Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] an official Gentoo wiki

[Ben de Groot <yngwin@gentoo.org>]

On 5 April 2010 03:13, Joshua Saddler <nightmorph@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Let the renderer take care of the final rendering, as really, tags and markup are all arbitrary. What should matter is how it appears in your webbrowser, since that'll vary from the source view anyways.

So why are you such a staunch defender of GuideXML then? If markup is
arbitrary really, then why not allow people to use what is convenient?

> . . . I hope you aren't seriously suggested rST as the wiki format.

I already did. I realize I may be in the minority, but I've become
quite a fan of the format. It's easy, quite elegant, has a full set of
features and is quite flexible. And it is widely used outside of
Gentoo. I hope there will be at least the possibility of using rst in
the Gentoo Wiki.

>> > Mediawiki mostly involves memorizing how many quote or tick marks you use.
>>
>> The beauty is: you don't have to memorize it, as it is just a click of
>> a button on the editor interface away.
>
> And not everyone will want to do that. I certainly don't like clicking around when it's easier and faster for me to just type the code myself.

So you don't have to. The wiki software in itself is not limiting, so
it's a question of configuration and agreeing on what to use.

> Really, you're mostly making a case for a graphical XML editor like Beacon, rather than making a case for a wiki. :)

That would already be a big improvement, yes.

> That's your problem, then. Do you know what semantic means?

Yes, I do. No need to be condescending.

> But you're not a web author,

I am, altho not as active lately.

> Why the hell do you keep bringing up HTML? Stop comparing GuideXML with HTML. Treat them as two separate languages, please.

Because clearly GuideXML is based on HTML. And anyone who knows HTML
will likely be confused by some features of GuideXML. I can't treat
them as completely separate, as there is too much overlap.

> I only mentioned GuideXML in the context of "it's easier to learn because it has fewer tags than HTML" -- you operate under the mistaken assumption that GuideXML should be *like* HTML,

No, I wish it weren't, but it *is* like HTML.

> and that HTML has too many tags.

I never said that.

> You assume that everyone comes from an HTML background and thus will be confused by GuideXML.

I would think that most people that become involved with Gentoo have
most likely been exposed to some HTML coding.

>> What do you mean? You can predefine styles in your CSS to express your
>> "textual color palette" (if I understand correctly what you meant by
>> that). There is advanced code syntax highlighting available, for
>> example using GeSHi.
>
> Okay, then you also need a way to get those styles into your document by coming up with new tags or wiki markup.
>
> <var> is a variable in GuideXML, and it'll be colored yellow. You mark this variable in a <pre> block with the <var> tag, which is created just for this purpose. How do you accomplish this in, say, Mediawiki syntax? Without trying to recycle some crap bit of HTML or tacking on inline styles.

You can use syntax highlighting or templates.

> Do all the wikis out there have solutions for adding custom markup/tags?

All? Probably not out of the box. You could always hack the source
code of course. ;)

> And yes, clearly GuideXML and metadata.xml are some of your weak areas if you have to keep looking up the basics. However, with practice you *will* get better. :)

If there would be a need for that, then yes, I would get better.

Anyway, this exchange has gone well beyond the original scope of the
thread, and neither of us seems to have come much closer to convincing
the other. So I'll leave it at that.

-- 
Ben de Groot
Gentoo Linux Qt project lead developer