[gentoo-dev] LANG=en_GB.UTF-8 by default

[gentoo-dev] LANG=en_GB.UTF-8 by default

[Francesco R.(vivo)]

as subject says could gentoo change the policy and set an UTF-8 environment by 
default?

http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/utf-8.xml how to do it very well but having it 
already set could have the following two advantages:

1) well utf-8 is everywhere, even the linux weekly newsletter has it in 2012
2) the user need to change, not to create a /etc/env.d/XX-lc, creating a 
standard place where every gentoo install has this settings.

contra?

P.S. would be nice to have a wd_WD.UTF-8 with WD standing for world, just a 
country is so 1900

Re: [gentoo-dev] LANG=en_GB.UTF-8 by default

[Mr. Aaron W. Swenson]

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On Wed, Feb 15, 2012 at 12:58:52PM +0100, Francesco R.(vivo) wrote:
> as subject says could gentoo change the policy and set an UTF-8 environment by 
> default?
> 
> http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/utf-8.xml how to do it very well but having it 
> already set could have the following two advantages:
> 
> 1) well utf-8 is everywhere, even the linux weekly newsletter has it in 2012
> 2) the user need to change, not to create a /etc/env.d/XX-lc, creating a 
> standard place where every gentoo install has this settings.
> 
> contra?
> 
> P.S. would be nice to have a wd_WD.UTF-8 with WD standing for world, just a 
> country is so 1900
> 

wd_WD.UTF-8 is certainly a no go. WD doesn't match any ISO country
code. To support it, we'd have to create the necessary supporting
files and that would lead to a lot of work and headaches trying to
determine what should be where in what order, et cetera.

All of the files we create (ebuilds, initscripts) are UTF-8 in
accordance with GLEP 31. So, the issue would be with upstream projects
not using UTF-8 for their files.

However, the stage 3, last time I used it, didn't default to a UTF-8
environment, and it didn't default to using and/or including a capable
UTF-8 font. It is something I think we should look at changing.

-- 
Mr. Aaron W. Swenson
Gentoo Linux
Developer, Proxy Committer
Email    : titanofold@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP : 2C00 7719 4F85 FB07 A49C  0E31 5713 AA03 D1BB FDA0
GnuPG ID : D1BBFDA0

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[gentoo-dev] Re: LANG=en_GB.UTF-8 by default

[Kerin Millar]

On 15/02/2012 12:22, Mr. Aaron W. Swenson wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 15, 2012 at 12:58:52PM +0100, Francesco R.(vivo) wrote:
>> as subject says could gentoo change the policy and set an UTF-8 environment by
>> default?

Perhaps it should define LANG="en_US.UTF-8" as a reasonable default, 
which would be in line with other notable distros. Arch also used to 
define LC_COLLATE="C" by default, probably to mitigate unpredictable 
behaviour in some applications, but have since dropped this additional 
variable so they must have deemed it no longer necessary.

I think that having a default configuration file would also raise 
awareness of the importance of locale configuration and make it less 
likely that users configure their systems inappropriately (defining 
LC_ALL, for instance).

>> P.S. would be nice to have a wd_WD.UTF-8 with WD standing for world, just a
>> country is so 1900

Different countries/regions have different standards and conventions for 
character classification, case conversion, date/numerical/currency 
formatting etc. There's no basis on which to formally standardise a 
world-wide definition.

>>
>
> However, the stage 3, last time I used it, didn't default to a UTF-8
> environment, and it didn't default to using and/or including a capable
> UTF-8 font. It is something I think we should look at changing.
>

Yet "unicode" is a default flag in the standard profiles. Most console 
fonts have poor coverage. The best one I've found thus far is 
"LatCyrGr-16" from fonty-rg, which provides good Latin and Cyrillic 
coverage along with some Greek and esoteric punctuation characters. 
Using this font, I've yet to find any developer's name that doesn't 
render as expected while perusing the contents of the portage tree.

Being a 512 character font, one loses bold support unless using a 
framebuffer console. Given that the default console fonts aren't 
especially useful, it seems a small price to pay.

--Kerin

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: LANG=en_GB.UTF-8 by default

[James Cloos]

>>>>> "KM" == Kerin Millar <kerframil@gmail.com> writes:

KM> Arch also used to define LC_COLLATE="C" by default, probably to
KM> mitigate unpredictable behaviour in some applications, but have
KM> since dropped this additional variable so they must have deemed it
KM> no longer necessary.

Without LC_COLLATE="C" things like [a-z]* gets a false=positive match
on files like Makefile.

I recently noticed a bug on b.g.o where the ebuild has something like
doc/[A-Z]* expecting that it will not match doc/some_lowercase_subdir.

The bug, of course, is that glibc fraudulently defaults the latin, greek
and cyrillic locales to case-insensitive.

The real fix is to have root be C.UTF-8.  Which differs from C only in
that the charset is utf-8.

-JimC
-- 
James Cloos <cloos@jhcloos.com>         OpenPGP: 1024D/ED7DAEA6

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: LANG=en_GB.UTF-8 by default

[Ben]

On 19 February 2012 09:00, James Cloos <cloos@jhcloos.com> wrote:
> Without LC_COLLATE="C" things like [a-z]* gets a false=positive match
> on files like Makefile. [...]
>
> The real fix is to have root be C.UTF-8.  Which differs from C only in
> that the charset is utf-8.

In my opinion we should set a default environment with the following values:

LANG=en_US.UTF-8
LC_ALL=
LC_COLLATE=C

This offers the best default options to the majority of users, and is
easy to customize for those who wish to use another locale.

And yes, LC_ALL needs to be empty, because it would override the other
LC_* values.

This should be combined with some good unicode fonts, such as the
LatCyrGr-16 for console, and dejavu for X.

Cheers,
Ben

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: LANG=en_GB.UTF-8 by default

[Amadeusz Żołnowski]

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Excerpts from Ben's message of 2012-02-19 03:04:19 +0100:
> On 19 February 2012 09:00, James Cloos <cloos@jhcloos.com> wrote:
> > Without LC_COLLATE="C" things like [a-z]* gets a false=positive
> > match on files like Makefile. [...]
> >
> > The real fix is to have root be C.UTF-8.  Which differs from C only
> > in that the charset is utf-8.
> 
> In my opinion we should set a default environment with the following
> values:
> 
> LANG=en_US.UTF-8
> LC_ALL=
> LC_COLLATE=C

This is only on my setups or this is "xy_XY.utf8" instead of
"xy_XY.UTF-8"?


-- 
Amadeusz Żołnowski

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: LANG=en_GB.UTF-8 by default

[Ulrich Mueller]

>>>>> On Sun, 19 Feb 2012, Ben  wrote:

> In my opinion we should set a default environment with the following
> values:

> LANG=en_US.UTF-8
> LC_ALL=
> LC_COLLATE=C

> This offers the best default options to the majority of users, and
> is easy to customize for those who wish to use another locale.

At least, LC_NUMERIC=C should be added to this, otherwise numbers will
be formatted with commas as thousands separators.

Also en_US.UTF-8 for LC_MEASUREMENT and LC_PAPER means imperial units
and letter paper, which isn't optimal for users outside of the U.S.

Ulrich

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: LANG=en_GB.UTF-8 by default

[Ben]

On 19 February 2012 23:14, Ulrich Mueller <ulm@gentoo.org> wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 19 Feb 2012, Ben  wrote:
>
>> In my opinion we should set a default environment with the following
>> values:
>
>> LANG=en_US.UTF-8
>> LC_ALL=
>> LC_COLLATE=C
>
>> This offers the best default options to the majority of users, and
>> is easy to customize for those who wish to use another locale.
>
> At least, LC_NUMERIC=C should be added to this, otherwise numbers will
> be formatted with commas as thousands separators.
>
> Also en_US.UTF-8 for LC_MEASUREMENT and LC_PAPER means imperial units
> and letter paper, which isn't optimal for users outside of the U.S.
>
> Ulrich
>

I think those users (and that includes myself) should then set LANG to
something more appropriate to their use case.

Ben

[gentoo-dev] Re: LANG=en_GB.UTF-8 by default

[Kerin Millar]

On 19/02/2012 15:56, Ben wrote:
> On 19 February 2012 23:14, Ulrich Mueller<ulm@gentoo.org>  wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 19 Feb 2012, Ben  wrote:
>>
>>> In my opinion we should set a default environment with the following
>>> values:
>>
>>> LANG=en_US.UTF-8
>>> LC_ALL=

LC_ALL isn't needed here because, unlike other LC_* settings, it does 
not inherit from LANG and, thus, will be undefined anyway. Although the 
above would not directly cause any harm, I am entirely certain that its 
mere presence would encourage users to explicitly define it where they 
most definitely should not. The misinformation that LC_ALL should be 
defined was propagated by the localization doc for rather a long time 
and it was rather challenging to impress upon its maintainers that 
change was required. Let's not repeat old mistakes.

>>> LC_COLLATE=C
>>
>>> This offers the best default options to the majority of users, and
>>> is easy to customize for those who wish to use another locale.
>>
>> At least, LC_NUMERIC=C should be added to this, otherwise numbers will
>> be formatted with commas as thousands separators.
>>
>> Also en_US.UTF-8 for LC_MEASUREMENT and LC_PAPER means imperial units
>> and letter paper, which isn't optimal for users outside of the U.S.
>>
>> Ulrich
>>
>
> I think those users (and that includes myself) should then set LANG to
> something more appropriate to their use case.
>

I agree; the defaults should not be over-engineered. For proper 
localisation, set LANG appropriately and done. The real issue is that 
locale configuration isn't mentioned in the handbook. It does, however, 
mention locale.gen so we're half-way there.

--Kerin

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: LANG=en_GB.UTF-8 by default

[Ulrich Mueller]

>>>>> On Sun, 19 Feb 2012, Ben  wrote:

>>> In my opinion we should set a default environment with the
>>> following values:
>> 
>>> LANG=en_US.UTF-8
>>> LC_ALL=
>>> LC_COLLATE=C
>> 
>>> This offers the best default options to the majority of users, and
>>> is easy to customize for those who wish to use another locale.
>> 
>> At least, LC_NUMERIC=C should be added to this, otherwise numbers
>> will be formatted with commas as thousands separators.
>> 
>> Also en_US.UTF-8 for LC_MEASUREMENT and LC_PAPER means imperial
>> units and letter paper, which isn't optimal for users outside of
>> the U.S.

> I think those users (and that includes myself) should then set LANG
> to something more appropriate to their use case.

And why should we set the default to an US locale then? IMHO something
like

  LANG=C
  LC_CTYPE=en_US.utf8

would be much less intrusive if you just want UTF-8, without
influencing other i18n variables.

Ulrich

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: LANG=en_GB.UTF-8 by default

[William Hubbs]

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On Sun, Feb 19, 2012 at 11:56:40PM +0800, Ben wrote:
> On 19 February 2012 23:14, Ulrich Mueller <ulm@gentoo.org> wrote:
> >>>>>> On Sun, 19 Feb 2012, Ben  wrote:
> >
> >> In my opinion we should set a default environment with the following
> >> values:
> >
> >> LANG=en_US.UTF-8
> >> LC_ALL=
> >> LC_COLLATE=C
> >
> >> This offers the best default options to the majority of users, and
> >> is easy to customize for those who wish to use another locale.
> >
> > At least, LC_NUMERIC=C should be added to this, otherwise numbers will
> > be formatted with commas as thousands separators.
> >
> > Also en_US.UTF-8 for LC_MEASUREMENT and LC_PAPER means imperial units
> > and letter paper, which isn't optimal for users outside of the U.S.
> >
> > Ulrich
> >
> 
> I think those users (and that includes myself) should then set LANG to
> something more appropriate to their use case.

According to our localization guide, there is a safe default that forces
UTF-8 characters but doesn't force any language. I have the following
single line in /etc/env.d/02locale:

LC_CTYPE=en_US.UTF-8

What do you think?

William


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[gentoo-dev] Re: LANG=en_GB.UTF-8 by default

[Kerin Millar]

On 20/02/2012 00:11, William Hubbs wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 19, 2012 at 11:56:40PM +0800, Ben wrote:
>> On 19 February 2012 23:14, Ulrich Mueller<ulm@gentoo.org>  wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 19 Feb 2012, Ben  wrote:
>>>
>>>> In my opinion we should set a default environment with the following
>>>> values:
>>>
>>>> LANG=en_US.UTF-8
>>>> LC_ALL=
>>>> LC_COLLATE=C
>>>
>>>> This offers the best default options to the majority of users, and
>>>> is easy to customize for those who wish to use another locale.
>>>
>>> At least, LC_NUMERIC=C should be added to this, otherwise numbers will
>>> be formatted with commas as thousands separators.
>>>
>>> Also en_US.UTF-8 for LC_MEASUREMENT and LC_PAPER means imperial units
>>> and letter paper, which isn't optimal for users outside of the U.S.
>>>
>>> Ulrich
>>>
>>
>> I think those users (and that includes myself) should then set LANG to
>> something more appropriate to their use case.
>
> According to our localization guide, there is a safe default that forces
> UTF-8 characters but doesn't force any language. I have the following
> single line in /etc/env.d/02locale:
>
> LC_CTYPE=en_US.UTF-8
>

That looks good but perhaps it should also define LANG=POSIX, which is 
similar to Ulrich's proposal. Something like:

# To configure for your region, set LANG to an appropriate locale, then 
comment
# or remove LC_CTYPE. Run "locale -a" to obtain a list of available locales.
LANG=POSIX
LC_CTYPE=en_US.utf8

I know that adding LANG=POSIX doesn't do anything in this case but I 
have a feeling that its presence would be instructive to new users. If a 
user is asked to configure something which isn't present, it often 
generates questions which might otherwise be avoided. I've changed 
"en_US.UTF-8" to "en_US.utf8" there for similar reasons.

Not to mention that, if one is curious and searches for "posix locale" 
via Google, the first link is for the Open Group specification :)

I reckon that this, along with some basic information in the handbook, 
would be a step in the right direction.

--Kerin

[gentoo-dev] Re: LANG=en_GB.UTF-8 by default

[Fabian Groffen]

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On 20-02-2012 03:07:33 +0000, Kerin Millar wrote:
> I know that adding LANG=POSIX doesn't do anything in this case but I 
> have a feeling that its presence would be instructive to new users. If a 
> user is asked to configure something which isn't present, it often 
> generates questions which might otherwise be avoided. I've changed 
> "en_US.UTF-8" to "en_US.utf8" there for similar reasons.

I don't understand.  UTF-8 is the codeset, that utf8 is recognised as
the same thing is IMO a GNUism.  glibc understands "UTF-8" perfectly
fine these days, so it should preferably be used instead.  (Even the
man-page, utf8(7), suggests that.)


-- 
Fabian Groffen
Gentoo on a different level

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[gentoo-dev] Re: LANG=en_GB.UTF-8 by default

[Kerin Millar]

On 20/02/2012 07:47, Fabian Groffen wrote:
> On 20-02-2012 03:07:33 +0000, Kerin Millar wrote:
>> I know that adding LANG=POSIX doesn't do anything in this case but I
>> have a feeling that its presence would be instructive to new users. If a
>> user is asked to configure something which isn't present, it often
>> generates questions which might otherwise be avoided. I've changed
>> "en_US.UTF-8" to "en_US.utf8" there for similar reasons.
>
> I don't understand.  UTF-8 is the codeset, that utf8 is recognised as
> the same thing is IMO a GNUism.  glibc understands "UTF-8" perfectly
> fine these days, so it should preferably be used instead.  (Even the
> man-page, utf8(7), suggests that.)
>

Most users don't read man pages. The rationale was that the user can 
copy-paste exactly what they see from "locale -a", which might diminish 
the number of questions asked about it via mainstream support channels, 
as well as simplifying the instructions in the sample comment. It was 
just a thought; no big deal.

--Kerin

[gentoo-dev] Re: LANG=en_GB.UTF-8 by default

[Kerin Millar]

On 19/02/2012 01:00, James Cloos wrote:
>>>>>> "KM" == Kerin Millar<kerframil@gmail.com>  writes:
>
> KM>  Arch also used to define LC_COLLATE="C" by default, probably to
> KM>  mitigate unpredictable behaviour in some applications, but have
> KM>  since dropped this additional variable so they must have deemed it
> KM>  no longer necessary.
>
> Without LC_COLLATE="C" things like [a-z]* gets a false=positive match
> on files like Makefile.

Indeed, character classes are a potential minefield. Incidentally, I 
just tested Ubuntu and Arch with only LANG set to a UTF-8 locale:-

$ echo Makefile | sed -re 's/[a-z]//g' # collation rules ignored
M

$ echo Makefile | grep -Eo '[a-z]*' # collation rules ignored
akefile

In neither case are the collation rules being obeyed. In Gentoo, however:-

$ echo Makefile | sed -re 's/[a-z]//g' # collation rules obeyed

$ echo Makefile | grep -Eo '[a-z]*' # collation rules ignored
akefile

Obeying the collation rules is ostensibly the correct thing to do but, 
until everyone starts using named character classes (which will never 
happen), it's not safe. The thing that worries me here is the 
inconsistency in Gentoo. LC_COLLATE="C" is sufficient to work around the 
issue but the above makes me wonder why we still need it.

--Kerin

Re: [gentoo-dev] LANG=en_GB.UTF-8 by default

[Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn]

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Mr. Aaron W. Swenson schrieb:
>> P.S. would be nice to have a wd_WD.UTF-8 with WD standing for
>> world, just a country is so 1900
>> 
> 
> wd_WD.UTF-8 is certainly a no go. WD doesn't match any ISO country 
> code. To support it, we'd have to create the necessary supporting 
> files and that would lead to a lot of work and headaches trying to 
> determine what should be where in what order, et cetera.

C or POSIX does not match any country code either. FWIW, Debian has
patched their glibc fork to remove the charset restriction on the C
locale, and added C.UTF-8. It has the "advantage" of not messing with
transliteration as LC_CTYPE=en_US.UTF-8 would.

http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=609306


Best regards,
Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn
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