From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org ([208.92.234.80] helo=lists.gentoo.org) by finch.gentoo.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1O0yfW-0004aR-FR for garchives@archives.gentoo.org; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 15:01:50 +0000 Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1A177E0928; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 15:01:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.gentoo.org (smtp.gentoo.org [140.211.166.183]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CC29E08DD for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 15:01:32 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA21B1B42DF for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 15:01:31 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at gentoo.org X-Spam-Score: -1.936 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.936 required=5.5 tests=[AWL=0.663, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from smtp.gentoo.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.gentoo.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fYHJwSLMUDq9 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 15:01:25 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-wy0-f177.google.com (mail-wy0-f177.google.com [74.125.82.177]) by smtp.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAFFE1B404C for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 15:01:24 +0000 (UTC) Received: by wyb40 with SMTP id 40so979194wyb.36 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 08:01:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:received:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=Fxd8UdN6YsK2SewNXHB35XH8f1BCaw5m6M9ziaVwWPs=; b=jLI9MTp6X7QnTTOhZPOidxKMKYy1BR3xFvuyiZi6uPBYtpnLzRCfgbNcFtL566G7Xr LF/6rVXXT1ftodrYaq1rG/pFsFk1XA8w7LolrFYxb1sNNYdpkR2xFHsCzQ8RfFMDVozX oNqSi1ndGD3ShZuLjrUJcCxetANLcobzYIXvY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=Vxmc0oVMS7dd9wrxEB43TMkM2LoinqiTlIL156hE9iMz4+2nMRTng2p/t8G2sjhE95 XZF6riVGZ+za6hfuxihkyePqxBVUPI8c1Jp/yradS+pyUsSiDI2ZLBBLcpfFHHpInKgd qWuKHzE5X3KfdNRYGo0d6lGoXclgEop5Njtn4= Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: denis.dupeyron@gmail.com Received: by 10.216.11.205 with HTTP; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 08:01:23 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <201004111616.41414.hwoarang@gentoo.org> References: <201004111616.41414.hwoarang@gentoo.org> Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 09:01:23 -0600 X-Google-Sender-Auth: b69438433fec7275 Received: by 10.216.180.82 with SMTP id i60mr1592826wem.107.1270998083611; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 08:01:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Subject: [gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-council] Policy regarding the inactive members From: Denis Dupeyron To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Archives-Salt: c7cda551-3e84-4749-b5cc-9b1386834297 X-Archives-Hash: 6059edea0aa922a39ff2187dea3b867e On Sun, Apr 11, 2010 at 7:16 AM, Markos Chandras wrote: > Hello folks, Hi Markos. A small detail first. You shouldn't cross post as it makes things confusing and often results in threads splitting. I have no problem with that because my email client merges threads but it's not the case for everybody. > Looking through the Council project page, the policy regarding the inactive > council members doesn't look optimal to me If you look at the summary of the last council meeting you will see that I was tasked to start discussions on rewriting GLEP 39. I have gathered input from various sources and will start posting the discussion topics real soon now. One of them is about voting by email which impacts the slacker rule. Your email will be particularly useful for the discussion of that topic. > 1) He is inactive in critical discussions ( such as the whole Phoenix > discussion ) for a certain period of time This is an interesting concept but finding a metric to gauge activity based on mailing list discussion is very difficult for two reasons. You use the example of the Phoenix discussion as one where council members should have posted to show their activity. However, although you consider me active you may have noted that I haven't publicly participated to it. This doesn't mean I don't care or don't have an opinion on it. But, and this is the other reason, much of the work I do is done in private. Not that I want to hide anything but I read threads and based on what developers and users say I ask questions, advise, (re-)motivate, or connect people, etc... And I do that in private because it doesn't make much sense to have those conversations on mailing lists, and also because you guys already see enough of me there. > 2) Fails to accomplish his role by supervising the Gentoo projects. Remember > we have plenty of Gentoo projects nearly dead and there is no way for us to > participate since contacting the project leaders is a no-go. Indirect > question: Is the council aware of the status of all projects? Shouldn't it > be since he is responsible for them? Another hard one to find a metric for. Beyond that, when I wrote my manifesto for last year's elections I talked with other developers about the possibility for the council to "audit" projects on a volunteer basis. By audit I meant and explained that the council would closely look at a project at their request and offer advice on short and long term operation. This wasn't well received at all, to the point that I didn't even bother adding it to my manifesto. It seems that project leads like to consider their project as their own little corner of Gentoo, and don't like too much to be interfered with. I'm personally OK with that. One of the reasons is that we rely on volunteer manpower and you can't force a volunteer to do anything (s)he doesn't want or like or (s)he'll leave. You have to be very careful when interfering with their work and find the right balance which will change from one situation to the other. One example I remember is when last year the kde project was considering going forward without a lead. It isn't technically a top-level project so it isn't required to have a lead. I thought that in the case of such a large project it was a bad idea to not have one though. I wanted to force an election but decided I would wait for the right opportunity to make it happen as smoothly as possible. Jorge will probably confirm that there was no arm wrestling involved. Making such things happen without hurting anybody and stepping on anybody's toes requires a lot of thinking and planning. From the opinion of a lot of devs it's about as far as one should go. By the way this is probably the kind of "leadership" Ben was referring to in his recent thread, although I didn't mention it there as I don't like bragging about these things. > I feel sorry to admit that the current council failed to become a good > leader for Gentoo and his inactivity demotivates both users and > developers I partly agree with you. I considered resigning last year when I saw the disaster from the inside. Ferris convinced me that the right thing to do was to stay on and do my best to keep things working and change them when necessary. Which I'm still trying to do, but right now I'm not sure I'll run next time. Denis.