From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 50A1A1382C5 for ; Sun, 25 Mar 2018 04:43:54 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2A9EDE0814; Sun, 25 Mar 2018 04:43:47 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.gentoo.org (mail.gentoo.org [IPv6:2001:470:ea4a:1:5054:ff:fec7:86e4]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B221CE07F9 for ; Sun, 25 Mar 2018 04:43:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [IPv6:2600:8802:605:7900:2e33:7aff:fef2:3005] (unknown [IPv6:2600:8802:605:7900:2e33:7aff:fef2:3005]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: zmedico) by smtp.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D29D1335C4A; Sun, 25 Mar 2018 04:43:44 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] New Portage fork: sys-apps/portage-mgorny To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org, Kent Fredric References: <1521745426.836.25.camel@gentoo.org> <20180322214732.GA4096@eddy> <1521756383.23424.0.camel@gentoo.org> <23220.52565.280134.566970@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <0559e21f-edcb-986f-0a0b-1bc54bc169a6@gmail.com> <23220.56500.47110.798699@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <20180324200239.24cde39f@katipo2.lan> <1521878540.1070.0.camel@gentoo.org> <20180324220114.748273c5@katipo2.lan> <7f211ecf-a415-b91a-25fb-6cb1b456a8ca@gentoo.org> <20180325093340.4237c829@katipo2.lan> <25def267-c246-7c47-48f9-d889c9087ef2@gentoo.org> <20180325152638.53dca26a@katipo2.lan> From: Zac Medico Message-ID: Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2018 21:43:41 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.2 Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20180325152638.53dca26a@katipo2.lan> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="fR3OexIis2NqHszvMwF1p8ujLsyop42RX" X-Archives-Salt: 74f51acb-4eb5-4f68-aec2-1e826028dafd X-Archives-Hash: 983d3c93f09db3409931ec37b5c675fe This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --fR3OexIis2NqHszvMwF1p8ujLsyop42RX Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="IPvHKuxBij91dLhiLcD9FPRVGvmlSU5Rm"; protected-headers="v1" From: Zac Medico To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org, Kent Fredric Message-ID: Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] New Portage fork: sys-apps/portage-mgorny References: <1521745426.836.25.camel@gentoo.org> <20180322214732.GA4096@eddy> <1521756383.23424.0.camel@gentoo.org> <23220.52565.280134.566970@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <0559e21f-edcb-986f-0a0b-1bc54bc169a6@gmail.com> <23220.56500.47110.798699@a1i15.kph.uni-mainz.de> <20180324200239.24cde39f@katipo2.lan> <1521878540.1070.0.camel@gentoo.org> <20180324220114.748273c5@katipo2.lan> <7f211ecf-a415-b91a-25fb-6cb1b456a8ca@gentoo.org> <20180325093340.4237c829@katipo2.lan> <25def267-c246-7c47-48f9-d889c9087ef2@gentoo.org> <20180325152638.53dca26a@katipo2.lan> In-Reply-To: <20180325152638.53dca26a@katipo2.lan> --IPvHKuxBij91dLhiLcD9FPRVGvmlSU5Rm Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 03/24/2018 07:26 PM, Kent Fredric wrote: > On Sat, 24 Mar 2018 13:44:49 -0700 > Zac Medico wrote: >=20 >> That only happens when dependency satisfaction fails by normal means. >=20 > And when that happens, it is better to bail and go "Uh oh, something ba= d", > not "oh, right, lets install something that will likely make things > worse and additional work to fix" I don't think it's possible to have defaults that satisfy everyone. My hope that the --autounmask default will be helpful to some people, and I advise people to use --autounmask=3Dn if it's not helpful. > Its a regular occurrence that we have to tell people about this on #gen= too. Normally, it emerge shows a message like the following when it creates package.mask or ** keywords changes: NOTE: The --autounmask-keep-masks option will prevent emerge from creating package.unmask or ** keyword changes. >>> That default gets people using broken openssl and experimental >>> packages blindly without them ever having intended on getting into >>> experimental waters. =20 >> >> If people can't be bothered to understand the meaning of package.mask >> and keywords changes, should they really be using Gentoo? >=20 > And its not *entirely* true that this is the case. Toralf used to > complain portage couldn't find a resoultion and would try unmasking > insane stuff in the process of tinderboxing. >=20 > But lo and behold, by removing the ability to unmask ** and > package.mask, he reported a significant improvement in the ability to > test. That's great. I really don't expect the default to work well in every situation. > "RTFM?" is a terrible response to "you have bad defaults that make > things break" because that default is *only* useful to people who would= > consider using things that have *zero* expectation that they would work= =2E The --autounmask behavior only triggers when a dependency is encountered that cannot be satisfied by normal means. So, it means that the user is already using masked packages, or they have expressed a desire to install a masked package. > And that is not any majority demographic of the Gentoo user base. >=20 > Its not a useless feature, but its a feature that should only be > enabled after reading the documentation. But if the majority demographic is as you describe, then they shouldn't be using anything having dependencies that require package.unmask or ** keywords changes. --=20 Thanks, Zac --IPvHKuxBij91dLhiLcD9FPRVGvmlSU5Rm-- --fR3OexIis2NqHszvMwF1p8ujLsyop42RX Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHEEARECADEWIQSG5RNTeMgVEruefzL96O+FrlcZowUCWrco/hMcem1lZGljb0Bn ZW50b28ub3JnAAoJEP3o74WuVxmjLaEAn2ezBBx47muUNcPJcJgg4XEmamyeAJ4y wmBznZ/7lBRu//QwUyc7O9lmhA== =nHK4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --fR3OexIis2NqHszvMwF1p8ujLsyop42RX--