Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[christian.hartmann]

> You want to become official.

We are official. It's not just the way things should be.

> In that regard, you do not get to take care of your own things anymore.

We will still recruit new mods/admins and take care of them. We will still moderate and administering the board and the software. We will still vote on new policies and guidelines. I fail to see what you mean by saying that.

> If that was the case, there would be no control over the direction developers take [...]

At this point there is no direct control over the direction Gentoo goes. But thats something completly different.

> If we say half of the global moderators are staff, and the other half
> are not, how are users supposed to know the difference?

That would be problem. - That's why all global mods/admins should become staff members. (As described in the GLEP.)

> Once you become official, the statements made by the forum moderators/administrators are
> pretty much official statements of Gentoo (to the user anyway).

That's the way it is already.

> Every developer and staff has taken the quiz [...]

Sorry, but thats not correct (at least to my knowledge). - Back in the good ol' days most of the developers knew each other and knew who was doing what. Taking a quiz became mandatory back in 2003 iirc. Devs who were already aboard did not need to take the quiz.

> [...] I fail to see what makes forum mods so special they deserve an exception;

We don't want to be treated special. Most of us (global mods/admins) are doing this job since years. Most of us joined before the quizes and the recruitment process were established.

> Again, I fail to see why the forum staff deserves an exception to the
> rules that every other person that is either staff for Gentoo or a
> developer for Gentoo has to follow.

Well.. that's right. Rules should be followed.* If it would be up to me everybody of us would take that quiz and we could stop this discussion. But it's not up to me. - It's not that simple.
Long time contributers don't see why somebody wants them to take a quiz just to be allowed to continue the work they did for years. Nobody knows the forums and the community that well as these people do.
Of course we could make taking the quiz mandatory for all moderators. But this would probably mean to lose some great contributors.
Again: Old devs did not need to take the quiz. New ones (usually) need to take the quiz.
The same rules should be applied to the forums-staff. New members do need to take the quiz as described in the GLEP and recruitment process.

[*] BTW: Check some new devs and their devbugs (if any) and you'll see that these rules do not apply to everyone. I'm not saying that this behaviour is correct; just wanted to mention that.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Fernando J. Pereda]

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On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 10:39:52AM +0200, christian.hartmann@email.de wrote:
> > You want to become official.
> 
> We are official. It's not just the way things should be.

Well... you want to become staff.

> > In that regard, you do not get to take care of your own things anymore.
> 
> We will still recruit new mods/admins and take care of them. We will still moderate and administering the board and the software. We will still vote on new policies and guidelines. I fail to see what you mean by saying that.

Nope; if you become staff then devrel/recruiters will be involved. You
are no exception to the rule.

> > Every developer and staff has taken the quiz [...]
> 
> Sorry, but thats not correct (at least to my knowledge). - Back in the good ol' days most of the developers knew each other and knew who was doing what. Taking a quiz became mandatory back in 2003 iirc. Devs who were already aboard did not need to take the quiz.

Those people were already gentoo staff, you aren't right now, so it's
not the same situation.

> > Again, I fail to see why the forum staff deserves an exception to the
> > rules that every other person that is either staff for Gentoo or a
> > developer for Gentoo has to follow.
> 
> Well.. that's right. Rules should be followed.* If it would be up to me everybody of us would take that quiz and we could stop this discussion. But it's not up to me. - It's not that simple.

People managing the forums should take the responsability to make them
take the quiz and become official. Nobody said that being 'the boss' was
going to be easy.

Cheers,
Ferdy

-- 
      \\|// . . .  o  o o  o  O  O   (   Born to be   )
       o o                           (      FREE      )
+--ooO--O--Ooo-----------------------------------------------+
| Fernando José Pereda Garcimartín - http://www.ferdyx.org   |
| Gentoo Linux Developer - http://dev.gentoo.org/~ferdy      |
| [ ferdy AT ferdyx DOT org ] && [ ferdy AT gentoo DOT org ] |
|     20BB BDC3 761A 4781 E6ED  ED0B 0A48 5B0C 60BD 28D4     |
+------------------------------------------------------------+

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Ioannis Aslanidis]

On 6/28/05, Fernando J. Pereda <ferdy@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > > In that regard, you do not get to take care of your own things anymore.
> >
> > We will still recruit new mods/admins and take care of them. We will still moderate and administering the board and the software. We will still vote on new policies and guidelines. I fail to see what you mean by saying that.
> 
> Nope; if you become staff then devrel/recruiters will be involved. You
> are no exception to the rule.

Incorrect. As devrel already stated, this won't change ever. We will
be always the ones to do this.
 
> > > Every developer and staff has taken the quiz [...]
> >
> > Sorry, but thats not correct (at least to my knowledge). - Back in the good ol' days most of the developers knew each other and knew who was doing what. Taking a quiz became mandatory back in 2003 iirc. Devs who were already aboard did not need to take the quiz.
> 
> Those people were already gentoo staff, you aren't right now, so it's
> not the same situation.

And some of us were already doing stuff for Gentoo much before the
quizes became mandatory, so it would be fair that all of us that were
mods/admins before that date would be treated *that* way.


-- 
Ioannis Aslanidis

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Jan Kundrát]

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Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> And some of us were already doing stuff for Gentoo much before the
> quizes became mandatory, so it would be fair that all of us that were
> mods/admins before that date would be treated *that* way.

Is it really so annoying to do one simple quiz?

Cheers,
-jkt

-- 
cd /local/pub && more beer > /dev/mouth

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Ioannis Aslanidis]

On 6/28/05, Jan Kundrát <jkt@flaska.net> wrote:
> > And some of us were already doing stuff for Gentoo much before the
> > quizes became mandatory, so it would be fair that all of us that were
> > mods/admins before that date would be treated *that* way.
> 
> Is it really so annoying to do one simple quiz?

I do not care of doing it. But I feel it's my duty to defend the
interests of all the moderation team. And no, it's _not_ annoying to
*do* the quiz, the annoying thing is to force someone to do it.

-- 
Ioannis Aslanidis

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Jan Kundrát]

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Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> On 6/28/05, Jan Kundrát <jkt@flaska.net> wrote:
> 
>>>And some of us were already doing stuff for Gentoo much before the
>>>quizes became mandatory, so it would be fair that all of us that were
>>>mods/admins before that date would be treated *that* way.
>>
>>Is it really so annoying to do one simple quiz?
> 
> 
> I do not care of doing it. But I feel it's my duty to defend the
> interests of all the moderation team. And no, it's _not_ annoying to
> *do* the quiz, the annoying thing is to force someone to do it.

Nobody is forcing you, the Global Moderators themselves want to join
Gentoo staff and *they* submitted this GLEP. If you want to join some
group of people, you usually have to accept their rules (or try to
change them, of course :-) ).

Cheers,
-jkt

-- 
cd /local/pub && more beer > /dev/mouth


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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Shyam Mani]

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On 06/28/2005 03:34 PM, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:

> I do not care of doing it. But I feel it's my duty to defend the
> interests of all the moderation team. And no, it's _not_ annoying to
> *do* the quiz, the annoying thing is to force someone to do it.

You don't have an option if you want to become a Gentoo Staff/Developer
(how ever you want to see it). If someone wants to be a Global
Moderator, they do the quiz. If they don't do the quiz, they don't
become one/remain one. That's the way it should be. Simple.

- --
Shyam Mani | <fox2mike@gentoo.org>
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Tue, 2005-06-28 at 12:04 +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> > Is it really so annoying to do one simple quiz?
> 
> I do not care of doing it. But I feel it's my duty to defend the
> interests of all the moderation team. And no, it's _not_ annoying to
> *do* the quiz, the annoying thing is to force someone to do it.

Like we do for ALL developers, documentation writers and translators,
and all of our infrastructure staff *except* for the Global Moderators
and Forums Administrators?

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead/QA Manager
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Fernando J. Pereda]

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On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 11:53:17AM +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> > Nope; if you become staff then devrel/recruiters will be involved. You
> > are no exception to the rule.
> 
> Incorrect. As devrel already stated, this won't change ever. We will
> be always the ones to do this.

I still don't see *WHY* you should be different from us. If you want to
manage your recruits then they can't be gentoo staff.

Arch teams have developed a new 'figure', the arch tester. Not official
gentoo staff but somehow involved with us; arch teams manage their own
arch tester recruitment process. If that's the situation you want then
they won't become gentoo staff.

> And some of us were already doing stuff for Gentoo much before the
> quizes became mandatory, so it would be fair that all of us that were
> mods/admins before that date would be treated *that* way.

Still, you weren't gentoo staff. Helping out since then doesn't make you
any different from the recruitment point of view (IMHO).

Cheers,
Ferdy

-- 
      \\|// . . .  o  o o  o  O  O   (   Born to be   )
       o o                           (      FREE      )
+--ooO--O--Ooo-----------------------------------------------+
| Fernando José Pereda Garcimartín - http://www.ferdyx.org   |
| Gentoo Linux Developer - http://dev.gentoo.org/~ferdy      |
| [ ferdy AT ferdyx DOT org ] && [ ferdy AT gentoo DOT org ] |
|     20BB BDC3 761A 4781 E6ED  ED0B 0A48 5B0C 60BD 28D4     |
+------------------------------------------------------------+

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Ioannis Aslanidis]

On 6/28/05, Fernando J. Pereda <ferdy@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 11:53:17AM +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> > > Nope; if you become staff then devrel/recruiters will be involved. You
> > > are no exception to the rule.
> >
> > Incorrect. As devrel already stated, this won't change ever. We will
> > be always the ones to do this.
> 
> I still don't see *WHY* you should be different from us. If you want to
> manage your recruits then they can't be gentoo staff.

One reason could be that we are _not_ going to be called developers but staff.

> Arch teams have developed a new 'figure', the arch tester. Not official
> gentoo staff but somehow involved with us; arch teams manage their own
> arch tester recruitment process. If that's the situation you want then
> they won't become gentoo staff.

Didn't I say that was already agreed with devrel?

> > And some of us were already doing stuff for Gentoo much before the
> > quizes became mandatory, so it would be fair that all of us that were
> > mods/admins before that date would be treated *that* way.
> 
> Still, you weren't gentoo staff. Helping out since then doesn't make you
> any different from the recruitment point of view (IMHO).

Then the problem is we should have been done in that moment, so this
is one more reason in favor of taking old mods to staff with no quiz
stright away.

-- 
Ioannis Aslanidis

<deathwing00[at]gentoo.org> 0xB9B11F4E
<deathwing00[at]forums.gentoo.org> 0xC2539DA3
<aioannis[at]tinet.org> 0xF202D067
<dwcommander[at]users.sourceforge.net>

Hellenic Gentoo GNU/Linux project manager (http://hellenicgentoo.sf.net)
FIRECOPS++ project manager (http://firecops.sf.net)
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Fernando J. Pereda]

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On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 12:19:34PM +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> > I still don't see *WHY* you should be different from us. If you want to
> > manage your recruits then they can't be gentoo staff.
> 
> One reason could be that we are _not_ going to be called developers but staff.

Can anybody explain me the difference between them ?

> > Arch teams have developed a new 'figure', the arch tester. Not official
> > gentoo staff but somehow involved with us; arch teams manage their own
> > arch tester recruitment process. If that's the situation you want then
> > they won't become gentoo staff.
> 
> Didn't I say that was already agreed with devrel?

Do I have to quit saying that I think that's wrong? No thanks. You are 
the only group that will make new devs apart from devrel. I still don't
see why you should deserve a different treatment.

If you want to join us, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE follow our rules. They are
there to be followed if you didn't notice.

> > Still, you weren't gentoo staff. Helping out since then doesn't make you
> > any different from the recruitment point of view (IMHO).
> 
> Then the problem is we should have been done in that moment, so this
> is one more reason in favor of taking old mods to staff with no quiz
> stright away.

I hope you have stronger arguments...

Cheers,
Ferdy 

-- 
      \\|// . . .  o  o o  o  O  O   (   Born to be   )
       o o                           (      FREE      )
+--ooO--O--Ooo-----------------------------------------------+
| Fernando José Pereda Garcimartín - http://www.ferdyx.org   |
| Gentoo Linux Developer - http://dev.gentoo.org/~ferdy      |
| [ ferdy AT ferdyx DOT org ] && [ ferdy AT gentoo DOT org ] |
|     20BB BDC3 761A 4781 E6ED  ED0B 0A48 5B0C 60BD 28D4     |
+------------------------------------------------------------+

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Ioannis Aslanidis]

On 6/28/05, Fernando J. Pereda <ferdy@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 12:19:34PM +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> > > I still don't see *WHY* you should be different from us. If you want to
> > > manage your recruits then they can't be gentoo staff.
> >
> > One reason could be that we are _not_ going to be called developers but staff.
> 
> Can anybody explain me the difference between them ?

Well, you better discuss that with your fellow developers. It was they
who didn't want us to become developers and gave us the title of staff
instead.

> 
> > > Arch teams have developed a new 'figure', the arch tester. Not official
> > > gentoo staff but somehow involved with us; arch teams manage their own
> > > arch tester recruitment process. If that's the situation you want then
> > > they won't become gentoo staff.
> >
> > Didn't I say that was already agreed with devrel?
> 
> Do I have to quit saying that I think that's wrong? No thanks. You are
> the only group that will make new devs apart from devrel.

You are obviously free to state your opinion. But this *maybe* is not
to be discussed with us.

> I still don't
> see why you should deserve a different treatment.

I don't either: 

*> > > Still, you weren't gentoo staff. Helping out since then doesn't make you
*> > > any different from the recruitment point of view (IMHO).


> If you want to join us, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE follow our rules. They are
> there to be followed if you didn't notice.

If you didn't notice, as Christian already state before, we ARE
official, we are NOT joining you. We are simply getting our DESERVED
recognition.

> 
> > > Still, you weren't gentoo staff. Helping out since then doesn't make you
> > > any different from the recruitment point of view (IMHO).
> >
> > Then the problem is we should have been done in that moment, so this
> > is one more reason in favor of taking old mods to staff with no quiz
> > stright away.
> 
> I hope you have stronger arguments...

IMHO that argument is more than enough.

-- 
Ioannis Aslanidis

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Shyam Mani]

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On 06/28/2005 04:05 PM, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:

> Well, you better discuss that with your fellow developers. It was they
> who didn't want us to become developers and gave us the title of staff
> instead.

The only difference I see b/w "Staff" and "Developers" is that you might
not have access to CVS. You'll have an email ID and an account on
dev.g.o, just like the rest of us (I'm assuming here). So what/where is
the big deal about it?

- --
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Ioannis Aslanidis]

On 6/28/05, Shyam Mani <fox2mike@gentoo.org> wrote:
> The only difference I see b/w "Staff" and "Developers" is that you might
> not have access to CVS. You'll have an email ID and an account on
> dev.g.o, just like the rest of us (I'm assuming here). So what/where is
> the big deal about it?

Maybe just that Developer sounds prettier than Staff. The rest is
exactly as you stated. Now let me ask developers this:

Does it really matter you if we are called developers instead of staff?

-- 
Ioannis Aslanidis

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<deathwing00[at]forums.gentoo.org> 0xC2539DA3
<aioannis[at]tinet.org> 0xF202D067
<dwcommander[at]users.sourceforge.net>

Hellenic Gentoo GNU/Linux project manager (http://hellenicgentoo.sf.net)
FIRECOPS++ project manager (http://firecops.sf.net)
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò]

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On Tuesday 28 June 2005 12:57, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> Does it really matter you if we are called developers instead of staff?
No, not for me.

-- 
Diego "Flameeyes" Pettenò
Gentoo Developer - http://dev.gentoo.org/~flameeyes/
(Gentoo/FreeBSD, Video, Gentoo/AMD64, Sound, PAM)

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Shyam Mani]

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On 06/28/2005 04:27 PM, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:

> Does it really matter you if we are called developers instead of staff?

*I* don't have an issue with that. I care more about what I'm able to do
for the community rather than bother with what I'm going to be called.
Seriously.


- --
Shyam Mani | <fox2mike@gentoo.org>
docs-team  | http://gdp.gentoo.org
GPG key    | 0xFDD0E345
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Simon Stelling]

Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> Maybe just that Developer sounds prettier than Staff. The rest is
> exactly as you stated. Now let me ask developers this:
> 
> Does it really matter you if we are called developers instead of staff?

No, why should anybody bother?

-- 
Simon Stelling
Gentoo/AMD64 Operational Co-Lead
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Jon Portnoy]

On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 12:57:46PM +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> On 6/28/05, Shyam Mani <fox2mike@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > The only difference I see b/w "Staff" and "Developers" is that you might
> > not have access to CVS. You'll have an email ID and an account on
> > dev.g.o, just like the rest of us (I'm assuming here). So what/where is
> > the big deal about it?
> 
> Maybe just that Developer sounds prettier than Staff. The rest is
> exactly as you stated. Now let me ask developers this:
> 
> Does it really matter you if we are called developers instead of staff?
> 

Yes. You don't develop anything

-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Olivier Crete]

On Tue, 2005-28-06 at 07:20 -0400, Jon Portnoy wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 12:57:46PM +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> > On 6/28/05, Shyam Mani <fox2mike@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > > The only difference I see b/w "Staff" and "Developers" is that you might
> > > not have access to CVS. You'll have an email ID and an account on
> > > dev.g.o, just like the rest of us (I'm assuming here). So what/where is
> > > the big deal about it?
> > 
> > Maybe just that Developer sounds prettier than Staff. The rest is
> > exactly as you stated. Now let me ask developers this:
> > 
> > Does it really matter you if we are called developers instead of staff?
> > 
> 
> Yes. You don't develop anything

Neither do infra devs or doc devs...

-- 
Olivier Crête
tester@gentoo.org
Gentoo Developer
x86 Security Liaison


-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Jan Kundrát]

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Olivier Crete wrote:
>>Yes. You don't develop anything
> 
> 
> Neither do infra devs or doc devs...

IMHO GDP members develop documentation :-). Just let's call them all
"developers"...

-jkt

-- 
cd /local/pub && more beer > /dev/mouth

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Christian Hartmann]

Jan Kundrát wrote:
> IMHO GDP members develop documentation :-). Just let's call them all
> "developers"...

and the forums monkeys develop solutions for the users.. develop faqs..
develop a community..

But I'm fine with the staff thingy. Please reread the GLEP and have a
look at the changes we made.

-- 
Kind regards,
Christian Hartmann

Broicher Str. 34
46049 Oberhausen
Germany

Mobile: +49 0173 20 71 871

PGP Key:
http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2154E5EE692A4865
Key fingerprint = 4544 EC0C BAE4 216F 5981  7F95 2154 E5EE 692A 4865
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[John Mylchreest]

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On Tue, 2005-06-28 at 17:49 -0400, Olivier Crete wrote:
> On Tue, 2005-28-06 at 07:20 -0400, Jon Portnoy wrote:
> > On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 12:57:46PM +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> > > On 6/28/05, Shyam Mani <fox2mike@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > > 
> > > Does it really matter you if we are called developers instead of staff?
> > > 
> > 
> > Yes. You don't develop anything
> 
> Neither do infra devs or doc devs...

I'd beg to differ there actually.
Infra developers are more often than not package maintainers etc as
well, and have cvs rights. if they don't have cvs rights, they look
after core infrastructure which is vital to Gentoo's survival.

Documentation devs, develop rather large and quite excellent online (and
offline) documentation.

Not to take away from the importance (or lack of depending on view) of
moderating the forums, but they are not as critical as official
literature and infrastructure, and also do not necessarily require in
depth knowledge of the technical aspects of any post.

Regardless, I would prefer the term "Staff."

Also, I don't really see the need in having shell access to the
developer boxes. what use would this be?

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Christian Hartmann]

John Mylchreest wrote:
> Infra developers are more often than not package maintainers etc as
> well, and have cvs rights. if they don't have cvs rights, they look
> after core infrastructure which is vital to Gentoo's survival.

Forums built a community.
Quote: '"Best support" went to the Gentoo Forums'

http://www.gentoo.org/news/en/gwn/20050314-newsletter.xml#doc_chap4

> Not to take away from the importance (or lack of depending on view) of
> moderating the forums, but they are not as critical as official
> literature and infrastructure, and also do not necessarily require in
> depth knowledge of the technical aspects of any post.

So I guess it doesn't matter to you if we would advise to use
-0mg-optimized flags rather then the ones that (core-)developers recommend?

> Regardless, I would prefer the term "Staff."

Sure. As I stated before I'd be fine with that.

> Also, I don't really see the need in having shell access to the
> developer boxes. what use would this be?

To host patches, docs etc. Just like every other devs/staff guy does
atm. (Sure. toucan isn't meant to be a download server and we're aware
of this fact.)

-- 
Kind regards,
Christian Hartmann

Broicher Str. 34
46049 Oberhausen
Germany

Mobile: +49 0173 20 71 871

PGP Key:
http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2154E5EE692A4865
Key fingerprint = 4544 EC0C BAE4 216F 5981  7F95 2154 E5EE 692A 4865
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Lance Albertson]

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On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 00:20 +0200, Christian Hartmann wrote:

> To host patches, docs etc. Just like every other devs/staff guy does
> atm. (Sure. toucan isn't meant to be a download server and we're aware
> of this fact.)

Patches to our phpbb should only fall under 2-3 people and means
moderators != forum admins. And those folks should be closely tied to
the infra folks. So please tell me again what patches/docs they would
have as moderators? My vote would be no shell access to moderators, I
simply don't see the point of adding that into our infra. I do however
see the need for having an alias for email contact. If they want to do
more than moderate, thats their will and can take the ebuild quiz for
that or can discuss that with recruiters.

Cheers,

-- 
Lance Albertson <ramereth@gentoo.org>
Gentoo Infrastructure | Operations Manager

---
GPG Public Key:  <http://www.ramereth.net/lance.asc>
Key fingerprint: 0423 92F3 544A 1282 5AB1  4D07 416F A15D 27F4 B742

ramereth/irc.freenode.net

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Lance Albertson]

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On Tue, 2005-06-28 at 17:34 -0500, Lance Albertson wrote:
> On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 00:20 +0200, Christian Hartmann wrote:
> 
> > To host patches, docs etc. Just like every other devs/staff guy does
> > atm. (Sure. toucan isn't meant to be a download server and we're aware
> > of this fact.)
> 
> Patches to our phpbb should only fall under 2-3 people and means
> moderators != forum admins. And those folks should be closely tied to
> the infra folks. So please tell me again what patches/docs they would
> have as moderators? My vote would be no shell access to moderators, I
> simply don't see the point of adding that into our infra. I do however
> see the need for having an alias for email contact. If they want to do
> more than moderate, thats their will and can take the ebuild quiz for
> that or can discuss that with recruiters.

Ok, after talking with a few folks I want to retract my comment about no
shell access. I didn't think about the other groups (docs) that already
have shell access and retain a simliar status as forum mods do in
Gentoo. I'm just getting ansty about all these new people we're bringing
on and the security behind it. Thats my main concern at this point, not
whether your work is more or less than a regular developer. I just
wanted to make that point before I had a flamewar directed at me :)

Cheers,

-- 
Lance Albertson <ramereth@gentoo.org>
Gentoo Infrastructure | Operations Manager

---
GPG Public Key:  <http://www.ramereth.net/lance.asc>
Key fingerprint: 0423 92F3 544A 1282 5AB1  4D07 416F A15D 27F4 B742

ramereth/irc.freenode.net

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[gentoo-dev] Re: GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Duncan]

Lance Albertson posted <1120000451.26017.7.camel@pursuit>, excerpted
below,  on Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:14:11 -0500:

> Ok, after talking with a few folks I want to retract my comment about no
> shell access. I didn't think about the other groups (docs) that already
> have shell access and retain a simliar status as forum mods do in
> Gentoo. I'm just getting ansty about all these new people we're bringing
> on and the security behind it. Thats my main concern at this point, not
> whether your work is more or less than a regular developer. I just
> wanted to make that point before I had a flamewar directed at me :)

OK, I'm with you on the security thing (being one that would prefer a
USE=clientonly flag, remember, tho I understand the reasons behind not
doing it), but I DO know there's quite the occasional use for someplace to
host scripts, patchlets, and sample config files for reference from
forums/news/lists/irc, that I've personally found useful, that others
would like to see as well.

One particular example is my xorg.conf file, which I seem to get
requests for from time to time, when I mention that I have xorg running
xinerama on a dual-out Radeon 9200SE.  It seems many have trouble getting
that to work, and an annotated working config can help tremendously.  I've
been considering doing it up right and putting it on my web page.  Sure, I
can put it on my ISP's page, but folks do change ISPs from time to time,
and for forum mods that are already staff, having a "staffspace" available
to make such things a bit more publicly available, could be /quite/ useful.

The form of the URLs such resources get make it quite clear that while
hosted on a gentoo server, they are in personal devspace/staffspace on
that server, so there should be little chance of confusion with "official"
packages, particularly if there's a policy in place (I haven't seen one
but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist) to clearly mark any HTML formatted
anchor tags with non-obfuscated descriptions and URLs.  (The forum
software may or may not make obfuscated URLs impossible, I don't know.)

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman in
http://www.linuxdevcenter.com/pub/a/linux/2004/12/22/rms_interview.html


-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Andrea Barisani]

On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 05:45:26PM -0700, Duncan wrote:
> Lance Albertson posted <1120000451.26017.7.camel@pursuit>, excerpted
> below,  on Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:14:11 -0500:
> 
> > Ok, after talking with a few folks I want to retract my comment about no
> > shell access. I didn't think about the other groups (docs) that already
> > have shell access and retain a simliar status as forum mods do in
> > Gentoo. I'm just getting ansty about all these new people we're bringing
> > on and the security behind it. Thats my main concern at this point, not
> > whether your work is more or less than a regular developer. I just
> > wanted to make that point before I had a flamewar directed at me :)
> 
> OK, I'm with you on the security thing (being one that would prefer a
> USE=clientonly flag, remember, tho I understand the reasons behind not
> doing it), but I DO know there's quite the occasional use for someplace to
> host scripts, patchlets, and sample config files for reference from
> forums/news/lists/irc, that I've personally found useful, that others
> would like to see as well.

Would devwiki (or something like that) access for hosting files be acceptable? 
Seriously security_wise and admin_wise I don't see shell access useful neither 
appropriate imho.

Btw how many forums moderators are we talking about?

Cheers

-- 
Andrea Barisani <lcars@gentoo.org>                            .*.
Gentoo Linux Infrastructure Developer                          V
                                                             (   )
GPG-Key 0x864C9B9E http://dev.gentoo.org/~lcars/pubkey.asc   (   )
    0A76 074A 02CD E989 CE7F AC3F DA47 578E 864C 9B9E        ^^_^^
      "Pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitate"
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Tue, 2005-06-28 at 17:45 -0700, Duncan wrote:
> OK, I'm with you on the security thing (being one that would prefer a
> USE=clientonly flag, remember, tho I understand the reasons behind not
> doing it), but I DO know there's quite the occasional use for someplace to
> host scripts, patchlets, and sample config files for reference from
> forums/news/lists/irc, that I've personally found useful, that others
> would like to see as well.

Honestly, we need a *mirrored and distributed* location for such things.
It could easily be accessible from the shell box, but anything that
resides on /home on toucan can not be considered safe.  While the
infrastructure staff does their best to ensure the data there, it is
*our* responsibility to keep our own backups of everything there.

In fact, there is GLEP15, which deals with this, specifically.

> One particular example is my xorg.conf file, which I seem to get
> requests for from time to time, when I mention that I have xorg running
> xinerama on a dual-out Radeon 9200SE.  It seems many have trouble getting
> that to work, and an annotated working config can help tremendously.  I've
> been considering doing it up right and putting it on my web page.  Sure, I
> can put it on my ISP's page, but folks do change ISPs from time to time,
> and for forum mods that are already staff, having a "staffspace" available
> to make such things a bit more publicly available, could be /quite/ useful.

Again, toucan is *not* this place, as has been said many times by
infrastructure.  Anything on dev.gentoo.org should be considered
transitive, as it can disappear at any time.  A more permanent solution
to this should be done, rather than relying on something that we have
been told time and time again that we should *not* rely on.

This being said, I'm pretty guilty of this myself, with one minor
exception.  I keep my own backups.  :P

> The form of the URLs such resources get make it quite clear that while
> hosted on a gentoo server, they are in personal devspace/staffspace on
> that server, so there should be little chance of confusion with "official"
> packages, particularly if there's a policy in place (I haven't seen one
> but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist) to clearly mark any HTML formatted
> anchor tags with non-obfuscated descriptions and URLs.  (The forum
> software may or may not make obfuscated URLs impossible, I don't know.)

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead/QA Manager
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Lars Weiler]

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* Lance Albertson <ramereth@gentoo.org> [05/06/28 18:14 -0500]:
> I'm just getting ansty about all these new people we're bringing

"New people"?  You're joking, aren't you?  Some of them are
moderators for even a longer time than you are a Gentoo Dev.

The problem just is, that the Forums have been forgotten at
the time when our current (or even better now it's the old)
metastructure was built up.  The forum moderators now just
take Gentoo's official way to add the forums and the folks
behind it as a usual TLP or SLP (probably to PR).  And I'm
really ashamed that many Developers think they are just some
beggars for an @gentoo.org- and shell-account.

Did you really ever honoured their work?  Think about the
Forums will go down for a week.  I don't want to count the
questions a lot of developers will receive, which were
usually answered in the forums instead.  Or political
discussions about Gentoo, which are hold in the forums and
where the moderators slurp out the essence and hand it over
to the related devs.

Yes, we need the forums, we need the moderators, and we also
need that the moderators will be involved into Gentoo
completely, so that they know our rare internals and are
allowed to take part on elections about the future of the
project.

Please keep in mind what has been said before: This thread
ain't be a flamefest.  This is the official and transparent
way in how to integrate our forums as an official Gentoo
project.

Regards, Lars

-- 
Lars Weiler  <pylon@gentoo.org>  +49-171-1963258
Gentoo Linux PowerPC    : Developer and Release Engineer
Gentoo Infrastructure   : CVS Administrator
Gentoo Foundation       : Trustee

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Lance Albertson]

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On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 03:32 +0200, Lars Weiler wrote:
> * Lance Albertson <ramereth@gentoo.org> [05/06/28 18:14 -0500]:
> > I'm just getting ansty about all these new people we're bringing
> 
> "New people"?  You're joking, aren't you?  Some of them are
> moderators for even a longer time than you are a Gentoo Dev.

I wasn't directing that comment at the forum mods. I rarely use the
forums anymore because of how busy I am, but I know that all the mods
work hard (and probably harder than some of our 'official' devs). I was
mainly talking about the rate of new people we've been bringing on in
the past year. Most have been great, but I just get concerned when
numbers become more important than quality (Not saying thats the case
here, its just something to watch out for).

-- 
Lance Albertson <ramereth@gentoo.org>
Gentoo Infrastructure | Operations Manager

---
GPG Public Key:  <http://www.ramereth.net/lance.asc>
Key fingerprint: 0423 92F3 544A 1282 5AB1  4D07 416F A15D 27F4 B742

ramereth/irc.freenode.net

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Marius Mauch]

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On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:34:14 -0500
Lance Albertson <ramereth@gentoo.org> wrote:

> On Wed, 2005-06-29 at 00:20 +0200, Christian Hartmann wrote:
> 
> > To host patches, docs etc. Just like every other devs/staff guy does
> > atm. (Sure. toucan isn't meant to be a download server and we're
> > aware of this fact.)
> 
> Patches to our phpbb should only fall under 2-3 people and means
> moderators != forum admins. And those folks should be closely tied to
> the infra folks. So please tell me again what patches/docs they would
> have as moderators? My vote would be no shell access to moderators, I
> simply don't see the point of adding that into our infra. I do however
> see the need for having an alias for email contact. If they want to do
> more than moderate, thats their will and can take the ebuild quiz for
> that or can discuss that with recruiters.

Well, as long as we use toucan for voting they need shell access (not
now, but when they become foundation members in a year).

Marius

-- 
Public Key at http://www.genone.de/info/gpg-key.pub

In the beginning, there was nothing. And God said, 'Let there be
Light.' And there was still nothing, but you could see a bit better.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Tue, 2005-06-28 at 12:57 +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> Maybe just that Developer sounds prettier than Staff. The rest is
> exactly as you stated. Now let me ask developers this:
> 
> Does it really matter you if we are called developers instead of staff?

Honestly, we call everyone with an @gentoo.org address a developer,
whether they are a "developer" (CVS access) or not.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead/QA Manager
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Haas Wernfried]

On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 10:34:35AM -0400, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> Honestly, we call everyone with an @gentoo.org address a developer,
> whether they are a "developer" (CVS access) or not.

There have been heavy objections against that when we presented the
first draft of the glep using the term developer, even though we
stated not needing CVS access - so we chose the term staff.
Tbh, i don't care at all if it's called staff or developer, just make
it an official member.

About the status of the forums and being official or not:
Remember the mess with stats.gentoo.org? The people working on it
wanted to use this domain and therefor it was suggested that they
needed to be developers. Please don't get me wrong and this is
definitely no attemt to revive that discussion, but if
stats.gentoo.org is official and needs official members, the forums
should be considered and have official members, too (called staff
or developers or forums-monkeys).

Anyway, the intention of the GLEP is to solve this problem and not to
turn gentoo-dev into a flamefest. ;-)

cheers,
	Wernfried

-- 
Fppmpppffpppmpfpffmffmppmpm Mfpmmmmmmfmm
fpp.mfpmmmmmmfmm@fpfppffpmmpppff.mfpfmpfmf.fmpfmffppmffmppppp.mmmmmf.mmmfmp
mfpfmpfmppfm://fpfppffpmmpppff.ppmfmfmpm.mmmfmp/~mmmppmpppmpppppmffppfppp/
http://www.namesuppressed.com/kenny/
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Jon Portnoy]

On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 12:35:11PM +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> On 6/28/05, Fernando J. Pereda <ferdy@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 12:19:34PM +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> > > > I still don't see *WHY* you should be different from us. If you want to
> > > > manage your recruits then they can't be gentoo staff.
> > >
> > > One reason could be that we are _not_ going to be called developers but staff.
> > 
> > Can anybody explain me the difference between them ?
> 
> Well, you better discuss that with your fellow developers. It was they
> who didn't want us to become developers and gave us the title of staff
> instead.

Developers have CVS access; take the ebuild quiz and you're a developer, 
take the staff quiz (the eight-question quiz some mods apparently don't 
like for whatever bizarre reason...) and you're staff

Overall I'd say I think the best course of action is for the forum 
admins & whatever high-level executive decision making moderators to 
become staff and for the forums to become a valid (sub)project, then 
they can add their other folks as needed. I don't see any need for the 
'all or nothing' approach. Frankly I don't see any harm in people not 
being totally clear on which mods are "staff" and which aren't (what 
practical difference does it make?)

-- 
Jon Portnoy
avenj/irc.freenode.net
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Ioannis Aslanidis]

On 6/28/05, Jon Portnoy <avenj@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Developers have CVS access; take the ebuild quiz and you're a developer,
> take the staff quiz (the eight-question quiz some mods apparently don't
> like for whatever bizarre reason...) and you're staff

Does that mean that we could take the ebuild quiz too (if we wanted to)?

> Overall I'd say I think the best course of action is for the forum
> admins & whatever high-level executive decision making moderators to
> become staff and for the forums to become a valid (sub)project, then
> they can add their other folks as needed. I don't see any need for the
> 'all or nothing' approach. Frankly I don't see any harm in people not
> being totally clear on which mods are "staff" and which aren't (what
> practical difference does it make?)

Agreed.

-- 
Ioannis Aslanidis

<deathwing00[at]gentoo.org> 0xB9B11F4E
<deathwing00[at]forums.gentoo.org> 0xC2539DA3
<aioannis[at]tinet.org> 0xF202D067
<dwcommander[at]users.sourceforge.net>

Hellenic Gentoo GNU/Linux project manager (http://hellenicgentoo.sf.net)
FIRECOPS++ project manager (http://firecops.sf.net)
Digger Realoaded (http://digger-reloaded.sf.net)
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Fernando J. Pereda]

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On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 01:01:57PM +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> On 6/28/05, Jon Portnoy <avenj@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > Developers have CVS access; take the ebuild quiz and you're a developer,
> > take the staff quiz (the eight-question quiz some mods apparently don't
> > like for whatever bizarre reason...) and you're staff
> 
> Does that mean that we could take the ebuild quiz too (if we wanted to)?

Why would you want to ? Everybody can take the ebuild quiz, if they have
something to do in the tree of course.

Cheers,
Ferdy

-- 
      \\|// . . .  o  o o  o  O  O   (   Born to be   )
       o o                           (      FREE      )
+--ooO--O--Ooo-----------------------------------------------+
| Fernando José Pereda Garcimartín - http://www.ferdyx.org   |
| Gentoo Linux Developer - http://dev.gentoo.org/~ferdy      |
| [ ferdy AT ferdyx DOT org ] && [ ferdy AT gentoo DOT org ] |
|     20BB BDC3 761A 4781 E6ED  ED0B 0A48 5B0C 60BD 28D4     |
+------------------------------------------------------------+

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Shyam Mani]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 06/28/2005 04:31 PM, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> On 6/28/05, Jon Portnoy <avenj@gentoo.org> wrote:
> 
>>Developers have CVS access; take the ebuild quiz and you're a developer,
>>take the staff quiz (the eight-question quiz some mods apparently don't
>>like for whatever bizarre reason...) and you're staff
> 
> Does that mean that we could take the ebuild quiz too (if we wanted to)?

What's stopping you from doing so? If you've done enough work with
ebuilds and want to help out, surely you'll be able to take the quiz and
work with ebuilds.

- --
Shyam Mani | <fox2mike@gentoo.org>
docs-team  | http://gdp.gentoo.org
GPG key    | 0xFDD0E345
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Jon Portnoy]

On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 01:01:57PM +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> On 6/28/05, Jon Portnoy <avenj@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > Developers have CVS access; take the ebuild quiz and you're a developer,
> > take the staff quiz (the eight-question quiz some mods apparently don't
> > like for whatever bizarre reason...) and you're staff
> 
> Does that mean that we could take the ebuild quiz too (if we wanted to)?

Find a mentor to sponsor you for the process and sure

-- 
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avenj/irc.freenode.net
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Tue, 2005-06-28 at 12:35 +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> > Can anybody explain me the difference between them ?
> 
> Well, you better discuss that with your fellow developers. It was they
> who didn't want us to become developers and gave us the title of staff
> instead.

You really don't give up on these semantics, do you?

All of our infrastructure "developers" whom have not taken the ebuild
quiz are actually "staff".  The *only* distinction between the two is
CVS access.  Please quit trying to make this out to be some form of "us
versus them" argument when there is none.  If *any* of the moderators,
or even forums members, were to take the ebuild quiz and follow the
recruitment process, then they would become "developers" for Gentoo.  It
is as simple as that.

> > > Didn't I say that was already agreed with devrel?
> > 
> > Do I have to quit saying that I think that's wrong? No thanks. You are
> > the only group that will make new devs apart from devrel.
> 
> You are obviously free to state your opinion. But this *maybe* is not
> to be discussed with us.

Discussed with you that you need to follow the same rules as all of the
other Gentoo members?

> If you didn't notice, as Christian already state before, we ARE
> official, we are NOT joining you. We are simply getting our DESERVED
> recognition.

Really?  Where is your account on toucan?  How about your name on the
roll call?

I don't mean to sound rude, but while you have always been a part of
Gentoo, youw ere not official, otherwise we would not be having this
conversation, at all.

> IMHO that argument is more than enough.

However, it is not to some of us.  Perhaps rather than taking such a
stubborn, argumentative stance, you would give positive examples or
arguments with some merit?

At this point, you wouldn't have my vote.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead/QA Manager
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Ioannis Aslanidis]

On 6/28/05, Chris Gianelloni <wolf31o2@gentoo.org> wrote:
...

Erm... either your emails came late or you didn't read my last email.
The horse is dead, stop beating it.

Ioannis wrote:

>*****
>My most sincere excuses if I trolled or annoyed anyone. It was not
>intentional.
>*****


-- 
Ioannis Aslanidis

<deathwing00[at]gentoo.org> 0xB9B11F4E
<deathwing00[at]forums.gentoo.org> 0xC2539DA3
<aioannis[at]tinet.org> 0xF202D067
<dwcommander[at]users.sourceforge.net>

Hellenic Gentoo GNU/Linux project manager (http://hellenicgentoo.sf.net)
FIRECOPS++ project manager (http://firecops.sf.net)
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Jon Portnoy]

On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 12:28:20PM +0200, Fernando J. Pereda wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 12:19:34PM +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> > > I still don't see *WHY* you should be different from us. If you want to
> > > manage your recruits then they can't be gentoo staff.
> > 
> > One reason could be that we are _not_ going to be called developers but staff.
> 
> Can anybody explain me the difference between them ?
> 
> > > Arch teams have developed a new 'figure', the arch tester. Not official
> > > gentoo staff but somehow involved with us; arch teams manage their own
> > > arch tester recruitment process. If that's the situation you want then
> > > they won't become gentoo staff.
> > 
> > Didn't I say that was already agreed with devrel?
> 
> Do I have to quit saying that I think that's wrong? No thanks. You are 
> the only group that will make new devs apart from devrel. I still don't
> see why you should deserve a different treatment.
> 


AFAIK they still plan to go through devrel, just add a forums person to 
the recruiters team so existing recruiters aren't flooded with new staff 
all of a sudden


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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Ioannis Aslanidis]

On 6/28/05, Jon Portnoy <avenj@gentoo.org> wrote:
> AFAIK they still plan to go through devrel, just add a forums person to
> the recruiters team so existing recruiters aren't flooded with new staff
> all of a sudden

And we already have a candidate I presume :)

-- 
Ioannis Aslanidis

<deathwing00[at]gentoo.org> 0xB9B11F4E
<deathwing00[at]forums.gentoo.org> 0xC2539DA3
<aioannis[at]tinet.org> 0xF202D067
<dwcommander[at]users.sourceforge.net>

Hellenic Gentoo GNU/Linux project manager (http://hellenicgentoo.sf.net)
FIRECOPS++ project manager (http://firecops.sf.net)
Digger Realoaded (http://digger-reloaded.sf.net)
Gentoo Forums Global Moderator (http://forums.gentoo.org)

Computer Engineering student at Universitat Rovira i Virgili

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò]

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On Tuesday 28 June 2005 12:48, Jon Portnoy wrote:
> AFAIK they still plan to go through devrel, just add a forums person to
> the recruiters team so existing recruiters aren't flooded with new staff
> all of a sudden
This is fair and right enough. But to do that, I'm still thinking (like 
others) that it's an all-or-nothing: or they take the quiz or they don't be 
official; no official, no global moderation (if the most of the global 
moderators want to be official staff and the project to be an official 
recognized one).

For local mods, like for AT, they can do it on their own, imho.

-- 
Diego "Flameeyes" Pettenò
Gentoo Developer - http://dev.gentoo.org/~flameeyes/
(Gentoo/FreeBSD, Video, Gentoo/AMD64, Sound, PAM)

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Jon Portnoy]

On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 01:00:21PM +0200, Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò wrote:
> On Tuesday 28 June 2005 12:48, Jon Portnoy wrote:
> > AFAIK they still plan to go through devrel, just add a forums person to
> > the recruiters team so existing recruiters aren't flooded with new staff
> > all of a sudden
> This is fair and right enough. But to do that, I'm still thinking (like 
> others) that it's an all-or-nothing: or they take the quiz or they don't be 
> official; no official, no global moderation (if the most of the global 
> moderators want to be official staff and the project to be an official 
> recognized one).
> 

Why does it matter? Should this policy also apply to 'unofficial' bug 
wranglers who did not take the staff quiz, or is Bugzilla not an 
official part of Gentoo?

-- 
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avenj/irc.freenode.net

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò]

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On Tuesday 28 June 2005 13:19, Jon Portnoy wrote:
> Why does it matter? Should this policy also apply to 'unofficial' bug
> wranglers who did not take the staff quiz, or is Bugzilla not an
> official part of Gentoo?
They have limited privileges, they shouldn't touch out of their competence, so 
they are like ATs and local moderators.
But to have the competence to change all the bugs, you need to be official, 
don't you?

-- 
Diego "Flameeyes" Pettenò
Gentoo Developer - http://dev.gentoo.org/~flameeyes/
(Gentoo/FreeBSD, Video, Gentoo/AMD64, Sound, PAM)

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Jon Portnoy]

On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 06:48:51AM -0400, Jon Portnoy wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 12:28:20PM +0200, Fernando J. Pereda wrote:
> > On Tue, Jun 28, 2005 at 12:19:34PM +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> > > > I still don't see *WHY* you should be different from us. If you want to
> > > > manage your recruits then they can't be gentoo staff.
> > > 
> > > One reason could be that we are _not_ going to be called developers but staff.
> > 
> > Can anybody explain me the difference between them ?
> > 
> > > > Arch teams have developed a new 'figure', the arch tester. Not official
> > > > gentoo staff but somehow involved with us; arch teams manage their own
> > > > arch tester recruitment process. If that's the situation you want then
> > > > they won't become gentoo staff.
> > > 
> > > Didn't I say that was already agreed with devrel?
> > 
> > Do I have to quit saying that I think that's wrong? No thanks. You are 
> > the only group that will make new devs apart from devrel. I still don't
> > see why you should deserve a different treatment.
> > 
> 
> 
> AFAIK they still plan to go through devrel, just add a forums person to 
> the recruiters team so existing recruiters aren't flooded with new staff 
> all of a sudden

OK, I take that back, plans were dropped for a forums-specific recruiter 
and instead it'd all go through the existing recruiters

Either way, my point stands 8)

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Tue, 2005-06-28 at 12:19 +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> > I still don't see *WHY* you should be different from us. If you want to
> > manage your recruits then they can't be gentoo staff.
> 
> One reason could be that we are _not_ going to be called developers but staff.

Like our infrastructure staff?

Hey, didn't you just read that lcars, who has been around *forever* just
took the developer quiz so he could get access to the portage tree to
maintain sendmail.  Well, I mean, he's been around for so long,
shouldn't he have just been allowed to completely side-step the
recruitment process that is in place?

> > Arch teams have developed a new 'figure', the arch tester. Not official
> > gentoo staff but somehow involved with us; arch teams manage their own
> > arch tester recruitment process. If that's the situation you want then
> > they won't become gentoo staff.
> 
> Didn't I say that was already agreed with devrel?

I don't think anyone has disagreed that you should be in complete
control over whom you recruit as forum-specific moderators.  It is only
when they wish to "move up" to a global moderator or administrator
position that they should be required to complete the official
recruitment process.

> > > And some of us were already doing stuff for Gentoo much before the
> > > quizes became mandatory, so it would be fair that all of us that were
> > > mods/admins before that date would be treated *that* way.
> > 
> > Still, you weren't gentoo staff. Helping out since then doesn't make you
> > any different from the recruitment point of view (IMHO).
> 
> Then the problem is we should have been done in that moment, so this
> is one more reason in favor of taking old mods to staff with no quiz
> stright away.

Again I have to ask.  Are you even reading what people are commenting or
are you just spouting this same thing over and over.

You never were staff.  You never asked to be.  The developers that were
here before the quiz was established were already developers.  You had
no "official" status.  You cannot make a comparison without completely
throwing logic out the window.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead/QA Manager
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Tue, 2005-06-28 at 11:53 +0200, Ioannis Aslanidis wrote:
> And some of us were already doing stuff for Gentoo much before the
> quizes became mandatory, so it would be fair that all of us that were
> mods/admins before that date would be treated *that* way.

You were never staff before.

I contributed ebuilds to Gentoo before I became a developer.  That
doesn't mean I was automatically a developer before taking the quiz.

It doesn't matter if you contributed directly to Daniel the day he
started the stinking distribution.  If you were never a "memeber", then
how can you possibly ask to be grandfathered in as one?

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead/QA Manager
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[christian.hartmann]

Lance Albertson:
> > I'm just getting ansty about all these new people we're bringing
> > on and the security behind it. Thats my main concern at this point, not
> > whether your work is more or less than a regular developer.

Andrea Barisani:
> Seriously security_wise and admin_wise I don't see shell access useful neither 
> appropriate imho.
> Btw how many forums moderators are we talking about?

I know what you're talking about. I usually don't like to give ppl shell access to boxes I'm in charge of. I'm kinda paranoid on this one. ;)
But it's just about 10 more accounts. Knowing that toucan and all the other infrastructure servers are pretty locked down and knowing that most of us are really aware of security (keeping your ssh-keys in a secure place; use stong passwords; lock down boxes; don't run weird scripts on servers, etc.) I don't see a problem here. We are very careful about whom to give the permissions to moderate the forum. Before granting them access to moderate (as in moving, deleting, editing etc) the forum we have a close look at the ppl so that we can make sure they don't do something nasty with their permissions.

If anybody does something nasty on toucan just lock his/her account. - But that should be a rule for everyone having shell access.

> OK, I'm with you on the security thing (being one that would prefer a
> USE=clientonly flag, remember, tho I understand the reasons behind not
> doing it), but I DO know there's quite the occasional use for someplace to
> host scripts, patchlets, and sample config files for reference from
> forums/news/lists/irc, that I've personally found useful, that others
> would like to see as well.

That is what I had in mind. Hosting sample configuration files etc.

Andrea Barisani:
> Would devwiki (or something like that) access for hosting files be acceptable? 

It's not yet made public, is it? I don't really care about having shell access on toucan. I usually prefer hosting stuff on my server so that I've got it all in one place. All I'd like to bring up is that I'd like to have a real mailbox rather than just a mail forwarder.

> Btw how many forums moderators are we talking about?
~10

Thanks for your feedback btw,
Christian Hartmann (ian!)

ps: webmailers suck ;)


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[gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Haas Wernfried]

Hi,
With reference to the recent thread about this GLEP's draft [1]
we're resurrecting the discussion and would like keep you updated
on the latest changes:
1) The term developer has been dropped and replaced by staff. ;-)
2) The GLEP is now listed on the GLEP page as GLEP 38 [2] as an
official GLEP.
3) The moderators guide is available (Curtis already posted that to
the list, just a reminder to have a look at it as well). [3]

Now would be a great time for everyone to read it and give us some
feedback. 

[1] http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/28985
[2] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/glep/glep-0038.html
[3] http://curtis119.no-ip.org/forum-guide.xml


-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Marius Mauch]

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On Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:09:41 +0200
Haas Wernfried <w.haas@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at> wrote:

> Hi,
> With reference to the recent thread about this GLEP's draft [1]
> we're resurrecting the discussion and would like keep you updated
> on the latest changes:
> 1) The term developer has been dropped and replaced by staff. ;-)
> 2) The GLEP is now listed on the GLEP page as GLEP 38 [2] as an
> official GLEP.
> 3) The moderators guide is available (Curtis already posted that to
> the list, just a reminder to have a look at it as well). [3]
> 
> Now would be a great time for everyone to read it and give us some
> feedback. 

ok, looks like the current hot topic is that not all global moderators/
site admins want/can become staff members for unspecified reasons.

(the GLEP says that everyone wanting to become a staff member has to
take the quiz, so I take that as a given)

Currently I'd be interested if there are any solid numbers how many
global moderators/admins want/don't want to get staff status? 

Marius

PS: I'm ignoring the national forum moderator issue on purpose for now.

-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Anders Hellgren]

> Currently I'd be interested if there are any solid numbers how many
> global moderators/admins want/don't want to get staff status?

Let's see, all admins and global mods are in the Global Moderators group. 
To the best of my knowledge the staus is the following.

Nitro: Not necessary, [1]
amne: Will take
BonezTheGoon: Don't know, inactive
curtis119: Has recently taken it 
Deathwing00: /me is getting confused by his replies in this thread, the 
main authors of the glep never intended anyone to become Gentoo staff 
without taking the staff quiz.
Earthwings: Will take
ian!: Will take
kallamej: Will take
klieber: Not necessary, [1]
Maedhros: Will take
masseya: Don't know, but he thinks the glep is a really good idea.
phong: Don't know, inactive
pilla: Reluctant, but hasn't said he would refuse.
pjp: Not necessary, [1] 
plate: Not necessary, [1]
puggy: Not necessary, [1]
rac: Not necessary, [1]
tomk: Not necessary, [1]

[1]: http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/roll-call/userinfo.xml

Cheers,

Anders (kallamej)
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò]

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On Tuesday 28 June 2005 12:37, Anders Hellgren wrote:
> Let's see, all admins and global mods are in the Global Moderators group.
> To the best of my knowledge the staus is the following.
If those are all, then the problem doesn't seems to exists.
Most of them already took it, the others will take it, the inactive ones can 
be "suspended" until they came back and then decide.

For the minority of uncertain.. they always can decide "quiz or leave".
It's just a quiz *you* are asking for as already Chris and Fernando said, as 
to be official Gentoo staff/developers (this was just a bit of confusion as 
the gentoo docs consider everyones "developers" so the problem is not staff 
or developers being different, but just the need for a cleanup of terms.

And until you don't figure on roll-call after taking a quiz, you can't be 
considered "Official Staff/Developers", so you can't just say "we're 
official", also ATs getting developers must take the quiz, so you see that 
the quiz *is* a fundamental part of it.

-- 
Diego "Flameeyes" Pettenò
Gentoo Developer - http://dev.gentoo.org/~flameeyes/
(Gentoo/FreeBSD, Video, Gentoo/AMD64, Sound, PAM)

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[gentoo-dev] Re: GLEP 38: Status of forum moderators in the Gentoo project

[Duncan]

Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò posted
<200506281255.41021@enterprise.flameeyes.is-a-geek.org>, excerpted below,
on Tue, 28 Jun 2005 12:55:35 +0200:

> And until you don't figure on roll-call after taking a quiz, you can't
> be considered "Official Staff/Developers", so you can't just say "we're
> official", also ATs getting developers must take the quiz, so you see
> that the quiz *is* a fundamental part of it.

FWIW as a prospective AT myself...  The current amd64 AT requirements, at
least, require taking not only the "staff" quiz, but the full ebuild quiz,
so it's NOT just ATs becoming devs, but ALL (at least amd64) ATs, AND
it's the full ebuild quiz the devs must pass. (I can't say about other
archs, but there's only one such non-amd64 AT so far, on ppc64, and I
wouldn't be surprised if he had to take the full ebuild quiz as well.)

>From the amd64 AT documentation:
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/amd64/tests/index.xml?part=1&chap=1

<quote>
Prospective AT's will have to pass the ebuild quiz, currently here.
</quote>

("Here" points to the ebuild quiz
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/quiz/ebuild-quiz.txt )

Further to the point made elsewhere, but without the source reference,
further quote from the first link above:

<quote>
A note about arch testers "status": Gentoo/AMD64 Arch Testers are not
official Gentoo developers. They are, however, a recognized part of the
Gentoo/AMD64 arch team. I ask that all AT's keep this in mind when
selecting email signatures or other forms of communication.
</quote>

So, yes, ATs take not only the staff quiz, but the full ebuild quiz. 
Further, the expectation is clear that they will be held to "professional"
conduct standards.  For me, that will probably mean giving up my
references to "MSWormOS", at least if and when I choose to identify
myself as an AT.

On the thread subject...

It seems to me there's really not a lot of controversy, only the sides
keep talking past each other and making it more than it is.

Both sides seem to agree that moderators of individual forums shouldn't
have to take the quiz, eliminating the problem of the i11l forums ESL
(English-second-language) mods.

Only the global mods and admins would have to take it, and they all know
English pretty well as a defining characteristic of their job, so the
requirement to take the quiz (and know English well enough to communicate
decently in the Gentoo staff community) shouldn't be an issue.

Further, many of the global mods are already staff/devs, and of those that
aren't, there are only three who haven't said they plan on taking it
anyway, and two of those are inactive.

Thus, the whole debate is over one person, who has expressed a reluctance
to take it but has said (s)he will if necessary.

IMO, that makes it pretty much a non-issue.  If the global mods wish to
make that position official Gentoo staff, and vote among themselves to do
so, there should be no exceptions.  If the one (or either inactive)
global-mod who has concerns chooses not to take the quiz, simply make that
person a individual forum moderator, but just list every forum in the list
of forums they get mod rights in, thus effectively making them a global
mod in all but name, which, if global-mod is to now mean Gentoo staff and
they haven't become Gentoo staff yet, is effectively what they'd be anyway.

OTOH, the global mods, now seeing what it would mean, and that many
already have staff/dev status anyway, could actually decide they don't
want or need Gentoo staff status as part of the global mod description
after all.  They could remain as they are.  It would be perfectly
reasonable for one or more global mods to change their vote out of respect
for the single individual that has expressed reluctance, and to rescind
the GLEP before official vote of the existing Gentoo staff and devs on it.
Things would continue as they are now, and any individual global mod, as
anyone else, could still become a Gentoo dev or Gentoo staff member
independently.

So...  I don't have a vote, but I'd vote yes on a GLEP that made the
forums a Gentoo project and required the global moderators to become
Gentoo staff -- assuming of course they didn't decide they didn't want
that, after all.  No exemptions for individual global mods, but no
exemptions needed, because most are or have expressed an intention to
become staff anyway, with only one person expressing reservations, and if
that person chooses not to, they effectively simply become an individual
forum mod, who happens to have mod rights in /every/ individual forum, so
nothing's lost but the name, IMO a fair sacrifice to the democratic vote
to become staff, considering there's always the choice to take the test
and get back or keep the global mod label as well, if (s)he so chooses.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman in
http://www.linuxdevcenter.com/pub/a/linux/2004/12/22/rms_interview.html


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