From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970
Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org ([208.92.234.80] helo=lists.gentoo.org)
by finch.gentoo.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60)
(envelope-from <gentoo-dev+bounces-40475-garchives=archives.gentoo.org@lists.gentoo.org>)
id 1NyFlL-0000kZ-V4
for garchives@archives.gentoo.org; Sun, 04 Apr 2010 02:40:36 +0000
Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 83462E06EC;
Sun, 4 Apr 2010 02:40:30 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from mail-qy0-f180.google.com (mail-qy0-f180.google.com [209.85.221.180])
by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50F35E09B7
for <gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org>; Sun, 4 Apr 2010 02:40:05 +0000 (UTC)
Received: by qyk10 with SMTP id 10so311094qyk.26
for <gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org>; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 19:40:04 -0700 (PDT)
Precedence: bulk
List-Post: <mailto:gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org>
List-Help: <mailto:gentoo-dev+help@lists.gentoo.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:gentoo-dev+unsubscribe@lists.gentoo.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:gentoo-dev+subscribe@lists.gentoo.org>
List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail <gentoo-dev.gentoo.org>
X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org
Reply-to: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: antarus@scriptkitty.com
Received: by 10.229.46.11 with HTTP; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 19:40:04 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <20100403184831.2525766f@angelstorm>
References: <1270286192.18734.3.camel@homer.ob.libexec.de>
<20100403184831.2525766f@angelstorm>
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2010 19:40:04 -0700
X-Google-Sender-Auth: 7c835653638cb108
Received: by 10.229.38.147 with SMTP id b19mr496119qce.102.1270348804625; Sat,
03 Apr 2010 19:40:04 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <g2lb41005391004031940oeb6fa346qdefaa60ed432a757@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] Is Gentoo dying?
From: Alec Warner <antarus@gentoo.org>
To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Archives-Salt: 58c44179-5b09-42e2-8642-c0821c7156d9
X-Archives-Hash: 38509ea63bcedeec5365c67afd022289
On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 6:48 PM, Joshua Saddler <nightmorph@gentoo.org> wrot=
e:
> On Sat, 03 Apr 2010 11:16:32 +0200
> Tobias Scherbaum <dertobi123@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
>> - Our formerly outstanding documentation still is somewhat maintained,
>> but that's it. I haven't seen any new additions (both to our docs, but
>> also to our docs-team) for years. People are constantly asking for a
>> documentation wiki, but ...
>
> Thanks for sh**ting on my efforts. There are lots of visible changes, and=
I make a point of getting the word out when a new guide turns up in /doc/.=
I blog about the new docs I add, and I spend awhile working with contribut=
ors to make sure we get good stuff out there and that it's constantly updat=
ed -- the Openbox guide Nate Zachary wrote comes to mind. I'm also always w=
orking with developers who are writing docs in their spare time, coaching '=
em through the process, assisting with GuideXML, taking patches, *and* crea=
ting patches and updates for devs who are posting documents in /proj/ and i=
n their personal devspace. But I guess that doesn't mean anything to you.
>
> Oh yes, and I spend hours each week constantly updating docs based on the=
inflow of bugs, forum reports, and I constantly re-read each one and impro=
ve stuff where I can on-the-fly. Not everything has a bug tracker, but the =
end result is still a visible difference in the stuff you see on the websit=
e.
You need to take comments less personally. If there is a constant
stream of updates then point him at your cia comment log or similar;
no need to pick a fight about it. Certainly when compared to our
documentation of old I think the rate of new documents and document
updates is likely less now than it was then. Perhaps what Tobias is
trying to convey is that he wants more people to contribute and write
documents.
>
>> - Website redesign - we had a contest some years ago, got a winner,
>> someone started to adapt the design and somewhat that project fall
>> asleep.
>
> We've added quite a bit, with the automated feeds and whatnot. And the si=
debar stuff. And the revamping of our releases page, and lots of other area=
s. I've added lots of stuff; I guess you just haven't noticed.
Lots of content sure; not so much on the design side. I personally
like our website and I think the design is fine (no need to put too
much effort into it IMHO.) but if other folks want to spend time on it
I'm not going to say no. I still think something like taking what we
have and doing the redesign on non-gentoo stuff and then being like
'yo dawg I heard you like websites so i put a website in your website
so you can browse while you browse' or similar is the way to iterate.
>
>> - Speaking of our website, PR ... guess there's nothing more to add.
>
> Thanks for sh**ting on my efforts here, too. Take SCALE last month. I gue=
ss all the work I did to organize SCALE and go out and make a difference wi=
th our (potential) users by talking with them doesn't mean anything. All th=
e word-of-mouth I've done with folks before and after SCALE, even my cowork=
ers must not count for much.
>
> * * *
>
> I would have expected such this kind of negative, abrasive email from a u=
ser, but to see such a sensationalist letter coming from a developer is dis=
appointing, to say the least. I expect better from you. Because whether you=
realize it or not, your email can only come across as denigrating my effor=
ts, and everyone else who puts in hard work on (actually visible!) changes.
>
> Your email was inflammatory and offensive, but not in the way that motiva=
tes me to do more or do anything different. It came across as extremely dem=
otivational.
>
Well it certainly hi-lights one area; that we often fail at
communicating what we are doing. The pr team has some great people on
it who do great stuff (not including me; I tend to do as little as
possible.) Maybe Tobias is blissfully unaware of the efforts of the
team. Maybe he thinks the team can do better. I don't see him saying
'well the pr team sucks balls!' I see him saying 'well the pr team is
very quiet.' I don't think that is too far from the truth; although
certainly pr@ is active it doesn't look like it from anyone not on
that alias (SCALE aside.)
-A