Weller wrote: > On a more serious note, the problem seems to be the complete lack of > management in the required places, Gentoo is fast becoming (or more > likely, already is) an anarchic organisation, where it's becoming > nigh-on impossible to keep track of things. > > I see a number of issues with Gentoo these days. The lack of a proper > leadership body. Lack of people working together in unison. The tree > needs to be sorted out: we have >16000 packages, and 200-250 developers, > not all of which are ebuild developers) - We're still using CVS, we do > *not* have the manpower to keep all the packages updated properly using > a centralised VCS. If these issues were fixed, I don't know/care how > they do get fixed, but if they were, I might consider coming back. Hi, am I the only one to see a contradiction here? You criticise a centralised VCS and anarchism/lack of unison work at the same time. Wouldn't that be even worse with a distributed VCS then? :) I think it would. Also too much use of overlays seems bad to me (yeah the Java team is very guilty here :) and the idea of splitting tree to overlays (which pops up from time to time) is just nonsense IMHO. It seems that some people think distributed VCS (git) is a silver bullet that will fix everything? Or pushing more and more EAPI's will? I'm quite sure it won't fix the lack of focus. Which I somewhat feel too, but that may be just from the fact that I currently lack time (not motivation though, that seems almost inversely proportional :) ) for Gentoo. If more people agree on the lack of focus, then we should do something about it, instead of hoping that using better tools fixes it themselves. Vlastimil ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring 2009-05-04 15:54 ` Vlastimil Babka @ 2009-05-04 16:36 ` Markos Chandras 2009-05-04 17:02 ` Ciaran McCreesh 0 siblings, 1 reply; 38+ messages in thread From: Markos Chandras @ 2009-05-04 16:36 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2577 bytes --] On Monday 04 May 2009 18:54:09 Vlastimil Babka wrote: > Peter Faraday Weller wrote: > > On a more serious note, the problem seems to be the complete lack of > > management in the required places, Gentoo is fast becoming (or more > > likely, already is) an anarchic organisation, where it's becoming > > nigh-on impossible to keep track of things. > > > > I see a number of issues with Gentoo these days. The lack of a proper > > leadership body. Lack of people working together in unison. The tree > > needs to be sorted out: we have >16000 packages, and 200-250 developers, > > not all of which are ebuild developers) - We're still using CVS, we do > > *not* have the manpower to keep all the packages updated properly using > > a centralised VCS. If these issues were fixed, I don't know/care how > > they do get fixed, but if they were, I might consider coming back. > > Hi, > > am I the only one to see a contradiction here? You criticise a > centralised VCS and anarchism/lack of unison work at the same time. > Wouldn't that be even worse with a distributed VCS then? :) I dont think so. Centralized or distributed VCS does not have to do anything about the hierarchical structure of Gentoo. > I think it would. Also too much use of overlays seems bad to me Depends of course on how each team/dev uses the overlay. Some of us use the overlays as testing places which is much better than pushing ebuilds directly to tree without extensive testing :) > (yeah > the Java team is very guilty here :) and the idea of splitting tree to > overlays (which pops up from time to time) is just nonsense IMHO. +1 > > It seems that some people think distributed VCS (git) is a silver bullet > that will fix everything? Certainly it will help development a lot. Take a look on git overlays ( qting- edge,kde-testing etc ). The commit and bugfix rates are incredible because the VCS is amazingly fast. Using cvs, you need at least 2' for a simple commit of a single ebuild. Using git you can push 300 ebuilds at the same time. Imaging the difference... Git is an extra motivation ( at least for me :/ ) > Or pushing more and more EAPI's will? No... As I said before Gentoo is quite understaffed. First we need people. Then we can concentrate on features :) > If more people agree on the lack of focus, then we should do something > about it, instead of hoping that using better tools fixes it themselves. Any ideas? -- Markos Chandras (hwoarang) Gentoo Linux Developer [KDE/Qt/Sunrise/Sound] Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.org [-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part. --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring 2009-05-04 16:36 ` Markos Chandras @ 2009-05-04 17:02 ` Ciaran McCreesh 0 siblings, 0 replies; 38+ messages in thread From: Ciaran McCreesh @ 2009-05-04 17:02 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 739 bytes --] On Mon, 4 May 2009 19:36:04 +0300 Markos Chandras <hwoarang@gentoo.org> wrote: > > Or pushing more and more EAPI's will? > > No... As I said before Gentoo is quite understaffed. First we need > people. Then we can concentrate on features :) As it happens, a lot of the features that go into EAPIs are designed to help with that. They make it easier to write good ebuilds (and harder to get away with certain QA abuses by accident), possible to write ebuilds that are less annoying and possible to write ebuilds that cover things that could not previously be covered. And, looking at it the other way, Gentoo has lost a lot of good people because they weren't prepared to put up with EAPI stagnation. -- Ciaran McCreesh [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 197 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring 2009-05-03 21:26 [gentoo-dev] Retiring Peter Faraday Weller ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2009-05-04 15:54 ` Vlastimil Babka @ 2009-05-04 17:06 ` George Prowse 2009-05-04 17:23 ` Mario Fetka ` (2 more replies) 3 siblings, 3 replies; 38+ messages in thread From: George Prowse @ 2009-05-04 17:06 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev Peter Faraday Weller wrote: > Hi.... > > Thanks, > welp Sad to hear it mate. As the person who did your first install for you (i think) I think you will be missed. I am quite surprised about what you said about the state of things because i've got the distinct impression from others that Gentoo has been improving in the past 12 months. About the lack of the developers, something I proposed about 3 years ago might be applicable: has Gentoo ever thought about doing a "Dev Day" in much the same way as the "Bug Days"? Advertise a day where people can come and have a chat with developers and get coached because there is a vast amount of people and knowledge out there and I never see anything about Gentoo wanting people. If you book them, they will come. G ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring 2009-05-04 17:06 ` George Prowse @ 2009-05-04 17:23 ` Mario Fetka 2009-05-04 19:11 ` Markos Chandras 2009-05-05 20:45 ` AllenJB 2 siblings, 0 replies; 38+ messages in thread From: Mario Fetka @ 2009-05-04 17:23 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev On Monday, 4. May 2009 19:06:12 George Prowse wrote: > Peter Faraday Weller wrote: > > Hi.... > > > > Thanks, > > welp > > Sad to hear it mate. > > As the person who did your first install for you (i think) I think you > will be missed. > > I am quite surprised about what you said about the state of things > because i've got the distinct impression from others that Gentoo has > been improving in the past 12 months. > > About the lack of the developers, something I proposed about 3 years ago > might be applicable: has Gentoo ever thought about doing a "Dev Day" in > much the same way as the "Bug Days"? Advertise a day where people can > come and have a chat with developers and get coached because there is a > vast amount of people and knowledge out there and I never see anything > about Gentoo wanting people. > > If you book them, they will come. > > G and I would be the first to come Mario ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring 2009-05-04 17:06 ` George Prowse 2009-05-04 17:23 ` Mario Fetka @ 2009-05-04 19:11 ` Markos Chandras 2009-05-05 20:45 ` AllenJB 2 siblings, 0 replies; 38+ messages in thread From: Markos Chandras @ 2009-05-04 19:11 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 790 bytes --] On Monday 04 May 2009 20:06:12 George Prowse wrote: > Peter Faraday Weller wrote: > > Hi.... > > > > Thanks, > > welp > > Sad to hear it mate. > > As the person who did your first install for you (i think) I think you > will be missed. > > I am quite surprised about what you said about the state of things > because i've got the distinct impression from others that Gentoo has > been improving in the past 12 months. > > About the lack of the developers, something I proposed about 3 years ago > might be applicable: has Gentoo ever thought about doing a "Dev Day" in > much the same way as the "Bug Days"? This is actually a very interesting idea -- Markos Chandras (hwoarang) Gentoo Linux Developer [KDE/Qt/Sound/Sunrise] Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.org [-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part. --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring 2009-05-04 17:06 ` George Prowse 2009-05-04 17:23 ` Mario Fetka 2009-05-04 19:11 ` Markos Chandras @ 2009-05-05 20:45 ` AllenJB 2009-05-05 22:45 ` Markos Chandras 2 siblings, 1 reply; 38+ messages in thread From: AllenJB @ 2009-05-05 20:45 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev George Prowse wrote: > Peter Faraday Weller wrote: >> Hi.... >> >> Thanks, >> welp > > Sad to hear it mate. > > As the person who did your first install for you (i think) I think you > will be missed. > > I am quite surprised about what you said about the state of things > because i've got the distinct impression from others that Gentoo has > been improving in the past 12 months. > > About the lack of the developers, something I proposed about 3 years ago > might be applicable: has Gentoo ever thought about doing a "Dev Day" in > much the same way as the "Bug Days"? Advertise a day where people can > come and have a chat with developers and get coached because there is a > vast amount of people and knowledge out there and I never see anything > about Gentoo wanting people. > > If you book them, they will come. > > G > In my opinion, such a drive wouldn't work. I've said it before in previous posts to the Gentoo -devel and -project lists, as well as my blog posts[0]: I think Gentoo needs to improve the organisation of the projects. I know it takes developer time to update project pages and do things like maintaining the "developers wanted" pages, but I think that Gentoo would see this returned in a higher number of competent developers. One of the biggest problems I have as someone considering becoming a developer is following what's going on and working out where I could make contributions that are both something I would enjoy doing and would be useful for current milestones (eg. autobuilds handbooks or improving / stabilizing KDE4) that are being worked on. [0] http://allenjb.me.uk/category/linux/gentoo On a related note, I thought the recent email from the Prefix project to the -devel list was excellent - it's exactly the sort of thing I would hope to find on a projects page on gentoo.org. It contains a detailed explanation of the project, its purpose, current state and aims and includes a roadmap so that (potential) contributors can easily see where they can help out in a way that will be considered useful by the development team. I would also like to see some less secrecy for things that are going on. For example, I know that the newsletter team are currently working on a new setup for the newsletter. While I somewhat understand some of the reasons that the developers involved have chosen to not give out information on this project, I question the overall value in keeping such projects secret in this manner. A project page with the current progress and a roadmap of the project on would not only keep everyone informed, but might encourage contributions (in the form of solving any specific problems the developers are having, for example, or in the case of the newsletter, preparing content to contribute). I've also spoken before on the "bus factor", which I believe comes into play here. As far as I know only one or two developers are working on the project and if they were to disappear for a length of time for any reason, (virtually) all current knowledge of the project, its progress and its code / setup would be lost. This leads me on to another issue I have with Gentoo development, which I believe is related, and that is the organisation of the source code repositories. As far as I can see there appears to be no formal organisational scheme to this at all, which can make it really hard to find things. Ideally, I would like to see a scheme that generally goes something like: /project/subproject/task. So, for example, you could find all the docs under /documentation and all the newsletter content under /pr/newsletter. (On a sidenote, the SVN repos seem a little better on this than the CVS repos layout, but it's still not as clear as I think it could be) As always, I realize this would take time to change, but I (again) think there's a good chance that it would improve contributions (on the basis that potential contributors are more likely to actually contribute if they can find what they want to work on easily). AllenJB ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring 2009-05-05 20:45 ` AllenJB @ 2009-05-05 22:45 ` Markos Chandras 2009-05-06 18:32 ` Peter Faraday Weller 0 siblings, 1 reply; 38+ messages in thread From: Markos Chandras @ 2009-05-05 22:45 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2079 bytes --] On Tuesday 05 May 2009 23:45:14 AllenJB wrote: > George Prowse wrote: > > Peter Faraday Weller wrote: > >> Hi.... > >> > >> Thanks, > >> welp > > > > Sad to hear it mate. > > > > As the person who did your first install for you (i think) I think you > > will be missed. > > > > I am quite surprised about what you said about the state of things > > because i've got the distinct impression from others that Gentoo has > > been improving in the past 12 months. > > > > About the lack of the developers, something I proposed about 3 years ago > > might be applicable: has Gentoo ever thought about doing a "Dev Day" in > > much the same way as the "Bug Days"? Advertise a day where people can > > come and have a chat with developers and get coached because there is a > > vast amount of people and knowledge out there and I never see anything > > about Gentoo wanting people. > > > > If you book them, they will come. > > > > G > > In my opinion, such a drive wouldn't work. >[..] > As always, I realize this would take time to change, but I (again) think > there's a good chance that it would improve contributions (on the basis > that potential contributors are more likely to actually contribute if > they can find what they want to work on easily). > > > AllenJB I am sure there are some developers which can offer a great amount of time to help/revibe slacking or dead projects ( e.g. userrel, newsletters etc ). The thing is that leadership on several projects is inactive hence users or devs who are willing to help are getting demotivated. It would be really nice each individual project to perform a clean up like: 1) have an internal discussion about its goals and future 2) Remove dead members and elect a new leader if necessary 3) Update the page 4) Publish its status 5) Assist for help is necessary Looking 'active' is very important to attract new people to project. Is this so hard? -- Markos Chandras (hwoarang) Gentoo Linux Developer [KDE/Qt/Sound/Sunrise] Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.org [-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part. --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring 2009-05-05 22:45 ` Markos Chandras @ 2009-05-06 18:32 ` Peter Faraday Weller 2009-05-06 18:40 ` Roy Bamford 0 siblings, 1 reply; 38+ messages in thread From: Peter Faraday Weller @ 2009-05-06 18:32 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev On Wed, 2009-05-06 at 01:45 +0300, Markos Chandras wrote: > On Tuesday 05 May 2009 23:45:14 AllenJB wrote: [..snip..] > I am sure there are some developers which can offer a great amount of time to > help/revibe slacking or dead projects ( e.g. userrel, newsletters etc ). The > thing is that leadership on several projects is inactive hence users or devs > who are willing to help are getting demotivated. It would be really nice each > individual project to perform a clean up like: > > 1) have an internal discussion about its goals and future > 2) Remove dead members and elect a new leader if necessary > 3) Update the page > 4) Publish its status > 5) Assist for help is necessary > > Looking 'active' is very important to attract new people to project. > > Is this so hard? This is a really good idea, and I think that such an operation should be performed (and perhaps even enforced as a yearly or twice-yearly thing). The only issue I have with the idea is that projects with dead members and slacking leaders are unlikely to perform such a task, so you'll never get any updates from them, so devs will be demotivated to work on $project, and thus we enter the vicious cycle again... welp ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring 2009-05-06 18:32 ` Peter Faraday Weller @ 2009-05-06 18:40 ` Roy Bamford 2009-05-06 20:41 ` Peter Faraday Weller 2009-05-06 21:15 ` [gentoo-dev] Retiring Markos Chandras 0 siblings, 2 replies; 38+ messages in thread From: Roy Bamford @ 2009-05-06 18:40 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2009.05.06 19:32, Peter Faraday Weller wrote: > On Wed, 2009-05-06 at 01:45 +0300, Markos Chandras wrote: > > On Tuesday 05 May 2009 23:45:14 AllenJB wrote: > [..snip..] > > I am sure there are some developers which can offer a great amount > of time to > > help/revibe slacking or dead projects ( e.g. userrel, newsletters > etc ). The > > thing is that leadership on several projects is inactive hence > users > or devs > > who are willing to help are getting demotivated. It would be really > nice each > > individual project to perform a clean up like: [snip] > > > > Looking 'active' is very important to attract new people to > project. > > > > > Is this so hard? [snip] > The only issue I have with the idea is that projects with dead > members > and slacking leaders are unlikely to perform such a task, so you'll > never get any updates from them, so devs will be demotivated to work > on > $project, and thus we enter the vicious cycle again... > > welp > Welp, Not so. These projects would be delegated upwards to the council and either scrapped offically, or some recruitment process started to breath new life into them. Maybe dead projects are cleaned like treecleaners ? - -- Regards, Roy Bamford (NeddySeagoon) a member of gentoo-ops forum-mods treecleaners trustees -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.11 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoB2bkACgkQTE4/y7nJvau9rgCdEnTDAizW16ACkZYm/Ei0i3gF XhQAoNED5Cgsr+YwxQ3EK34acLCTu1oF =wOxS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring 2009-05-06 18:40 ` Roy Bamford @ 2009-05-06 20:41 ` Peter Faraday Weller 2009-05-06 21:28 ` [gentoo-dev] Retiring Duncan 2009-05-06 21:15 ` [gentoo-dev] Retiring Markos Chandras 1 sibling, 1 reply; 38+ messages in thread From: Peter Faraday Weller @ 2009-05-06 20:41 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev On Wed, 2009-05-06 at 19:40 +0100, Roy Bamford wrote: [..snip..] > > [snip] > > The only issue I have with the idea is that projects with dead > > members > > and slacking leaders are unlikely to perform such a task, so you'll > > never get any updates from them, so devs will be demotivated to work > > on > > $project, and thus we enter the vicious cycle again... > > > > welp > > > Welp, > > Not so. > > These projects would be delegated upwards to the council and either > scrapped offically, or some recruitment process started to breath new > life into them. > > Maybe dead projects are cleaned like treecleaners ? This actually sounds like a pretty good idea, and one that I might actually be interested in. Someone working within such a project would have to be in close communication with most/all of the team leads within Gentoo. I feel that this would be a better solution than asking for (semi-)regular updates from the teams - having someone to have a chat with the team lead is much less formal and more relaxed way of ensuring that things are well. If it seems that the project is having problems staying alive, a call for help could be put out. If there is no improvement, the project could be referred to the Gentoo Council to see if it should be removed/abolished, otherwise... Opinions/ideas welpcome! welp ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* [gentoo-dev] Re: Retiring 2009-05-06 20:41 ` Peter Faraday Weller @ 2009-05-06 21:28 ` Duncan 0 siblings, 0 replies; 38+ messages in thread From: Duncan @ 2009-05-06 21:28 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev Peter Faraday Weller <welp@gentoo.org> posted 1241642515.3120.16.camel@localhost.localdomain, excerpted below, on Wed, 06 May 2009 21:41:54 +0100: >> Maybe dead projects are cleaned like treecleaners ? > > This actually sounds like a pretty good idea, and one that I might > actually be interested in. > > Someone working within such a project would have to be in close > communication with most/all of the team leads within Gentoo. I feel that > this would be a better solution than asking for (semi-)regular updates > from the teams - having someone to have a chat with the team lead is > much less formal and more relaxed way of ensuring that things are well. > If it seems that the project is having problems staying alive, a call > for help could be put out. If there is no improvement, the project could > be referred to the Gentoo Council to see if it should be > removed/abolished, otherwise... > > Opinions/ideas welpcome! Hmm... and said person/project might do well to be in close contact with the council (maybe even /on/ the council) as well... which fits in rather nicely with the council election season coming up... Talking about which, those considering running for council may wish to pay special attention to the current series of project status updates as well, with an eye toward any actions that may be needed to help out particular projects, and/or revive/close/merge others. -- Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs. "Every nonfree program has a lord, a master -- and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring 2009-05-06 18:40 ` Roy Bamford 2009-05-06 20:41 ` Peter Faraday Weller @ 2009-05-06 21:15 ` Markos Chandras 1 sibling, 0 replies; 38+ messages in thread From: Markos Chandras @ 2009-05-06 21:15 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1813 bytes --] On Wednesday 06 May 2009 21:40:51 Roy Bamford wrote: > On 2009.05.06 19:32, Peter Faraday Weller wrote: > > On Wed, 2009-05-06 at 01:45 +0300, Markos Chandras wrote: > > > On Tuesday 05 May 2009 23:45:14 AllenJB wrote: > > > > [..snip..] > > > > > I am sure there are some developers which can offer a great amount > > > > of time to > > > > > help/revibe slacking or dead projects ( e.g. userrel, newsletters > > > > etc ). The > > > > > thing is that leadership on several projects is inactive hence > > > > users > > or devs > > > > > who are willing to help are getting demotivated. It would be really > > > > nice each > > > > > individual project to perform a clean up like: > > [snip] > > > > Looking 'active' is very important to attract new people to > > > > project. > > > > > Is this so hard? > > [snip] > > > The only issue I have with the idea is that projects with dead > > members > > and slacking leaders are unlikely to perform such a task, so you'll > > never get any updates from them, so devs will be demotivated to work > > on > > $project, and thus we enter the vicious cycle again... > > > > welp > > Welp, > > Not so. > > These projects would be delegated upwards to the council and either > scrapped offically, or some recruitment process started to breath new > life into them. > > Maybe dead projects are cleaned like treecleaners ? Indeed. No need to have 100 projects while 80 of them are considered dead. Cleaning them should be another assignment for treecleaners or a new group of developers who are willing to do this. I think treecleaners have enough to do with all the dead packages on the tree :P -- Markos Chandras (hwoarang) Gentoo Linux Developer [KDE/Qt/Sound/Sunrise] Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.org [-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part. --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 38+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2009-05-06 21:28 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 38+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2009-05-03 21:26 [gentoo-dev] Retiring Peter Faraday Weller 2009-05-03 22:51 ` [gentoo-dev] Retiring Duncan 2009-05-04 11:47 ` Ferris McCormick 2009-05-04 13:05 ` Duncan 2009-05-04 8:34 ` [gentoo-dev] Retiring Markos Chandras 2009-05-04 11:36 ` Peter Faraday Weller 2009-05-04 11:50 ` Ferris McCormick 2009-05-04 12:35 ` Markos Chandras 2009-05-04 17:48 ` Tiziano Müller 2009-05-04 18:24 ` Richard Freeman 2009-05-04 19:09 ` Markos Chandras 2009-05-05 13:50 ` Richard Freeman 2009-05-05 14:06 ` Markos Chandras 2009-05-05 16:18 ` Tobias Klausmann 2009-05-05 16:26 ` Sergio D. Rodríguez Inclan 2009-05-05 16:36 ` [gentoo-dev] Retiring Duncan 2009-05-05 16:46 ` [gentoo-dev] Retiring Markos Chandras 2009-05-05 16:51 ` Robert Bridge 2009-05-05 17:03 ` Mounir Lamouri 2009-05-05 17:07 ` Markos Chandras 2009-05-05 19:06 ` Sergio D. Rodríguez Inclan 2009-05-05 16:26 ` Thomas Anderson 2009-05-05 16:41 ` Markos Chandras 2009-05-05 16:52 ` George Prowse 2009-05-05 17:05 ` Markos Chandras 2009-05-04 15:54 ` Vlastimil Babka 2009-05-04 16:36 ` Markos Chandras 2009-05-04 17:02 ` Ciaran McCreesh 2009-05-04 17:06 ` George Prowse 2009-05-04 17:23 ` Mario Fetka 2009-05-04 19:11 ` Markos Chandras 2009-05-05 20:45 ` AllenJB 2009-05-05 22:45 ` Markos Chandras 2009-05-06 18:32 ` Peter Faraday Weller 2009-05-06 18:40 ` Roy Bamford 2009-05-06 20:41 ` Peter Faraday Weller 2009-05-06 21:28 ` [gentoo-dev] Retiring Duncan 2009-05-06 21:15 ` [gentoo-dev] Retiring Markos Chandras
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