From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org ([69.77.167.62] helo=lists.gentoo.org) by finch.gentoo.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1KXzPW-0001Wf-3m for garchives@archives.gentoo.org; Tue, 26 Aug 2008 14:20:42 +0000 Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2EBD0E02C3; Tue, 26 Aug 2008 14:20:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.gentoo.org (smtp.gentoo.org [140.211.166.183]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB99BE02C3 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2008 14:20:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CBE1641F4 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2008 14:20:27 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at gentoo.org X-Spam-Score: -2.763 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.763 required=5.5 tests=[AWL=0.836, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from smtp.gentoo.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.gentoo.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UAMGoc5awXrB for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2008 14:20:19 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7650367766 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2008 14:20:18 +0000 (UTC) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1KXzP4-0004Kr-Ni for gentoo-dev@gentoo.org; Tue, 26 Aug 2008 14:20:14 +0000 Received: from ip68-231-12-43.ph.ph.cox.net ([68.231.12.43]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2008 14:20:14 +0000 Received: from 1i5t5.duncan by ip68-231-12-43.ph.ph.cox.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2008 14:20:14 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org From: Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net> Subject: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] PROPERTIES=virtual for meta-packages (clarification of definition) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 14:20:07 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <48B1CC3C.2000103@gentoo.org> <20080825201217.194fecad@googlemail.com> <48B309C2.1060204@gentoo.org> <200808252103.27006.levertond@googlemail.com> <20080826142044.28367055@googlemail.com> Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: ip68-231-12-43.ph.ph.cox.net User-Agent: Pan/0.133 (House of Butterflies) Sender: news Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Archives-Salt: 43a3494b-d6b5-4230-8f1b-f86c380a9727 X-Archives-Hash: 3122eec4414eed66b331b2ac7355b9a6 Ciaran McCreesh posted 20080826142044.28367055@googlemail.com, excerpted below, on Tue, 26 Aug 2008 14:20:44 +0100: > On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 06:39:38 +0000 (UTC) Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net> > wrote: >> But I think virtual works just fine for kde-base/kde, too, if one >> simply reads it literally -- it's a virtual package in that it doesn't >> install anything itself, even if it's a meta-package [...] >=20 > So what does 'virtual' actually mean then, and how is it related to the > defined behaviour of this property? I'm unsure of whether that was intended to be a rhetorical question or=20 not, so taking it literally... According to kdict/WordNet: 2: being such in essence or effect though not in actual fact Extending that to the technical/computing realm, again kdict, this time=20 FOLDOC and Jargon file: (Via the technical term virtual memory, probably from the term "virtual image" in optics) 1. Common alternative to logical; often used to refer to the artificial objects (like addressable virtual memory larger than physical memory) created by a computer system to help the system control access to shared resources. =20 2. Simulated; performing the functions of something that isn't really there. An imaginative child's doll may be a virtual playmate. =20 Opposite of real or physical. =20 So a virtual package would have the essence and effects of a real one=20 (dependencies and the like) but not be "real" in some way (here, zero- install-cost, or more correctly, only the install cost of the=20 dependencies). More directly, a package that doesn't actually install anything itself,=20 only having dependencies that ensure other packages are installed. In original Gentoo usage, virtual packages didn't have ebuilds at all,=20 but referred to dependencies that several different packages could=20 provide, with the the profile generally specifying a default. Now many=20 of them have ebuilds, but the general idea of not installing anything=20 directly themselves, only thru dependencies, remains. This is equally=20 true of the original no-ebuild virtuals, those ebuilds in the virtual/=20 categories, and various meta-packages such as kde and kde-meta. Thus,=20 they fit the broader defintion of "virtual" in a literal sense,=20 regardless of where they are located in the category tree. However, I like the idea someone else proposed as well. Move all these=20 packages into the virtual category. That could of course be expanded to=20 include java-virtuals if desired, since virtual is still part of the=20 category name. Either as a single category or as anything with "virtual"= =20 in the category, this would make things easier for both the package=20 manager (making the property unnecessary) and the user, who would then=20 know on sight (in the tab-completion and in --pretend/ask as well as=20 various $PM messages) which packages were virtual. =20 Putting all virtual packages in the virtual category/ies would certainly=20 simplify the task of explaining to confused users why removing say kde- base/games wanted to remove virtual/kde (instead of kde-base/kde), but=20 wouldn't directly remove kdebase (tho emerge --depclean would then want=20 to do so, until the user did an emerge --no-replace kdebase, at least),=20 to use an example I saw in a different context recently. I therefore believe I like just moving them all to a *virtual*/ category=20 better, thus obviating the need for that particular property in the first= =20 place. --=20 Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs. "Every nonfree program has a lord, a master -- and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman