[gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree

[gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree

[Fabio Erculiani]

Hi all,
I'm sure I'll find some sabayon-hater here, but my purpose won't be
answering to them.
I offer my help to fix DEPEND/RDEPEND split issues which is causing me
a lot of headaches (along with localizations).
For reference, please have a look here: http://planet.sabayonlinux.org/?p=105

After having discussed with one of your dev about it, he suggested me
to ask here looking for a mentor. If there's anything I can do, I'm
ready.

Despite some of you might think, I love Gentoo since 2001 :)

Cheers
-- 
Fabio Erculiani
Information and Communication Technologies Consultant
Sabayon Linux Chief Architect
http://www.sabayonlinux.org
-- 
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree

[Jan Kundrát]

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Fabio Erculiani wrote:
> I offer my help to fix DEPEND/RDEPEND split issues which is causing me
> a lot of headaches (along with localizations).
> For reference, please have a look here: http://planet.sabayonlinux.org/?p=105

"The name lxnay@sabayonlinux.org is not a valid username. Either you 
misspelled it, or the person has not registered for a Bugzilla 
account.", that's all what our bugzilla knows about you.

Either you're using a different e-mail address there or you really 
haven't reported a single bug to us in that seven years.

It would help if you file bugs against respective packages or provide a 
list of examples mentioning what exactly needs fixing. You can't 
reasonably expect us to act based on a post in $random_blog.

With love,
-jkt

-- 
cd /local/pub && more beer > /dev/mouth


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree

[Fabio Erculiani]

Hi Jan,
I'm registered with lxnay <at> lxnaydesign <dot> net.
I know what you mean, but take into account I don't have much time
left for the reporting. What I ask is either build a communication
channel or getting me able to fix stuff, obviously after having
contacted the respective maintainers and talked about the issue. Well,
I am saying this utopic thing just because I don't even have time to
track down all the issues I found and then report, most of the time I
end up copying the ebuild from the tree into our overlay and fix. I
tried to report a few bugs, but the response time is quite big and I
always have to be quick.
So, to sum up, if we can build a better communication way it could be
useful for both sides.


On 3/13/08, Jan Kundrát <jkt@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Fabio Erculiani wrote:
>  > I offer my help to fix DEPEND/RDEPEND split issues which is causing me
>  > a lot of headaches (along with localizations).
>  > For reference, please have a look here: http://planet.sabayonlinux.org/?p=105
>
>
> "The name lxnay@sabayonlinux.org is not a valid username. Either you
>  misspelled it, or the person has not registered for a Bugzilla
>  account.", that's all what our bugzilla knows about you.
>
>  Either you're using a different e-mail address there or you really
>  haven't reported a single bug to us in that seven years.
>
>  It would help if you file bugs against respective packages or provide a
>  list of examples mentioning what exactly needs fixing. You can't
>  reasonably expect us to act based on a post in $random_blog.
>
>  With love,
>  -jkt
>
>
>  --
>  cd /local/pub && more beer > /dev/mouth
>
>
>


-- 
Fabio Erculiani
Information and Communication Technologies Consultant
Sabayon Linux Chief Architect
http://www.sabayonlinux.org
--
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree

[Robin H. Johnson]

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On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 12:57:29AM +0100, Fabio Erculiani wrote:
> So, to sum up, if we can build a better communication way it could be
> useful for both sides.
- "Most of the Gentoo ebuilds don't have the two lists split"
I'd certainly welcome hearing about any supposed DEPEND/RDEPEND issues
in my packages (both those I directly maintain as well as a good swath
of those I maintain via herds), as well cases where you see a some deps
not declared at all (and also in the indirect deps).

- "There are TOO MANY USE flags while instead packages SHOULD BE split"
No. In general, Gentoo is one package per upstream idea of a package.
It's been that way for a long time, and I don't foresee any specific
need to change it soon. Even if you did, there are still at least the
same number of total combinations to test, if not more. If you really
want to make progress here, get various upstreams to split stuff better.

- "Localizations should be split too"
Again, get upstream to put them separately, for all cases where they are
just files that are automatically detected, and nothing regarding
available locales is compiled or configured into the binaries or
libraries.

- "Even if I found a lot of these bugs daily..."
If you want to report bugs quickly, see pybugz, or use the Bugzilla
templating facility (I prefer it myself). Response time is large for any
bugs generally, because we do a lot of stuff. It's in your best
interests to send the fixes back to Gentoo, because that means you don't
need to continually port fixes in your overlay when newer versions are
released.

For a lot of these issues, I'd love either a patch that you've uploaded,
or a direct link to a changeset on some VCS. Note: NOT the new file, but
a link directly to the changeset.

- "What I am asking Gentoo Foundation is, let me fix them"
Apply to be a developer, then you can fix them. I don't personally have
any opinion (positive or negative) about Sabayon, but a former coworker
of mine was a big fan.

-- 
Robin Hugh Johnson
Gentoo Linux Developer & Infra Guy
E-Mail     : robbat2@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP   : 11AC BA4F 4778 E3F6 E4ED  F38E B27B 944E 3488 4E85

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree

[Alec Warner]

On 3/12/08, Robin H. Johnson <robbat2@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 12:57:29AM +0100, Fabio Erculiani wrote:
>  > So, to sum up, if we can build a better communication way it could be
>  > useful for both sides.

I'm going to steal robin's issue summary ;)

>
> - "Most of the Gentoo ebuilds don't have the two lists split"

Did we ever set RDEPEND=DEPEND or vice versa automatically?  Maybe it
never went into EAPI=0.  In either case I'm sure most maintainers
would appreciate feedback in this area.

>
>  - "There are TOO MANY USE flags while instead packages SHOULD BE split"

So I would be willing to challenge the age old assertion that robin
mentioned.  The historical problem is that users need to be able to
find shit.  The easiest way for them to do so is for us to use the
same names as upstream.

mysql is just mysql; it isn't mysql-server, it isn't mysql-server-5,
it isn't mysql-client-yourmom.  It is just mysql.

So a bigger problem for you is that you want 2 packages really.  1
client and 1 server.  THe only way to do that now is to build mysql
twice and the existing binpkg format doesn't let you do that?

>
>  - "Localizations should be split too"

As robin stated this is really more of an upstream problem.  I really
don't see why we can't design software that just loads localization
shit at runtime.

Maybe some eselect-localization thing could be used to help fetch
extra languages; certainly I think rebuilding the entire package to
add languages is BS.

We could have eselect parse the DEPEND string and LINGUAS to try and
figure out what languages a package supports and installing new
languages would just be eselect-localization CPV +/-lang.

Of course I know jack shit about localization so maybe someone who
knows more can comment ;)

-Alec
-- 
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree

[Denis Dupeyron]

On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 12:35 AM, Fabio Erculiani
<lxnay@sabayonlinux.org> wrote:
>  After having discussed with one of your dev about it, he suggested me
>  to ask here looking for a mentor. If there's anything I can do, I'm
>  ready.

On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 12:57 AM, Fabio Erculiani
<lxnay@sabayonlinux.org> wrote:
>  I know what you mean, but take into account I don't have much time
>  left for the reporting. What I ask is [...]  getting me able to fix stuff

So you don't have time to file bugs but you would have time to fix
them ? Interesting...

In any case, we require users to have a consistent history of helping
the project before they are considered for recruitment. What you are
doing for Sabayon is great but it can't be taken into account. Please
find below some information that may be useful to get you started.

There are many ways you can help. Two good ways to start helping out
are proposing solutions for bugs [1] and contributing to an overlay
[2] like Sunrise for example [3]. There is more information on how to
get involved with overlay development at [4]. When your contributions
become significant enough, developers may contact you (or you can
contact them). You may also want to have a look at the staffing needs
page [5].

You will need to read the Gentoo Documentation Resources [6], and more
specifically the Gentoo Developer Handbook [7] and the Gentoo
Development Guide [8].

Another way to help, especially for non-technical projects, is to
contact people directly [9]. Be aware that they can be away though, so
be patient, try others on the same project, and finally get back to us
in case you fail to reach anybody.

Do not hesitate to contact recruiters in the future in case you need
more information.

Best regards,
Denis.

[1] http://bugs.gentoo.org/
[2] http://overlays.gentoo.org/
[3] http://overlays.gentoo.org/proj/sunrise/
[4] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/overlays/userguide.xml#doc_chap3
[5] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/staffing-needs/
[6] http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/index.xml?catid=gentoodev
[7] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/handbook/handbook.xml
[8] http://devmanual.gentoo.org/
[9] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/index.xml?showlevel=2
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree

[Thilo Bangert]

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> end up copying the ebuild from the tree into our overlay and fix.

great! where is it? does it have a webvc or trac interface?
thanks

Thilo



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree

[Fabio Erculiani]

media-libs/x264-svn -> dev-lang/yasm
dev-libs/lzo -> dev-lang/nasm
sys-apps/attr -> sys-devel/autoconf
x11-libs/qt:3 (I reported it a while ago and it got fixed, it was a real mess)
net-dialup/capisuite -> sys-devel/autoconf
dev-libs/xmlsec -> sys-devel/autoconf
x11-misc/fluxbg -> sys-devel/autoconf
media-video/effectv -> dev-lang/nasm
net-voip/linphone -> dev-lang/nasm
media-sound/gogo -> dev-lang/nasm
sys-boot/lilo -> sys-devel/bin86
app-text/iso-codes -> sys-devel/automake

These depend on sys-devel/bison, are they correct?
app-office/mdbtools-0.6_pre1-r1
www-servers/boa-0.94.14_rc21
media-video/sswf-1.8.0-r1
net-firewall/itval-1.0
app-office/openoffice-2.3.1-r1
sci-geosciences/grass-6.0.1
sci-geosciences/grass-6.2.1
media-gfx/gliv-1.9.6

These depend on sys-devel/make
sci-geosciences/grass-6.0.1
sci-geosciences/grass-6.2.1

These depend on sys-devel/gcc (remember, only RDEPENDs here)
app-text/pdftk-1.41
net-irc/inspircd-1.1.14
app-benchmarks/piozone-1.0-r2
sci-chemistry/xdrawchem-1.9.9
sci-geosciences/grass-6.0.1
dev-lang/mono-1.2.6-r1
sci-geosciences/grass-6.2.1
www-apache/anyterm-1.1.16
dev-lang/ghc-6.8.2
sci-libs/hdf5-1.6.6

x11-proto/xineramaproto:
gnome-extra/gnome-screensaver-2.18.2-r1
media-video/ogle-0.9.2-r1

sabayon server # python reagent database query depends --quiet
x11-proto/printproto
x11-libs/libXp-1.0.0
app-editors/nvu-1.0-r4
x11-libs/openmotif-2.3.0
x11-libs/openmotif-2.2.3-r9

sabayon server # python reagent database query depends --quiet x11-proto/xproto
x11-libs/libXevie-1.0.2
x11-libs/libXdmcp-1.0.2
x11-plugins/asclock-2.0.12-r1
dev-libs/libstroke-0.5.1
sys-devel/gcc-3.4.6-r2
x11-libs/libXv-1.0.3
sys-devel/gcc-4.2.2
x11-libs/libXcomposite-0.4.0
x11-plugins/wmmixer-2.0_beta4-r1
x11-plugins/fsviewer-0.2.5
net-www/gnash-0.8.1-r1
x11-libs/libSM-1.0.3
dev-lang/ocaml-3.10.1
x11-libs/libXt-1.0.5
x11-libs/libXaw-1.0.4
x11-libs/libXcursor-1.1.9
gnome-base/nautilus-2.20.0-r1
media-gfx/gifsicle-1.44
x11-libs/xforms-1.0.90-r1
x11-libs/dnd-1.1-r1
x11-libs/libICE-1.0.4
x11-libs/libXft-2.1.12-r90
x11-terms/eterm-0.9.4
media-gfx/tgif-4.1.45
x11-libs/libFS-1.0.0
x11-libs/libXdamage-1.1.1
x11-libs/libXres-1.0.3
x11-libs/libXrandr-1.2.2
x11-libs/libXfont-1.3.1-r1
x11-libs/libXrender-0.9.4
x11-libs/libXau-1.0.3
app-editors/xvile-9.4d-r1
x11-libs/libast-0.7
media-plugins/vdr-xineliboutput-1.0.0_rc2_p20080120
x11-libs/libXvMC-1.0.4
x11-libs/libxsettings-client-0.10
net-dialup/isdn4k-utils-3.11_pre20071003
x11-libs/libX11-1.1.3
x11-libs/libXmu-1.0.3
x11-misc/slim-1.3.0-r1
net-mail/gnubiff-2.2.5
x11-libs/libXfixes-4.0.3
sci-mathematics/snns-4.2-r7

^^^ do they need x11-proto/xproto as RDEPEND?

My time on it for today is over. I'm busy preparing a release, sorry.
Probably some of them are ok, but I don't think all.
Using http://packages.sabayonlinux.org interface you can query all our bins.

-- 
Fabio Erculiani
Information and Communication Technologies Consultant
Sabayon Linux Chief Architect
http://www.sabayonlinux.org
-- 
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree

[Robin H. Johnson]

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On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 10:24:23AM +0100, Fabio Erculiani wrote:
> media-libs/x264-svn -> dev-lang/yasm
> dev-libs/lzo -> dev-lang/nasm
I responded to you on IRC about these two, please see my message there,
as from everything I can see, the DEPs are actually correct.
(The config.log for lzo-1 indicates other reasons that it isn't using
nasm, which should probably get fixed for both x86 and amd64).

> sys-apps/attr -> sys-devel/autoconf
autoconf is in the DEPEND already.
Do you want it not there?

Not reviewing the rest right now, I'm going to bed instead (03h26 here).

-- 
Robin Hugh Johnson
Gentoo Linux Developer & Infra Guy
E-Mail     : robbat2@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP   : 11AC BA4F 4778 E3F6 E4ED  F38E B27B 944E 3488 4E85

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree

[Fabio Erculiani]

Hi Robin,
first of all.
What I need is _basic_ respect on #gentoo-dev
You here seem all polite, but there you like playing me.
This is not a good start.

On 3/13/08, Robin H. Johnson <robbat2@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 10:24:23AM +0100, Fabio Erculiani wrote:
>  > media-libs/x264-svn -> dev-lang/yasm
>  > dev-libs/lzo -> dev-lang/nasm
>
> I responded to you on IRC about these two, please see my message there,
>  as from everything I can see, the DEPs are actually correct.
>  (The config.log for lzo-1 indicates other reasons that it isn't using
>  nasm, which should probably get fixed for both x86 and amd64).
>
>
>  > sys-apps/attr -> sys-devel/autoconf
>
> autoconf is in the DEPEND already.
>  Do you want it not there?
>
>  Not reviewing the rest right now, I'm going to bed instead (03h26 here).
>
>
>  --
>  Robin Hugh Johnson
>  Gentoo Linux Developer & Infra Guy
>  E-Mail     : robbat2@gentoo.org
>  GnuPG FP   : 11AC BA4F 4778 E3F6 E4ED  F38E B27B 944E 3488 4E85
>
>


-- 
Fabio Erculiani
Information and Communication Technologies Consultant
Sabayon Linux Chief Architect
http://www.sabayonlinux.org
-- 
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree

[Fabio Erculiani]

[02:31] <Halcy0n> lxnay: we offer all of our work that you base your
distribution off, and you don't contribute back at all, in any way.

^^ This is a really stupid sentence. It seems some of you don't even
realize how many users we brought to Gentoo, and this is really sad.
You see, people like Halcy0n, agaffney, zlin keep us away from
interacting with you. What we do is just trying to do our best, on the
desktop, aggregating new technologies and bringing them to users.
If you want to stop bad press, you (all) should firstly become more
gentle with users and external contributors. I am not talking to you
directly Robin, but to whom are quite annoying and provocative. I know
that the majority of you have been always kind, but I will never hang
on #gentoo-dev anymore just to be played around giving me voice until
I annoy someone with my POV. This is not a democratic way, let's talk
publicly here, without hiding in a development channel, we probably
get more visibility, don't we?

I will review your stuff on lzo probably tomorrow, hope won't be a problem.

On 3/13/08, Fabio Erculiani <lxnay@sabayonlinux.org> wrote:
> Hi Robin,
>  first of all.
>  What I need is _basic_ respect on #gentoo-dev
>  You here seem all polite, but there you like playing me.
>  This is not a good start.
>
>
>  On 3/13/08, Robin H. Johnson <robbat2@gentoo.org> wrote:
>  > On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 10:24:23AM +0100, Fabio Erculiani wrote:
>  >  > media-libs/x264-svn -> dev-lang/yasm
>  >  > dev-libs/lzo -> dev-lang/nasm
>  >
>  > I responded to you on IRC about these two, please see my message there,
>  >  as from everything I can see, the DEPs are actually correct.
>  >  (The config.log for lzo-1 indicates other reasons that it isn't using
>  >  nasm, which should probably get fixed for both x86 and amd64).
>  >
>  >
>  >  > sys-apps/attr -> sys-devel/autoconf
>  >
>  > autoconf is in the DEPEND already.
>  >  Do you want it not there?
>  >
>  >  Not reviewing the rest right now, I'm going to bed instead (03h26 here).
>  >
>  >
>  >  --
>  >  Robin Hugh Johnson
>  >  Gentoo Linux Developer & Infra Guy
>  >  E-Mail     : robbat2@gentoo.org
>  >  GnuPG FP   : 11AC BA4F 4778 E3F6 E4ED  F38E B27B 944E 3488 4E85
>  >
>  >
>
>
>
> --
>  Fabio Erculiani
>  Information and Communication Technologies Consultant
>  Sabayon Linux Chief Architect
>  http://www.sabayonlinux.org
>


-- 
Fabio Erculiani
Information and Communication Technologies Consultant
Sabayon Linux Chief Architect
http://www.sabayonlinux.org
-- 
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree

[Ryan Hill]

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Fabio Erculiani wrote:
> [02:31] <Halcy0n> lxnay: we offer all of our work that you base your
> distribution off, and you don't contribute back at all, in any way.
> 
> ^^ This is a really stupid sentence. It seems some of you don't even
> realize how many users we brought to Gentoo, and this is really sad.

For those of you playing along at home, the conversation went something like this:

<lxnay> hey there, i found a whole bunch of broken stuff in your tree
<devs> cool, can you file some reports in bugzilla so we can fix it?
<lxnay> no, i'm too busy and you guys are slow.  give me cvs access.
<devs> uh....  no?
<lxnay> you're stupid.


-- 
fonts, gcc-porting,                               by design, by neglect
mips, treecleaner,                        for a fact or just for effect
wxwidgets @ gentoo     EFFD 380E 047A 4B51 D2BD C64F 8AA8 8346 F9A4 0662


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree

[Natanael Copa]

On Thu, 2008-03-13 at 00:35 +0100, Fabio Erculiani wrote:

> I offer my help to fix DEPEND/RDEPEND split issues which is causing me
> a lot of headaches (along with localizations).
> For reference, please have a look here: http://planet.sabayonlinux.org/?p=105

I'm another distro builder that uses the Gentoo framework. I can only
agree. I had to roll my own binary package format and after a short
while I had to do the dependencies myself and just ignore RDEPEND since
it was close to useless.

While Gentoo is fantasitc to build stuff, the binary packagement has
some serious issues. It would be really nice if Gentoo could be better
on supporting other binary only package managers.

-nc

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree

[Petteri Räty]

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Natanael Copa kirjoitti:
> On Thu, 2008-03-13 at 00:35 +0100, Fabio Erculiani wrote:
> 
>> I offer my help to fix DEPEND/RDEPEND split issues which is causing me
>> a lot of headaches (along with localizations).
>> For reference, please have a look here: http://planet.sabayonlinux.org/?p=105
> 
> I'm another distro builder that uses the Gentoo framework. I can only
> agree. I had to roll my own binary package format and after a short
> while I had to do the dependencies myself and just ignore RDEPEND since
> it was close to useless.
 >

http://bugs.gentoo.org

> 
> While Gentoo is fantasitc to build stuff, the binary packagement has
> some serious issues. It would be really nice if Gentoo could be better
> on supporting other binary only package managers.
> 
> -nc
> 

Expected as devs rarely use bin pkgs at all and the Portage support is 
what it is.

Regards,
Petteri


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree

[Rémi Cardona]

Natanael and Fabio,

Petteri Räty a écrit :
> Natanael Copa kirjoitti:
>>
>> I'm another distro builder that uses the Gentoo framework. I can only
>> agree. I had to roll my own binary package format and after a short
>> while I had to do the dependencies myself and just ignore RDEPEND since
>> it was close to useless.
 >
> http://bugs.gentoo.org

I know that we (in the Gnome Herd) will try to fix things when they are 
reported and I have no doubt other devs will do so as well.

But a proper bug report is the way to go if you things to move in any 
direction.

> Expected as devs rarely use bin pkgs at all and the Portage support is 
> what it is.

+1 on that and if people who use binary pkgs don't tell us what breaks, 
we won't know.

Cheers

-- 
Rémi Cardona
LRI, INRIA
remi.cardona@lri.fr
remi@gentoo.org
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree

[Petteri Räty]

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Fabio Erculiani kirjoitti:
> [02:31] <Halcy0n> lxnay: we offer all of our work that you base your
> distribution off, and you don't contribute back at all, in any way.
> 
> ^^ This is a really stupid sentence. It seems some of you don't even
> realize how many users we brought to Gentoo, and this is really sad.
 >

Nope it's not. I already told you on IRC that you weren't understanding 
Halcy0n properly, at least from my POV. You say you have to maintain 
many local changes in your overlay and that you don't have the time to 
send them back upstream (via the official contribution method, 
bugs.gentoo.org). For me that means that you aren't contributing back 
upstream.

Regards,
Petteri


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree

[Steve Dibb]

Fabio Erculiani wrote:
> media-libs/x264-svn -> dev-lang/yasm
> dev-libs/lzo -> dev-lang/nasm
> sys-apps/attr -> sys-devel/autoconf

*snip*

Some of those aren't broken, and I just fixed a few media ones in the 
tree, but that list is similiar to what I was asking for earlier, and a 
good way to contribute.

Thanks

Steve
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree

[Bo Ørsted Andresen]

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On Thursday 13 March 2008 14:34:50 Natanael Copa wrote:
> On Thu, 2008-03-13 at 00:35 +0100, Fabio Erculiani wrote:
> > I offer my help to fix DEPEND/RDEPEND split issues which is causing me
> > a lot of headaches (along with localizations).
> > For reference, please have a look here:
> > http://planet.sabayonlinux.org/?p=105
>
> I'm another distro builder that uses the Gentoo framework. I can only
> agree. I had to roll my own binary package format and after a short
> while I had to do the dependencies myself and just ignore RDEPEND since
> it was close to useless.
>
> While Gentoo is fantasitc to build stuff, the binary packagement has
> some serious issues. It would be really nice if Gentoo could be better
> on supporting other binary only package managers.

We can all agree that Gentoo's binary package support leaves a lot of room for 
improvement. But to fix that you need to come up with real solutions and be 
prepared to discuss them here and through our bugzilla. And accept the fact 
that it will take time... On top of that you need to be able to accept that 
we might not agree with your proposed solution for some of the issues...

-- 
Bo Andresen
Gentoo KDE Dev

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree

[Denis Dupeyron]

On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 2:10 PM, Fabio Erculiani <lxnay@sabayonlinux.org> wrote:
> [02:31] <Halcy0n> lxnay: we offer all of our work that you base your
>  distribution off, and you don't contribute back at all, in any way.
>
>  ^^ This is a really stupid sentence.

While I would agree Halcy0n's statement is slightly exaggerated, it's
somewhat true. There are exactly 26 non-duplicates in our bugzilla
that you either filed or commented on. You have to admit that for
somebody who's been a user for 7 years and who's been "architecting"
(your word) a distribution based on Gentoo for 3 years (or more ?
can't remember) this is a ridiculously low number. How do you want us
to help you if you don't give us any feedback on what you need ? We're
not very good at communicating but we have at least set up some tools
for you to use, and the most important of them in your particular case
is I believe bugzilla. And don't ask us to read you blog, we can't
possibly read everybody's blog. Feedback is part of the game in the
open source world. Gentoo itself gives a lot of feedback to upstream
projects using upstream's communications tools. If you don't play the
game, one thing is sure is that you'll never win.

> It seems some of you don't even
>  realize how many users we brought to Gentoo, and this is really sad.

I'm not sure we should thank you for this. Not that we don't care, but
our aim isn't really to compete against say Ubuntu in the users
department. Some of us are really happy of the success of Sabayon,
there's a place for everybody. We don't make any money out of Gentoo,
and do not intend to. We're only a bunch of volunteers who waste their
free time doing something they think may be needed. It seems you don't
even realize how many users we brought to Sabayon, and this is really
sad.

>  You see, people like Halcy0n, agaffney, zlin keep us away from
>  interacting with you.

I wouldn't agree with you here. But even if you were right, we live in
stupid world and Gentoo doesn't claim to be better than what it's made
of. Note that we're trying to though. But in the end there are always
going to be obnoxious people everywhere. If you give up on the nice
guys because of the bad guys, you lose and the bad guys win. That's
life.

>  If you want to stop bad press, you (all) should firstly become more
>  gentle with users and external contributors.

I'm trying to believe you are not threatening here because *that*
would be stupid. We'd love to be gentle with you. You've just got to
make it happen.

Denis.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree

[Ben de Groot]

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Fabio Erculiani wrote:
| [02:31] <Halcy0n> lxnay: we offer all of our work that you base your
| distribution off, and you don't contribute back at all, in any way.
|
| ^^ This is a really stupid sentence. It seems some of you don't even
| realize how many users we brought to Gentoo, and this is really sad.

Saying 'this is stupid' won't convince anyone and moreover damage your attempt
to build any positive relationship. If the statement is false, simply show with
a few examples that it isn't true. To react to a (perceived) personal attack
with anger (even if justified) and (more) mudslinging is not going to achieve
anything than a further breakdown of communication. Try a more political
approach, if you want to get your point across.

Personally, I admire your attempt to contribute back and get bugs fixed. I am
all for better relationships between Gentoo and Sabayon, because I believe
cooperation will be to our mutual benefit. So I think the discussion should
concentrate on:
~    - what are the best ways to contribute
~    - what are the best channels to get bugs fixed
~    - how could we streamline these processes

I can't believe there is any serious dev that would not want improvement. On the
other hand, we are all volunteers and have limited time. Also, there is the
natural tendency in most people to stick with the known, to resist changes. And
in a big organisation such as Gentoo there will always be various differing
points of view. The resulting bureaucracy and politics is something we have to
live with, improving it where we can.

Therefore, I think that if you really want to improve things, you will have to
work with the current infrastructure. Keep filing bugs in bugzilla, keep
contributing patches, keep trying to work with other devs, and you _will_ gain
respect. That way you will also be in a much better position to suggest changes
and to propose ways of streamlining processes.

It may take a fair bit of investing time and even swallowing pride. But if you
do the work, and let personal attacks and annoyances slide off your thick skin,
you _will_ create a win-win situation.

Honestly wishing you the best,

Ben
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree

[Caleb Tennis]

> +1 on that and if people who use binary pkgs don't tell us what breaks,
> we won't know.

I'll kick it off, then.

The binpkg format needs some way to store the actual versions of the dependencies as
they were on the machine the package was compiled on.  Then, when emerging the
binpkg, someway to force those dependencies on the new install machine would be
nice.

I'll give an example.  Package A was built on machine 1, and has a dep on
>=openssl-0.9.7.  Machine 1 has openssl-0.9.8 already installed.  Binary package
built, no problem.

Now, we attempt to install binary package A on machine 2, which has openssl-0.9.7. 
It installs fine, deps met.  But, whoops, there's some symbols missing when we go to
use package A on machine 2.  After some time, we finally realize it's because we
need new openssl.

I use this example because it's actually hit me before, but it extends to lots of
other scenarios.  The obvious fix is to either use --deep, or just make sure you
need machine 2 up to date with machine 1, though that's difficult to do when you're
talking about machine 301 and machine 559.

If there was a way to tell the bin package installer to make sure you met all of the
same minimum verisons of the deps as they were on the original compiling machine,
that would be fantastic.

Now, I'm happy to file a bug and assign it (to the portage team?), but I view this
really as a wishlist item, and since admittedly very few devs use the binpkg stuff,
I didn't see it as something that would probably get acted upon anyway.  I'm not
complaining about that either, just merely stating a fact.

Caleb

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree

[Gilles Dartiguelongue]

Le jeudi 13 mars 2008 à 10:15 -0400, Caleb Tennis a écrit :
> > +1 on that and if people who use binary pkgs don't tell us what breaks,
> > we won't know.
> 
> I'll kick it off, then.
> 
> The binpkg format needs some way to store the actual versions of the dependencies as
> they were on the machine the package was compiled on.  Then, when emerging the
> binpkg, someway to force those dependencies on the new install machine would be
> nice.
> 
> I'll give an example.  Package A was built on machine 1, and has a dep on
> >=openssl-0.9.7.  Machine 1 has openssl-0.9.8 already installed.  Binary package
> built, no problem.
> 
> Now, we attempt to install binary package A on machine 2, which has openssl-0.9.7. 
> It installs fine, deps met.  But, whoops, there's some symbols missing when we go to
> use package A on machine 2.  After some time, we finally realize it's because we
> need new openssl.
> 
> I use this example because it's actually hit me before, but it extends to lots of
> other scenarios.  The obvious fix is to either use --deep, or just make sure you
> need machine 2 up to date with machine 1, though that's difficult to do when you're
> talking about machine 301 and machine 559.
> 
> If there was a way to tell the bin package installer to make sure you met all of the
> same minimum verisons of the deps as they were on the original compiling machine,
> that would be fantastic.
> 
> Now, I'm happy to file a bug and assign it (to the portage team?), but I view this
> really as a wishlist item, and since admittedly very few devs use the binpkg stuff,
> I didn't see it as something that would probably get acted upon anyway.  I'm not
> complaining about that either, just merely stating a fact.

I think remi was more speaking about incorrect deps (say misplaced in
RDEPEND) than problems concerning the package manager.

In any case, openssl is the perfect example of what can go wrong because
of upstream's behavior. The problem is that program A compiled against
version X of openssl won't work with version Y>X. Currently we need to
keep X's libs around and run revdep-rebuild to fix this.

Most librairies don't cause this problem though so I don't really see
this as a bug on the gentoo side even if it's annoying.

Anyway, to keep machines using binary in sync without much headache, my
current solution is to use a squashfsed portage tree with --deep. It
works pretty well.
-- 
Gilles Dartiguelongue <eva@gentoo.org>
Gentoo

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree

[Fabian Groffen]

(I experimented with binpkgs a little while ago in Prefix)

On 13-03-2008 10:15:33 -0400, Caleb Tennis wrote:
> > +1 on that and if people who use binary pkgs don't tell us what breaks,
> > we won't know.
> 
> I'll kick it off, then.
> 
> The binpkg format needs some way to store the actual versions of the
> dependencies as they were on the machine the package was compiled on.
> Then, when emerging the binpkg, someway to force those dependencies on
> the new install machine would be nice.
> 
> I'll give an example.  Package A was built on machine 1, and has a dep on
> >=openssl-0.9.7.  Machine 1 has openssl-0.9.8 already installed.  Binary package
> built, no problem.
> 
> Now, we attempt to install binary package A on machine 2, which has
> openssl-0.9.7.  It installs fine, deps met.  But, whoops, there's some
> symbols missing when we go to use package A on machine 2.  After some
> time, we finally realize it's because we need new openssl.

Isn't that stored in the NEEDED file?

> I use this example because it's actually hit me before, but it extends
> to lots of other scenarios.  The obvious fix is to either use --deep,
> or just make sure you need machine 2 up to date with machine 1, though
> that's difficult to do when you're talking about machine 301 and
> machine 559.
> 
> If there was a way to tell the bin package installer to make sure you
> met all of the same minimum verisons of the deps as they were on the
> original compiling machine, that would be fantastic.

I guess ideally the SLOTs should match, as for instance libpcre 7.5 and
7.6 work fine as long as libpcre.so.0 is there.  (No guarantees)
But even, for platforms that need libgcc_s.so.1, any gcc that provides it
should be fine.  Though luckily gcc is almost never in DEPEND/RDEPEND.

> Now, I'm happy to file a bug and assign it (to the portage team?), but
> I view this really as a wishlist item, and since admittedly very few
> devs use the binpkg stuff, I didn't see it as something that would
> probably get acted upon anyway.  I'm not complaining about that
> either, just merely stating a fact.

I think binpkgs store more information than you think.  It's just that
Portage doesn't fully use it (yet).


-- 
Fabian Groffen
Gentoo on a different level
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree

[Caleb Tennis]

> Isn't that stored in the NEEDED file?

It very well might be, I'm not much of an expert here :)

> I think binpkgs store more information than you think.  It's just that
> Portage doesn't fully use it (yet).

This is good information to know.  Thanks!

Caleb

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree

[Caleb Tennis]

> I think remi was more speaking about incorrect deps (say misplaced in
> RDEPEND) than problems concerning the package manager.
>
> In any case, openssl is the perfect example of what can go wrong because
> of upstream's behavior. The problem is that program A compiled against
> version X of openssl won't work with version Y>X. Currently we need to
> keep X's libs around and run revdep-rebuild to fix this.

Right, my example was mildly contrived.  But I've run into this same issue with
packages like ruby and glibc, where the build system had newer versions and you run
into symbol issues (or errors like "invalid binary format") because you need to
upgrade underlying libraries.

> Most librairies don't cause this problem though so I don't really see
> this as a bug on the gentoo side even if it's annoying.

It's not really Gentoo's fault, no, but it's a problem that could be somewhat fixed.

> Anyway, to keep machines using binary in sync without much headache, my
> current solution is to use a squashfsed portage tree with --deep. It
> works pretty well.

Agreed, but the problem is (at least in my case) we're talking about production
machines that are actively running, and the customer needs an upgrade of a package
but we don't want to take a chance at ruining something else by upgrading --deep if
we can help it.

From their perspective, they just want it to work (and don't care about what has to
be upgraded), but from a sysadmin perspective it's a difficult problem to solve over
time, especially when you have 10+ other sysadmins, who all may not know that when
you upgrade package X be sure to remember to also upgrade packages Y and Z at the
same time or you'll run into problems.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree

[Natanael Copa]

On Thu, 2008-03-13 at 15:42 +0200, Petteri Räty wrote:
> Natanael Copa kirjoitti:

> > While Gentoo is fantasitc to build stuff, the binary packagement has
> > some serious issues. It would be really nice if Gentoo could be better
> > on supporting other binary only package managers.

> Expected as devs rarely use bin pkgs at all and the Portage support is 
> what it is.

Thats what i found out.

-nc

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree

[Natanael Copa]

On Thu, 2008-03-13 at 14:48 +0100, Rémi Cardona wrote:
> Natanael and Fabio,

> But a proper bug report is the way to go if you things to move in any 
> direction.

Happens once in while i post a patch there
http://tinyurl.com/399gnr

But somethimes you just need to accept we don't live in a perfect world.
I understood early that nobody cares that much about binpkgs anyway and
moved on.

-nc

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree

[Mark Loeser]

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Since you wanted to bring this onto this mailing list, I will address
all of the points you are making here, though I don't believe this to be
the correct place.

To preface the whole thing, I was really trying to understand your
viewpoint and help make things better, but you were either not
understanding what I was saying because of some language issue or
something else.  Instead of trying to understand me, you took it as some
sort of personal attack for some reason.  I don't understand why you
did, or why you believe I was being "annoying" or "boring" (those were
your words last night).

So, now onto addressing what you have said.

Fabio Erculiani <lxnay@sabayonlinux.org> said:
> [02:31] <Halcy0n> lxnay: we offer all of our work that you base your
> distribution off, and you don't contribute back at all, in any way.
> 
> ^^ This is a really stupid sentence. It seems some of you don't even
> realize how many users we brought to Gentoo, and this is really sad.

I wish you would realize that the work all of the Gentoo developers (and
users and outside contributors) has done for your distribution.  It is
entirely based upon our work, and we would really appreciate it if when
you find a problem, you report it to us.  We want to provide quality
packages, but if no one tells us of when there is a problem, we can't do
anything.  Also, the one statement of mine that you decided to pull out
should be put into a little bit of context:

<quote from #gentoo-dev from last night>
21:26:46 <+lxnay> Halcy0n: I entered #gentoo-portage, found zmedico,
talked about the issue, he wrote a patch in less than 1 hour and committed
21:27:06 <+lxnay> Halcy0n: I got the issue solved in less than 3 hours
21:27:17 <+lxnay> if I had to use bugzilla
21:27:26 <+lxnay> it'd have took me days, if not dozen of days
21:27:31 <@hparker> He woulda seen the bug and fixed it...
21:27:41 <@Betelgeuse> yeah
21:27:42 <@Halcy0n> lxnay: I'm not understanding what you are trying to
show me.  Sometimes you can get in touch with someone on IRC, othertimes you
need to use bugzilla.
21:27:55 <@Halcy0n> lxnay: and it would have taken Zac just about the
same amount of time.  He's quick to respond to things like that anyway.
21:28:19 <@Halcy0n> lxnay: What if zac didn't reply to you iin
#g-portage?  What would you have done then?
21:28:40 <+lxnay> Halcy0n: I just wanted to tell you, I don't have time
to wait (dozen of days) and  I always end up forking. and you will never see my
fixes, that's a pity for gentoo
21:29:03 <@jkt|> lxnay: but that's entirely your choice, not our flaw
21:29:10 <+lxnay> Halcy0n: he always replied me in a matter of hours
21:29:23 <+lxnay> jkt|: it is if your dev take that much to fix a silly
bug
21:29:24 <@Halcy0n> lxnay: so, if you couldn't find Zac on IRC?  What
would you have done then?   Just gone and fixed it on your side?
21:30:01 <@jkt|> lxnay: are you to blame us if we don't fix bugs in less
than one week? now this is  funny
21:30:07 <+lxnay> sometimes my bugs got closed just because the
maintainer didn't find them valid
21:30:09 <@Halcy0n> jkt|: shhh, I'm trying to find out something.
21:30:20 <+lxnay> if someone comes to you and say, I have a problem with
X
21:30:31 <@Halcy0n> lxnay: please...if you can't find a dev on IRC, what
do you do?
21:30:36 <+lxnay> you should answer, I'll get this fixed asap, as I
always do :)
21:30:47 <+lxnay> Halcy0n: I fork the ebuild
21:30:53 <@Halcy0n> lxnay: that's very sad.
21:30:59 <+lxnay> Halcy0n: it's not my fault
21:31:04 <@Halcy0n> lxnay: yes it is completely your fault.
21:31:08 <@jkt|> lxnay: well, it is.
21:31:12 <+lxnay> Halcy0n: no it isn't
21:31:15 <+lxnay> why?
21:31:21 <+lxnay> you make mistakes
21:31:21 <@Halcy0n> lxnay: we offer all of our work that you base your
distribution off, and you don't contribute back at all, in any way.
21:31:23 <+lxnay> then it's my fault?
21:31:35 <+lxnay> Halcy0n: yeah of course...
21:31:43 <@jkt|> nope, your fault is not reporting them to us in a
reasonable way
21:31:46 <@Halcy0n> lxnay: the fact that you don't contribute it back
upstream is, and if that's  the attitude you are going to take, then I am done
with this conversation as I don't see it going in a positive direction.

</quote>

Just so everyone can see the what led up to my comment, and hopefully
understand exactly where it is coming from.  Maybe it could have been
phrased differently, but I find it very sad when someone is completely
unwilling to use our bug tracking system to even try to get a problem
fixed.  Not all Gentoo devs are on IRC, and we all have other jobs and
families that we must take care of.  We can't fix bugs within hours all
of the time.  If you start paying us, then maybe that would change :)


> You see, people like Halcy0n, agaffney, zlin keep us away from
> interacting with you.

Who is "us"?  If you have instances where I have made it difficult for any
user to approach me and have me help them with a problem, I would love
to know.  The same goes for everyone else, please contact me privately
if you have a problem with me and feel you can't atleast work with me to
solve an issue.  I'm not asking if you like me or not, but if you feel
you can have atleast a civil relationship to get Gentoo work done.

> This is not a democratic way, let's talk
> publicly here, without hiding in a development channel, we probably
> get more visibility, don't we?

This is probably not the correct venue to have a conversation about this
as it has nothing to do with development.  If I have offended you in
some way, you can contact User Relations or Developer Relations and let
them know (same goes for anyone else as well, to complain about, or be
the complainant).

Thanks,

-- 
Mark Loeser
email         -   halcy0n AT gentoo DOT org
email         -   mark AT halcy0n DOT com
web           -   http://www.halcy0n.com

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree

[Rémi Cardona]

Natanael Copa a écrit :
> But somethimes you just need to accept we don't live in a perfect world.
> I understood early that nobody cares that much about binpkgs anyway and
> moved on.

I'd say you're mistaken. A lot of people care about binpkg. It's not 
because a majority of devs don't _use_ them that they are not willing to 
fix bugs for other use cases.

Same thing can be said about other arches or other OSs Gentoo can run on.

As for the URL you've provided, I don't know what you were trying to 
demonstrate because about 3/4th of the bugs were marked as fixed, 
showing me that your patches got accepted. :) Which is good... isn't it?

I, for one, encourage you to keep opening bug reports.

Cheers

-- 
Rémi Cardona
LRI, INRIA
remi.cardona@lri.fr
remi@gentoo.org
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree

[Fabio Erculiani]

[gio mar 13 2008] [02:50:43] <agaffney>	if you want access to the
tree, find a mentor and go through the recruitment process
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:50:45] <Betelgeuse>	lxnay: Other people have to
live with the changes. no-one can maintain the whole tree single
handed.
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:50:51] <lxnay>	Halcy0n: because I know where to stop
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:51:02] <agaffney>	bullshit
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:51:05] <hparker>	Betelgeuse: Apparently lxnay can
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:51:11] <ferringb>	Betelgeuse: mighty mouse could.
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:51:17] <lxnay>	agaffney: that's what I was trying to do
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:51:24] Entra	Tommy[D] è entrato nel canale
(i=tsbnc@freenet/user/TommyD).
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:51:47] <agaffney>	ferringb: hah
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:52:01] <Halcy0n>	lxnay: again, you are working
in a community environment.  It is not all about you, and there are
people that have much more in depth knowledge about the packages they
maintain than you could.  You want to compare knowledge of GCC with
myself or vapier?  I can tell you right now if you touch glibc or gcc,
we would file a devrel bug immediately.
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:52:09] <agaffney>	lxnay == mighty mouse?
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:52:18] <hparker>	lxnay: If you don't have time
to file bugs, howdahell will you have time for recruitment?
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:52:31] Entra	Maxi è entrato nel canale
(n=maxi@mindfields.own-hero.net).
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:52:35] <lxnay>	agaffney: you like a cow
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:52:40] <lxnay>	agaffney: happy now?
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:52:50] Entra	idl0r è entrato nel canale
(i=idle@unaffiliated/idl0r).
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:52:59] <lxnay>	hparker: I could find time if
this allows me to reduce time
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:53:04] 	 * Halcy0n thinks he needs to go have
another shot of whiskey because this conversation is not making any
sense anymore.
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:53:14] <Betelgeuse>	Time to go to bed.
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:53:17] <hparker>	Halcy0n: Get me one too please, I'm out
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:53:20] Entra	dmwaters è entrato nel canale
(i=dmwaters@freenode/staff/gentoo.dmwaters).
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:53:20] Modalità	ChanServ ha dato privilegi di
operatore del canale a dmwaters.
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:53:24] <Halcy0n>	hparker: Makers work for you?
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:53:29] <hparker>	yup!
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:53:32] <ferringb>	Halcy0n: dibs; still haven't
found my bug
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:53:32] <Halcy0n>	GOt a new bottle I got to crack open :)
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:53:39] <hparker>	;)
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:53:44] Entra	cilly è entrato nel canale
(i=pluto@unaffiliated/cilly).
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:53:56] <Halcy0n>	I alternate between Knob and Makers.
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:53:57] <KingTaco>	flamefest still going on?
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:54:15] <hparker>	dwindling
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:54:16] <Halcy0n>	KingTaco: I wouldn't call it a flamefest.
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:54:25] <agaffney>	lxnay: moooooo
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:54:32] <agaffney>	lxnay: do you really think you
can insult me?
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:54:39] <Halcy0n>	KingTaco: The popcorn didn't
get burnt, it was brought to the perfect temperature.
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:54:41] <agaffney>	Halcy0n: when did it make sense?
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:54:56] <lxnay>	agaffney: I don't think it's
worth it wasting my time insulting you, I've something better to do
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:54:57] <Halcy0n>	agaffney: I'm not sure, but I'm
thinking if I drink more, it might....
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:55:07] <agaffney>	lxnay: oh, burn!
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:55:11] 	 * agaffney cries in the corner
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:55:15] <Halcy0n>	agaffney: you should go die alone.....
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:55:23] <agaffney>	oh noes!!!!1!
[gio mar 13 2008] [02:55:40] <lxnay>	what stupid are you


On 3/13/08, Ryan Hill <dirtyepic@gentoo.org> wrote:
> For those of you playing along at home, the conversation went something like this:
>
>  <lxnay> hey there, i found a whole bunch of broken stuff in your tree
>  <devs> cool, can you file some reports in bugzilla so we can fix it?
>  <lxnay> no, i'm too busy and you guys are slow.  give me cvs access.
>  <devs> uh....  no?
>  <lxnay> you're stupid.
>
>
>
>  --
>  fonts, gcc-porting,                               by design, by neglect
>  mips, treecleaner,                        for a fact or just for effect
>  wxwidgets @ gentoo     EFFD 380E 047A 4B51 D2BD C64F 8AA8 8346 F9A4 0662
>
>
>


-- 
Fabio Erculiani
Information and Communication Technologies Consultant
Sabayon Linux Chief Architect
http://www.sabayonlinux.org
--
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Thu, 2008-03-13 at 14:34 +0100, Natanael Copa wrote:
> On Thu, 2008-03-13 at 00:35 +0100, Fabio Erculiani wrote:
> 
> > I offer my help to fix DEPEND/RDEPEND split issues which is causing me
> > a lot of headaches (along with localizations).
> > For reference, please have a look here: http://planet.sabayonlinux.org/?p=105
> 
> I'm another distro builder that uses the Gentoo framework. I can only
> agree. I had to roll my own binary package format and after a short
> while I had to do the dependencies myself and just ignore RDEPEND since
> it was close to useless.

I'm a distro builder, too, and I haven't been hitting any of these
problems.  Would you care to point out the actual problems, or will the
"close to useless" comment be our only indication of the perceived
problems?

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Games Developer

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Thu, 2008-03-13 at 13:53 +0100, Fabio Erculiani wrote:
> What I need is _basic_ respect on #gentoo-dev

I guess you don't understand that respect has to be earned.  There's a
major difference between courtesy and respect.  You should be given
courtesy.  You have to earn respect.  Demanding respect tends to give
the exact opposite response than the demanding individual intends.  Try
doing something worthy of respecting, and you'll likely gain some
respect.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Games Developer

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Thu, 2008-03-13 at 10:15 -0400, Caleb Tennis wrote:
> > +1 on that and if people who use binary pkgs don't tell us what breaks,
> > we won't know.
> 
> The binpkg format needs some way to store the actual versions of the dependencies as
> they were on the machine the package was compiled on.  Then, when emerging the
> binpkg, someway to force those dependencies on the new install machine would be
> nice.

Please... God... no...

> I use this example because it's actually hit me before, but it extends to lots of
> other scenarios.  The obvious fix is to either use --deep, or just make sure you
> need machine 2 up to date with machine 1, though that's difficult to do when you're
> talking about machine 301 and machine 559.

As much as I hate to say it, your example was rather bunk, because
openssl changed SONAME during that time.  Keeping the package
information isn't *nearly* as important and doing some checking on the
package.  It sounds more like we need to keep some additional
information around, so checks on things like NEEDED can be done.
Perhaps some new "LIBRARIES" file which lists libraries installed by the
package.  Then, prior to merge, $package_manager could check NEEDED
versus RDEPEND versus LIBRARIES and bail if something's not
right/missing.  In this case, even if the RDEPEND was
>=dev-libs/openssl-0.9.7 and you have 0.9.8, it would fail because
NEEDED would list libssl.so.0.9.7, but LIBRARIES would only have
libssl.so.0.9.8 in it.

> If there was a way to tell the bin package installer to make sure you met all of the
> same minimum verisons of the deps as they were on the original compiling machine,
> that would be fantastic.

Uhh... >= in RDEPEND does that, already... Also, this wouldn't have
resolved your openssl issue, at all.  Your machine scenario above would
have still failed, since the minimum version was 0.9.7 on your build
host.

> Now, I'm happy to file a bug and assign it (to the portage team?), but I view this
> really as a wishlist item, and since admittedly very few devs use the binpkg stuff,
> I didn't see it as something that would probably get acted upon anyway.  I'm not
> complaining about that either, just merely stating a fact.

Well, I sincerely hope that you do not file such a bug, as it would
royally screw over the one team in Gentoo that *does* consistently use
our binary package support.

I would definitely like to see the support improved, but not at the
expense of doing very stupid things like locking to specific
versions/revisions of packages.  No offense, but that screams of RPM
hell.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Games Developer

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree

[Fabio Erculiani]

What I just need is respect.
I might found around 150-200 bugs on (R)DEPEND. Take 200 on about 6500
packages we have in our repository, if I take 5 minutes each, I'd end
up to take 16 hours. To build my previous list, I took about 30
minutes, it's not that big, but even that small.
So, what I just wanted to try to build up is a fast lane.
I'm sure there's something we could do to better Gentoo.
When I say "I don't have time", it means that I can't waste my time
fighting with some of you just because you have the knife in your hand
and like to make fun of me. I really admire the commitment of some of
you and it's the only thing that led me coming here to talk.

BTW, It's funny to see the difference of attitudes from here and IRC,
let me underline that :) So this is a neutral ground.

-- 
Fabio Erculiani
Information and Communication Technologies Consultant
Sabayon Linux Chief Architect
http://www.sabayonlinux.org
-- 
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree

[Fabio Erculiani]

On 3/13/08, Chris Gianelloni <wolf31o2@gentoo.org> wrote:
> I'm a distro builder, too, and I haven't been hitting any of these
>  problems.  Would you care to point out the actual problems, or will the
>  "close to useless" comment be our only indication of the perceived
>  problems?
>
>
>  --
>  Chris Gianelloni
>  Release Engineering Strategic Lead
>  Games Developer
>
>

Yeah, but IIRC you are a SOURCE distro builder. Arent't you? (I am just asking!)

-- 
Fabio Erculiani
Information and Communication Technologies Consultant
Sabayon Linux Chief Architect
http://www.sabayonlinux.org
-- 
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree

[Jan Kundrát]

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Fabio Erculiani wrote:
> ^^ This is a really stupid sentence. It seems some of you don't even
> realize how many users we brought to Gentoo, and this is really sad.

I'm not sure I understand how exactly you bring people to Gentoo. You 
bring people to your distribution which is a binary rebuilt of Gentoo, 
AFAIK. Or do you have a steady stream of users drifting away from 
Sabayon to Gentoo?

> You see, people like Halcy0n, agaffney, zlin keep us away from
> interacting with you. 

"Us" being you or who exactly? Halcy0n was just trying to understand 
what exactly are you going to improve.

> If you want to stop bad press, you (all) should firstly become more
> gentle with users and external contributors.> I am not talking to you
> directly Robin, but to whom are quite annoying and provocative. I know
> that the majority of you have been always kind, but I will never hang
> on #gentoo-dev anymore just to be played around giving me voice until
> I annoy someone with my POV.

Well, I was trying pretty hard last night to hear interesting 
suggestions from you which could be actually implemented. I have even 
asked the same questions as Halcy0n did, yet you call him a "bad guy" 
and not me. That's strange. Anyway, please take your time to read the 
following and think about it. Perhaps you'll find out that we aren't a 
group of lazy and angry morons, but a group of people that respect each 
other and wants to get technical issues solved, but with limited time at 
hand.

All you said yesterday was "I don't have time to wait till my bugs are 
fixed, gimme access so that I can fix them myself". As we have been 
trying to tell you in more than two hours, this is not how things work. 
In Gentoo, we respect other developers' work, so if we see a flaw in 
their code, we speak to them about it and don't go blindly fixing stuff 
without prior chat with maintainers.

Having more than 13k packages in the three, no single person can be 
expected to know the whole tree well. That's why we are organized into 
groups and generally talk to each other before fixing bugs. A change you 
make might have huge impact on packages you haven't ever heard of.

During the chat, you proposed various things like "having a mailing 
lists where child distributions could send bugreports they find". This 
is not the way to go. We already have a support channel, the Bugzilla. 
There is really no way to speed up maintainers' reactions. That doesn't 
depend on how they get the reports, but entirely on their spare time and 
motivation.

If you don't like working with bugzilla's web interface, you've been 
already offered another access vectors to the bugzilla database.

But let me repeat it once again -- if you are worried about maintainers 
taking "long time" to respond (where "long time" is, by your definition, 
at about "more than two hours", if I understand you correctly), there's 
no way I'm aware of that this could be changed. We are just humans who 
have to sleep, eat, work, date beautiful girls and drink beer. We are 
not going to abandon any of these just to make the "child distributions" 
happy, sorry.

I have quite a mixed feelings about your offer, too -- you said you're 
willing to fix stuff, yet you refuse to file bugs, giving a reason that 
it "takes time". That doesn't make much sense to me, sorry. If you don't 
file the bug, the same error will stay in the package, it will propagate 
to each and every next release and you'll have to fix it over and over 
again in your code.

> This is not a democratic way, let's talk
> publicly here, without hiding in a development channel, we probably
> get more visibility, don't we?

I'm afraid I don't fully understand your point here -- Gentoo is not 
about democracy as in "what majority wants, that happens". If it was 
such kind of "democracy", we'd have reiser4 as a default filesystem for 
three years now. In Gentoo, things that happen are things that 
developers want. If you're bored with that, hey, become a developer and 
change stuff. Asking us to change the way we work, the process that has 
worked for many years and that we are happy with, just because it might 
give some benefits to your distribution, while also causing more work 
for us, that simply won't happen.

Please, try to think about our reasons.

Cheers,
-jkt

-- 
cd /local/pub && more beer > /dev/mouth


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Thu, 2008-03-13 at 17:22 +0100, Fabio Erculiani wrote:
> [gio mar 13 2008] [02:54:56] <lxnay>	agaffney: I don't think it's
> worth it wasting my time insulting you, I've something better to do

> [gio mar 13 2008] [02:55:07] <agaffney>	lxnay: oh, burn!
> [gio mar 13 2008] [02:55:11] 	 * agaffney cries in the corner

> [gio mar 13 2008] [02:55:40] <lxnay>	what stupid are you

Thanks for reminding me once again how you like to interact with the
people that you're trying to "help" out.  You wonder why people respond
negatively to your demands and this is how you react to people.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Games Developer

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Thu, 2008-03-13 at 17:48 +0100, Fabio Erculiani wrote:
> On 3/13/08, Chris Gianelloni <wolf31o2@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > I'm a distro builder, too, and I haven't been hitting any of these
> >  problems.  Would you care to point out the actual problems, or will the
> >  "close to useless" comment be our only indication of the perceived
> >  problems?

> Yeah, but IIRC you are a SOURCE distro builder. Arent't you? (I am just asking!)

No.  I build binary packages.  Hell, catalyst uses the binary package
support *heavily* for its caching.

Do people really think that a pre-compiled stage tarball is source?  How
about a pre-compiled LiveCD?  Anyone?

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Games Developer

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree

[Fabio Erculiani]

On 3/13/08, Chris Gianelloni <wolf31o2@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Thanks for reminding me once again how you like to interact with the
>  people that you're trying to "help" out.  You wonder why people respond
>  negatively to your demands and this is how you react to people.
>
>
>  --
>
> Chris Gianelloni
>  Release Engineering Strategic Lead
>  Games Developer

Oh so the stupid is me. True true...


-- 
Fabio Erculiani
Information and Communication Technologies Consultant
Sabayon Linux Chief Architect
http://www.sabayonlinux.org
-- 
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree

[Rémi Cardona]

Fabio Erculiani a écrit :
> I might found around 150-200 bugs on (R)DEPEND. Take 200 on about 6500
> packages we have in our repository, if I take 5 minutes each, I'd end
> up to take 16 hours.

Then open a reduced number of bugs, say one per portage category that 
has over 20 bugs and group the rest in a one or 2 other bug reports.

Then bug wranglers can start sifting through the list to see if you've 
been smoking crack or not and add relevant herds/arch teams/maintainers 
as CC to those bugs to get them fixed.

I've done this before on a much smaller scale (20+ packages) and others 
have too for other issues (eg. Flameeyes with WANT_AUTO* which started 
out as a huge list of 100+ packages) and this process has always worked 
fine so far.

 > To build my previous list, I took about 30
> minutes, it's not that big, but even that small.
> So, what I just wanted to try to build up is a fast lane.

Bugzilla is still the fastest lane around. We're not the LKML, bugzilla 
_is_ our primary tool.

> When I say "I don't have time", it means that I can't waste my time
> fighting with some of you just because you have the knife in your hand
> and like to make fun of me.

Honestly, this is borderline paranoia. Most of us get bug reports from 
people we've never heard of, living in countries we've never been to, 
with ages and social backgrounds that we don't even know (or care) about.

And I have yet to see a Gentoo dev closing a bug as 
WONTFIXBECAUSEIDONTLIKEYOU. :)

> BTW, It's funny to see the difference of attitudes from here and IRC,
> let me underline that :) So this is a neutral ground.

I'll add that Bugzilla is also very neutral, even more so than mailing 
lists AFAICS.

Cheers,

Rémi
-- 
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree

[Caleb Tennis]

>> I use this example because it's actually hit me before, but it extends to lots of
>> other scenarios.  The obvious fix is to either use --deep, or just make sure you
>> need machine 2 up to date with machine 1, though that's difficult to do when
>> you're
>> talking about machine 301 and machine 559.
>
> As much as I hate to say it, your example was rather bunk, because
> openssl changed SONAME during that time.  Keeping the package

You're right here.  After review, the problem was the difference between 0.9.8e and
0.9.8g, the latter of which provided some form of newer symbol that wasn't in e. 
But the concept is the same.

> information isn't *nearly* as important and doing some checking on the
> package.  It sounds more like we need to keep some additional
> information around, so checks on things like NEEDED can be done.
> Perhaps some new "LIBRARIES" file which lists libraries installed by the
> package.  Then, prior to merge, $package_manager could check NEEDED
> versus RDEPEND versus LIBRARIES and bail if something's not
> right/missing.  In this case, even if the RDEPEND was
>>=dev-libs/openssl-0.9.7 and you have 0.9.8, it would fail because
> NEEDED would list libssl.so.0.9.7, but LIBRARIES would only have
> libssl.so.0.9.8 in it.

This seems perfectly acceptable to me.

> Uhh... >= in RDEPEND does that, already... Also, this wouldn't have
> resolved your openssl issue, at all.  Your machine scenario above would
> have still failed, since the minimum version was 0.9.7 on your build
> host.

I'm not talking about meeting the minimum required by the ebuild, I'm talking about
the minimum that were installed at the time of the emerge.

> Well, I sincerely hope that you do not file such a bug, as it would
> royally screw over the one team in Gentoo that *does* consistently use
> our binary package support.

I don't plan on filing the bug, but if it was an optional emerge option to use the
actual version deps vs. the DEPEND of the ebuild, it wouldn't affect you would it?

> I would definitely like to see the support improved, but not at the
> expense of doing very stupid things like locking to specific
> versions/revisions of packages.  No offense, but that screams of RPM
> hell.

I'm not trying to lock to any specific version.  I'm trying to reproduce on machine
2 the same state of packages that package A was compiled against on machine 1.  And
even make it optional to do so, via an emerge flag.


-- 
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Thu, 2008-03-13 at 14:48 -0400, Caleb Tennis wrote:
> > As much as I hate to say it, your example was rather bunk, because
> > openssl changed SONAME during that time.  Keeping the package
> 
> You're right here.  After review, the problem was the difference between 0.9.8e and
> 0.9.8g, the latter of which provided some form of newer symbol that wasn't in e. 
> But the concept is the same.

Correct.  That would not have been caught and would be an issue, still.

> > Uhh... >= in RDEPEND does that, already... Also, this wouldn't have
> > resolved your openssl issue, at all.  Your machine scenario above would
> > have still failed, since the minimum version was 0.9.7 on your build
> > host.
> 
> I'm not talking about meeting the minimum required by the ebuild, I'm talking about
> the minimum that were installed at the time of the emerge.
> 
> > Well, I sincerely hope that you do not file such a bug, as it would
> > royally screw over the one team in Gentoo that *does* consistently use
> > our binary package support.
> 
> I don't plan on filing the bug, but if it was an optional emerge option to use the
> actual version deps vs. the DEPEND of the ebuild, it wouldn't affect you would it?

If it were optional, it wouldn't affect us.  I'd have no issue with some
kind of optional support for this sort of thing.

> > I would definitely like to see the support improved, but not at the
> > expense of doing very stupid things like locking to specific
> > versions/revisions of packages.  No offense, but that screams of RPM
> > hell.
> 
> I'm not trying to lock to any specific version.  I'm trying to reproduce on machine
> 2 the same state of packages that package A was compiled against on machine 1.  And
> even make it optional to do so, via an emerge flag.

This is likely usually done by controlling the binrepo.  At least,
that's how I do it.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Games Developer

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree

[René 'Necoro' Neumann]

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I'm not a gentoo-dev - and I did not read the whole thread, because it
was too political for me (do I really have to read all these IRC quotes?).

But I just had an idea for this topic (don't know if anyone had this
already - or if it is not applicable here), that I want to share:

Why not try to find someone, who does all the bug filing? - So lxnay can
find and fix the bugs - and someone else files the bugs and does the
discussing with the gentoo-devs. Then both sides have what they want. Of
course, it still takes time to get things into the tree, but this
shouldn't be a problem :) (I think).

Just an idea - please don't eat me, if it's a silly one ^^

Regards,
Necoro
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-- 
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

[gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree

[Markus Ullmann]

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René 'Necoro' Neumann schrieb:
> I'm not a gentoo-dev - and I did not read the whole thread, because it
> was too political for me (do I really have to read all these IRC quotes?).

+1, this stuff belongs to the -project mailinglist

> But I just had an idea for this topic (don't know if anyone had this
> already - or if it is not applicable here), that I want to share:
> 
> Why not try to find someone, who does all the bug filing? - So lxnay can
> find and fix the bugs - and someone else files the bugs and does the
> discussing with the gentoo-devs. Then both sides have what they want. Of
> course, it still takes time to get things into the tree, but this
> shouldn't be a problem :) (I think).

maybe finding someone who works with a bunch of people would do the trick ;)

> Just an idea - please don't eat me, if it's a silly one ^^

/me eats portatoes today ;)

Greetz
-Jokey


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree

[Robin H. Johnson]

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On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 01:53:34PM +0100, Fabio Erculiani wrote:
> Hi Robin,
> first of all.
> What I need is _basic_ respect on #gentoo-dev
> You here seem all polite, but there you like playing me.
> This is not a good start.
Excuse me? I have never spoken to you on the #gentoo-dev IRC channel,
and thus I cannot be 'playing you' there.

The only places I have thus communicated with you are this mailing list,
and a private IRC discussion.

You still haven't responded either to the private IRC, or here, as to
what you see about media-libs/x264-svn, dev-libs/lzo or sys-apps/attr is
wrong, and I'd really like to know.

P.S. Please don't top post.

-- 
Robin Hugh Johnson
Gentoo Linux Developer & Infra Guy
E-Mail     : robbat2@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP   : 11AC BA4F 4778 E3F6 E4ED  F38E B27B 944E 3488 4E85

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree

[Robin H. Johnson]

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On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 05:43:35PM +0100, Fabio Erculiani wrote:
> What I just need is respect.
> I might found around 150-200 bugs on (R)DEPEND. Take 200 on about 6500
> packages we have in our repository, if I take 5 minutes each, I'd end
> up to take 16 hours.
As the others said, you can either group them together, or as I noted
previously, you can use Bugzilla templates. I think the templates are
going to be a better option for you, based on not being able to see what
you meant about lzo, x264-svn and attr.

Hopefully this URL won't break, as I'm deliberately not shortening it to
show you a template:
http://bugs.gentoo.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=Gentoo%20Linux&version=2007.0&component=Applications&rep_platform=All&op_sys=Linux&priority=P2&bug_severity=normal&bug_status=NEW&alias=&bug_file_loc=&short_desc=Please%20stabilize%20&comment=Target%20keywords%3A%20%0D%0A%0D%0ATest%20procedure%3A%20FEATURES%3Dtest%20emerge%20%0D%0A%0D%0ATest%20procedure%3A%20FEATURES%3D-test%20emerge%0D%0A%28compile-test%20only%29&commentprivacy=0&keywords=STABLEREQ&dependson=&blocked=&maketemplate=Remember%20values%20as%20bookmarkable%20template&form_name=enter_bug&assigned_to=robbat2%40gentoo.org

From the advanced bug filing page, write in a lot of the content that
you want, and then use the button on the button 'Remember values as
bookmarkable template'.

If it takes you 5 minutes to file a bunch of near identical bugs,
something is wrong. The above is my core URL for filing stable bugs.
With a little bit of magic, you can pre-populate every field (eg look at
the KEYWORDS+metadata and work out 'CC' automatically), and then just
fill in a little bit of unique description if needed for each one.
The only time it takes me more than 30 seconds to file a bug requesting
stabilization on one of my packages is if I want to write a detailed
testplan.

-- 
Robin Hugh Johnson
Gentoo Linux Developer & Infra Guy
E-Mail     : robbat2@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP   : 11AC BA4F 4778 E3F6 E4ED  F38E B27B 944E 3488 4E85

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree

[Natanael Copa]

Rémi Cardona wrote:
> Natanael Copa a écrit :
>> But somethimes you just need to accept we don't live in a perfect world.
>> I understood early that nobody cares that much about binpkgs anyway and
>> moved on.
>
> I'd say you're mistaken. A lot of people care about binpkg. It's not 
> because a majority of devs don't _use_ them that they are not willing 
> to fix bugs for other use cases.

If it would be practically possible I would still use RDEPEND. It worked 
alot better to build stuff around NEEDED.

> Same thing can be said about other arches or other OSs Gentoo can run on.
and hardened.
> As for the URL you've provided, I don't know what you were trying to 
> demonstrate because about 3/4th of the bugs were marked as fixed, 
> showing me that your patches got accepted. :) Which is good... isn't it?

I wanted to demonstrate that I do submit bugs and very often I submit a 
patch with it. (so I kinda know what bugs.g.o is)

> I, for one, encourage you to keep opening bug reports.

Don't worry, I will.

> Cheers
-- 
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree

[Natanael Copa]

Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> On Thu, 2008-03-13 at 14:34 +0100, Natanael Copa wrote:
>   
>> On Thu, 2008-03-13 at 00:35 +0100, Fabio Erculiani wrote:
>>
>>     
>>> I offer my help to fix DEPEND/RDEPEND split issues which is causing me
>>> a lot of headaches (along with localizations).
>>> For reference, please have a look here: http://planet.sabayonlinux.org/?p=105
>>>       
>> I'm another distro builder that uses the Gentoo framework. I can only
>> agree. I had to roll my own binary package format and after a short
>> while I had to do the dependencies myself and just ignore RDEPEND since
>> it was close to useless.
>>     
>
> I'm a distro builder, too, and I haven't been hitting any of these
> problems.  Would you care to point out the actual problems, or will the
> "close to useless" comment be our only indication of the perceived
> problems?
>   
Regarding the RDPEND's, there is nothing in the framework protecting the 
RDEPENDS from be wrong. If its wrong, package still compiles and 
installs and (almost) everyone is happy. It pulls in unnecessary stuff 
but who cares? Disk space is cheap.

So since I build a distro where size does matter (uclibc) I realised 
that even if I submit bugs for broken RDEPEND, there will never be an 
end to those bug reports. Looking at this thread, it seems i was right.

That doesn't mean i dont submit bugreports. I do and I very often submit 
a patch. But there is a limit on how much you can fix in upstream before 
you need to go other ways. (That applies to fixing package splitting 
upstream as well btw...)

-nc
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree

[Natanael Copa]

Bo Ørsted Andresen wrote:
> We can all agree that Gentoo's binary package support leaves a lot of room for 
> improvement. But to fix that you need to come up with real solutions and be 
> prepared to discuss them here and through our bugzilla. And accept the fact 
> that it will take time... On top of that you need to be able to accept that 
> we might not agree with your proposed solution for some of the issues...
fair enough

-nc
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree

[Qian Qiao]

On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 8:44 PM, Natanael Copa <natanael.copa@gmail.com> wrote:
>  Regarding the RDPEND's, there is nothing in the framework protecting the
>  RDEPENDS from be wrong. If its wrong, package still compiles and
>  installs and (almost) everyone is happy.

Just because it compiles and installs, doesn't mean it runs.

> It pulls in unnecessary stuff but who cares? Disk space is cheap.

Not always the case.
-- 
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[gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree

[davecode]

Well I'm a newcomer to Gentoo and never heard of Sabayon (great project
btw).  Knowing no one here or there, nor any history:

This conversation reminds me of Human Resources.  They always have
'procedures' and 'career tracks.'  Gentoo's chitchat about earning gold
stars and brownie points is giving me HR sickness.  You're asking
Michael Jordan to prove himself on the high school team.

I've read Gentoo's new dev announcements about monkeys and paper
weights.  People with a couple of small open-source projects.  The
monkeys and paper weights get CVS rights.  Then the chief architect of
Sabayon is scotched over bugzilla output?  Please.  That smells like bad
fish.

When someone as expert as this offers help, take it and make him a fast
lane.  He is worth ten bugzillas.  Like a scientist once told me - it
would be inefficient for him to clean his office, they have janitors for
that.

Bugzillas are broken and most Linux people know it.  Ubuntu has hundreds
of bugs sitting around for years and years.  Personally: I have stopped
filing bugzillas at various places.  Projects organized around bugzillas
are inefficient.

Bugzillas are mostly good for non-devs to report bugs.  I know zero
developers who first think to themselves, "ok, I need a project
bugzilla...then I can begin writing code."  That isn't how development
works.

"So you don't have time to file bugs but you would have time to fix
them" is rhetoric.  The issue is ROI.  Why file bugzillas that some
"dev" authority figure may or may not fix in two years, when you can fix
the code yourself?

If you want to call him a Gentoo developer, then do so ASAP, and give
him CVS.  He knows what he is doing and filing bugzillas is a waste of
talent.  If you let him fix his own bugzillas he might go for that.

But wasting his life trying to earn brownie points and respect?  Sad. 
Gentoo needs the manpower and blowing it off with HR excuses is really,
really dumb.  I can hardly believe what I'm reading.  It makes me want
to cry.  Maybe I should help Sabayon deploy on PowerPC instead of
writing to you guys.  I don't really care who misunderstood whom, or who
has an attitude problem.  There needs to be a red carpet for people like
this.  I would not care if he had a 666 on his head.

You need to attract people like this and if bugzilla isn't working,
think up something new.

If you dislike his CVS mods you can always revert, take votes, etc.  But
I say +1 let him have at it.

-- 
http://www.fastmail.fm - A fast, anti-spam email service.

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[gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree

[Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò]

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davecode@nospammail.net writes:

> Then the chief architect of
> Sabayon is scotched over bugzilla output?

Can I declare myself Chief Architect of unieject? Does that give me
right to take and fix others' software without passing through the usual
ways?

Counting titles seems more an HR thing to me than looking at behaviour.

[and I didn't even want to write to this topic]
-- 
Diego "Flameeyes" Pettenò
http://blog.flameeyes.eu/

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree

[joshua jackson]

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Fabio Erculiani wrote:
| Hi all,
| <snip>
| Cheers

interestingly enough ixnay...I've tried contacting you about working 
together with Gentoo and on things related to eapi as sabayon is one of 
the more popular distributions that has somewhat of a basis on Gentoo 
(I've tried approximately 3-4 times in the last year or so) . Every time 
I tried from 4 different domain accounts including my Gentoo one I was 
denied the ability to send you an email.

While I'm sure many comments are going to be a bit harsh if realistic 
please do feel free to talk to any of the developers.

Splitting isn't really realistic as that is getting away from upstream. 
As an organization we try to maintain the same way as upstream intends. 
If they say that mysql is not a collection of server, client then its 
just mysql. Xorg is a perfect example. It was a huge package, that got 
split up. It took Donnie and the rest of the X team a while to get 
everything ready for the tree but we followed upstream in having 
individual packages for the different aspects of the larger project.

Please feel free to contact me directly if you wish
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree

[Anant Narayanan]

> This conversation reminds me of Human Resources.  They always have
> 'procedures' and 'career tracks.'  Gentoo's chitchat about earning  
> gold
> stars and brownie points is giving me HR sickness.  You're asking
> Michael Jordan to prove himself on the high school team.

You must be American.

I am President of Sabayon.
Give me rights to clobber Gentoo NOW!

Except,
s/Sabayon/United States
s/Gentoo/Iraq

</political-humor>

--
Anant
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree

[Fabio Erculiani]

Hi Joshua,
I never had issues with my emails. So I don't really know what to
answer you regarding to your issues :)
SPLIT: Although I think it can be a suboptimal thing for us, I can
understand your policy. Let me add that, to me, the biggest issue is
about (R)DEPEND. Splitting packages and maintaining in an overlay it's
not that hard.


On 3/13/08, joshua jackson <tsunam@gentoo.org> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>  Hash: SHA1
>
>  Fabio Erculiani wrote:
>  | Hi all,
>  | <snip>
>  | Cheers
>
>  interestingly enough ixnay...I've tried contacting you about working
>  together with Gentoo and on things related to eapi as sabayon is one of
>  the more popular distributions that has somewhat of a basis on Gentoo
>  (I've tried approximately 3-4 times in the last year or so) . Every time
>  I tried from 4 different domain accounts including my Gentoo one I was
>  denied the ability to send you an email.
>
>  While I'm sure many comments are going to be a bit harsh if realistic
>  please do feel free to talk to any of the developers.
>
>  Splitting isn't really realistic as that is getting away from upstream.
>  As an organization we try to maintain the same way as upstream intends.
>  If they say that mysql is not a collection of server, client then its
>  just mysql. Xorg is a perfect example. It was a huge package, that got
>  split up. It took Donnie and the rest of the X team a while to get
>  everything ready for the tree but we followed upstream in having
>  individual packages for the different aspects of the larger project.
>
>  Please feel free to contact me directly if you wish
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>  =c41u
>  -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>
>  --
>  gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
>
>


-- 
Fabio Erculiani
Information and Communication Technologies Consultant
Sabayon Linux Chief Architect
http://www.sabayonlinux.org
-- 
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree

[Fabio Erculiani]

On 3/14/08, Pierre-Yves Rofes <py@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
>  You seem to know him pretty well it seems...
>  Come on lxnay, who are you trying to fool here? You think that just by
>  opening an anonymous mail account, we would be dumb enough to not
>  recognize you? You could at least have been a little more subtle and a
>  little less self congratuling, maybe it would have worked, who knows :)
>
>  - --
>  Pierre-Yves Rofes
>  Gentoo Linux Security Team

I hope you were joking :)))

-- 
Fabio Erculiani
Information and Communication Technologies Consultant
Sabayon Linux Chief Architect
http://www.sabayonlinux.org
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree

[joshua jackson]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Fabio Erculiani wrote:
| Hi Joshua,
| I never had issues with my emails. So I don't really know what to
| answer you regarding to your issues :)
| SPLIT: Although I think it can be a suboptimal thing for us, I can
| understand your policy. Let me add that, to me, the biggest issue is
| about (R)DEPEND. Splitting packages and maintaining in an overlay it's
| not that hard.
|
|
|
I personally have no desire to follow the redhat/debian/other binary
packaging systems which split up infinitesimally small packages. It
causes a lot more busywork in my opinion then any potential benefits
that it gains you.

As far as the depend issue you mentioned: Having both Rdepends and
Depends isn't as far as I'm aware part of any EAPI currently (Correct me
if I'm wrong people). Rdepends are needed for the builds so you will
often see either RDEPENDS=${DEPEND} or vice versa. If its not there then
its more of a matter of accounting then anything. I would think, and
correct me if I'm wrong again, that it would make sense that if you only
have RDEPENDS or DEPEND, then those same applications are required in
the runtime of the application. Does it need to be explicitly stated? So
far the three package manager that I'm aware of all manage this fine.
Those being portage, paludis, and pkgcore. If there are other package
managers out there that might have issues Its a perfect example of a
reason to be involved in the EAPI discussions to help define what is
needed and where.

So what I suggest to you is perhaps looking over the EAPI=0 draft
documentation and proposing some additions and or modifications that
benefit everyone (not just one person), as its designed to be a standard
for anyone who makes use of ebuilds and beyond.

http://dev.gentoo.org/~spb/pms.pdf

Is the current form, but halcy0n is working on an updated version of it
for the next council meeting.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Thu, 13 Mar 2008 09:25:17 -0700
Chris Gianelloni <wolf31o2@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Thu, 2008-03-13 at 13:53 +0100, Fabio Erculiani wrote:
> > What I need is _basic_ respect on #gentoo-dev
> 
> I guess you don't understand that respect has to be earned.

Mmm, funny, when I said that, certain people disagreed very loudly...

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree

[Petteri Räty]

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davecode@nospammail.net kirjoitti:
> Well I'm a newcomer to Gentoo and never heard of Sabayon (great project
> btw).  Knowing no one here or there, nor any history:

Never heard of and you say it's a great project?

> 
> This conversation reminds me of Human Resources.  They always have
> 'procedures' and 'career tracks.'  Gentoo's chitchat about earning gold
> stars and brownie points is giving me HR sickness.  You're asking
> Michael Jordan to prove himself on the high school team.
 >

You don't know Sabayon and can evaluate the skills of lxnay?

> 
> I've read Gentoo's new dev announcements about monkeys and paper
> weights.  People with a couple of small open-source projects.  The
> monkeys and paper weights get CVS rights.  Then the chief architect of
> Sabayon is scotched over bugzilla output?  Please.  That smells like bad
> fish.

The new dev announcements are traditionally written in a funky way.

> 
> Bugzillas are mostly good for non-devs to report bugs.  I know zero
> developers who first think to themselves, "ok, I need a project
> bugzilla...then I can begin writing code."  That isn't how development
> works.
 >

But I don't know any major project not having a bug reporting tool.

> 
> "So you don't have time to file bugs but you would have time to fix
> them" is rhetoric.  The issue is ROI.  Why file bugzillas that some
> "dev" authority figure may or may not fix in two years, when you can fix
> the code yourself?
 >

The perception of things rottening in bugzilla hasn't been proven. Here 
are the response times to bug filed by lxnay in 2007 and 2008:

https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160333
  * first response in two days (and marked as WONTFIX but later reopened)
  * interactions could be better on either sides

https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=188024
  * Fixed in two days

https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=192786
  * Fixed in 7 hours after patch submission

https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=193337
  * Your "expert" is missing basic ebuild knowledge --> WORKSFORME
  * 9 minutes

https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=199886
  * little under two months (yes this is too long)

https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=211324
  * Been open a couple of weeks waiting for other changes (borderline)

We do have lots of stuff that rot in bugzilla in many cases they are 
requests for new ebuilds and not problems with existing ebuilds.

> 
> If you want to call him a Gentoo developer, then do so ASAP, and give
> him CVS.  He knows what he is doing and filing bugzillas is a waste of
> talent.  If you let him fix his own bugzillas he might go for that.
> 

There is nothing stopping him from taking the quizzes as any other new 
dev. If he is as good say you he is, answering the quizzes won't take long.

> 
> You need to attract people like this and if bugzilla isn't working,
> think up something new.
> 

Bugzilla isn't the only way new people come in.

 >
> If you dislike his CVS mods you can always revert, take votes, etc.  But
> I say +1 let him have at it.
> 

Very useful after it has already been synced to tons of machines and 
users are hitting our IRC channels with torches.

Regards,
Petteri


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree

[Fabio Erculiani]

Joshua,
I know that draft quite well, I used as reference for writing Entropy,
our binary package manager which only uses {R,P}DEPEND and not DEPEND.
So here comes the issue, when *DEPEND are not declared properly
Entropy pulls in unneeded packaged.
What you are saying is something I am already aware of :) zmedico has
been really helpful :)

On 3/14/08, joshua jackson <tsunam@gentoo.org> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>  Hash: SHA1
>
>  Fabio Erculiani wrote:
>
> | Hi Joshua,
>  | I never had issues with my emails. So I don't really know what to
>  | answer you regarding to your issues :)
>  | SPLIT: Although I think it can be a suboptimal thing for us, I can
>  | understand your policy. Let me add that, to me, the biggest issue is
>  | about (R)DEPEND. Splitting packages and maintaining in an overlay it's
>  | not that hard.
>  |
>  |
>  |
>
> I personally have no desire to follow the redhat/debian/other binary
>  packaging systems which split up infinitesimally small packages. It
>  causes a lot more busywork in my opinion then any potential benefits
>  that it gains you.
>
>  As far as the depend issue you mentioned: Having both Rdepends and
>  Depends isn't as far as I'm aware part of any EAPI currently (Correct me
>  if I'm wrong people). Rdepends are needed for the builds so you will
>  often see either RDEPENDS=${DEPEND} or vice versa. If its not there then
>  its more of a matter of accounting then anything. I would think, and
>  correct me if I'm wrong again, that it would make sense that if you only
>  have RDEPENDS or DEPEND, then those same applications are required in
>  the runtime of the application. Does it need to be explicitly stated? So
>  far the three package manager that I'm aware of all manage this fine.
>  Those being portage, paludis, and pkgcore. If there are other package
>  managers out there that might have issues Its a perfect example of a
>  reason to be involved in the EAPI discussions to help define what is
>  needed and where.
>
>  So what I suggest to you is perhaps looking over the EAPI=0 draft
>  documentation and proposing some additions and or modifications that
>  benefit everyone (not just one person), as its designed to be a standard
>  for anyone who makes use of ebuilds and beyond.
>
>  http://dev.gentoo.org/~spb/pms.pdf
>
>  Is the current form, but halcy0n is working on an updated version of it
>  for the next council meeting.
>
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>
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>  --
>  gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
>
>


-- 
Fabio Erculiani
Information and Communication Technologies Consultant
Sabayon Linux Chief Architect
http://www.sabayonlinux.org
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] RDEPEND=DEPEND (was: Help offered - Portage tree)

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 21:01:09 -0700
"Alec Warner" <antarus@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Did we ever set RDEPEND=DEPEND or vice versa automatically?  Maybe it
> never went into EAPI=0.  In either case I'm sure most maintainers
> would appreciate feedback in this area.

PMS is supposed to say something like "RDEPEND=DEPEND is done for
ebuilds iff RDEPEND is unset in the ebuild. This is done before eclass
values are merged in.". But I think the current master doesn't actually
say what the implicit RDEPEND=DEPEND is, merely that it's done before
eclass values...

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Thu, 13 Mar 2008 09:55:29 -0700
Chris Gianelloni <wolf31o2@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Do people really think that a pre-compiled stage tarball is source?
> How about a pre-compiled LiveCD?  Anyone?

No, but they do think that it's not really a distribution, since you
don't use the binaries with changing dependencies or for upgrades. You
won't encounter most binary-related issues if you're using them to
build what is in effect a static image.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree

[Pierre-Yves Rofes]

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Hash: SHA1

davecode@nospammail.net a écrit :
> Well I'm a newcomer to Gentoo and never heard of Sabayon (great project
> btw). [...]
> 
> When someone as expert as this [...]

>  He is worth ten bugzillas.  [...]

>  He knows what he is doing and filing bugzillas is a waste of
> talent.  [...]

>  There needs to be a red carpet for people like
> this. [...]

You seem to know him pretty well it seems...
Come on lxnay, who are you trying to fool here? You think that just by
opening an anonymous mail account, we would be dumb enough to not
recognize you? You could at least have been a little more subtle and a
little less self congratuling, maybe it would have worked, who knows :)

- --
Pierre-Yves Rofes
Gentoo Linux Security Team
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree

[Jan Kundrát]

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Natanael Copa wrote:
> So since I build a distro where size does matter (uclibc) I realised 
> that even if I submit bugs for broken RDEPEND, there will never be an 
> end to those bug reports. Looking at this thread, it seems i was right.

I wonder what you are looking at :(. You've been told by multiple 
developers that we do care about dep correctness and are willing to fix 
bugs when we hear about them.

Cheers,
-jkt

-- 
cd /local/pub && more beer > /dev/mouth


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree

[Gilles Dartiguelongue]

I've haven't finished reading this thread so excuse if some points here
have been written already.

 1. You think that because you work everyday with gentoo on your own
variant should automatically grant you CVS access. This is _not_
possible. It has already been said, the only way to get access CVS is to
take on the quizzes and this is for far too many good reasons. If you
can't leave with that, then I'm sorry but imho things won't move on this
front in the foreseeable future.

 2. You don't like the attitude of devs playing with you on #gentoo-dev,
seriously, did you stay on this channel long enough to _not_ find how
devs are interacting together. We play with each other pretty much each
day and no-one takes offense (or at least not too often :D). Please
relax and hear the arguments not the playing.

I probably forgot some points I wanted to expose but these are the roots
of the rest I believe.
-- 
Gilles Dartiguelongue <eva@gentoo.org>
Gentoo

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree

[Natanael Copa]

On Fri, 2008-03-14 at 10:09 +0100, Jan Kundrát wrote:
> Natanael Copa wrote:
> > So since I build a distro where size does matter (uclibc) I realised 
> > that even if I submit bugs for broken RDEPEND, there will never be an 
> > end to those bug reports. Looking at this thread, it seems i was right.
> 
> I wonder what you are looking at :(. 

IIRC thread starter complained about too many wrong RDEPEND.

> You've been told by multiple 
> developers that we do care about dep correctness and are willing to fix 
> bugs when we hear about them.

Problem is not that devs are not willing to fix. Problem is that its to
easy to inject wrong RDEPEND in the tree in the first place and only way
to get it out from there is to wait for someone to report it. Since
many/most devs dont use binpkgs its expected that errors in RDEPEND are
there.

Might be i have ideas how to fix but I need to gain some experience with
repoman before I present those.

-nc

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[gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree

[Christian Faulhammer]

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Hi,

davecode@nospammail.net:
> I've read Gentoo's new dev announcements about monkeys and paper
> weights.  People with a couple of small open-source projects.  The
> monkeys and paper weights get CVS rights.  Then the chief architect of
> Sabayon is scotched over bugzilla output?  Please.  That smells like
> bad fish.

 Sorry, but look up humour in a dictionary of your choice.  The guy
with the paperweight has been a valuable contributor to the Alpha port
including preparing the releases for that architecture.  If you had read
his announcement completely you would have seen what kind of service he
provided for the project...for years!


> When someone as expert as this offers help, take it and make him a
> fast lane.  He is worth ten bugzillas.  Like a scientist once told me
> - it would be inefficient for him to clean his office, they have
> janitors for that.

 No, same rights for everybody.  Even Daniel Robbins (founder of
Gentoo) took the quizees the normal way. when he returned.

> Bugzillas are mostly good for non-devs to report bugs.  I know zero
> developers who first think to themselves, "ok, I need a project
> bugzilla...then I can begin writing code."  That isn't how development
> works.

 As long as somebody cares about the bugs, it works quite well...if
nobody responds to them, any system is useless.
 
> "So you don't have time to file bugs but you would have time to fix
> them" is rhetoric.  The issue is ROI.  Why file bugzillas that some
> "dev" authority figure may or may not fix in two years, when you can
> fix the code yourself?

 Sometimes I do commits in other project's garden...because I need a
bug closed.  I warn them one week at least before doing the actual
change so somebody can stop me.

> If you dislike his CVS mods you can always revert, take votes, etc.
> But I say +1 let him have at it.

 Fine, you can help him take the quiz.

V-L

-- 
Christian Faulhammer, Gentoo Lisp project
<URL:http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/lisp/>, #gentoo-lisp on FreeNode

<URL:http://www.faulhammer.org/>

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree

[Fabio Erculiani]

I don't really want CVS access neither I care. What I want is just
fixing bugs. I'll try to file a huge bug on all the broken RDEPENDs
I'll found. I'll try to find a free slot during the end of the next
week for the hunting.
Then, we'll see how long it will stay open, just one evidence here:
http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=125728 :)

I've also found a lot of files collisions, especially on scientific
applications. I'll try to file a huge bug for that too, but it'll take
a lot of time.

-- 
Fabio Erculiani
Information and Communication Technologies Consultant
Sabayon Linux Chief Architect
http://www.sabayonlinux.org
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree

[Bo Ørsted Andresen]

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On Friday 14 March 2008 18:16:15 Fabio Erculiani wrote:
> Then, we'll see how long it will stay open, just one evidence here:
> http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=125728 :)

Uhh.. We can do better than that...

http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1343

Seriously though.. if someone had a proper solution implemented it would be 
applied.. Just noone has..

-- 
Bo Andresen
Gentoo KDE Dev

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree

[Jakub Moc]

Fabio Erculiani napsal(a):
> I'll try to file a huge bug on all the broken RDEPENDs
> I'll found. I'll try to find a free slot during the end of the next
> week for the hunting.

No, please don't. One bug per category is acceptable, no way I'm going 
to CC 150 maintainers on such monster bug and watch the resulting huge 
bugspam landing in bug-wranglers and other people's mailboxes, it's 
extremely annoying, extremely messy and generally not a good way to 
things fixed.


-- 
Best regards,

  Jakub Moc
  mailto:jakub@gentoo.org
  GPG signature:
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  Primary key fingerprint: D2D7 933C 9BA1 C95B 2C95  B30F 8717 D5FD CEBA 
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  ... still no signature   ;)
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree

[Luca Barbato]

Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> - "What I am asking Gentoo Foundation is, let me fix them"
> Apply to be a developer, then you can fix them. I don't personally have
> any opinion (positive or negative) about Sabayon, but a former coworker
> of mine was a big fan.

Addendum, the Foundation cannot do anything about that.

lu

-- 

Luca Barbato
Gentoo Council Member
Gentoo/linux Gentoo/PPC
http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Help offered - Portage tree

[Luca Barbato]

Natanael Copa wrote:
> IIRC thread starter complained about too many wrong RDEPEND.

No, the thread started with an attitude problem, still unsolved btw.

> Problem is not that devs are not willing to fix. Problem is that its to
> easy to inject wrong RDEPEND in the tree in the first place and only way
> to get it out from there is to wait for someone to report it. Since
> many/most devs dont use binpkgs its expected that errors in RDEPEND are
> there.

That could/will be solved with tinderbox checking or other means of 
automated checks. We need your help since we don't have enough resources 
to do that by ourselves.

> Might be i have ideas how to fix but I need to gain some experience with
> repoman before I present those.

Thank you for your offer, I'm looking forward to heard back from you =)

lu

-- 

Luca Barbato
Gentoo Council Member
Gentoo/linux Gentoo/PPC
http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree

[Luca Barbato]

davecode@nospammail.net wrote:
> Well I'm a newcomer to Gentoo and never heard of Sabayon (great project
> btw).  Knowing no one here or there, nor any history:

great never heard project... Smells troll or dumb fan.

> This conversation reminds me of Human Resources.  They always have
> 'procedures' and 'career tracks.'  Gentoo's chitchat about earning gold
> stars and brownie points is giving me HR sickness.  You're asking
> Michael Jordan to prove himself on the high school team.

Empty rhetoric.

> I've read Gentoo's new dev announcements about monkeys and paper
> weights.  People with a couple of small open-source projects.  The
> monkeys and paper weights get CVS rights.  Then the chief architect of
> Sabayon is scotched over bugzilla output?  Please.  That smells like bad
> fish.

No, any people is welcome to contribute to gentoo, as long rules are 
respected. IFF you want to be a dev, you MUST do the quizzes. It takes 
about one day (5 hours) to do them all if you want.

> When someone as expert as this offers help, take it and make him a fast
> lane.

Nobody proved us he is an expert. You shouldn't assume.

> He is worth ten bugzillas.

Are they in the same tune of internets?

> Like a scientist once told me - it would be inefficient for him to clean
> his office, they have janitors for that.

Bad example and non consequential. (BTW: pigs do not count as scientists)

> Bugzillas are broken and most Linux people know it.

Issue tracking is the _ONLY_ way to make sure at least you know what is 
going on.

> Ubuntu has hundreds of bugs sitting around for years and years.

And? We aren't Ubuntu, yet knowing that you have long opened bugs is way 
better than being oblivious about them (and nothing is preventing others 
to propose fixes)

> Personally: I have stopped filing bugzillas at various places.

Please quit as well exploiting our software.

> Projects organized around bugzillas are inefficient.

Care to backing up this claim? Issue tracking is needed.

> Bugzillas are mostly good for non-devs to report bugs.  I know zero
> developers who first think to themselves, "ok, I need a project
> bugzilla...then I can begin writing code."  That isn't how development
> works.

You aren't a developer, for LScube I FIRST set up git roundup(it's an 
issue tracker like bugzilla) and a completely new website, then I 
managed to get mailing lists and irc channel.

> "So you don't have time to file bugs but you would have time to fix
> them" is rhetoric.  The issue is ROI.  Why file bugzillas that some
> "dev" authority figure may or may not fix in two years, when you can fix
> the code yourself?

You aren't following... IFF you want to be a dev you apply for it like 
any other guy interested. IFF you want a bug fixed you report it 
properly using the tools for that: bugzilla.

> If you want to call him a Gentoo developer, then do so ASAP, and give
> him CVS.  He knows what he is doing and filing bugzillas is a waste of
> talent.  If you let him fix his own bugzillas he might go for that.

You aren't supposed to know anything since you:
- are a gentoo newcomer (welcome btw)
- you don't know anything about Sabayon

> Gentoo needs the manpower and blowing it off with HR excuses is really,
> really dumb.

Informed judgments are better, isn't it.

> I can hardly believe what I'm reading.

Me too.

> It makes me want to cry.

Take a tissue.

> Maybe I should help Sabayon deploy on PowerPC instead of writing to you guys.

You are free to do whatever you want.

> I don't really care who misunderstood whom, or who has an attitude problem.
> There needs to be a red carpet for people like this.

NO, he managed to piss off MOST of the developers, he hadn't prove 
himself to us beside being a legend on #gentoo-releng, he exploited our 
work giving headaches back like people lying about their setup on bugzilla.

> I would not care if he had a 666 on his head.

I'm not discussing his fashion tastes.

> You need to attract people like this and if bugzilla isn't working,
> think up something new.

No, we don't need people rushing solutions that may or may not be:
- half backed
- clashing with the Gentoo way (the 3-4 things that make working with 
Gentoo different than working on say... Debian rebuilding apt packages)

> If you dislike his CVS mods you can always revert, take votes, etc.  But
> I say +1 let him have at it.

Doesn't work like that, our cvs must be stable, you have a relatively 
narrow window between syncs to the mirrors and if you make a mistake and 
don't fix it within that time, users will suffer.

lu

-- 

Luca Barbato
Gentoo Council Member
Gentoo/linux Gentoo/PPC
http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero

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[gentoo-dev] Re: Help offered - Portage tree

[davecode]

> Come on lxnay, who are you trying to fool here?

Oh for crying out loud, Pierre.  How paranoid!

Luca - questioning Gentoo's HR shouldn't elicit insults about pigs and
trolls.  This behavior suggests you are too easy to piss off in the
first place.  I'm not going to bother with pointwise pseudo-rebuttals
that amount to not listening.

I am an experienced developer.  The proof is in the pudding.  If Gentoo
gains more devs than it loses, and the bugzilla shrinks faster than it
grows, then I will change my mind.  Anyway you're clearly set in your
ways!  Good luck!

Dave

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