[gentoo-dev] Another call for BugVoting on bugs.gentoo.org

[gentoo-dev] Another call for BugVoting on bugs.gentoo.org

[Heinrich Wendel]

I just read this: http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/view/1055 and think it 
explains things very well.

So here is just another call for enabling bug voting on bugs.gentoo.org

mfg, heinrich :-)
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Another call for BugVoting on bugs.gentoo.org

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Tue, 17 May 2005 00:58:45 +0200 Heinrich Wendel <lanius@gentoo.org>
wrote:
| I just read this: http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/view/1055 and
| think it  explains things very well.
| 
| So here is just another call for enabling bug voting on
| bugs.gentoo.org

What, so that you can see which bugs a small but vocal group of ricers
are interested in rather than the ones that're actually important? So
that users can start whining that "this really stupid bug has six
zillion votes but no-one's implemented it!"? So that certain people can
carry on ignoring critical bugs under the pretense that low votes is the
same as low importance?

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Vim, Shell tools, Fluxbox, Cron)
Mail            : ciaranm at gentoo.org
Web             : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Another call for BugVoting on bugs.gentoo.org

[Mike Frysinger]

On Monday 16 May 2005 07:08 pm, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> What, so that you can see which bugs a small but vocal group of ricers
> are interested in rather than the ones that're actually important?

once again, voting is optional ... if you dont want to pay attention to them, 
then dont

shut up and let the devs who wish to utilize it do so
-mike
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Another call for BugVoting on bugs.gentoo.org

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Mon, 16 May 2005 19:45:05 -0400 Mike Frysinger <vapier@gentoo.org>
wrote:
| On Monday 16 May 2005 07:08 pm, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
| > What, so that you can see which bugs a small but vocal group of
| > ricers are interested in rather than the ones that're actually
| > important?
| 
| once again, voting is optional ... if you dont want to pay attention
| to them,  then dont

Ok. Please provide me with a procmail rule that will filter bug comment
emails which whine about votes being ignored whilst letting legit
comments through.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Vim, Shell tools, Fluxbox, Cron)
Mail            : ciaranm at gentoo.org
Web             : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Another call for BugVoting on bugs.gentoo.org

[Mike Frysinger]

On Monday 16 May 2005 08:01 pm, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Mon, 16 May 2005 19:45:05 -0400 Mike Frysinger <vapier@gentoo.org>
>
> wrote:
> | On Monday 16 May 2005 07:08 pm, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> | > What, so that you can see which bugs a small but vocal group of
> | > ricers are interested in rather than the ones that're actually
> | > important?
> |
> | once again, voting is optional ... if you dont want to pay attention
> | to them,  then dont
>
> Ok. Please provide me with a procmail rule that will filter bug comment
> emails which whine about votes being ignored whilst letting legit
> comments through.

i dont see how that differs any from users whining about how a bug has been 
open "foooooooooorever" or how there's "a billion people in the cc list" and 
yet the fix still isnt in portage !  clearly developers are a bunch of jerk 
offs since my bug hasnt been fixed yesterday !

ive seen users complain on bugs/version bump requests that were open for less 
than 3 days and dealt with packages that were far from critical (i.e. a 
package in emulation or games)
-mike
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Another call for BugVoting on bugs.gentoo.org

[Alec Warner]

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Hash: SHA1

Mike Frysinger wrote:
> On Monday 16 May 2005 08:01 pm, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> 
>>On Mon, 16 May 2005 19:45:05 -0400 Mike Frysinger <vapier@gentoo.org>
>>
>>wrote:
>>| On Monday 16 May 2005 07:08 pm, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
>>| > What, so that you can see which bugs a small but vocal group of
>>| > ricers are interested in rather than the ones that're actually
>>| > important?
>>|
>>| once again, voting is optional ... if you dont want to pay attention
>>| to them,  then dont
>>

I would tend to agree with Klieber when he closed the actual bug about
this issue that I read through a few weeks ago.  The problem with
leaving it optional being users vote a bunch on bug X and then the
developer says he doesn't care, and then the users bitch because 'their
precious voice was ignored'.  Personally if users want crap that bad,
they can submit the code themselves.

Most if not all of the developers here are volunteers, and just because
a bunch of users vote up a bug doesn't particularly make it important to
work on.  I think that if this is made clear enough somewhere, them this
could work.  Obviously voting is a very nice tool that could help out a
lot of people who use it.  It's just not worth it (IMHO) when it annoys
the other half of the people who don't use it.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Another call for BugVoting on bugs.gentoo.org

[Stefan Schweizer]

On 5/17/05, Alec Warner <warnera6@egr.msu.edu> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Mike Frysinger wrote:
> > On Monday 16 May 2005 08:01 pm, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> >
> >>On Mon, 16 May 2005 19:45:05 -0400 Mike Frysinger <vapier@gentoo.org>
> >>
> >>wrote:
> >>| On Monday 16 May 2005 07:08 pm, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> >>| > What, so that you can see which bugs a small but vocal group of
> >>| > ricers are interested in rather than the ones that're actually
> >>| > important?
> >>|
> >>| once again, voting is optional ... if you dont want to pay attention
> >>| to them,  then dont
> >>
> 
> I would tend to agree with Klieber when he closed the actual bug about
> this issue that I read through a few weeks ago.  The problem with
> leaving it optional being users vote a bunch on bug X and then the
> developer says he doesn't care, and then the users bitch because 'their
> precious voice was ignored'.  Personally if users want crap that bad,
> they can submit the code themselves.

Do you see such kind of bitching anywhere in the kde project?

On the bugs where I looked I dont see anything, seems like people know
that voting wont count as a means of pressure for developers.

> 
> Most if not all of the developers here are volunteers, and just because
> a bunch of users vote up a bug doesn't particularly make it important to

Many bugs in bugzilla have ebuilds contributed, the work is done,
there is just no developer to add them to the tree and review them.
Bugvoting would allow other developers to see where they can help. For
example I am using kde but dont read all kde bugs, so if I would know
there is a kde bug with many votes I would maybe look at it.
> work on.  I think that if this is made clear enough somewhere, them this
> could work.  Obviously voting is a very nice tool that could help out a
> lot of people who use it.  It's just not worth it (IMHO) when it annoys
> the other half of the people who don't use it.

We can alternatively introduce a customilzable Bugzilla, developers
who dont want to see Votes can turn them off and will not see the Vote
counts for bugs :)

-- Stefan

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Another call for BugVoting on bugs.gentoo.org

[Thierry Carrez]

Stefan Schweizer wrote:

> Many bugs in bugzilla have ebuilds contributed, the work is done,
> there is just no developer to add them to the tree and review them.
> Bugvoting would allow other developers to see where they can help. For
> example I am using kde but dont read all kde bugs, so if I would know
> there is a kde bug with many votes I would maybe look at it.

I have mixed feelings about this.

Voting would be useful to judge which package gathers sufficient
popularity to be added to Portage for example. Currently only packages a
developer cares for are added, voting would help to get user opinion.

On the other hand, on base system bugs for example voting would be more
a pressure tool that might not help much...

We could enable voting on a "New Ebuilds" section and see how it goes ?

-- 
Koon
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Another call for BugVoting on bugs.gentoo.org

[Brian Harring]

On Tue, May 17, 2005 at 09:58:43AM +0200, Thierry Carrez wrote:
> Stefan Schweizer wrote:
> 
> > Many bugs in bugzilla have ebuilds contributed, the work is done,
> > there is just no developer to add them to the tree and review them.
> > Bugvoting would allow other developers to see where they can help. For
> > example I am using kde but dont read all kde bugs, so if I would know
> > there is a kde bug with many votes I would maybe look at it.
> 
> I have mixed feelings about this.
> 
> Voting would be useful to judge which package gathers sufficient
> popularity to be added to Portage for example. Currently only packages a
> developer cares for are added, voting would help to get user opinion.
> 
> On the other hand, on base system bugs for example voting would be more
> a pressure tool that might not help much...
> 
> We could enable voting on a "New Ebuilds" section and see how it goes ?
Seems like a good approach in my opinion.  Most of the nays have 
basically come down to "I don't want people voting on stuff I'm 
working on, I know what needs to be done, don't need extra input to 
discern it".
Ebuild submissions fall squarely outside of that arguement, and would 
be a good test run of it.

Personally, I'd be interested in it for actual portage bugs; that 
said, I'm not totally sure if I'd want it enabled _now_ since there 
are internal changes needed rather then more feature bloat, so voting 
would be ignored till internal bits are done.

My 2 cents...
~harring
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Another call for BugVoting on bugs.gentoo.org

[Heinrich Wendel]

On Tuesday 17 May 2005 10:13, Brian Harring wrote:
> On Tue, May 17, 2005 at 09:58:43AM +0200, Thierry Carrez wrote:
> > Stefan Schweizer wrote:
> > > Many bugs in bugzilla have ebuilds contributed, the work is done,
> > > there is just no developer to add them to the tree and review them.
> > > Bugvoting would allow other developers to see where they can help. For
> > > example I am using kde but dont read all kde bugs, so if I would know
> > > there is a kde bug with many votes I would maybe look at it.
> >
> > I have mixed feelings about this.
> >
> > Voting would be useful to judge which package gathers sufficient
> > popularity to be added to Portage for example. Currently only packages a
> > developer cares for are added, voting would help to get user opinion.
> >
> > On the other hand, on base system bugs for example voting would be more
> > a pressure tool that might not help much...
> >
> > We could enable voting on a "New Ebuilds" section and see how it goes ?
>
> Seems like a good approach in my opinion.  Most of the nays have
> basically come down to "I don't want people voting on stuff I'm
> working on, I know what needs to be done, don't need extra input to
> discern it".
> Ebuild submissions fall squarely outside of that arguement, and would
> be a good test run of it.
>
> Personally, I'd be interested in it for actual portage bugs; that
> said, I'm not totally sure if I'd want it enabled _now_ since there
> are internal changes needed rather then more feature bloat, so voting
> would be ignored till internal bits are done.

So who can make the decision here?

>
> My 2 cents...
> ~harring
mfg, heinrich :-)
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Another call for BugVoting on bugs.gentoo.org

[R Hill]

On 5/16/05, Alec Warner <warnera6@egr.msu.edu> wrote:
> >>On Mon, 16 May 2005 19:45:05 -0400 Mike Frysinger <vapier@gentoo.org>
> >>| On Monday 16 May 2005 07:08 pm, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> >>| > What, so that you can see which bugs a small but vocal group of
> >>| > ricers are interested in rather than the ones that're actually
> >>| > important?
> >>|
> >>| once again, voting is optional ... if you dont want to pay attention
> >>| to them,  then dont
> >>
> I would tend to agree with Klieber when he closed the actual bug about
> this issue that I read through a few weeks ago.  The problem with
> leaving it optional being users vote a bunch on bug X and then the
> developer says he doesn't care, and then the users bitch because 'their
> precious voice was ignored'.

They manage to do that pretty well already.
 
> Most if not all of the developers here are volunteers, and just because
> a bunch of users vote up a bug doesn't particularly make it important to
> work on.

Agreed, but it can give a good indication of the bugs that a lot of
users are running into.  Right now that's handled by swarms of "me
too" posts (and last time i checked, those couldn't be filtered by
procmail too effectively either. ;]).  Not saying those posts will
disappear of course, just pointing out that it might not be a creation
of another source of generally unwanted feedback, but a way to move
this already existing feedback into a less annoying form.

Mozilla is another good example of a bugzilla using a voting system
with positive results (and they even have windows users ;]).  But they
also use the confirmed status and discourage 'me too' posts in favor
of the vote system, which is something that might not work for Gentoo.

--de.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Another call for BugVoting on bugs.gentoo.org

[Donnie Berkholz]

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Heinrich Wendel wrote:
> I just read this: http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/view/1055 and think it 
> explains things very well.

I blogged [1] about this the other day. It also talks a bit about
bounties, which I was actually more interested in.

It's worth thinking about that it seems to be working well for KDE,
without all the spamming etc that Ciaran thinks will happen.

Thanks,
Donnie

1. http://www.livejournal.com/users/spyderous/30950.html
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Another call for BugVoting on bugs.gentoo.org

[Ciaran McCreesh]

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On Mon, 16 May 2005 16:47:17 -0700 Donnie Berkholz
<spyderous@gentoo.org> wrote:
| Heinrich Wendel wrote:
| > I just read this: http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/view/1055 and
| > think it  explains things very well.
| 
| I blogged [1] about this the other day. It also talks a bit about
| bounties, which I was actually more interested in.

Which would be even worse, since you'd end up getting cash offered for
silly version bumps and package adds and nothing at all for critical
stuff that the end user doesn't tend to see. Unlike KDE, we have
multiple 'layers' -- we're not just working on directly user visible
applications.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Vim, Shell tools, Fluxbox, Cron)
Mail            : ciaranm at gentoo.org
Web             : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Another call for BugVoting on bugs.gentoo.org

[Donnie Berkholz]

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Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Mon, 16 May 2005 16:47:17 -0700 Donnie Berkholz
> <spyderous@gentoo.org> wrote:
> | Heinrich Wendel wrote:
> | > I just read this: http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/view/1055 and
> | > think it  explains things very well.
> | 
> | I blogged [1] about this the other day. It also talks a bit about
> | bounties, which I was actually more interested in.
> 
> Which would be even worse, since you'd end up getting cash offered for
> silly version bumps and package adds and nothing at all for critical
> stuff that the end user doesn't tend to see. Unlike KDE, we have
> multiple 'layers' -- we're not just working on directly user visible
> applications.

My idea was that the foundation would foot the bounties. It sounds as if
you think the users would.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Another call for BugVoting on bugs.gentoo.org

[Jason Wever]

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On Mon, 16 May 2005 19:19:36 -0700
Donnie Berkholz <spyderous@gentoo.org> wrote:

> My idea was that the foundation would foot the bounties. It sounds as if
> you think the users would.

Personally, I would hope that (at least initially) the foundation would
have better applications for spending whatever financial resources it can
get.

Plus I'd hate to see the decision-making process over what was deemed
worth the bounties would be.  Even if just bugzilla voiting was used,
that could be heavily influenced in negative ways (i.e. "If you vote for
my bug, I'll vote for yours").

Cheers,
-- 
Jason Wever
Gentoo/Sparc Team Co-Lead

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Another call for BugVoting on bugs.gentoo.org

[Aron Griffis]

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Donnie Berkholz wrote:	[Mon May 16 2005, 07:47:17PM EDT]
> I blogged [1] about this the other day. It also talks a bit about
> bounties, which I was actually more interested in.

Bounties sound pretty scary to me.  One of Gentoo's enduring qualities
is that it is supported by volunteers.  Injecting money into the
development process will certainly change what problems get attention.
I think I like it better when devs get to choose objectively what
problems get attention, instead of being influenced by the promise of
cash (or any other prize).

Regards,
Aron

--
Aron Griffis
Gentoo Linux Developer


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Another call for BugVoting on bugs.gentoo.org

[Henrik Brix Andersen]

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On Wed, 2005-05-18 at 11:18 -0400, Aron Griffis wrote:
> Bounties sound pretty scary to me.  One of Gentoo's enduring qualities
> is that it is supported by volunteers.  Injecting money into the
> development process will certainly change what problems get attention.
> I think I like it better when devs get to choose objectively what
> problems get attention, instead of being influenced by the promise of
> cash (or any other prize).

I couldn't agree more.

Sincerely,
Brix
-- 
Henrik Brix Andersen <brix@gentoo.org>
Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Another call for BugVoting on bugs.gentoo.org

[Chris Gianelloni]

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On Wed, 2005-05-18 at 11:18 -0400, Aron Griffis wrote:
> Donnie Berkholz wrote:	[Mon May 16 2005, 07:47:17PM EDT]
> > I blogged [1] about this the other day. It also talks a bit about
> > bounties, which I was actually more interested in.
> 
> Bounties sound pretty scary to me.  One of Gentoo's enduring qualities
> is that it is supported by volunteers.  Injecting money into the
> development process will certainly change what problems get attention.
> I think I like it better when devs get to choose objectively what
> problems get attention, instead of being influenced by the promise of
> cash (or any other prize).

Ehh... I am *so* for being bribed... ;]

That being said, I prefer the "I'll order you a pizza if..." or the ever
popular "I owe you a pint whenever you come visit..." to the "I'll pay
you to fix..." which can definitely lead to development time following
the money trail rather than fixing bugs that might not be in the public
eye, but are much more widespread and important to Gentoo as a whole.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead/QA Manager
Games - Developer
Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Another call for BugVoting on bugs.gentoo.org

[Alin Nastac]

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Aron Griffis wrote:

>Donnie Berkholz wrote:	[Mon May 16 2005, 07:47:17PM EDT]
>  
>
>>I blogged [1] about this the other day. It also talks a bit about
>>bounties, which I was actually more interested in.
>>    
>>
>
>Bounties sound pretty scary to me.  One of Gentoo's enduring qualities
>is that it is supported by volunteers.  Injecting money into the
>development process will certainly change what problems get attention.
>I think I like it better when devs get to choose objectively what
>problems get attention, instead of being influenced by the promise of
>cash (or any other prize).
>
>
>  
>
this is also my opinion.

gentoo is developed by volunteers, not by mercenaries.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Another call for BugVoting on bugs.gentoo.org

[Michael Cummings]

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On Thursday 19 May 2005 02:56 am, Alin Nastac wrote:
> gentoo is developed by volunteers, not by mercenaries.

The occasional free pizza wouldn't hurt though. And some coffee. And some 
helper monkeys. Yeah, those three things should be considered acceptable 
prizes. I tried getting them to provide them to me at work, but they said 
something about my being salaried and needing to double my hour to 100 a week 
before they'd consider it.

-- 

-----o()o---------------------------------------------
Michael Cummings   |    #gentoo-dev, #gentoo-perl
Gentoo Perl Dev    |    on irc.freenode.net 
-----o()o---------------------------------------------

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