[gentoo-dev] One request for the next SoC: non already-devs students

[gentoo-dev] One request for the next SoC: non already-devs students

[Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò]

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I know this is going to stir up quite some discussion, but I do think
it's worth trying requesting it at least.

In the past two years we had quite a few applications from students that
were already full-fledged Gentoo developers. I sincerely would like that
this year we put as a rule that Gentoo developers cannot partecipate in
Summer of Code as students for Gentoo.

I'm not asking to penalise Gentoo developers are students. But I
sincerely think the main goal of Summer of Code is to allow new people
to enter the scene of Free Software, to understand how Free Software
projects work and so on. Gentoo Developers are already pretty well
"inside" this world.

I think it should be a self-made decision to abstain from applying as a
student for what you already partecipate in, but as such concerns don't
seem to be widespread (at least as the last two years shown), I'm asking
for a formal decision to all the developers. If that is requested, I'm
even willing to bring this in front of the council.

Gentoo's ranks are quite reduced nowadays, and a few persons have shown
conerns about our current recruiting methods being able to judge clearly
technical and social skills, as well as the time one is ready to pour
into the project. I think SoC could be used as a pretty good recruiting
method: as you are going to work quite a bit with the student, you can
easily judge availability and technical and social skills. Leaving SoC
applications open to developers means wasting this opportunity.

There are many other organisations partecipating, I think it would be
quite feasible for Gentoo developers wanting to be a student SoC to
choose another one, in which they are not involved already. Yes it's
easier for them to do something for Gentoo as they are already
contributing, but that is not the point of Summer of Code, the point is
to introduce new people into projects, not giving money to people to do
what they already do.

And just to take a stance, even if this request is to be rejected, I'm
not going to mentor a student that is already a Gentoo developer, for
sure.

So to be clear, I'm not trying to look down to anybody, I don't even
want to stop people from being paid for their work. I just wish that we
can focus this opportunity to improve the Gentoo project as a whole.

-- 
Diego "Flameeyes" Pettenò
http://blog.flameeyes.eu/


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Re: [gentoo-dev] One request for the next SoC: non already-devs students

[Thilo Bangert]

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> But I 
> sincerely think the main goal of Summer of Code is to allow new people
> to enter the scene of Free Software, to understand how Free Software
> projects work and so on. 

it's not just what you "sincerely think"! I most certainly think, you have 
a valid point.

from http://code.google.com/soc/2008/faqs.html#0.1_goals:

Google Summer of Code has several goals:

  - Get more open source code created and released for the benefit of all;
  - Inspire young developers to begin participating in open source
    development;
  - Help open source projects identify and bring in new developers and
    committers;
  - Provide students in Computer Science and related fields the
    opportunity to do work related to their academic pursuits during the
    summer (think "flip bits, not burgers");
  - Give students more exposure to real-world software development
    scenarios (e.g., distributed development, software licensing
    questions, mailing-list etiquette).

--
kind regards
Thilo

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Re: [gentoo-dev] One request for the next SoC: non already-devs students

[Richard Freeman]

Thilo Bangert wrote:
> it's not just what you "sincerely think"! I most certainly think, you have 
> a valid point.
> 
> from http://code.google.com/soc/2008/faqs.html#0.1_goals:
> 

And yet from the same site:

7. Can students working on an open source project continue to work on it
as part of Google Summer of Code?

Yes, as long as they meet all other requirements for program
eligibility. Students should be sure to note their previous relationship
with the project in their applications. New work will need to be done
for the project as part of participation in GSoC.

> Google Summer of Code has several goals:
>   - Inspire young developers to begin participating in open source
>     development;

Do we inspire them by telling them that anybody who has made this choice
in the past is not to be rewarded financially for doing so?


A bigger concern is this.  Which is better for gentoo?  Taking somebody
who has never worked on gentoo and paying them money to possibly
accomplish something on the project, or taking somebody who is already
doing quite a bit and pay them so that they can accomplish even more
without the distraction of a day job?

I do think that recruitment is important, but I think it is a bit of a
slap on the face to those who do volunteer to suggest that they're good
enough to work for us but not good enough to pay (when it doesn't even
cost us a dime to do so).

Volunteers work on the stuff they want to work on - SoC isn't so much
about paying people to work on Open Source as much as it is about
enabling people to work on Open Source when otherwise they'd have to do
something else to pay the bills.  If somebody doesn't currently want to
volunteer for Gentoo, why would they want to after the paychecks stop?
And if they do currently volunteer for Gentoo, why would we force them
to get involved with some other Open Source project if they wanted to be
paid as part of the SoC?
-- 
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-dev] Re: One request for the next SoC: non already-devs students

[Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò]

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Richard Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> writes:

> Do we inspire them by telling them that anybody who has made this choice
> in the past is not to be rewarded financially for doing so?

This brings up a different point of view too. Why should just somebody
be rewarded financially and not someone else? Why only people who are
still in school, and not people who left school? I don't even want to
think what might happen if there was something like Debian's DunkTank
flame in here.

> A bigger concern is this.  Which is better for gentoo?  Taking somebody
> who has never worked on gentoo and paying them money to possibly
> accomplish something on the project, or taking somebody who is already
> doing quite a bit and pay them so that they can accomplish even more
> without the distraction of a day job?

Do you think that $4500 (which is, by now, less than €3000) during the
summer will stop anybody already contributing from finding a day job? I
sincerely don't think so.

It does, though, help new people to _try_ working on Free
Software. Students paid for SoC don't need to find a temporary job for
that summer to build up experience (which is what I suppose most
students would like to do, you can't expect a huge pay for three months
of work _in the summer_), it's a good pay, for three months of work, but
it's far from being a pay good enough for anybody to actively stop
looking for a job. They will have to understand, though, that Gentoo is
not a job and you won't end up always being paid to help that.

Sincerely, I find the "without the distraction of a day job" argument to
be pretty silly. How can an eventual, possible, not sure at all, and for
sure not stable, check of €3000 once an year stop anybody from finding a
dayjob? It's like counting on winning the lottery twice an year to
sustain yourself. I live with my parents still, in the past years I had
unstable jobs (paying more than €3000) during the start of the year and
then had almost nothing between spring and winter, I have no monthly
expenses, and I still struggle to find money to buy a new box.

It might be an added incentive to get experience in Free Software rather
than as a third-grade programmer helper in a small software company with
most of the stable programmers taking weeks off for the summer, but for
sure can't replace a stable job.

-- 
Diego "Flameeyes" Pettenò
http://blog.flameeyes.eu/

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: One request for the next SoC: non already-devs students

[Wulf C. Krueger]

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On Sunday, 02. March 2008 20:25:09 Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò wrote:
> > Do we inspire them by telling them that anybody who has made this
> > choice in the past is not to be rewarded financially for doing so?
> This brings up a different point of view too. 

From my point of view it's pretty simple: I don't see us generating enough 
interest among people not yet associated with Gentoo to successfully 
participate.

Your idea would be fine with me if we had enough people wanting to do it 
but I don't really see that happen.

> Why should just somebody be rewarded financially and not someone else?

Because as a student people usually need the money more.

> Why only people who are still in school, and not people who left school?

People who already left school hopefully have a job to pay their bills. If 
not, GSoC won't help much either as you stated correctly.

-- 
Best regards, Wulf

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: One request for the next SoC: non already-devs students

[Brian Harring]

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On Sun, Mar 02, 2008 at 08:57:03PM +0100, Wulf C. Krueger wrote:
> On Sunday, 02. March 2008 20:25:09 Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò wrote:
> > > Do we inspire them by telling them that anybody who has made this
> > > choice in the past is not to be rewarded financially for doing so?
> > This brings up a different point of view too. 
> 
> From my point of view it's pretty simple: I don't see us generating enough 
> interest among people not yet associated with Gentoo to successfully 
> participate.
>
> Your idea would be fine with me if we had enough people wanting to do it 
> but I don't really see that happen.

It could be argued that devs have an inherint advantage- they have far 
greater access to devs to hash out their ideas, aware of what issues 
the distro is facing, etc.  All of that adds up giving devs a better 
range of prospects for proposals and ironing out their proposals.

To be clear also, I'm not implying any backhand dealings here- just 
that I view it as a bit of a closed system that makes it easier for 
those already in the circle to succeed.

Personally, I'm not a fan of a flat out "no devs allowed"- a 
percentile limit however, seems like a good step towards trying to 
enable a focus on new blood (or even those new to FOSS).

Basically, devs have it easy in hammering out a proposal from where 
I'm sitting- I'd like to see gains in trying to enable new blood, 
whether doing some limiting of devs or a greater outreach.  I'm not 
suggesting crap proposals should be accepted purely because they're 
from non-dev also, although I'd be tempted to give prioritization to 
nondevs if it's neck in neck.


> > Why should just somebody be rewarded financially and not someone else?
> 
> Because as a student people usually need the money more.

SoC is limited to students anyways, thus kind of moot continuing that 
particular line of discussion...

~brian

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Re: [gentoo-dev] One request for the next SoC: non already-devs students

[Robin H. Johnson]

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On Sun, Mar 02, 2008 at 04:47:28PM +0100, Diego 'Flameeyes' Petten?? wrote:
> In the past two years we had quite a few applications from students that
> were already full-fledged Gentoo developers. I sincerely would like that
> this year we put as a rule that Gentoo developers cannot partecipate in
> Summer of Code as students for Gentoo.
+1 from me.

More fresh meat^H^H^H^Hdevs are one of the good things that should come
out of the SoC.

Also, existing devs have their own projects to take care of, while the
students should have much better shot at it, without having to leave
existing Gentoo stuff to bit-rot temporarily.

-- 
Robin Hugh Johnson
Gentoo Linux Developer & Infra Guy
E-Mail     : robbat2@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP   : 11AC BA4F 4778 E3F6 E4ED  F38E B27B 944E 3488 4E85

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Re: [gentoo-dev] One request for the next SoC: non already-devs students

[Alec Warner]

On 3/2/08, Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò <flameeyes@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  I know this is going to stir up quite some discussion, but I do think
>  it's worth trying requesting it at least.
>
>  In the past two years we had quite a few applications from students that
>  were already full-fledged Gentoo developers. I sincerely would like that
>  this year we put as a rule that Gentoo developers cannot partecipate in
>  Summer of Code as students for Gentoo.
>
>  I'm not asking to penalise Gentoo developers are students. But I
>  sincerely think the main goal of Summer of Code is to allow new people
>  to enter the scene of Free Software, to understand how Free Software
>  projects work and so on. Gentoo Developers are already pretty well
>  "inside" this world.

OK

>
>  I think it should be a self-made decision to abstain from applying as a
>  student for what you already partecipate in, but as such concerns don't
>  seem to be widespread (at least as the last two years shown), I'm asking
>  for a formal decision to all the developers. If that is requested, I'm
>  even willing to bring this in front of the council.

The summer of code faq specifically addresses this question; so
obviously it was a concern and they dealt with it.

>
>  Gentoo's ranks are quite reduced nowadays, and a few persons have shown
>  conerns about our current recruiting methods being able to judge clearly
>  technical and social skills, as well as the time one is ready to pour
>  into the project. I think SoC could be used as a pretty good recruiting
>  method: as you are going to work quite a bit with the student, you can
>  easily judge availability and technical and social skills. Leaving SoC
>  applications open to developers means wasting this opportunity.

OK

>
>  There are many other organisations partecipating, I think it would be
>  quite feasible for Gentoo developers wanting to be a student SoC to
>  choose another one, in which they are not involved already. Yes it's
>  easier for them to do something for Gentoo as they are already
>  contributing, but that is not the point of Summer of Code, the point is
>  to introduce new people into projects, not giving money to people to do
>  what they already do.

Your entire argument is based on the assumption that the Summer of
Code program's primary goal is to recruit new developers for Open
Source projects.  While this is one goal I am unsure if holding it
above the others is necessary.

>
>  And just to take a stance, even if this request is to be rejected, I'm
>  not going to mentor a student that is already a Gentoo developer, for
>  sure.

Your choice, as I badly wrote in the guide[1], mentors must be williing.

>
>  So to be clear, I'm not trying to look down to anybody, I don't even
>  want to stop people from being paid for their work. I just wish that we
>  can focus this opportunity to improve the Gentoo project as a whole.

I disagree and I will mentor anyone who meets Google's submission
requirements and who writes a good proposal.

-Alec

[1] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/userrel/soc/mentoring.xml
--
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] One request for the next SoC: non already-devs students

[Alec Warner]

On 3/2/08, Alec Warner <antarus@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On 3/2/08, Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò <flameeyes@gmail.com> wrote:
>  >
>  >  I know this is going to stir up quite some discussion, but I do think
>  >  it's worth trying requesting it at least.
>  >
>  >  In the past two years we had quite a few applications from students that
>  >  were already full-fledged Gentoo developers. I sincerely would like that
>  >  this year we put as a rule that Gentoo developers cannot partecipate in
>  >  Summer of Code as students for Gentoo.
>  >
>  >  I'm not asking to penalise Gentoo developers are students. But I
>  >  sincerely think the main goal of Summer of Code is to allow new people
>  >  to enter the scene of Free Software, to understand how Free Software
>  >  projects work and so on. Gentoo Developers are already pretty well
>  >  "inside" this world.
>
>
> OK
>
>
>  >
>  >  I think it should be a self-made decision to abstain from applying as a
>  >  student for what you already partecipate in, but as such concerns don't
>  >  seem to be widespread (at least as the last two years shown), I'm asking
>  >  for a formal decision to all the developers. If that is requested, I'm
>  >  even willing to bring this in front of the council.
>
>
> The summer of code faq specifically addresses this question; so
>  obviously it was a concern and they dealt with it.

Brian suggested I add a link, so ;)

http://code.google.com/soc/2008/faqs.html#0.1_already_opensource

>
>
>  >
>  >  Gentoo's ranks are quite reduced nowadays, and a few persons have shown
>  >  conerns about our current recruiting methods being able to judge clearly
>  >  technical and social skills, as well as the time one is ready to pour
>  >  into the project. I think SoC could be used as a pretty good recruiting
>  >  method: as you are going to work quite a bit with the student, you can
>  >  easily judge availability and technical and social skills. Leaving SoC
>  >  applications open to developers means wasting this opportunity.
>
>
> OK
>
>
>  >
>  >  There are many other organisations partecipating, I think it would be
>  >  quite feasible for Gentoo developers wanting to be a student SoC to
>  >  choose another one, in which they are not involved already. Yes it's
>  >  easier for them to do something for Gentoo as they are already
>  >  contributing, but that is not the point of Summer of Code, the point is
>  >  to introduce new people into projects, not giving money to people to do
>  >  what they already do.
>
>
> Your entire argument is based on the assumption that the Summer of
>  Code program's primary goal is to recruit new developers for Open
>  Source projects.  While this is one goal I am unsure if holding it
>  above the others is necessary.
>
>
>  >
>  >  And just to take a stance, even if this request is to be rejected, I'm
>  >  not going to mentor a student that is already a Gentoo developer, for
>  >  sure.
>
>
> Your choice, as I badly wrote in the guide[1], mentors must be williing.
>
>
>  >
>  >  So to be clear, I'm not trying to look down to anybody, I don't even
>  >  want to stop people from being paid for their work. I just wish that we
>  >  can focus this opportunity to improve the Gentoo project as a whole.
>
>
> I disagree and I will mentor anyone who meets Google's submission
>  requirements and who writes a good proposal.
>
>  -Alec
>
>  [1] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/userrel/soc/mentoring.xml
>
--
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-dev] Re: One request for the next SoC: non already-devs students

[Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò]

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"Alec Warner" <antarus@gentoo.org> writes:

> Your entire argument is based on the assumption that the Summer of
> Code program's primary goal is to recruit new developers for Open
> Source projects.  While this is one goal I am unsure if holding it
> above the others is necessary.

I know it's not the _sole_ goal of Summer of Code as intended by
Google. But I do think it should be the main goal for Gentoo as a
project. I also knew it was already discussed in the FAQ, and that there
is no _Google_ rule stopping Gentoo developers from partecipating as
Gentoo students. And that is why I'm bringing up the point on Gentoo
ground.

If this works, I'd take this time to add this as an official point for
the next council meeting.

-- 
Diego "Flameeyes" Pettenò
http://blog.flameeyes.eu/

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[gentoo-dev] Re: One request for the next SoC: non already-devs students

[Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò]

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flameeyes@gmail.com (Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò) writes:

> In the past two years we had quite a few applications from students that
> were already full-fledged Gentoo developers. I sincerely would like that
> this year we put as a rule that Gentoo developers cannot partecipate in
> Summer of Code as students for Gentoo.

Just to add material, Debian is also discussing a similar issue, see
http://www.lucas-nussbaum.net/blog/?p=280 .

-- 
Diego "Flameeyes" Pettenò
http://blog.flameeyes.eu/

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[gentoo-dev] Re: One request for the next SoC: non already-devs students

[Christian Faulhammer]

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Hi,

flameeyes@gmail.com (Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò):
> In the past two years we had quite a few applications from students
> that were already full-fledged Gentoo developers. I sincerely would
> like that this year we put as a rule that Gentoo developers cannot
> partecipate in Summer of Code as students for Gentoo.

 Not a rule, but maybe say that outsiders are more wanted than
insiders...no strict rule here, please.  You lock-out some potential.

V-Li

-- 
Christian Faulhammer, Gentoo Lisp project
<URL:http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/lisp/>, #gentoo-lisp on FreeNode

<URL:http://www.faulhammer.org/>

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