[gentoo-dev] Why is IUSE=hpn mandatory in openssh ?

[gentoo-dev] Why is IUSE=hpn mandatory in openssh ?

[Toralf Förster]

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WRT to but 504616 I'd like to address my questions made in https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=504616#c6 to this list again :

	"Since the Debian debakel with "fixing" an uninitialized memeory I'm very skeptical to distribution specific corrections which are not included upstream. At least I'm wondering if the USE flag hpn should be enabled by the user explicitely - currently it is in  IUSE already."



- -- 
MfG/Sincerely
Toralf Förster
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Why is IUSE=hpn mandatory in openssh ?

[Alex Xu]

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On 29/03/14 06:07 AM, Toralf Förster wrote:
> WRT to but 504616 I'd like to address my questions made in https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=504616#c6 to this list again :
> 
> 	"Since the Debian debakel with "fixing" an uninitialized memeory I'm very skeptical to distribution specific corrections which are not included upstream. At least I'm wondering if the USE flag hpn should be enabled by the user explicitely - currently it is in  IUSE already."
> 
> 
> 
> 

1. Please use a spelling checker.

2. IUSE doesn't mean what you think it means.
http://devmanual.gentoo.org/quickstart/#ebuild-with-use-flags


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Why is IUSE=hpn mandatory in openssh ?

[Tom Wijsman]

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On Sat, 29 Mar 2014 07:15:14 -0400
Alex Xu <alex_y_xu@yahoo.ca> wrote:

> On 29/03/14 06:07 AM, Toralf Förster wrote:
> > WRT to but 504616 I'd like to address my questions made in
> > https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=504616#c6 to this list
> > again :
> > 
> > 	"Since the Debian debakel with "fixing" an uninitialized
> > memeory I'm very skeptical to distribution specific corrections
> > which are not included upstream. At least I'm wondering if the USE
> > flag hpn should be enabled by the user explicitely - currently it
> > is in  IUSE already."
> 
> 1. Please use a spelling checker.
> 
> 2. IUSE doesn't mean what you think it means.
> http://devmanual.gentoo.org/quickstart/#ebuild-with-use-flags

Toralf wants to indicate that it is implicitly enabled by default (by
the '+' character); and thus, he would like to see it become disabled by
default, such that the user can explicitly enable it.

-- 
With kind regards,

Tom Wijsman (TomWij)
Gentoo Developer

E-mail address  : TomWij@gentoo.org
GPG Public Key  : 6D34E57D
GPG Fingerprint : C165 AF18 AB4C 400B C3D2  ABF0 95B2 1FCD 6D34 E57D

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Why is IUSE=hpn mandatory in openssh ?

[Toralf Förster]

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On 03/29/2014 08:12 PM, Tom Wijsman wrote:
> On Sat, 29 Mar 2014 07:15:14 -0400 Alex Xu <alex_y_xu@yahoo.ca>
> wrote:
> 
>> On 29/03/14 06:07 AM, Toralf Förster wrote:
>>> WRT to but 504616 I'd like to address my questions made in 
>>> https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=504616#c6 to this list 
>>> again :
>>> 
>>> "Since the Debian debakel with "fixing" an uninitialized 
>>> memeory I'm very skeptical to distribution specific
>>> corrections which are not included upstream. At least I'm
>>> wondering if the USE flag hpn should be enabled by the user
>>> explicitely - currently it is in  IUSE already."
>> 
>> 1. Please use a spelling checker.
>> 
>> 2. IUSE doesn't mean what you think it means. 
>> http://devmanual.gentoo.org/quickstart/#ebuild-with-use-flags
> 
> Toralf wants to indicate that it is implicitly enabled by default
> (by the '+' character); and thus, he would like to see it become
> disabled by default, such that the user can explicitly enable it.
> 
Yes - that's what I want.

At least an einfo should be added to the package IMO telling the user
that HPN is enabled by default.


- -- 
MfG/Sincerely
Toralf Förster
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Why is IUSE=hpn mandatory in openssh ?

[hasufell]

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Toralf Förster:
> On 03/29/2014 08:12 PM, Tom Wijsman wrote:
>> On Sat, 29 Mar 2014 07:15:14 -0400 Alex Xu <alex_y_xu@yahoo.ca> 
>> wrote:
> 
>>> On 29/03/14 06:07 AM, Toralf Förster wrote:
>>>> WRT to but 504616 I'd like to address my questions made in 
>>>> https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=504616#c6 to this
>>>> list again :
>>>> 
>>>> "Since the Debian debakel with "fixing" an uninitialized 
>>>> memeory I'm very skeptical to distribution specific 
>>>> corrections which are not included upstream. At least I'm 
>>>> wondering if the USE flag hpn should be enabled by the user 
>>>> explicitely - currently it is in  IUSE already."
>>> 
>>> 1. Please use a spelling checker.
>>> 
>>> 2. IUSE doesn't mean what you think it means. 
>>> http://devmanual.gentoo.org/quickstart/#ebuild-with-use-flags
> 
>> Toralf wants to indicate that it is implicitly enabled by
>> default (by the '+' character); and thus, he would like to see it
>> become disabled by default, such that the user can explicitly
>> enable it.
> 
> Yes - that's what I want.

We have had those debates whether the "+" should follow upstream
decisions and such. Short answer: the maintainer decides. There is no
consistency for this and there will never be.

> 
> At least an einfo should be added to the package IMO telling the
> user that HPN is enabled by default.
> 

No, that's not the right approach. There are tools you can use to
check what flags are enabled. Use 'eix' and 'equery' for example.
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[gentoo-dev] Re: Why is IUSE=hpn mandatory in openssh ?

[Duncan]

hasufell posted on Sat, 29 Mar 2014 22:31:46 +0000 as excerpted:

>> At least an einfo should be added to the package IMO telling the user
>> that HPN is enabled by default.
>> 
>> 
> No, that's not the right approach. There are tools you can use to check
> what flags are enabled. Use 'eix' and 'equery' for example.

... Or even the gentoo-recommended emerge --pretend or emerge -ask and 
actually examining the output to ensure it's doing what you intend, 
before actually going ahead.

Gentoo has never pretended to be a hand-holding distribution (tho it 
seems to be getting rather more so these days); gentooers ignoring that 
recommendation... get to keep the pieces. =:^)

If a gentooer didn't care enough to bother following long established 
best-practice recommendations and thus end up with what might be an 
insecure ssh despite the tools and recommendations available to help them 
make an appropriate choice, that's their problem, not gentoo's.  If they 
can't be bothered to care, there's other distributions around to do that 
baby-sitting for them.  (Of course, whether such distributions are 
themselves simply acting in accord with the wishes of NSA nannies is an 
entirely different question... at least gentoo generally exposes that 
sort of choice to the user... as it is in fact doing here, as well.)

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

Re: [gentoo-dev] Why is IUSE=hpn mandatory in openssh ?

[Dirkjan Ochtman]

On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 11:31 PM, hasufell <hasufell@gentoo.org> wrote:
> We have had those debates whether the "+" should follow upstream
> decisions and such. Short answer: the maintainer decides. There is no
> consistency for this and there will never be.

That may be true, I still think it behooves us to be particularly
careful about including non-upstream patches on extremely sensitive
software such as openssh, so I don't think saying "maintainer decides"
is a good enough response to Toralf's questions.

On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 1:15 AM, Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net> wrote:
> Gentoo has never pretended to be a hand-holding distribution (tho it
> seems to be getting rather more so these days); gentooers ignoring that
> recommendation... get to keep the pieces. =:^)

While I can see where you're coming from, that doesn't mean the Gentoo
developers shouldn't provide sensible defaults. If we load up all
Gentoo systems with an insecure OpenSSH by default, saying "ah, you
should have fixed the configuration" is just a cop-out.

So, I'm interested... How widely used is the HPN patch set? Are there
any good indications that it doesn't negatively impact security?

Cheers,

Dirkjan

Re: [gentoo-dev] Why is IUSE=hpn mandatory in openssh ?

[Alex Xu]

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On 31/03/14 03:36 AM, Dirkjan Ochtman wrote:
> So, I'm interested... How widely used is the HPN patch set? Are there
> any good indications that it doesn't negatively impact security?

https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=292932
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=693424

https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2007-July/105570.html

https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/openssh-hpn/

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/openssh/+bug/162253


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Why is IUSE=hpn mandatory in openssh ?

[Toralf Förster]

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On 03/31/2014 01:15 PM, Alex Xu wrote:
> On 31/03/14 03:36 AM, Dirkjan Ochtman wrote:
>> So, I'm interested... How widely used is the HPN patch set? Are there
>> any good indications that it doesn't negatively impact security?
> 
> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=292932
> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=693424
> 
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2007-July/105570.html
> 
> https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/openssh-hpn/
> 
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/openssh/+bug/162253
> 

Those bug reports are good arguments to have HPN as a feature in openssh.

And most of them now many years old and still open.

That's an argument to rethink if HPN should be activated quietly.


- -- 
MfG/Sincerely
Toralf Förster
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Why is IUSE=hpn mandatory in openssh ?

[Marcin Mirosław]

W dniu 2014-03-31 19:35, Toralf Förster pisze:
> On 03/31/2014 01:15 PM, Alex Xu wrote:
>> On 31/03/14 03:36 AM, Dirkjan Ochtman wrote:
>>> So, I'm interested... How widely used is the HPN patch set? Are there
>>> any good indications that it doesn't negatively impact security?
> 
>> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=292932
>> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=693424
> 
>> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2007-July/105570.html
> 
>> https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/openssh-hpn/
> 
>> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/openssh/+bug/162253
> 
> 
> Those bug reports are good arguments to have HPN as a feature in openssh.
> 
> And most of them now many years old and still open.
> 
> That's an argument to rethink if HPN should be activated quietly.

According to last problem with openssl and +tls-heartbeat I'd like to
see less features enabled by default. USE="-*" isn't the best solution;)

Marcin

Re: [gentoo-dev] Why is IUSE=hpn mandatory in openssh ?

[Mike Gilbert]

On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 2:34 PM, Marcin Mirosław <marcin@mejor.pl> wrote:
> According to last problem with openssl and +tls-heartbeat I'd like to
> see less features enabled by default. USE="-*" isn't the best solution;)
>

A bug in an upstream-supported feature is quite different from a
patched-in feature that upstream doesn't support.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Why is IUSE=hpn mandatory in openssh ?

[Rick "Zero_Chaos" Farina]

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On 04/08/2014 02:40 PM, Mike Gilbert wrote:

Gentoo typically tries to keep patching to a minimum in general.  To be
enabling something like this by default seems bad, the fact that it is
openssh compounds that.  +1 for removing the + and leaving this optional
(default off).

I see no reason to not allow users who want the feature to have it, but
let's not pretend that openssh is not important enough to have a little
special treatment.  Openssh has a fantastic security record, let's see
if we can keep it that way by default.

- -Zero
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Why is IUSE=hpn mandatory in openssh ?

[Dirkjan Ochtman]

On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 8:40 PM, Mike Gilbert <floppym@gentoo.org> wrote:
> A bug in an upstream-supported feature is quite different from a
> patched-in feature that upstream doesn't support.

Since no maintainer has spoken up here, I filed a bug:

https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=507210

I filed a similar bug about openssl[tls-heartbeat] yesterday:

https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=507130

Cheers,

Dirkjan

Re: [gentoo-dev] Why is IUSE=hpn mandatory in openssh ?

[Rich Freeman]

On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 11:03 PM, Rick "Zero_Chaos" Farina
<zerochaos@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Gentoo typically tries to keep patching to a minimum in general.  To be
> enabling something like this by default seems bad, the fact that it is
> openssh compounds that.  +1 for removing the + and leaving this optional
> (default off).

In general I agree with this approach.  I think hpn is a bit more of a
judgment call as it appears to be fairly mainstream and
well-supported.  I don't understand why it wasn't merged in, and
perhaps the answer to that question might be informative.

Still, big patch sets that aren't upstreamed should probably not be
the default.  Patches needed to integrate a package into Gentoo as a
whole should of course be the default, since that is our whole reason
for being.

Rich

Re: [gentoo-dev] Why is IUSE=hpn mandatory in openssh ?

[Kristian Fiskerstrand]

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Hash: SHA512

On 04/09/2014 05:03 AM, Rick "Zero_Chaos" Farina wrote:
> On 04/08/2014 02:40 PM, Mike Gilbert wrote:
> 
> Gentoo typically tries to keep patching to a minimum in general.
> To be enabling something like this by default seems bad, the fact
> that it is openssh compounds that.  +1 for removing the + and
> leaving this optional (default off).

Just to pitch in that as a user I'm in favor of this approach as well.

- -- 
- ----------------------------
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Blog: http://blog.sumptuouscapital.com
Twitter: @krifisk
- ----------------------------
Public PGP key 0xE3EDFAE3 at hkp://pool.sks-keyservers.net
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Why is IUSE=hpn mandatory in openssh ?

[Joshua Kinard]

On 04/09/2014 10:54, Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 11:03 PM, Rick "Zero_Chaos" Farina
> <zerochaos@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> Gentoo typically tries to keep patching to a minimum in general.  To be
>> enabling something like this by default seems bad, the fact that it is
>> openssh compounds that.  +1 for removing the + and leaving this optional
>> (default off).
> 
> In general I agree with this approach.  I think hpn is a bit more of a
> judgment call as it appears to be fairly mainstream and
> well-supported.  I don't understand why it wasn't merged in, and
> perhaps the answer to that question might be informative.
> 
> Still, big patch sets that aren't upstreamed should probably not be
> the default.  Patches needed to integrate a package into Gentoo as a
> whole should of course be the default, since that is our whole reason
> for being.

Part of me thinks it's a time availability issue.  OpenSSH is, effectively,
a sub-project of OpenBSD, and I believe they focus primarily on making it
work on OBSD, followed by the portable releases to other OSes.

I myself am testing an updated patch to enable SSH over SCTP that's been
sitting in their bug queue[1] for a good while.  Working good so far on
Linux/amd64, Linux/mips, and FreeBSD/amd64[VM], so I was thinking of adding
it to our ebuild via the 'sctp' USE, defaulted to off.

That said, I searched the OpenSSH bugzilla for "hpn" and "high performance",
and nothing comes back, so it appears that the HPN patch has not been put
into their bugzilla.  Hence, it's probably not on the priority list for
inclusion.

This link explains HPN support better:
http://www.psc.edu/index.php/hpn-ssh/640

The question at the bottom of that FAQ indicates that the HPN upstream has
provided the patch to the OpenSSH devs, but they really should create a bug
for it and attach their patch there.

Refs:
1. https://bugzilla.mindrot.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2016

-- 
Joshua Kinard
Gentoo/MIPS
kumba@gentoo.org
4096R/D25D95E3 2011-03-28

"The past tempts us, the present confuses us, the future frightens us.  And
our lives slip away, moment by moment, lost in that vast, terrible in-between."

--Emperor Turhan, Centauri Republic