From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 12015138330 for ; Sun, 28 Aug 2016 07:24:59 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 278D1E0A84; Sun, 28 Aug 2016 07:24:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.gentoo.org (smtp.gentoo.org [140.211.166.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1078CE08E6 for ; Sun, 28 Aug 2016 07:24:49 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [46.246.37.132] (anon-37-132.vpn.ipredator.se [46.246.37.132]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: zlg) by smtp.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 37A28340845 for ; Sun, 28 Aug 2016 07:24:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] rfc: /etc/hostname on gentoo To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org References: <20160822155808.GA16219@whubbs1.gaikai.biz> <20160822220925.GB18116@whubbs1.gaikai.biz> <20160823195746.GA21460@whubbs1.gaikai.biz> <24d9469d-fa6f-ffde-797e-420eca01d2a1@gentoo.org> <45fe53a7-626f-62af-398c-2397aedb3064@gentoo.org> <8edbc51b-366b-e32f-4e8d-2ca894f77ca6@gentoo.org> <68746884-3a34-944d-4649-07c282ea38cd@gentoo.org> <2ecb3f7d-4b60-bc34-2673-aad6d2dc5ae9@gentoo.org> <245bf9cd-648f-5ab1-0ff3-8bfe554bd592@gentoo.org> <20160828084808.3c9a5a1c.mgorny@gentoo.org> From: Daniel Campbell Message-ID: Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2016 00:24:41 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.2.0 Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20160828084808.3c9a5a1c.mgorny@gentoo.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="XkHe18GnnPBTMUwjoX7dTCI7w0xfn5ENh" X-Archives-Salt: 52d98539-92b3-4353-b5b5-0e2bf13eedb5 X-Archives-Hash: b5c028a7bc4addfa7f45fca0a7889ff7 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --XkHe18GnnPBTMUwjoX7dTCI7w0xfn5ENh Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="DdkOhJchQW9gqkv6AJoFxv4ci6wW1loqF" From: Daniel Campbell To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] rfc: /etc/hostname on gentoo References: <20160822155808.GA16219@whubbs1.gaikai.biz> <1471894124.32381.0.camel@gentoo.org> <20160822220925.GB18116@whubbs1.gaikai.biz> <20160823195746.GA21460@whubbs1.gaikai.biz> <24d9469d-fa6f-ffde-797e-420eca01d2a1@gentoo.org> <45fe53a7-626f-62af-398c-2397aedb3064@gentoo.org> <8edbc51b-366b-e32f-4e8d-2ca894f77ca6@gentoo.org> <68746884-3a34-944d-4649-07c282ea38cd@gentoo.org> <2ecb3f7d-4b60-bc34-2673-aad6d2dc5ae9@gentoo.org> <245bf9cd-648f-5ab1-0ff3-8bfe554bd592@gentoo.org> <20160828084808.3c9a5a1c.mgorny@gentoo.org> In-Reply-To: <20160828084808.3c9a5a1c.mgorny@gentoo.org> --DdkOhJchQW9gqkv6AJoFxv4ci6wW1loqF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 08/27/2016 11:48 PM, Micha=C5=82 G=C3=B3rny wrote: > On Sat, 27 Aug 2016 23:30:09 -0700 > Daniel Campbell wrote: >=20 >> On 08/24/2016 09:42 AM, Zac Medico wrote: >>> On 08/24/2016 09:33 AM, Michael Orlitzky wrote: =20 >>>> * no benefit put forth so far, other than that it's the same file = that >>>> systemd uses, which is true but not beneficial as far as I can t= ell =20 >>> >>> It's a de facto standard. Being different for the sake of being >>> different is not a virtue in cases like this. >>> =20 >> >> And doing things because "everyone else does it" is dumb, because it >> precludes our ability to choose and makes us subject to the decisions >> made outside of our distribution. Of course, as a distro we're subject= >> to outside decisions often, but what's the point of being a distro if >> you're doing things the same way everyone else does? >=20 > And doing things different just because "we can" is even more dumb, > because it precludes our ability to offer users consistent environment > and makes us subject to the decisions made by random Gentoo developers > long time ago. Of course, as a distro we're subject to single developer= > decisions often, but what's the point of being a distro if you are > bound to bad decisions made in the past by a single person? >=20 > Not saying that I care but just pointing out how dumb this > argumentation is. >=20 Well, the thing is that -- on a Gentoo system -- /etc/conf.d/ is pretty consistent. We still ship some things in their typical location, like fstab, locale.gen, etc, but those don't directly relate to OpenRC and aren't (to my knowledge) part of its problem space. The files in /etc/conf.d/ that don't relate to system settings are shortcuts to setting daemon options instead of shoving them into the scripts. So if we go with /etc/hostname, it's inconsistent with what we (Gentoo) do but in line with most others. The inverse is also true, putting us in a catch-22. The "do both" will attract ire from some of us, but the prior suggestion to throw it into an ebuild phase will largely avoid this bikeshedding. Whether or not the phase can do that *cleanly* and *correctly* is another matter for a different thread, but I do think Portage (the openrc or systemd/docker/whatever package(s)) should be handling that on Gentoo in order to reduce clutter and confusion. There is one technical concern, though... If the OpenRC ebuild symlinks or otherwise owns /etc/hostname and the user switches to a systemd profile, would Portage be smart enough to leave /etc/hostname alone and let the packages switch ownership of the file? They create an ownership block otherwise, as (I assume) systemd would also own the file. Other inits may, as well, and I'm fairly sure you can run Gentoo without OpenRC at all. Would we expect the user to create the file before switching profiles, and not permit OpenRC to own the file? -- off-topic below -- I think "because we can", in the right circumstances, is a great reason to do something. That's how ideas are tested and come to fruition. Distributions need to have some sort of vision or strongly held belief in order to form a good following, or software that exemplifies said vision. Collaboration is important, sure, but design-by-committee is proven to be a terrible process that's prone to analysis paralysis, bikeshedding, and encourages a culture of yes-men (and/or yes-women for those who want PC speech). There is a middle ground where people work together when it's beneficial and makes sense, and go their own way on certain decisions. It's what created the distribution model in the first place. For the most part, the "we should do what everyone else is doing" train is slowly reducing most distribution differences to a package manager and some default backgrounds. I can't speak for you or other people but I personally enjoy technical diversity. The distribution model allows for many different approaches to be followed: things from Gentoo to Slackware, Debian to Arch, Fedora, Gobolinux, CRUX, SuSE, etc. Doing things "because we can" is a feature, imo, not a bug. A consolidated GNU/Linux world would be terrible and far less colorful. --=20 Daniel Campbell - Gentoo Developer OpenPGP Key: 0x1EA055D6 @ hkp://keys.gnupg.net fpr: AE03 9064 AE00 053C 270C 1DE4 6F7A 9091 1EA0 55D6 --DdkOhJchQW9gqkv6AJoFxv4ci6wW1loqF-- --XkHe18GnnPBTMUwjoX7dTCI7w0xfn5ENh Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJXwpG5AAoJEAEkDpRQOeFwxWMP/1joLal4FCoMYEJbAXZFLAuG q1z+76tZtOvZYUX+z14o4XTJ6c3VU/OIL8PhovqCDqKs56f+/xFknvhGBoDw2/MK hgvUrMXS5lr/dxzsOlT1mW5bZQG01WDNvuGgi1SYUi+iVHdnyj/ToUVB7UozpZVb 8qBeZJHg97tpBmwobTSNPptr7qF5zumO4/NCcfF5p4xoPUGwmnjT3tR5AobQ5B3d BD4IdahBqqtVcX3SOS0OxzR9wIdNLMtzQf2LfHCmTlxHvCIpdwYJeUwEMuyujsnL QFKJ9fIQeMxXk6DFPzAs3TrEcdZ7LnW31PpswyOjkxYeIgdmvereAlyStItL2rZS XLm/tzbHXPkrWxd0ReQ0QXHxko6nHPZR7j3RcoAp5mRwtYd3F8c7tXdC3UMxzPp7 6pjh5AxZ5JT+oCeuQFVeKfBCJAmFirRhXeZwh33icAq7PSJu0MrnmQsPDEv+j6Ea YnvRmr0grCdnGJNO5FE1kFJYalQyxkUUxVGKbcCS3nByfU6OgVLUKkUTgOBx4FHk 4uBmQBr9g0xzWCIRJu+i5D1y3BCmkSJ63zscnUtmf08+RwIRSXeB0yIv/IAajeID RRD04aPAmaeQtFqtgZKlsFyAXPRhj8ou5rnrzZhzbIa3O4GhDZtY7gea9EH87TJ0 F2JI12GmBb9pCgmI8JhB =Ecyb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --XkHe18GnnPBTMUwjoX7dTCI7w0xfn5ENh--