From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org ([69.77.167.62] helo=lists.gentoo.org) by finch.gentoo.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1K6xNX-0004vO-7E for garchives@archives.gentoo.org; Fri, 13 Jun 2008 00:42:55 +0000 Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0E5F5E0484; Fri, 13 Jun 2008 00:42:54 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.gentoo.org (smtp.gentoo.org [140.211.166.183]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7993E0484 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2008 00:42:53 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 553E565226 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2008 00:42:53 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at gentoo.org X-Spam-Score: -1.874 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.874 required=5.5 tests=[AWL=0.236, BAYES_05=-1.11, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from smtp.gentoo.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.gentoo.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p6BlXYUP-0s6 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2008 00:42:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4273A641F3 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2008 00:42:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1K6xNJ-0006jg-9O for gentoo-dev@gentoo.org; Fri, 13 Jun 2008 00:42:41 +0000 Received: from ip68-231-12-133.ph.ph.cox.net ([68.231.12.133]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2008 00:42:41 +0000 Received: from 1i5t5.duncan by ip68-231-12-133.ph.ph.cox.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2008 00:42:41 +0000 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org From: Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net> Subject: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June] Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 00:42:34 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <20080611070618.54E4066E24@smtp.gentoo.org> <20080612212148.GB14670@basestar> <200806122258.26896.levertond@googlemail.com> Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: ip68-231-12-133.ph.ph.cox.net User-Agent: Pan/0.132 (Waxed in Black) Sender: news Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Archives-Salt: eb3a8b25-9689-4afc-a416-ecf6fb2b79b9 X-Archives-Hash: 3baa8ff0b7d3a65206ddaefa7cc4a346 David Leverton posted 200806122258.26896.levertond@googlemail.com, excerpted below, on Thu, 12 Jun 2008 22:58:26 +0100: > On Thursday 12 June 2008 22:21:48 Wernfried Haas wrote: >> Agreed, if this is the way PMS is done, we should either get rid of it >> or do it differently. >> The current status as presented here is inacceptable. >=20 > Could someone please explain what's wrong with PMS, other than "needs > moar XML" and "I hate the people doing it"? Umm... pardon me for speaking my mind a bit here, and nothing personal,=20 particularly since I have the utmost respect for the talent and skills of= =20 the people involved, but after seeing a pattern repeated over the last=20 couple days I've seen time and time before, it's getting tiresome enough=20 to write up! In this instance, it's the "pulling teeth" to get info on a claimed known= =20 bug from PMS folks on pkgcore, while at the same time, complaints about=20 the non-clarity of PMS is met with remarks (by the same group of people)=20 of (paraphrased) "filed a patch yet?" The problem is that this hasn't been the only case. There's a pattern. =20 It /frequently/ takes a day or two's worth of mails to get any decent=20 info out of this paludis/PMS lead, with him claiming it should be=20 obvious, but it's not, and while even the slightest criticism the other=20 way is met with filed a patch yet? Eventually the dog and pony circus every time to drag out the needed=20 information gets old -- both for those forced to be the dog and ponies,=20 and for those reading it. Ultimately, something's going to give. Either information won't require=20 a dog and pony show to get so often from the current solution, or another= =20 solution, perhaps inferior otherwise and certainly a duplication of=20 effort, will have to be found. It's not just pkgcore either, it's two of the three current PMs having=20 problems, with the "One True Way" that everyone with any sense must=20 /surely/ see is superior (or so it seems the thought is) gets filed a bug= =20 (or patch) yet if met with any criticism as well, from the same folks=20 that it's like pulling teeth from to get any info from them. It has also= =20 been a pattern in quite a number of previous multi-day multi-hundred-post= =20 threads on various topics, involving the same people with the same=20 pattern, refusing to answer a simple request for info on the one hand,=20 while demanding bugs and/or patches when it's their turn. What if the "filed a bug yet" attitude held on both sides, or even if one= =20 side simply refused to play that begging dog or tricking pony the other=20 side expects them to be? It simply cannot go on that way forever. =20 Something's going to give, now, or later, when there's ultimately no more= =20 Gentoo to pull apart and therefore no more Gentoo PMs or PMS to continue=20 fighting over. --=20 Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs. "Every nonfree program has a lord, a master -- and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman --=20 gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list