* [gentoo-dev] Categories for GUI stuff x11 and wayland @ 2017-08-30 18:01 William L. Thomson Jr. 2017-08-30 19:37 ` [gentoo-dev] " Duncan ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 19+ messages in thread From: William L. Thomson Jr. @ 2017-08-30 18:01 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 785 bytes --] This is more food for thought to start a discussion on new category names. With Wayland becoming more of a reality every day. I think some of the x11-* categories may need to change. Stuff in there may not be bound to X and can run on Wayland or X. Examples x11-libs/gtk+ x11-terms/terminology Not sure what better "universal" category names would be. But seems it maybe time for a discussion on such and some new categories and package moves. Given thus stuff can run under X or Wayland. Not sure x11 makes sense anymore. I can do this on my own in my own overlay. But likely best for official categories as this effects the tree not just others overlays etc. I do not really have any ideas for better names. Just seems like a need. -- William L. Thomson Jr. [-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 195 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* [gentoo-dev] Re: Categories for GUI stuff x11 and wayland 2017-08-30 18:01 [gentoo-dev] Categories for GUI stuff x11 and wayland William L. Thomson Jr. @ 2017-08-30 19:37 ` Duncan 2017-08-30 21:30 ` William L. Thomson Jr. 2017-09-03 0:18 ` Raymond Jennings 2017-09-03 6:44 ` [gentoo-dev] " Kent Fredric 2017-09-08 14:19 ` [gentoo-dev] " William L. Thomson Jr. 2 siblings, 2 replies; 19+ messages in thread From: Duncan @ 2017-08-30 19:37 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev William L. Thomson Jr. posted on Wed, 30 Aug 2017 14:01:08 -0400 as excerpted: > This is more food for thought to start a discussion on new category > names. With Wayland becoming more of a reality every day. I think some > of the x11-* categories may need to change. Stuff in there may not be > bound to X and can run on Wayland or X. > > Examples x11-libs/gtk+ > x11-terms/terminology > > Not sure what better "universal" category names would be. But seems it > maybe time for a discussion on such and some new categories and package > moves. Given thus stuff can run under X or Wayland. Not sure x11 makes > sense anymore. > > I can do this on my own in my own overlay. But likely best for official > categories as this effects the tree not just others overlays etc. I do > not really have any ideas for better names. Just seems like a need. That could be a lot of package-move churn. It arguably might make sense to keep the current names "for legacy reasons". (Or not. Just speculating here.) FWIW, there was some related discussion awhile back on USE=X, proposing USE=gui instead, but I don't know what became of it. Perhaps gui-* category names if that's actually moving forward, in ordered to maintain a bit of consistency and for lack of a better idea? -- Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs. "Every nonfree program has a lord, a master -- and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Categories for GUI stuff x11 and wayland 2017-08-30 19:37 ` [gentoo-dev] " Duncan @ 2017-08-30 21:30 ` William L. Thomson Jr. 2017-09-03 0:18 ` Raymond Jennings 1 sibling, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread From: William L. Thomson Jr. @ 2017-08-30 21:30 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1220 bytes --] On Wed, 30 Aug 2017 19:37:09 +0000 (UTC) Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net> wrote: > > That could be a lot of package-move churn. It arguably might make > sense to keep the current names "for legacy reasons". (Or not. Just > speculating here.) For sure it would require touching lots of packages. Its not really a minor thing, thus bring it up for discussion. Likely need to take into consideration sooner than later. For any new packages, likely best they go into proper new categories then continuing on the legacy. Then it becomes a matter of what to do for others. Lots of packages moves would not be fun. Though something similar was done recently with vpn packages. > FWIW, there was some related discussion awhile back on USE=X, > proposing USE=gui instead, but I don't know what became of it. > Perhaps gui-* category names if that's actually moving forward, in > ordered to maintain a bit of consistency and for lack of a better > idea? I think that is different as you do need X now to differentiate between say X and Wayland. If it was just generic stuff then GUI would make sense. Though usually other stuff handles that, gtk, qt, etc USE flag. -- William L. Thomson Jr. [-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 195 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Categories for GUI stuff x11 and wayland 2017-08-30 19:37 ` [gentoo-dev] " Duncan 2017-08-30 21:30 ` William L. Thomson Jr. @ 2017-09-03 0:18 ` Raymond Jennings 1 sibling, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread From: Raymond Jennings @ 2017-09-03 0:18 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1853 bytes --] On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 12:37 PM, Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net> wrote: > William L. Thomson Jr. posted on Wed, 30 Aug 2017 14:01:08 -0400 as > excerpted: > > > This is more food for thought to start a discussion on new category > > names. With Wayland becoming more of a reality every day. I think some > > of the x11-* categories may need to change. Stuff in there may not be > > bound to X and can run on Wayland or X. > > > > Examples x11-libs/gtk+ > > x11-terms/terminology > > > > Not sure what better "universal" category names would be. But seems it > > maybe time for a discussion on such and some new categories and package > > moves. Given thus stuff can run under X or Wayland. Not sure x11 makes > > sense anymore. > > > > I can do this on my own in my own overlay. But likely best for official > > categories as this effects the tree not just others overlays etc. I do > > not really have any ideas for better names. Just seems like a need. > > That could be a lot of package-move churn. It arguably might make sense > to keep the current names "for legacy reasons". (Or not. Just > speculating here.) > > FWIW, there was some related discussion awhile back on USE=X, proposing > USE=gui instead, but I don't know what became of it. Perhaps gui-* > category names if that's actually moving forward, in ordered to maintain > a bit of consistency and for lack of a better idea? > I think "USE=X" should be reserved for X specific stuff. If it's being used to control gui in general IMHO that's not appropriate. It's bad on principle and is likely to cause practical difficulties later if confusion arises vs competing guis, like qt, gtk, wayland, etc. > > -- > Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs. > "Every nonfree program has a lord, a master -- > and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman > > > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2589 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Categories for GUI stuff x11 and wayland 2017-08-30 18:01 [gentoo-dev] Categories for GUI stuff x11 and wayland William L. Thomson Jr. 2017-08-30 19:37 ` [gentoo-dev] " Duncan @ 2017-09-03 6:44 ` Kent Fredric 2017-09-03 23:37 ` [gentoo-dev] " Duncan 2017-09-08 14:19 ` [gentoo-dev] " William L. Thomson Jr. 2 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread From: Kent Fredric @ 2017-09-03 6:44 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 840 bytes --] On Wed, 30 Aug 2017 14:01:08 -0400 "William L. Thomson Jr." <wlt-ml@o-sinc.com> wrote: > Examples > x11-libs/gtk+ > x11-terms/terminology "desktop" came to mind for me for some reason. "desktop-apps/" "desktop-libs/" "desktop-terms/" "desktop-themes/" All appeal more to me than "gui-apps/" "gui-libs/" "gui-terms/" "gui-themes/" "Gui" just seems too vague and generic here, and also feels like double-dipping. And it will be additionally confusing if any of those apps don't have any GUI, like for instance: gui-apps/xset That just seems backwards to me. desktop-apps/xset Alright, I guess. Maybe a category for non-graphical desktop-related tools should exist instead. desktop-tools/xset IDK. I'm not committed to anything I've said here, just food for thought. [-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* [gentoo-dev] Re: Categories for GUI stuff x11 and wayland 2017-09-03 6:44 ` [gentoo-dev] " Kent Fredric @ 2017-09-03 23:37 ` Duncan 2017-09-04 5:48 ` Kent Fredric 0 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread From: Duncan @ 2017-09-03 23:37 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev Kent Fredric posted on Sun, 03 Sep 2017 18:44:00 +1200 as excerpted: > On Wed, 30 Aug 2017 14:01:08 -0400 > "William L. Thomson Jr." <wlt-ml@o-sinc.com> wrote: > >> Examples >> x11-libs/gtk+ >> x11-terms/terminology > > "desktop" came to mind for me for some reason. > > "desktop-apps/" > "desktop-libs/" > "desktop-terms/" > "desktop-themes/" > > All appeal more to me than > > "gui-apps/" > "gui-libs/" > "gui-terms/" > "gui-themes/" > > "Gui" just seems too vague and generic here, and also feels like > double-dipping. Vague/generic agreed in general. I'm not sure enough what you meant by double-dipping (tho I have a couple ideas) to say I agree there. But... > And it will be additionally confusing if any of those apps don't have > any GUI, like for instance: > > gui-apps/xset > > That just seems backwards to me. > > desktop-apps/xset > > Alright, I guess. > > Maybe a category for non-graphical desktop-related tools should exist > instead. > > desktop-tools/xset How many of these xorg-suite apps have-been/will-be actually ported to wayland? I was under the impression that most of them will not be ported, and it'll be the up to whatever compositor and accompanying toolkit you choose to provide that functionality, as they generally already do... to a point. Certainly the compositor (aka super-window-manager) is the only app allowed to control/delegate many of the functions xset, xrandr, etc, set for xorg in common, for security reasons, because wayland simply doesn't let one app mess with and spy on another app's input stream, for instance, as X does. If only the compositor and/or apps it specifically authenticates for the purpose are allowed to do such settings, it quickly becomes a toolkit/DE function, and generic versions don't make a lot of sense as they simply won't work. In which case, keeping the "legacy" x11-* names for such x-specific apps, the better to eventually deprecate, mask, and send off to the user-maintained "X-sunset" overlay, may make the most sense and will almost certainly be less trouble. And where there is a port, as presumably there is or will be for many of the x11-libs, does it make sense to keep separate x11-* and wayland-* categories where they differ, or throw them all together in a heap? Meanwhile, the objection to "desktop-*" is that it may well look about as relevant in a few years as "mainframe-*" would look today, due to mobile, wearables, and possibly ultimately injectibles. > IDK. > > I'm not committed to anything I've said here, just food for thought. Same here. My biggest concern is simply avoiding, if possible, setting up new categories now, only to have to redo them in 2-5 when hindsight makes them look stupid. It may not be possible, but to the extent it is... Other than that, I've no particular shed color preference, other than don't make it 50 characters long or something so exotic we have to refer to it as "the category formerly known as x11-*." =:^) -- Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs. "Every nonfree program has a lord, a master -- and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Categories for GUI stuff x11 and wayland 2017-09-03 23:37 ` [gentoo-dev] " Duncan @ 2017-09-04 5:48 ` Kent Fredric 2017-09-04 6:07 ` R0b0t1 2017-09-04 11:12 ` Duncan 0 siblings, 2 replies; 19+ messages in thread From: Kent Fredric @ 2017-09-04 5:48 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4236 bytes --] On Sun, 3 Sep 2017 23:37:34 +0000 (UTC) Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net> wrote: > Vague/generic agreed in general. I'm not sure enough what you meant > by double-dipping (tho I have a couple ideas) to say I agree there. Yeah. To an extent these days its just "app" practically *implies* a GUI. It doesn't, strictly, speaking, but its just such a generic term I have a hard time imagining somebody using it as a classifier. > How many of these xorg-suite apps have-been/will-be actually ported to > wayland? I was under the impression that most of them will not be > ported, and it'll be the up to whatever compositor and accompanying > toolkit you choose to provide that functionality, as they generally > already do... to a point. Certainly the compositor (aka > super-window-manager) is the only app allowed to control/delegate many > of the functions xset, xrandr, etc, set for xorg in common, for > security reasons, because wayland simply doesn't let one app mess with > and spy on another app's input stream, for instance, as X does. If > only the compositor and/or apps it specifically authenticates for the > purpose are allowed to do such settings, it quickly becomes a > toolkit/DE function, and generic versions don't make a lot of sense > as they simply won't work. Well, in this case it was more an example of "a tool that has some desktop mechanics, but does not in fact have any Graphical User Interface". "xset" augments *the environment itself* And I simply reasoned that, this, being Unix, we'd likely have equivalent, GUI-less applications that perform various display related services, like xbacklight, or transset, or xrandr. I'm not saying those binaries would literally be ported, only that their utility is such that I'd expect to see equivalents/analogues emerge for wayland. ( intel-gpu-tools for example have neither GUI, or really X specific behaviour aside from its gpu-overlay ) > > In which case, keeping the "legacy" x11-* names for such x-specific > apps, the better to eventually deprecate, mask, and send off to the > user-maintained "X-sunset" overlay, may make the most sense and will > almost certainly be less trouble. > > And where there is a port, as presumably there is or will be for > many of the x11-libs, does it make sense to keep separate x11-* > and wayland-* categories where they differ, or throw them all together > in a heap? Right, there's going to be plenty of examples of things that aren't portable, and will need to stay in perpetuity in x11-* . x11-drivers are probably a good example. Though I'm in no hurry to deprecate X11, wayland will take even longer than systemd for me to go "Ok, yes, now we should switch everyone to this" > Meanwhile, the objection to "desktop-*" is that it may well look about > as relevant in a few years as "mainframe-*" would look today, due to > mobile, wearables, and possibly ultimately injectibles. > > > IDK. > > > > I'm not committed to anything I've said here, just food for > > thought. > > Same here. My biggest concern is simply avoiding, if possible, > setting up new categories now, only to have to redo them in 2-5 when > hindsight makes them look stupid. It may not be possible, but to the > extent it is... Other than that, I've no particular shed color > preference, other than don't make it 50 characters long or something > so exotic we have to refer to it as "the category formerly known as > x11-*." =:^) > Yeah. At this point there's not much value in a switch. And I'm not entirely happy with either "gui-" or "desktop-". "x11-" is, for all its warts, more useful than either of those still. I'm tempted to suggest something like "ux-", which conceptually encompasses GUI/UI/Display concerns, and having an "x" gives a nod to its legacy as being "x" without it being part of the definition :) Its also nice to keep the sort ordering reasonably close: sys-* virtual www-* x11-* xfce-* Becomes sys-* ux-* virtual www-* xfce-* Which should help anyone confused why the category they're looking for isn't in /usr/portage any more when they throw an `ls` down there. [-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Categories for GUI stuff x11 and wayland 2017-09-04 5:48 ` Kent Fredric @ 2017-09-04 6:07 ` R0b0t1 2017-09-04 19:16 ` William L. Thomson Jr. 2017-09-04 11:12 ` Duncan 1 sibling, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread From: R0b0t1 @ 2017-09-04 6:07 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 12:48 AM, Kent Fredric <kentnl@gentoo.org> wrote: > I'm tempted to suggest something like "ux-", which conceptually > encompasses GUI/UI/Display concerns, and having an "x" gives a nod to > its legacy as being "x" without it being part of the definition :) > UX is overly broad, as I could, for example, design a CLI user experience. Nothing says I need to use images or a mouse. There is also the unrelated concern of mine that UX is a fake term that people made up so that they could charge consulting fees to people who don't know any better. Inasmuch as my membership to this list makes my opinion valid, I think "desktop-*" is a very good solution. A desktop is a paradigm that some would say is intrinsically linked to a graphical user interface. People who use tiling or other experimental window managers might see a desktop as something a graphical input system can implement, in which case "gui-*" could be the most technically generic term. I see no problem with putting programs like `xset` into "gui-tools/*". There may not be any reason to change, as the distinctions in place seem to already be quite arbitrary. Having nested package namespaces might make things better because then you are forced to define the logical relationships between namespaces in a way that is not open to as much interpretation. Respectfully, R0b0t1 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Categories for GUI stuff x11 and wayland 2017-09-04 6:07 ` R0b0t1 @ 2017-09-04 19:16 ` William L. Thomson Jr. 2017-09-04 19:29 ` Kent Fredric 0 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread From: William L. Thomson Jr. @ 2017-09-04 19:16 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 800 bytes --] The points made about both ux- and gui- make sense. As does using something like desktop- which could be confusing for mobile, wearable, or other stuff with graphics. Not sure if length is of concern. One that is in use now that has not come up is gfx. That is used now for like media-gfx. Not sure if it would be confusing to have its own category gfx-libs gfx-tools gfx-apps Though gfx and gui are pretty much the same. Given that there is a wikipedia page for GUI. gui-* may be the most clear to all. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphical_user_interface Maybe just UI but that maybe to generic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_interface The wikipedia page on UX would make it not suitable https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_experience -- William L. Thomson Jr. [-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 195 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Categories for GUI stuff x11 and wayland 2017-09-04 19:16 ` William L. Thomson Jr. @ 2017-09-04 19:29 ` Kent Fredric 2017-09-04 22:15 ` Duncan 0 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread From: Kent Fredric @ 2017-09-04 19:29 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 716 bytes --] On Mon, 4 Sep 2017 15:16:46 -0400 "William L. Thomson Jr." <wlt-ml@o-sinc.com> wrote: > Maybe just UI but that maybe to generic. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_interface As a side question, what does "xui" mean in this world? I went googling and all I could find was "X User Interface" And all I could find there is that's "A user interface to the X Windows System" Are we allowed to consider Wayland and X11 are both "X Windows Systems" providing "X User Interfaces", despite the underlying protocols being different? Most of my search results returned "Mac OSX User Interface", so its not all bad. Maybe not a solution in itself, but we're in the right side of the universe now. [-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* [gentoo-dev] Re: Categories for GUI stuff x11 and wayland 2017-09-04 19:29 ` Kent Fredric @ 2017-09-04 22:15 ` Duncan 2017-09-05 14:59 ` Alan McKinnon 0 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread From: Duncan @ 2017-09-04 22:15 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev Kent Fredric posted on Tue, 05 Sep 2017 07:29:42 +1200 as excerpted: > On Mon, 4 Sep 2017 15:16:46 -0400 "William L. Thomson Jr." > <wlt-ml@o-sinc.com> wrote: > >> Maybe just UI but that maybe to generic. >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_interface > > As a side question, what does "xui" mean in this world? > > I went googling and all I could find was "X User Interface" > > And all I could find there is that's "A user interface to the X Windows > System" > > Are we allowed to consider Wayland and X11 are both "X Windows Systems" > providing "X User Interfaces", despite the underlying protocols being > different? Warnock agree? (Tho posting makes it no longer warnock.) Thanks for the warnock reference[1], BTW. I knew of the problem but had no name for it, so you broadened my vocabulary in a very useful way. =:^) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warnock%27s_dilemma -- Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs. "Every nonfree program has a lord, a master -- and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Categories for GUI stuff x11 and wayland 2017-09-04 22:15 ` Duncan @ 2017-09-05 14:59 ` Alan McKinnon 2017-09-05 16:04 ` Kent Fredric 0 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread From: Alan McKinnon @ 2017-09-05 14:59 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev On 05/09/2017 00:15, Duncan wrote: > Kent Fredric posted on Tue, 05 Sep 2017 07:29:42 +1200 as excerpted: > >> On Mon, 4 Sep 2017 15:16:46 -0400 "William L. Thomson Jr." >> <wlt-ml@o-sinc.com> wrote: >> >>> Maybe just UI but that maybe to generic. >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_interface >> >> As a side question, what does "xui" mean in this world? >> >> I went googling and all I could find was "X User Interface" >> >> And all I could find there is that's "A user interface to the X Windows >> System" >> >> Are we allowed to consider Wayland and X11 are both "X Windows Systems" >> providing "X User Interfaces", despite the underlying protocols being >> different? > > Warnock agree? > > (Tho posting makes it no longer warnock.) Thanks for the warnock > reference[1], BTW. I knew of the problem but had no name for it, so you > broadened my vocabulary in a very useful way. =:^) > > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warnock%27s_dilemma > "xui" is a nice descriptive name and gets the point across in a reasonably unambiguous way. wayland is not X11, but it comes from a desire to do what X11 does without X11's problems. There might be a smallish snag with educating users what "xui" means as the name is not in common use. "display-server" also serves as that is what wayland and X11 have in common. It's a long unwieldy name and the "-" might trip over hidden naming assumptions. Given a vote, I'd vote for "xui". Second choice is to stick with "x11-" as it will take a very long time for all users to forget what x11 is and how wayland relates -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckinnon@gmail.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Categories for GUI stuff x11 and wayland 2017-09-05 14:59 ` Alan McKinnon @ 2017-09-05 16:04 ` Kent Fredric 0 siblings, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread From: Kent Fredric @ 2017-09-05 16:04 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 819 bytes --] On Tue, 5 Sep 2017 16:59:39 +0200 Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon@gmail.com> wrote: > "xui" is a nice descriptive name and gets the point across in a > reasonably unambiguous way. wayland is not X11, but it comes from a > desire to do what X11 does without X11's problems. And I have a few other perks of xui too. we could in a pinch pretend it means "x/ui", if people aren't comfortable with considering "Wayland" to be "An X". Then "X/UI" would be "X, and things like it" The wiki page for "X Windows System"[1] also had some interesting notes. > X Consortium release manager Matt Landau stating in 1993, "There is > no such thing as 'X Windows' or 'X Window', despite the repeated > misuse of the forms by the trade rags" Neat. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_Window_System#Nomenclature [-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* [gentoo-dev] Re: Categories for GUI stuff x11 and wayland 2017-09-04 5:48 ` Kent Fredric 2017-09-04 6:07 ` R0b0t1 @ 2017-09-04 11:12 ` Duncan 2017-09-04 17:27 ` R0b0t1 1 sibling, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread From: Duncan @ 2017-09-04 11:12 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev Kent Fredric posted on Mon, 04 Sep 2017 17:48:40 +1200 as excerpted: > Right, there's going to be plenty of examples of things that aren't > portable, and will need to stay in perpetuity in x11-* . x11-drivers > are probably a good example. Though I'm in no hurry to deprecate X11, > wayland will take even longer than systemd for me to go "Ok, yes, now > we should switch everyone to this" Indeed. Even after the general gui-provider can be assumed to be wayland in much the same was as it has been X for decades now, rootless/nested X will be around for many years/decades, for much the same reason that I'm still using dosbox to effectively provide "nested DOS" for that single legacy/proprietary game[1] I still play somewhat frequently. Some things, in particular X-based proprietary apps such as but not limited to games, are unlikely to ever be ported, so those continuing to find a use for them will continue to have a use for X, almost certainly eventually in nested and ultimately emulated form, much as I do with that game and dosbox. > Yeah. At this point there's not much value in a switch. And I'm not > entirely happy with either "gui-" or "desktop-". "x11-" is, for all its > warts, more useful than either of those still. > > I'm tempted to suggest something like "ux-", which conceptually > encompasses GUI/UI/Display concerns, and having an "x" gives a nod to > its legacy as being "x" without it being part of the definition :) I actually really like the ux-* idea. So much so I wish I'd thought of it. =:^) It doesn't come across as nearly as "tired and worn out" as "gui-*" does, here (tho I already see a reply from someone else with the opposite reaction, favoring desktop-* over ux-*). --- [1] Dosbox game: Master of Orion, original, (c) 1993 updated copy. -- Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs. "Every nonfree program has a lord, a master -- and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Categories for GUI stuff x11 and wayland 2017-09-04 11:12 ` Duncan @ 2017-09-04 17:27 ` R0b0t1 2017-09-04 17:53 ` Kent Fredric 2017-09-04 21:57 ` Duncan 0 siblings, 2 replies; 19+ messages in thread From: R0b0t1 @ 2017-09-04 17:27 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 6:12 AM, Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net> wrote: > Indeed. Even after the general gui-provider can be assumed to be wayland > in much the same was as it has been X for decades now, rootless/nested X > will be around for many years/decades, for much the same reason that I'm > still using dosbox to effectively provide "nested DOS" for that single > legacy/proprietary game[1] I still play somewhat frequently. Some > things, in particular X-based proprietary apps such as but not limited to > games, are unlikely to ever be ported, so those continuing to find a use > for them will continue to have a use for X, almost certainly eventually > in nested and ultimately emulated form, much as I do with that game and > dosbox. > You are likely right. There are contractors with stories of the US Government running mission critical infrastructure on servers which emulate an older computer, which in turn is emulating an even older computer. > I actually really like the ux-* idea. So much so I wish I'd thought of > it. =:^) It doesn't come across as nearly as "tired and worn out" as > "gui-*" does, here (tho I already see a reply from someone else with the > opposite reaction, favoring desktop-* over ux-*). > My apologies, sir, for making myself known; please understand it was never my intention to be a nuisance. I simply send things to this list so that I can feel like I am doing something. Up until now I had not been sure my messages were readable. us·er ex·pe·ri·ence noun: user experience; plural noun: user experiences the overall experience of a person using a product such as a website or computer application, especially in terms of how easy or pleasing it is to use. From this definition, I see no connection to anything graphical. To the extent that words have meaning I think the selection of "ux-*" would be a mistake. Respectfully, R0b0t1 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Categories for GUI stuff x11 and wayland 2017-09-04 17:27 ` R0b0t1 @ 2017-09-04 17:53 ` Kent Fredric 2017-09-04 21:57 ` Duncan 1 sibling, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread From: Kent Fredric @ 2017-09-04 17:53 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1268 bytes --] On Mon, 4 Sep 2017 12:27:35 -0500 R0b0t1 <r030t1@gmail.com> wrote: > Up until now I had not been sure my messages were readable. Take it as a compliment, at least 1 of the possible warnock[1] reasons are favourable :) > us·er ex·pe·ri·ence > noun: user experience; plural noun: user experiences > the overall experience of a person using a product such as a > website or computer application, especially in terms of how easy or > pleasing it is to use. > > From this definition, I see no connection to anything graphical. To > the extent that words have meaning I think the selection of "ux-*" > would be a mistake. > > Respectfully, > R0b0t1 Yeah. Prescriptively you are right. "UX" is not "A thing", it is not a piece of software, or even a category of software. "UX" is something software *produces* In truth, it was much more about the "X" in the name as a minor feature, because well, this is geekery, and we do things like this. :) For instance, git master for perl is called "blead" ... And GNU's Not Unix. But yes, I do agree its not ideal still. But I'll try to think of other terms that can sneak an "x" into them ;) 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warnock%27s_dilemma#Original_description [-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* [gentoo-dev] Re: Categories for GUI stuff x11 and wayland 2017-09-04 17:27 ` R0b0t1 2017-09-04 17:53 ` Kent Fredric @ 2017-09-04 21:57 ` Duncan 2017-09-04 23:11 ` Gordon Pettey 1 sibling, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread From: Duncan @ 2017-09-04 21:57 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev R0b0t1 posted on Mon, 04 Sep 2017 12:27:35 -0500 as excerpted: >> I actually really like the ux-* idea. So much so I wish I'd thought of >> it. =:^) It doesn't come across as nearly as "tired and worn out" as >> "gui-*" does, here (tho I already see a reply from someone else with >> the opposite reaction, favoring desktop-* over ux-*). >> > My apologies, sir, for making myself known; please understand it was > never my intention to be a nuisance. No need to apologize for differing views. =:^) FWIW, I too am simply a gentoo user (note the lack of gentoo address), tho I've been a gentooer for nearing a decade and a half now (well, since early 2004, so "nearing" true, but not quite there yet), and have been following the dev list since I first started, so have a rather longer and more mature perspective than some. Meanwhile, it's certainly nice to see messages with more respect than may sometimes be seen in this list. Thanks. But don't be afraid to post your user's opinion just because it differs from someone else's opinion. Your opinion is valuable too, even if it's mine it differs with! =:^) -- Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs. "Every nonfree program has a lord, a master -- and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Categories for GUI stuff x11 and wayland 2017-09-04 21:57 ` Duncan @ 2017-09-04 23:11 ` Gordon Pettey 0 siblings, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread From: Gordon Pettey @ 2017-09-04 23:11 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 811 bytes --] On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 4:57 PM, Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net> wrote: > R0b0t1 posted on Mon, 04 Sep 2017 12:27:35 -0500 as excerpted: > > >> I actually really like the ux-* idea. So much so I wish I'd thought of > >> it. =:^) It doesn't come across as nearly as "tired and worn out" as > >> "gui-*" does, here (tho I already see a reply from someone else with > >> the opposite reaction, favoring desktop-* over ux-*). > Pedants will note that UI (user interface) and UX (user experience) are different things and for the described purpose of package categories, neither one fits, at all. ui-apps: Don't all "apps" have UIs, whether X11, Wayland, ncurses, slang, plain text, or etc.? ux-apps: What does this even mean? UX refers to the way a user interacts with an application, not the application itself. [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1245 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] Categories for GUI stuff x11 and wayland 2017-08-30 18:01 [gentoo-dev] Categories for GUI stuff x11 and wayland William L. Thomson Jr. 2017-08-30 19:37 ` [gentoo-dev] " Duncan 2017-09-03 6:44 ` [gentoo-dev] " Kent Fredric @ 2017-09-08 14:19 ` William L. Thomson Jr. 2 siblings, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread From: William L. Thomson Jr. @ 2017-09-08 14:19 UTC (permalink / raw To: gentoo-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1759 bytes --] On Wed, 30 Aug 2017 14:01:08 -0400 "William L. Thomson Jr." <wlt-ml@o-sinc.com> wrote: > This is more food for thought to start a discussion on new category > names. With Wayland becoming more of a reality every day. I think some > of the x11-* categories may need to change. Stuff in there may not be > bound to X and can run on Wayland or X. > > Examples > x11-libs/gtk+ > x11-terms/terminology > > Not sure what better "universal" category names would be. But seems it > maybe time for a discussion on such and some new categories and > package moves. Given thus stuff can run under X or Wayland. Not sure > x11 makes sense anymore. One thing I forgot to mention, the x11-* would not go away just shrink. General stuff that is for say X11 or Wayland would go into the "new" categories. Anything that is X specific, like xorg, drivers, xephyr, etc would remain in the location and category it presently resides. This would reduce the amount of package moves, but still would be fair amount. With some being pretty major like moving GTK+. EFL ended up in dev-libs, and I am not sure if that is the proper location, though it does cross many categories. GTK+ and FLTK are in x11-libs. I think EFL ended up in dev-libs due to Wayland situation. P.S. I myself am not super excited about wayland. I see reliving a lot of the problems of the past. Not to mention wayland supporting what X can do now, today. Many things still in the works for most any supporting Wayland, dual display, different resolutions etc. I gave it a nickname "Waitland" as you have to WAIT for wayland to support this or that.... Either way it seems inevitable... Even if years off from being the daily driver. -- William L. Thomson Jr. [-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 195 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2017-09-08 14:19 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 19+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2017-08-30 18:01 [gentoo-dev] Categories for GUI stuff x11 and wayland William L. Thomson Jr. 2017-08-30 19:37 ` [gentoo-dev] " Duncan 2017-08-30 21:30 ` William L. Thomson Jr. 2017-09-03 0:18 ` Raymond Jennings 2017-09-03 6:44 ` [gentoo-dev] " Kent Fredric 2017-09-03 23:37 ` [gentoo-dev] " Duncan 2017-09-04 5:48 ` Kent Fredric 2017-09-04 6:07 ` R0b0t1 2017-09-04 19:16 ` William L. Thomson Jr. 2017-09-04 19:29 ` Kent Fredric 2017-09-04 22:15 ` Duncan 2017-09-05 14:59 ` Alan McKinnon 2017-09-05 16:04 ` Kent Fredric 2017-09-04 11:12 ` Duncan 2017-09-04 17:27 ` R0b0t1 2017-09-04 17:53 ` Kent Fredric 2017-09-04 21:57 ` Duncan 2017-09-04 23:11 ` Gordon Pettey 2017-09-08 14:19 ` [gentoo-dev] " William L. Thomson Jr.
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