From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B1E2F138334 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2019 21:20:55 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EF25FE08E5; Tue, 15 Oct 2019 21:20:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 931FBE089A for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2019 21:20:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0093022087; Tue, 15 Oct 2019 17:20:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 15 Oct 2019 17:20:51 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=2PE1Ws PwoByxSPR9FcRx7+BFaY9+LZJgrOERaIhUiCI=; b=n9vcx+rixBhOil6ZP3bnW0 PJ6nH9Z+zmQ7DHw7WrYWarbioLqrbhe3akZwe/xQWVDy1NW5idMrCrtW4Pph8Z5+ dsrksKxNJi2ISO7MqytzzZuVoxpmb5rB/n+pvUlE8X5U2+y6Hqn4F6pcj60UxH6D utweYs4p80beepR0w8zdI7ivnxO8EgN3ONLvegm/bfYErV5pVkRFg8xVBIxvHKXK rCOqUNaQn4Sk8rSdew4FJKfxRqHriUiJeSc5gwtuAYbgOhI+iVS2VPnY0H5HThwd QmRNW0CF3j1e5kWrJnZm4IuTQpj1GX1e5N4W75YhwGF+oG73fOJWlj54KLDwRgdA == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedrjeefgdduiedtucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepuffvfhfhkfffgggjtgesghdtrefotddtjeenucfhrhhomhepifhokhhtuhhr khcujghukhhsvghkuceoghhokhhtuhhrkhesghgvnhhtohhordhorhhgqeenucffohhmrg hinhepghhithhhuhgsrdgtohhmnecukfhppedvfedruddvledrieegrddukedvnecurfgr rhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehgohhkthhurhhksehgvghnthhoohdrohhrghenucevlh hushhtvghrufhiiigvpedt X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [23.129.64.182]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 82B288005B; Tue, 15 Oct 2019 17:20:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] The demotivating process of contributing to devmanual To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org, =?UTF-8?B?TWljaGHFgiBHw7Nybnk=?= Cc: devmanual References: <7db69bdd30aeaf350f9c70c28abf9d890656d55c.camel@gentoo.org> From: Gokturk Yuksek Autocrypt: addr=gokturk@gentoo.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFY8kMEBEAClkkMsYPgJKv1nYgN/0bWXXnc/0tM1DQj+2QcL+MFN3vPRTUtXysp6x8qx PQ4fnFwho9CMxso8c0w3nw/2DkkMrduIJIm0c2/XlVnIFyw/iFEuJ2kMXUZfhZUi6czqrG30 eRAunoGpFd3Y9IdVH/CiF/9YStIAN6oryKHqTHI753u1dW3d2/fWKJKGK8uByxjcd4PrjDse o/5x+yMA8iV7l7UBrICX6kGgy1Y50PDZq+KzgH6z4JbrHtfhP043r4ja6AnABukv+qdpyPYI +bfRxY71Xhg13BByV6HVvH4YNCMbRysxRZq3JHcsbOFErCUfxQR9Gb+0hdlpoptgzUTjqjeh E2ic/80FwhJr9Xgd01KsdbAETOO/zzMHxWSJDdmO+gj/SRNm79D5EbtIPfnbkRm7PtwSRs44 WgMF1KlVBTpHedl3P3/ZPSDTti1D+uqTU9b94cNSbD3n0oLemQN5gZQ/GdPYUuMPzWe0nUH3 cu2aGDltNYOLoW6yTfs+SbwjMm89HEOcjTzRsHds+S6Y5BpwXCN241prbqX1DjcC17yFKJXH 8KGL1f4TJ5T1pnnQlBCfABuHoUBnOdwGaYiwNhCAdy05zSA1oWI4L8YXiOILkEqTOPrltDni vMBVZH5LehYKA+xbMXQ+k3rmOZj3WSjCOlwYpdvgDHtIEcRd2wARAQABtCZHw7ZrdMO8cmsg WcO8a3NlayA8Z29rdHVya0BnZW50b28ub3JnPokCTAQTAQoANgIbAwILCQMVCggCHgECF4AC GQEWIQS8cCX/mUTtcEVDQ6SUUo+HD+NwNAUCWjyLbAUJCbNnKwAKCRCUUo+HD+NwNByzD/4p So6fmbQLet2uQvscg32BxmaKjtrd36DijNYA4I/d+h7u/0shK1SFknFe+s9ciM+SrFGi3WjI OlVlBhXA9Lnoz3vmeURtDKsetKlYRmQJtvSSd7VMSqKZIoga/BgksNvvUWyH68B2AYmOEUxS hfiTDRZDVVShRyBfmOn6QhfnYk7z2vVXlN6JcZrysDqJBpBOM3qWpgwyt4YSGHpOStE0QzEZ 4Zn51iyEUdADNv8z/tMvkQg9L40zYNuAcuuTLlA1I5GK6pXnBuNvijzIpdoezeHLn0+bLtM1 h0j0z0MzmYgLJwZq9wVgzXMn3CwdApFhfwaAF65wrxPN3+R8B2uGYEeFH4DaDgKfTyNNld42 MRAJnZRJS0DhKVi+T83AWrs2N9NiPCwkDko1rzN4cW8eapeYHRrCQvPAx1uS+S/ZKgff53CZ REivXpPuqN+M36Cf4fInDRyPt/R52tvsjX3WpPc7Wacnet9p+IVWdMhX/PUe+XkRdyBHByMZ 5erNpUikR54cpoCsJmT7/NHG73SV9eFuKSiT7bdJ0W/Dd5stvt9+DgJS5+tvFoGrigiNOiHn Q1yqO/I19qlP3NwFKzDbc+5spzQKFqTI/tAG9XB6xE+ER6KJZy1PaKJUq+gaJH0wvLYmKmZm qgSavAyrFs+GGaqGwjzWpZvzxl8d/pAkVrkBDQRaPIpzAQgAtRwJFbfhqlaRiYD/SVsTyAtH YzFHgvsRCjVWW9uEwM1hLqFOFiODj131zD8mH8my+MZy/3ZtHsF56SdMITwTjP37LtS2qvem 4stxH9RZ1Hbh9OhxZtn/k+HUpthMpwO3jBCpwSijI+6lraKyhm7067tqhQBAhhDNMYL22B7G lvQ/uq/M1IpJfmdH61PbEJqqK+TZerVTr6ONZ5kCICXkz6rEph+ETsLrfIn3C/74PEV1o1xY RYL9VaHgB+nXgV88aUFMsAq+mNq7ioPfOLq5ggtBY6sRmbhL1fQkpyHw/RpsVn835PjuwgIW LpCR4jah4KBvkeuaMRzt8IIvz1et4wARAQABiQNyBBgBCAAmAhsCFiEEvHAl/5lE7XBFQ0Ok lFKPhw/jcDQFAlwvIr8FCQPSekwBQMB0IAQZAQgAHRYhBA9eJg8aKx7Y5NFdiGBLn/23xlUH BQJaPIpzAAoJEGBLn/23xlUHwQEH/RvH2fCdK1yHZ7dutppaNMrgqICunypF9tXHfZ9cf7gA nP96cGSr9DkLiWnVo2O6+qZ3yXlkMRNCoxc3pgT3HQZHrwPwYKiG4XIT09RXwx1VrtcVdtGL wAoUNl0cWdc9ykBmSSbSnLFNgh09CDz0Zoh5kdMWMgFmFqujS+dn+8yRwgTudjf0duc8SuaX DYMnIQFTxc/KZTAp3NvPOzn4ArE0suaZ9IQhE0ofLpfWF9F7sFp2W1eMajbU2u9Xv0z17u8l 3e/SrkQ4ToIgdEGx2OmzcrFCZW2Siu5+Q+9qpTG5yGDob/sb7n7GHI5N63PIGX4Ax41kdQXs ujMV4sNgRA8JEJRSj4cP43A02CEP/0MFtUOZTmN6217v6vIqsjjFjKfm7fDCRFjw63lUh30P 2UBhOSmIlL0pGLk+JmytI++srEpSG6G4zr+wC9FelK8F9VLqluNEqTdt5OGDCbhTJLPV8Mw0 lOZRLaBRCqxUq/fEyIOHxuY5Jcw1RnshiimFdhBMY5mHgriBRiuSCzhIJRRBvfwWqXMjB3Qc Ncte3R8TVrMDOSDSl4bgzl/Y4FYu9uhKP8mwTIT2Uo+jnIB6ebvjb4aXCSTT1VraVtniZs1/ rJL8k+H0TCymK7TkywljkaZOEtR0SHIPZ9YEy58mFSRqepzWDq5KoDMvwRoAkk63Ys6YPR7f 4ZTBkrQWusxqtLHqmruZvidV/rrG8NrHuoZxD9tzW3JaeUxDsfZ6JfMEkNOiBKiOlegqrdMB ST2T7emTFAVx/cumUeYFdK/CVuYqMlbN9Srqke/odOpjTxj6qcYHFBuyYefJ2HDEfwMNHT/6 LSRb6B0DggVmOfFapuZp+wGR+9lixz81nuFj+HTW2M8x13nv0ONpZmqsCCBWVx9gTXuvsZon tlT6/JxnFPKxfWFiL6YNiTKYd61kU6b0TMCxkobKVkULwt5XRt8638QCoUbjdGf/L0j8qqqX vFB+fKBc6XfTGgsDMQB19miupshNtx+qRzpkvPfj/ZIkYB+VWoCQtEzyAQbtzrJJuQENBFo8 irABCAC54CSclDAoghtEIznONdCT8eKDFLiKew8iLyHrw/YndpvUVmPCUXw/XafcBgQKtMPM ye2sgJ57lxl6pL36RYFWVlc2+o/m51uSH3AHlsroJftxgU29iNTyNvtuSeYAMz23nrD0057c 43l5/rzUoiAbApsehvBa/72kXySzWtr7pIu/9bsFiFcXT8liLJtulMqRpgGZEC+akZFKEpWs N5SJYawu/7vu2HZhhPr52OEnDL3z5e2Z7ubv1xZQjhZV4zvGdYKqeV9B+TuqeQJXgoY6z26x bEq4NMBElhos/4vcie5cXD1KGvzFv/e49mTkyUwbmjMd/vNgmXrb/dRJ5GrTABEBAAGJAjwE GAEIACYCGwwWIQS8cCX/mUTtcEVDQ6SUUo+HD+NwNAUCXC8ixgUJA9J6DwAKCRCUUo+HD+Nw NEKTEACCroyzCVNwzfBWoNMKFQyHeH9dcxN+wERm2rpF21XUQ90trTqln/I0rbsdza/Cros9 hCxtXgZug3FegWBl9VBfz7eLoatvHDVVePAJYKNpP2L6061Er9e+QCUi+RHCapHiZVnFueWZ vpAkWA5+6i3IpUhjaYU/sCt+V2ns/Fn0fJNOe5WGm2rG3uONTER7mbknAC6jTNQ1TLdGlT63 kvyOB8vXmSex+8pnqxYowl16P4dNAxBQaLg0WRDGy4bZvc7zoMJYgPXr/37rANVVCvVVK4P5 Rk/14eon2xiSaPNnMr6dGYRmaYiHmWD9Vapsi+tIA5W6No25j3X7ehlYGpkMTS6LjCJt8xKy h+opvyXxiUODckIGUPaurcG4ZRpHD4/N3T98VVAhU1A7mUP7vWCfsyAfEqihno5m7h2avg7L hQWRcmElkxxkrpXfC9JNWiTSs8ZZGLN1KdLAyfqozKrRGh3o0hpCLH4PH27utk5t5nPcqe9G oR5dTf/pil9/DurzQYGGkvsBtkmYFkj/3iL0Dodz8mtQMxv5NZ0J0lwY8eIMRi4wPXMdwTgE +78/mBdzpxh8Hy47zOvd3JlmOcKf3SNiAp71EgTzZ4dkMjwv2UKIkM3XBOBhZWeqYHBNqt+L nZr0h+nnxTJleBgtuRjPZs8A9H5WjJOXskinN033sQ== Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 17:20:17 -0400 Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org X-Auto-Response-Suppress: DR, RN, NRN, OOF, AutoReply MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7db69bdd30aeaf350f9c70c28abf9d890656d55c.camel@gentoo.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="XzUAbp9IrX0Kse9Xk5S007D0FMnZ6RD9j" X-Archives-Salt: 1ce5ed97-6f0e-493d-b355-5babdbfd8e5e X-Archives-Hash: da82c579e730b61e0af8251e668df28f This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --XzUAbp9IrX0Kse9Xk5S007D0FMnZ6RD9j Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="rfJLyXtqLyLOLP5Qa65wRHPrelDaskwKf"; protected-headers="v1" From: Gokturk Yuksek To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org, =?UTF-8?B?TWljaGHFgiBHw7Nybnk=?= Cc: devmanual Message-ID: Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] The demotivating process of contributing to devmanual References: <7db69bdd30aeaf350f9c70c28abf9d890656d55c.camel@gentoo.org> In-Reply-To: <7db69bdd30aeaf350f9c70c28abf9d890656d55c.camel@gentoo.org> --rfJLyXtqLyLOLP5Qa65wRHPrelDaskwKf Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Micha=C5=82 G=C3=B3rny: > Hello, everyone. >=20 > I'd like to highlight a major problem with devmanual. For a basic > policy & developer documentation thingie, it's quality is so-so at best= =2E > A lot of stuff is missing, lots of things are outdated or even > incorrect. Not many people are contributing, and those who try quickly= > resign. > First of all, thank you for trying to get things fixed. > I have been very patient with this. However, my pressure has just rise= n > dangerously, and I think it's time to lay my frustration down on this > list. Maybe this will finally change something because my supplication= s > were unsuccessful so far. >=20 I wish you communicated this particular frustration clearly before it made you very angry. > So a typical case of contributing to devmanual looks like this: >=20 > 1. You put an effort to make a good patch. You submit it and wait. >=20 > 2. Usually, after 2 weeks you get review, with a lot of grammar > nitpicks. I get that having nice pretty words is important, so I apply= > them. If I have also tried to keep a nice history, I end up putting > the requested changes in appropriate commits. This usually takes > as much time as the original change but sure, worth it. >=20 If you don't want me to review the grammar of the PR, feel free to tell me. You can ask me to focus specifically on certain aspects of it. I'm used to reviewing academic papers, so I do it the way I'm used to. I think this is a miscommunication on our part. > 3. If you're unlucky, you're told that you're using the wrong formattin= g > style. For example, you used the style of the preceding section which > is wrong. Or tyle style from style document which is apparently also > wrong [1]. But don't worry, after having to reformat a major change > twice you learn to remember the style acceptable by current devmanual > project people. >=20 > 4. You wait again. With some luck, this time less than two weeks. The= n > you learn you need to do more grammar changes. Possibly to stuff you'v= e > already changed before. Fixing already takes more time than starting > from scratch. >=20 > 5. Eventually, you discover you can't even properly merge the changes > back into your commits because the devmanual developers made you start > changing stuff you didn't touch in the first place. >=20 > Then you look at 'git log' and top your frustration with the fact that > person who just made you waste another total of 4 hours to > unsuccessfully try to update an important document so that it doesn't > list practices we don't do for 10+ years, has not made a single change > himself in 2 years! >=20 It's true that I haven't been able to author much content to devmanual recently. If you look at the same log though, I'm still one of the few people who commit to the repo. I at least try to review patches and commit them with what little time I have. > No offense intended. I understand people don't have much time. I can > understand that people can't even find time to review stuff and get it > merged within less than a month. But if you don't have time yourself, > why do you keep behaving like everyone else must have tons of free time= > to get everything perfect for you? >=20 > I'm going to be blunt here. If you applied suggested changes yourself > instead of writing them for me to do, you'd save a lot of time for us > both. Or if you just merged it and fixed it yourself afterwards. > Or accepted the fact that everything doesn't have to be perfect, > and reasonably correct documentation with imperfect grammar is better > than obsolete useless documentation that also has imperfect grammar jus= t > because it was written before your time. >=20 And I can do that for you, if you simply communicate this to me. If you just want me to do a high level overview of the patch, whether the information is correct, and fits the section, just tell me. I don't intend to behave in the way you describe. I'm sorry if I come off that way to you. I spend the time to point out those fixes anyway. It's easier for me to just fix it too. I do it out of my respect to you, so you don't feel like I'm changing your work arbitrarily. > That's all. I've been meaning to write this multiple times but I've > instead decided to cool down and spend another hours just to get > the work done. Just so I would have a good document to give our proxie= d > maintainers to read, or so I wouldn't have to explain them why our > documentation is wrong about every third thing. This time I'm saying > enough. >=20 > Most of my pull requests were apparently approved, so they might be > finally merged some day. The update to mirrors [2] still needs > requested changes applied, so if you someone wants to take it over, > please do. The PR on upstream licenses [3] is still waiting on the mai= n > review. >=20 The PRs usually get stalled because I try to get at least one more developer to ack the changes before I merge. There are PRs that I approved, and are still waiting for another ack. Outside of that, I'm willing to change our workflow in a way that's more comfortable for you. > That's all. I guess it's the place where you suggest how we can fix > this mess. >=20 >=20 > [1] https://github.com/gentoo/devmanual.gentoo.org/blob/master/appendic= es/contributing/devbook-guide/text.xml > [2] https://github.com/gentoo/devmanual.gentoo.org/pull/110 > [3] https://github.com/gentoo/devmanual.gentoo.org/pull/109 >=20 -- gokturk --rfJLyXtqLyLOLP5Qa65wRHPrelDaskwKf-- --XzUAbp9IrX0Kse9Xk5S007D0FMnZ6RD9j Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEED14mDxorHtjk0V2IYEuf/bfGVQcFAl2mOBkACgkQYEuf/bfG VQcXSQf+ND0Ue8K0/PbjbvxIJVk6cUY7h1klXVM7PH4m0Ck8pGfuW5MIuean5yLw u6QcarcwAl85RfNtWyXQQNBrBxuU5vlLedZk04T89ndW+VDD8tvFH2otVPqlOs/h XzKZuZjWHneJrgsftTmqBsE7sLrc6ojxMAaMvyRkMYb3EuxKo29Qd2UmG7f8XnlO jZXZ/CQKHjQFy7v3DbeaaDqAVPZJlnrc50xzPDXOnV3eyGCjPP5T5Kujd1ovq3Gs pg+g2vBoUXr19Nvc8WRJpq2Y5fLUHA2X/+3PkBW4NHtemi2LWJiXddmJ4G92eZu4 0ESliyaQqxT9oB14oMU5iuLIG+wuOg== =OrAk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --XzUAbp9IrX0Kse9Xk5S007D0FMnZ6RD9j--