From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from lists.gentoo.org ([140.105.134.102] helo=robin.gentoo.org) by nuthatch.gentoo.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1GJQQi-00014K-L3 for garchives@archives.gentoo.org; Sat, 02 Sep 2006 08:00:41 +0000 Received: from robin.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by robin.gentoo.org (8.13.8/8.13.6) with SMTP id k827wHtj026124; Sat, 2 Sep 2006 07:58:17 GMT Received: from smtp.gentoo.org (smtp.gentoo.org [140.211.166.183]) by robin.gentoo.org (8.13.8/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k827u01J008929 for ; Sat, 2 Sep 2006 07:56:00 GMT Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E22464BDF for ; Sat, 2 Sep 2006 07:56:00 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.gentoo.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp.gentoo.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23433-10 for ; Sat, 2 Sep 2006 07:55:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87A0764BCD for ; Sat, 2 Sep 2006 07:55:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1GJQLn-0001cw-3y for gentoo-dev@gentoo.org; Sat, 02 Sep 2006 09:55:35 +0200 Received: from host-81-190-46-45.lodz.mm.pl ([81.190.46.45]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 02 Sep 2006 09:55:35 +0200 Received: from siryes by host-81-190-46-45.lodz.mm.pl with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sat, 02 Sep 2006 09:55:35 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org From: Wiktor Wandachowicz Subject: [gentoo-dev] Re: Democracy: No silver bullet Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 07:55:28 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <44ECF00D.7050107@gentoo.org> Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org User-Agent: Loom/3.14 (http://gmane.org/) X-Loom-IP: 81.190.46.45 (Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; pl; rv:1.8.0.6) Gecko/20060810 Firefox/1.5.0.6) Sender: news X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at gentoo.org X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 required=5.5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Archives-Salt: 412ca85e-fdc0-410e-8bdd-6ec93e787c75 X-Archives-Hash: 341421f077bb29ed18bd4babc206e58d Donnie Berkholz wrote: > When I think about where Gentoo was when we turned into a democracy > years ago, and where Gentoo is now, I don't see much of a difference on > the large scale. We lack any global vision for where Gentoo is going, we > can't agree on who our audience is, and everyone's just working on > pretty much whatever they feel like. > > When I joined, Daniel Robbins was in charge, period. Seemant Kulleen and > Jon Portnoy were basically his lieutenants. What Daniel said was what > happened, and woe to anyone who angered him. This generally worked out > pretty well, but _as Gentoo grew, it didn't scale_. Everything > significant still had to go through Daniel for personal approval. While I'm not a developer, I was thinking along similar lines some time ago. Or make it like a year ago? Good leadership is important in many undertakings of the real life, including (but not limited to) open-source projects. After some time spent using Gentoo some comparisons against other known projects naturally came to my mind. Linux kernel, Debian, PCLinuxOS - they were first to think about. From these I concluded that in some brilliant cases a project with a strong leadership, not fearing to make unpopular decisions sometimes, progresses ahead nicely in the long run. From the aforementioned three, Debian with its social contract, goals and the way it is maintained is an exceptional phenomenon. It seems to me that the key to a success lies in a good, respectful leadership, trust and good communication. I'm sure that at least some of you read kerneltrap, but this recent topic concerning NetBSD future (or lack thereof?) has some sad truths in it [1]. While I do not fear end of the Gentoo project (far from it!) I too sense some lack of a general vision of where is it going now. Not delving into philosophical considerations of democracy vs dictatorship I feel that the current democracy approach Gentoo utilizes makes sense. But there are many examples of healthy democracies, where citizens are seriously involved in the process (western Europe countries, in general) as well as weak democracies, where even though the process exists citizens feel powerless (like in some new democracies in eastern Europe countries). I suppose that there is a way that Gentoo can follow, only that its leaders, developers and users need to see it clearly. Is there a publicly visible page that contains current goals for new releases? Where all sub-project leaders could add their own goals, coherent with the general vision? I couldn't find it, but maybe I haven't looked in the right places? And if it doesnt' exist I am convinced that it should be created, say, for 2007.0 release at least. Ubuntu has such plans, for one, so all developers and users are able to learn what to expect from the upcoming release. It also serves as a check list of what the expected goals were and what the outcome was. Maybe I should raise such concerns to the User Representatives first, but the overall flow of ideas was IMO rather worth to be sent to the mailing list in a complete form. If you feel otherwise, I apologize. With best regards, Wiktor Wandachowicz [1] NetBSD: Founder Fears End Of Project http://kerneltrap.org/node/7061 -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list