From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org ([69.77.167.62] helo=lists.gentoo.org) by finch.gentoo.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1L9lL2-0003KG-Mk for garchives@archives.gentoo.org; Mon, 08 Dec 2008 19:00:12 +0000 Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EF8B9E0785; Mon, 8 Dec 2008 19:00:09 +0000 (UTC) Received: from yw-out-1718.google.com (yw-out-1718.google.com [74.125.46.156]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6AF3E0785 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 2008 19:00:09 +0000 (UTC) Received: by yw-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 5so569918ywm.46 for ; Mon, 08 Dec 2008 11:00:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=vdXTkgCZAtp4mQEBRk7LGClQ8MdmQtxxWaQDqCM+R5E=; b=L8d0c1KycrkFxb57neL3JbcdIVHF14ptVDTmePU0ZnLPV6TsIc0j2df6sqTPPghrUm 01Yhgtu/K4aYQvoVvKFjnIMpLW3HWhCIk7KY3Adn0c6+LY5IiWAi34IEdvabHypUSykq C2jf+SL0gxN90kD2ycCPY8KmQkynpuBjO9ZGg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references; b=egnAuhJwP7/4zAbaJezRQeF/naE5vx3+O+eyCgMIud2FluGLSi4qXgk1/wswJ5wyuu hNi2Tgkk+x9lWRUv4T7FiH/X+DcE9LrA7hB8j3ZUHlssqZwGv1TC/LP4/7u5//hbGTQv +51fbSfk+jas0Z+iJThMRK1gz1vbFnCRmekOg= Received: by 10.90.94.3 with SMTP id r3mr1409974agb.73.1228762808838; Mon, 08 Dec 2008 11:00:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.90.56.13 with HTTP; Mon, 8 Dec 2008 11:00:08 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 20:00:08 +0100 From: Geralt To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] app-admin/eselect needs YOUR help In-Reply-To: <20081208174434.7a91f976@snowcone> Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <49398A33.2070203@gentoo.org> <20081206154415.37b1c14e@snowcone> <20081207074439.GB8968@comet.hsd1.or.comcast.net> <20081207144633.3d233dc8@snowcone> <20081208163742.GA2455@comet> <20081208174434.7a91f976@snowcone> X-Archives-Salt: 6213f100-bc78-420b-bdf4-0e9cd0cde2d4 X-Archives-Hash: d7a628406b160640d43f2cc765149aba On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 6:44 PM, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: > On Mon, 8 Dec 2008 08:37:42 -0800 > Donnie Berkholz wrote: >> Open and public debate about the right way to do things does take >> longer, and it's something you certainly participate in quite >> frequently so I'm surprised to hear you badmouth it when it comes to >> your own ideas. > > Open and public debate requires two or more well informed parties who > are seeking to reach the best solution regardless of who proposed it, > and a deciding body who are prepared to go for the best solution even > if it isn't universally popular. This sometimes happens with Gentoo, > but unfortunately all too often it's one of these instead: > > * A good proposal gets a few incorrect objections from people who > don't understand it and aren't prepared to put in the effort to > become well informed. The Council then uses these objections as an > excuse to sit on the proposal and do nothing for months, because > making a decision is harder than maintaining the status quo. > > * A good proposal gets a whole load of silly, trivial and nonsensical > objections from sockpuppeting trolls who don't like the people who > came up with the proposal (or sometimes from sockpuppeting trolls who > suspect that the person who came up with the proposal once spoke to > the cousin of a cleaner who once worked for the nephew of someone who > said that the proposal looked sensible...). The Council do not > dismiss these objections because they don't want to risk upsetting > anyone. > > * A good proposal comes along. Its proof of concept implementation is > done using a project that is considered by some to risk upsetting the > status quo. A bunch of people who are involved in the proposal get > fired. > > * A proposal gets implemented without the debate. It's either a lousy > proposal that we're then stuck with, or a decent proposal that has a > few flaws that could have been addressed. > > This is the kind of 'open and public debate' one would expect from a > failing government trying to cling to power for a few more years or a > middle-management-heavy corporation on its last legs. It's fine if you > want to repaint the bikeshed a slightly nicer shade of magenta, but > it's a real nuisance for anything serious. > > None of the people involved in the decision to fork eselect rather than > work on it for Gentoo are anything except entirely in favour of open and > public debate. It's just that they don't exactly have a positive > experience of that happening within Gentoo... > > -- > Ciaran McCreesh > Reminds me so much of http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/12/05/the-linux-desktops-change-problem/