[gentoo-dev] Cross Post due to technical component - Thanks for all the fish

[gentoo-dev] Cross Post due to technical component - Thanks for all the fish

[Craig Inches]

Hi,

I have decided to stop involvement with the Project as a proxied
maintainer, and to stop pursuing becoming a developer. Two main
reasons for this, one the community is at times openly hostile on the
mailing lists and IRC, of which I have asked people on IRC about whom
have responded this is the norm(once in awhile vents is fine it
happens but this has been consistently visible) this is ignoring
cultural differences that may cause misunderstanding; Secondly the
community is very insular and unwelcoming to new comers.

In twelve months of working with people only 2 have actively
encouraged involvement (shout out to Idella4 and pacho for this), some
projects didn't respond, or if they did they provided no details or
feedback to those of us who where new and trying to contribute. I
don't want to mention names about the negatives because I don't blame
the individuals; it too me seems to be systemic within the community.
I have a few comments about how I think you could improve things, but
feel free to ignore they are offered in the spirit of constructive
criticism:

Review your CoC, its open to abuse as pointed out on another thread.
Enforcement of rules should be consistent.
Review your recruitment strategies, and framework for contribution.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ might be of interest to some
posters! construct a well reason argument - but be prepared to
reconsider!
Finally encourage Active involvement from all Developers in Gentoo
matters not just in their packages, apathy is your worst enemy

I have updated one outstanding ticket for bugzilla from last week that
was assigned to me as maintainer wanted, and will shortly put through
a pull request on github which updates the meta data for bugzilla and
displaycal removing me as a maintainer.

To end on a positive note, I was a user for many years and will
continue for the short term at the very least as I think the concept
of gentoo is great.

Cheers,
Craig

[gentoo-dev] Re: [gentoo-project] Cross Post due to technical component - Thanks for all the fish

[konsolebox]

On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 12:35 AM, Craig Inches <craig@xayto.net> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I have decided to stop involvement with the Project as a proxied
> maintainer, and to stop pursuing becoming a developer. Two main
> reasons for this, one the community is at times openly hostile on the
> mailing lists and IRC, of which I have asked people on IRC about whom
> have responded this is the norm(once in awhile vents is fine it
> happens but this has been consistently visible) this is ignoring
> cultural differences that may cause misunderstanding; Secondly the
> community is very insular and unwelcoming to new comers.

I sense that some people are more worried about their own merits, than
solutions.

-- 
konsolebox

Re: [gentoo-dev] Cross Post due to technical component - Thanks for all the fish

[james]

On 12/06/2016 11:35 AM, Craig Inches wrote:
> Hi,

> I have decided to stop involvement with the Project as a proxied
> maintainer, and to stop pursuing becoming a developer. Two main
> reasons for this, one the community is at times openly hostile on the
> mailing lists and IRC, of which I have asked people on IRC about whom
> have responded this is the norm(once in awhile vents is fine it
> happens but this has been consistently visible) this is ignoring
> cultural differences that may cause misunderstanding; Secondly the
> community is very insular and unwelcoming to new comers.

Sadly, you are at least partially correct. Thick skin should be listed 
as a requirement to participate with Gentoo.  A while back, we we were 
promised an email channel for gentoo-proxy folks that did not get on 
well with IRC. It never materialized, so I too cut my losses with irc
as a blocker to becoming a gentoo dev. Also, I've has several folks
promise to work with individually to obtain proxy status, but they all
just disappear. No doubt, back_channel chatter from some jaded devs 
greased that relationship.

So, I've been planing to just have my own repo, work on ebuilds as
I like (actually accumulated close to 50 now) and F those a.holes....
Then along comes Anna:: what a breath of fresh are and wisdom beyond
her years (see her recent post on gentoo-dev), if you have not already
done so.


> In twelve months of working with people only 2 have actively
> encouraged involvement (shout out to Idella4 and pacho for this), some
> projects didn't respond, or if they did they provided no details or
> feedback to those of us who where new and trying to contribute. I
> don't want to mention names about the negatives because I don't blame
> the individuals; it too me seems to be systemic within the community.
> I have a few comments about how I think you could improve things, but
> feel free to ignore they are offered in the spirit of constructive
> criticism:

> Review your CoC, its open to abuse as pointed out on another thread.
> Enforcement of rules should be consistent.
> Review your recruitment strategies, and framework for contribution.
> https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ might be of interest to some
> posters! construct a well reason argument - but be prepared to
> reconsider!
> Finally encourage Active involvement from all Developers in Gentoo
> matters not just in their packages, apathy is your worst enemy

> I have updated one outstanding ticket for bugzilla from last week that
> was assigned to me as maintainer wanted, and will shortly put through
> a pull request on github which updates the meta data for bugzilla and
> displaycal removing me as a maintainer.

> To end on a positive note, I was a user for many years and will
> continue for the short term at the very least as I think the concept
> of gentoo is great.

Anna Wilcox has proposed some new and invigorating ideas so that all of 
gentoo may prosper from the splintering into the various gentoo derived 
distributions. In fact I sincerely hope that her ideas are coalesced 
into a GLEP and that forking gentoo, (which is already a meta_distro) is 
rigorously supported and encouraged and stream-lined. I just hope those 
sailing the Gentoo ship, learn some humility and how to assimilate the 
best of the ideas from the various gentoo-derived distros back into 
gentoo proper. CoreOS is a very rich source of materials and ideas, ripe 
for integration back into gentoo-proper, imho;ymmv.

My research on Anna yields a deep wisdom and I have found new reasons 
for joy, related to gentoo, because of her (team) vision. Perhaps you 
should at least go and view www.adelielinux.org.

She is definitely of leadership quality, with impeccable vision and 
manners. I for one, know I can only dream about such qualities, but I'm 
old and cantankerous and fit right in here at gentoo, with the strong 
collective of 'old  bastards'.....

P.S. Never give up on Gentoo, as that would be unwise, imho.


Peace and Best of luck to you, Craig.

James


> Cheers,
> Craig

Re: [gentoo-dev] Cross Post due to technical component - Thanks for all the fish

[Gokturk Yuksek]

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Hi,

james:
> On 12/06/2016 11:35 AM, Craig Inches wrote:
>> Hi,
> 
>> I have decided to stop involvement with the Project as a proxied
>> maintainer, and to stop pursuing becoming a developer. Two main
>> reasons for this, one the community is at times openly hostile on the
>> mailing lists and IRC, of which I have asked people on IRC about whom
>> have responded this is the norm(once in awhile vents is fine it
>> happens but this has been consistently visible) this is ignoring
>> cultural differences that may cause misunderstanding; Secondly the
>> community is very insular and unwelcoming to new comers.
> 
> Sadly, you are at least partially correct. Thick skin should be listed
> as a requirement to participate with Gentoo.  A while back, we we were
> promised an email channel for gentoo-proxy folks that did not get on
> well with IRC. It never materialized, so I too cut my losses with irc
> as a blocker to becoming a gentoo dev. Also, I've has several folks
> promise to work with individually to obtain proxy status, but they all
> just disappear. No doubt, back_channel chatter from some jaded devs
> greased that relationship.
> 

The mailing list for proxy-maint was created 5 months ago [0], can be
reached by emailing gentoo-proxy-maint@lists.gentoo.org after
subscribing, and the archive is located at [1].

Regarding your comment on working with individual developers, I have not
seen anything related to that in the project alias. I would be more than
happy to personally help you out with proxy-maintainership.

Thanks,

--
gokturk

[0] https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=581370
[1] https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-proxy-maint/



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Cross Post due to technical component - Thanks for all the fish

[Robin H. Johnson]

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On Tue, Dec 06, 2016 at 01:13:12PM -0500, james wrote:
> A while back, we we were promised an email channel for gentoo-proxy
> folks that did not get on well with IRC. It never materialized, 
The mail alias proxy-maint@gentoo.org (same alias as proxy-maintainers@)
has 22 people on it. It was created 2013/09/26.

The list gentoo-proxy-maint@lists.gentoo.org was created 2016/05/29.
I don't see much usage of it, nobody has emailed since August.
https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-proxy-maint/

The request for it was filed and tracked here:
https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=581370

How exactly is that never materialized?

-- 
Robin Hugh Johnson
Gentoo Linux: Dev, Infra Lead, Foundation Trustee & Treasurer
E-Mail   : robbat2@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP : 11ACBA4F 4778E3F6 E4EDF38E B27B944E 34884E85
GnuPG FP : 7D0B3CEB E9B85B1F 825BCECF EE05E6F6 A48F6136

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Cross Post due to technical component - Thanks for all the fish

[james]

On 12/06/2016 07:29 PM, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 06, 2016 at 01:13:12PM -0500, james wrote:
>> A while back, we we were promised an email channel for gentoo-proxy
>> folks that did not get on well with IRC. It never materialized,
> The mail alias proxy-maint@gentoo.org (same alias as proxy-maintainers@)
> has 22 people on it. It was created 2013/09/26.
>
> The list gentoo-proxy-maint@lists.gentoo.org was created 2016/05/29.
> I don't see much usage of it, nobody has emailed since August.
> https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-proxy-maint/
>
> The request for it was filed and tracked here:
> https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=581370
>
> How exactly is that never materialized?
>


I subscribe on 6/23/2016::

From:: gentoo-proxy-maint+help@lists.gentoo.org

gentoo-proxy-maint+help@lists.gentoo.org



Hi, this is the Mlmmj program managing the
<gentoo-proxy-maint@lists.gentoo.org> mailing list.

Somebody (and we hope it was you) has requested that your email address
<garftd@verizon.net> be added to the list, without mail delivery. This
means you will not receive any posts to the list, but you are considered 
a member. This means, for instance, you are able to post to a list which 
only subscribers may post to, while you follow the list using a web 
archive or another subscribed email address.

To confirm you want to do this, please send a message to
<gentoo-proxy-maint+confsub-nomail-75dc5ad5188e6314-garftd=verizon.net@lists.gentoo.org>
which can usually be done simply by replying to this message. The subject
and the body of the message can be anything.

After doing so, you should receive a reply informing you that the operation
succeeded.


And here is the reply::

gentoo-proxy-maint+confsub-nomail-75dc5ad5188e6314-garftd=verizon.net@lists.gentoo.org

on 6/23/2016 10:21am

.................................................




So I just now sent email to :
proxy-maint+subscribe@gentoo.org


NO answer on this attempt. ON this page::
https://www.gentoo.org/get-involved/mailing-lists/all-lists.html

All I see is: gentoo-proxy-maint

Am I subscribe?  Did I miss the exact syntax to get subscribed?

Perhaps proxy-maint@gentoo.org needs to be listed with the rest of
the mailing lists?



let's see if that one goes through (nothing after 10 minutes).


My goal is to read that list and publish documents on what is exactly 
needed to get dev status. I think it's not a good idea to force folks to 
use irc to learn about proxy-maint, get help on ebuilds when you need it 
so there should be a nice set of document and tests one can work 
through, without intervention. Then take the quizes and be treated like 
an outcast for a while, before being able to work the portage tree. I am 
not interested in anything core to gentoo. I am extremely
interested in building minimized cluster ebuilds and wrapping them up
in stage-4s for ease of installation. Really, nothing threatening at all.



I already finished up both quiz, including the second(exit) one, but 
there was a few question that were incomplete.
That was all right befor Goktuk did his revision work, so I'd like to
answer the updated quized, as most of the questions, when I answered,
were not even up to EAPI-5. Where are the quiz questions.


Oh yea, I emailed those quizes timely to one of the devs I was working 
with, and got no answer. (sorry, not going to identify that dev). So I 
prefer to answer the latest quizes; you guys can figure out who I should 
send those to.




  I never got any mail from the list. I could see a few postings via 
gmane.org. Sure, gmane is mostly dysfunctional now.  I never saw or any 
information on the second list....


James

Re: [gentoo-dev] Cross Post due to technical component - Thanks for all the fish

[M. J. Everitt]

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On 07/12/16 01:59, james wrote:
> On 12/06/2016 07:29 PM, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
>> On Tue, Dec 06, 2016 at 01:13:12PM -0500, james wrote:
>>> A while back, we we were promised an email channel for gentoo-proxy
>>> folks that did not get on well with IRC. It never materialized,
>> The mail alias proxy-maint@gentoo.org (same alias as proxy-maintainers@)
>> has 22 people on it. It was created 2013/09/26.
>>
>> The list gentoo-proxy-maint@lists.gentoo.org was created 2016/05/29.
>> I don't see much usage of it, nobody has emailed since August.
>> https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-proxy-maint/
>>
>> The request for it was filed and tracked here:
>> https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=581370
>>
>> How exactly is that never materialized?
>>
>
>
> I subscribe on 6/23/2016::
>
> From:: gentoo-proxy-maint+help@lists.gentoo.org
>
> gentoo-proxy-maint+help@lists.gentoo.org
>
>
>
> Hi, this is the Mlmmj program managing the
> <gentoo-proxy-maint@lists.gentoo.org> mailing list.
>
> Somebody (and we hope it was you) has requested that your email address
> <garftd@verizon.net> be added to the list, without mail delivery. This
> means you will not receive any posts to the list, but you are
> considered a member. This means, for instance, you are able to post to
> a list which only subscribers may post to, while you follow the list
> using a web archive or another subscribed email address.
>
> To confirm you want to do this, please send a message to
> <gentoo-proxy-maint+confsub-nomail-75dc5ad5188e6314-garftd=verizon.net@lists.gentoo.org>
>
> which can usually be done simply by replying to this message. The subject
> and the body of the message can be anything.
>
> After doing so, you should receive a reply informing you that the
> operation
> succeeded.
>
>
> And here is the reply::
>
> gentoo-proxy-maint+confsub-nomail-75dc5ad5188e6314-garftd=verizon.net@lists.gentoo.org
>
>
> on 6/23/2016 10:21am
>
> .................................................
>
>
>
>
> So I just now sent email to :
> proxy-maint+subscribe@gentoo.org
>
>
> NO answer on this attempt. ON this page::
> https://www.gentoo.org/get-involved/mailing-lists/all-lists.html
>
> All I see is: gentoo-proxy-maint
>
> Am I subscribe?  Did I miss the exact syntax to get subscribed?
>
> Perhaps proxy-maint@gentoo.org needs to be listed with the rest of
> the mailing lists?
>
>
>
> let's see if that one goes through (nothing after 10 minutes).
>
>
> My goal is to read that list and publish documents on what is exactly
> needed to get dev status. I think it's not a good idea to force folks
> to use irc to learn about proxy-maint, get help on ebuilds when you
> need it so there should be a nice set of document and tests one can
> work through, without intervention. Then take the quizes and be
> treated like an outcast for a while, before being able to work the
> portage tree. I am not interested in anything core to gentoo. I am
> extremely
> interested in building minimized cluster ebuilds and wrapping them up
> in stage-4s for ease of installation. Really, nothing threatening at all.
>
>
>
> I already finished up both quiz, including the second(exit) one, but
> there was a few question that were incomplete.
> That was all right befor Goktuk did his revision work, so I'd like to
> answer the updated quized, as most of the questions, when I answered,
> were not even up to EAPI-5. Where are the quiz questions.
>
>
> Oh yea, I emailed those quizes timely to one of the devs I was working
> with, and got no answer. (sorry, not going to identify that dev). So I
> prefer to answer the latest quizes; you guys can figure out who I
> should send those to.
>
>
>
>
>  I never got any mail from the list. I could see a few postings via
> gmane.org. Sure, gmane is mostly dysfunctional now.  I never saw or
> any information on the second list....
>
>
> James
>
With the creation of the Mentors project
(https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Mentors) a bit of clarification
has occurred to help prospective developers outside the IRC and/or
proxy-maintainers project). The Recruiters project page contains links
to the current quizzes (linked therein).

hth.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Cross Post due to technical component - Thanks for all the fish

[Sam Jorna]

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On Tue, Dec 06, 2016 at 08:59:11PM -0500, james wrote:
> On 12/06/2016 07:29 PM, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
> > On Tue, Dec 06, 2016 at 01:13:12PM -0500, james wrote:
> >> A while back, we we were promised an email channel for gentoo-proxy
> >> folks that did not get on well with IRC. It never materialized,
> > The mail alias proxy-maint@gentoo.org (same alias as proxy-maintainers@)
> > has 22 people on it. It was created 2013/09/26.
> >
> > The list gentoo-proxy-maint@lists.gentoo.org was created 2016/05/29.
> > I don't see much usage of it, nobody has emailed since August.
> > https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-proxy-maint/
> >
> > The request for it was filed and tracked here:
> > https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=581370
> >
> > How exactly is that never materialized?
> >
> 
> 
> I subscribe on 6/23/2016::
> 
> From:: gentoo-proxy-maint+help@lists.gentoo.org
> 

This is the correct address and as it noted, you should get a 
confirmation/welcome email when you've successfully subscribed. Did you 
get this?

Keep in mind, also, that as Robin noted above, the list has been very 
quiet and will remain that way until people start using it.

> So I just now sent email to :
> proxy-maint+subscribe@gentoo.org

This is not the mailing list address, but the alias for the Proxy 
Maintainers project - you can't subscribe to this. That being said, I 
couldn't see this email in my client.

> NO answer on this attempt. ON this page::
> https://www.gentoo.org/get-involved/mailing-lists/all-lists.html

The gentoo-proxy-maint mailing list was indeed missing from that list 
and has just been added thanks to Robin.

> Oh yea, I emailed those quizes timely to one of the devs I was working 
> with, and got no answer. (sorry, not going to identify that dev). So I 
> prefer to answer the latest quizes; you guys can figure out who I 
> should send those to.

It's unfortunate that this happened.

As for whom to send your quizzes to, they would go to your mentor. If 
you don't have a mentor, try approaching a developer with whom you've 
been working and see if they will be able to. Alternatively, you can 
have a look at the new [0]Mentors project, or even send a mail to -dev 
asking for one.

I look forward to having another contributor among the ranks. :)

-- 
Sam Jorna (wraeth)
GnuPG Key: D6180C26

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Cross Post due to technical component - Thanks for all the fish

[Sam Jorna]

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On Wed, Dec 07, 2016 at 01:17:54PM +1100, Sam Jorna wrote:
> have a look at the new [0]Mentors project, or even send a mail to -dev 

I forgot the link, sorry:

[0] https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Mentors

-- 
Sam Jorna (wraeth)
GnuPG Key: D6180C26

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Cross Post due to technical component - Thanks for all the fish

[Mart Raudsepp]

Ühel kenal päeval, T, 06.12.2016 kell 20:59, kirjutas james:
> 
> So I just now sent email to :
> proxy-maint+subscribe@gentoo.org
> 
> 
> NO answer on this attempt. ON this page::
> https://www.gentoo.org/get-involved/mailing-lists/all-lists.html
> 
> All I see is: gentoo-proxy-maint
> 
> Am I subscribe?  Did I miss the exact syntax to get subscribed?
> 
> Perhaps proxy-maint@gentoo.org needs to be listed with the rest of
> the mailing lists?

proxy-maint@gentoo.org is a mail alias, not a mailing list, you can't
subscribe to that.
gentoo-proxy-maint@gentoo.org is the mailing list.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Cross Post due to technical component - Thanks for all the fish

[james]

On 12/06/2016 09:17 PM, Sam Jorna wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 06, 2016 at 08:59:11PM -0500, james wrote:
>> On 12/06/2016 07:29 PM, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
>>> On Tue, Dec 06, 2016 at 01:13:12PM -0500, james wrote:
>>>> A while back, we we were promised an email channel for gentoo-proxy
>>>> folks that did not get on well with IRC. It never materialized,
>>> The mail alias proxy-maint@gentoo.org (same alias as proxy-maintainers@)
>>> has 22 people on it. It was created 2013/09/26.
>>>
>>> The list gentoo-proxy-maint@lists.gentoo.org was created 2016/05/29.
>>> I don't see much usage of it, nobody has emailed since August.
>>> https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-proxy-maint/
>>>
>>> The request for it was filed and tracked here:
>>> https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=581370
>>>
>>> How exactly is that never materialized?
>>>
>>
>>
>> I subscribe on 6/23/2016::
>>
>> From:: gentoo-proxy-maint+help@lists.gentoo.org
>>
>
> This is the correct address and as it noted, you should get a
> confirmation/welcome email when you've successfully subscribed. Did you
> get this?

YES, back on 6/23/2016 It never functioned correctly for me.
I think everyone switched to the new list, which I never heard about.

<snip>
And here is the reply::

gentoo-proxy-maint+confsub-nomail-75dc5ad5188e6314-garftd=verizon.net@lists.gentoo.org

on 6/23/2016 10:21am
<end/snip>


So do I need to apply again, or an I on the list? I went (nomail) cause 
at the time reading via gmane.org was working. Perhaps I should just 
change the status to receive the mails?   I can test post, if that is 
helpful?


>
> Keep in mind, also, that as Robin noted above, the list has been very
> quiet and will remain that way until people start using it.
>
>> So I just now sent email to :
>> proxy-maint+subscribe@gentoo.org
>
> This is not the mailing list address, but the alias for the Proxy
> Maintainers project - you can't subscribe to this. That being said, I
> couldn't see this email in my client.
>
>> NO answer on this attempt. ON this page::
>> https://www.gentoo.org/get-involved/mailing-lists/all-lists.html
>
> The gentoo-proxy-maint mailing list was indeed missing from that list
> and has just been added thanks to Robin.
>
>> Oh yea, I emailed those quizes timely to one of the devs I was working
>> with, and got no answer. (sorry, not going to identify that dev). So I
>> prefer to answer the latest quizes; you guys can figure out who I
>> should send those to.
>
> It's unfortunate that this happened.
>
> As for whom to send your quizzes to, they would go to your mentor. If
> you don't have a mentor, try approaching a developer with whom you've
> been working and see if they will be able to. Alternatively, you can
> have a look at the new [0]Mentors project, or even send a mail to -dev
> asking for one.

I've had (5) mentor/sponsers. All quite friendly. Several wanted to just 
put me up for dev. I am flexible, but, I've been put through the ringer 
over a (2) year period.  That's why when I hear about a kid, whom 
gaining gentoo dev status would be most benefical, getting hood-winked 
and ran around, I tend to believe their stories; and that angers me.

>
> I look forward to having another contributor among the ranks. :)
>

Re: [gentoo-dev] Cross Post due to technical component - Thanks for all the fish

[james]

On 12/06/2016 09:09 PM, M. J. Everitt wrote:

>> James
>>
> With the creation of the Mentors project
> (https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Mentors) a bit of clarification
> has occurred to help prospective developers outside the IRC and/or
> proxy-maintainers project).

Am I to understand that the 'Mentors' are a pathway to gaining 
gentoo-dev status (still the same requirements) but I do not have to use
IRC to communicate with whomever?

If so; Halaluyah! and count me in. I hate irc, with a passion, just so 
you know.


> The Recruiters project page contains links
> to the current quizzes (linked therein).
>
> hth.



On this page, the string 'quiz' occurs (3) times. I find no links to the 
current quizes?

Did I miss something?

James

Re: [gentoo-dev] Cross Post due to technical component - Thanks for all the fish

[Matthias Maier]

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On Tue, Dec  6, 2016, at 20:37 CST, james <garftd@verizon.net> wrote:

> So do I need to apply again, or an I on the list? I went (nomail)
> cause at the time reading via gmane.org was working. Perhaps I should
> just change the status to receive the mails?   I can test post, if
> that is helpful?

No, the list is simply dead (was never used in any meaningful way
anyway).

You can read the whole 3 e-mails over the last 5 months here [1]

Best,
Matthias


[1] https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-proxy-maint/

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Cross Post due to technical component - Thanks for all the fish

[M. J. Everitt]

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On 07/12/16 02:44, james wrote:
>
> On this page, the string 'quiz' occurs (3) times. I find no links to
> the current quizes?
>
> Did I miss something?
>
> James
>
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Recruiters#Current_quizzes


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Cross Post due to technical component - Thanks for all the fish

[Sam Jorna]

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On Tue, Dec 06, 2016 at 09:44:12PM -0500, james wrote:
> On 12/06/2016 09:09 PM, M. J. Everitt wrote:
> 
> >> James
> >>
> > With the creation of the Mentors project
> > (https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Mentors) a bit of clarification
> > has occurred to help prospective developers outside the IRC and/or
> > proxy-maintainers project).
> 
> Am I to understand that the 'Mentors' are a pathway to gaining 
> gentoo-dev status (still the same requirements) but I do not have to use
> IRC to communicate with whomever?

In order to become a Gentoo developer you do need a mentor[0]. If 
instead you're only looking to proxy-maintain a package(s), you can work 
either through the Proxy Maintainers project or directly with a 
developer (if they're the maintainer).

> If so; Halaluyah! and count me in. I hate irc, with a passion, just so 
> you know.

How you communicate with your mentor is up to you and your mentor. Going 
through the recruitment [0]process does require a review session which, 
as far as I know, is only held on IRC, but otherwise it's up to you to 
organise what medium you use.

> > The Recruiters project page contains links
> > to the current quizzes (linked therein).
> >
> > hth.
> 
> 
> 
> On this page, the string 'quiz' occurs (3) times. I find no links to the 
> current quizes?
> 
> Did I miss something?

The links to the quizzes are [1]here.

[0] https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Recruiters#What_does_the_recruitment_process_involve.3F
[1] https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Recruiters#Current_quizzes

-- 
Sam Jorna (wraeth)
GnuPG Key: D6180C26

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Cross Post due to technical component - Thanks for all the fish

[james]

On 12/06/2016 09:20 PM, Sam Jorna wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 07, 2016 at 01:17:54PM +1100, Sam Jorna wrote:
>> have a look at the new [0]Mentors project, or even send a mail to -dev
>
> I forgot the link, sorry:
>
> [0] https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Mentors
>


On this page, the string 'quiz' occurs (3) times. I find no links to the 
current quizes?

Did I miss something?

Re: [gentoo-dev] Cross Post due to technical component - Thanks for all the fish

[Sam Jorna]

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On Tue, Dec 06, 2016 at 09:37:55PM -0500, james wrote:
> >> I subscribe on 6/23/2016::
> >>
> >> From:: gentoo-proxy-maint+help@lists.gentoo.org
> >>
> >
> > This is the correct address and as it noted, you should get a
> > confirmation/welcome email when you've successfully subscribed. Did you
> > get this?
> 
> YES, back on 6/23/2016 It never functioned correctly for me.
> I think everyone switched to the new list, which I never heard about.
> 
> <snip>
> And here is the reply::
> 
> gentoo-proxy-maint+confsub-nomail-75dc5ad5188e6314-garftd=verizon.net@lists.gentoo.org
> 
> on 6/23/2016 10:21am
> <end/snip>
> 
> 
> So do I need to apply again, or an I on the list? I went (nomail) cause 
> at the time reading via gmane.org was working. Perhaps I should just 
> change the status to receive the mails?   I can test post, if that is 
> helpful?

I can see you've posted something to the list just now.

If you need to reconfigure your settings so it mails you, send a mail to 
gentoo-proxy-maint+help@lists.gentoo.org to see [0]options.

[0] https://www.gentoo.org/get-involved/mailing-lists/instructions.html

-- 
Sam Jorna (wraeth)
GnuPG Key: D6180C26

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Cross Post due to technical component - Thanks for all the fish

[james]

On 12/06/2016 09:52 PM, Sam Jorna wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 06, 2016 at 09:44:12PM -0500, james wrote:
>> On 12/06/2016 09:09 PM, M. J. Everitt wrote:
>>
>>>> James
>>>>
>>> With the creation of the Mentors project
>>> (https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Mentors) a bit of clarification
>>> has occurred to help prospective developers outside the IRC and/or
>>> proxy-maintainers project).
>>
>> Am I to understand that the 'Mentors' are a pathway to gaining
>> gentoo-dev status (still the same requirements) but I do not have to use
>> IRC to communicate with whomever?
>
> In order to become a Gentoo developer you do need a mentor[0]. If
> instead you're only looking to proxy-maintain a package(s), you can work
> either through the Proxy Maintainers project or directly with a
> developer (if they're the maintainer).
>
>> If so; Halaluyah! and count me in. I hate irc, with a passion, just so
>> you know.
>
> How you communicate with your mentor is up to you and your mentor. Going
> through the recruitment [0]process does require a review session which,
> as far as I know, is only held on IRC, but otherwise it's up to you to
> organise what medium you use.
>
>>> The Recruiters project page contains links
>>> to the current quizzes (linked therein).
>>>
>>> hth.
>>
>>
>>
>> On this page, the string 'quiz' occurs (3) times. I find no links to the
>> current quizes?
>>
>> Did I miss something?
>
> The links to the quizzes are [1]here.
>
> [0] https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Recruiters#What_does_the_recruitment_process_involve.3F
> [1] https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Recruiters#Current_quizzes
>

Thanks guys. I'm going to finish up the new quizzes on my own.
Perhaps you guys should 'draw straws' so in a few weeks/months
we can rapidly complete the dev application process. Ive got over 2 
years on this off and on.

I promise to present at lest 10 ebuilds as a body of work (EAPI-6 OK?)? 
Yes I do prefer email over irc. If you force irc on me, then I think it 
would be nice to have a streamlined method so the instant I fire it up, 
it is secure and I do not have to haggle with interlopers via the channel.

I'm not a fan of 'gang rape' either, so hopefully irc channel comes
complete with manners and respect, regardless of who has what technical 
acumen over the others? Is that too much to ask? Really, for someone 
like me, it is just best to avoid irc.


James

Re: [gentoo-dev] Cross Post due to technical component - Thanks for all the fish

[Robin H. Johnson]

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On Tue, Dec 06, 2016 at 08:59:11PM -0500, james wrote:
> Hi, this is the Mlmmj program managing the
> <gentoo-proxy-maint@lists.gentoo.org> mailing list.
> 
> Somebody (and we hope it was you) has requested that your email address
> <garftd@verizon.net> be added to the list, without mail delivery. This
> means you will not receive any posts to the list, but you are considered 
> a member. This means, for instance, you are able to post to a list which 
> only subscribers may post to, while you follow the list using a web 
> archive or another subscribed email address.
> 
> To confirm you want to do this, please send a message to
> <gentoo-proxy-maint+confsub-nomail-75dc5ad5188e6314-garftd=verizon.net@lists.gentoo.org>
> which can usually be done simply by replying to this message. The subject
> and the body of the message can be anything.
You DID successfully subscribe to the _nomail_ version of the list on
2016/06/23.

The 'nomail' version of the list is exactly that, you are subscribed but do NOT
get mail sent back to you (the blurb as you posted it made that very clear).

# pigeon:/var/log/lists/gentoo-proxy-maint/mlmmj.operation.log:
Sun Jun 12 02:50:18 2016 mlmmj-sub: request for regular subscription from garftd@verizon.net
Thu Jun 23 13:13:28 2016 mlmmj-sub: request for nomail subscription from garftd@verizon.net
Thu Jun 23 13:21:45 2016 mlmmj-sub: garftd@verizon.net confirmed subscription to nomail

Did you perhaps mean to subscribe to the normal version of the mailing list
instead, so that you do get emails from the list?

You never confirmed the first request from June 12, so you weren't on regular version.

> So I just now sent email to :
> proxy-maint+subscribe@gentoo.org
As others pointed out, this is a mail alias, NOT a list. Membership is editable
by all gentoo developers; but you cannot simply subscribe like you tried (all
of them should have gotten your email).

If you want to be added, you need to contact a developer or file a bug for that
team.

-- 
Robin Hugh Johnson
Gentoo Linux: Dev, Infra Lead, Foundation Trustee & Treasurer
E-Mail   : robbat2@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP : 11ACBA4F 4778E3F6 E4EDF38E B27B944E 34884E85
GnuPG FP : 7D0B3CEB E9B85B1F 825BCECF EE05E6F6 A48F6136

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[gentoo-dev] Re: Cross Post due to technical component - Thanks for all the fish

[Duncan]

james posted on Tue, 06 Dec 2016 22:10:16 -0500 as excerpted:

> Really, for someone like me, it is just best to avoid irc.

FWIW, some 12 years ago now, in 2004, I started using gentoo, with the 
intent of contributing and potentially eventually becoming a dev.

Somewhere along the line but rather early in the process, I read that IRC 
was absolutely required at least for the final interview, and given that 
I too strongly prefer email (or for group communications better yet 
newsgroups, with gmane being that bridge for most mailing lists), I 
decided my contributions, such as they are, can be better made either 
elsewhere, or to gentoo, but without becoming a dev.

Put it this way.  There's a lot of FLOSS projects out there hurting for 
devs, and if some of them throw up entirely artificial barriers that some 
have problems with to the direct repo contribution level when there are 
so many other options that don't, fine, it's their prerogative, but they 
obviously aren't hurting for devs as much as they might claim, if they 
have the luxury of throwing up such artificial barriers to filter some 
potential contributors out.

Much later, likely after some recruiters project changes, someone from 
recruiters clarified that IRC on the final interview isn't actually 
/required/, there might be ways around it in individual cases.  
Apparently it does need to be real-time synchronous for some reason, but 
he suggested that a (VoIP?) phone call or the like could be arranged as 
an alternative.  In theory I could do that.

But by then, while I continued then and continue now to use gentoo as it 
really does seem the best and most flexible scripted build-it-yourself 
distro out there, my enthusiasm for becoming a dev had burned off due to 
finding it simply wasn't an option for so long, and given all the work 
involved, I decided I could simply remain as I was and as I have for now 
over a decade, a gentoo user and contributor on various lists, bugzilla, 
etc, as well as a generally non-coder contributor to a few selected 
upstreams.

Now it seems to be IRC hard-required again.  <shrug>

I do find it a bit ironic, tho, since literally generations of devs have 
come and gone since I started, always with the intent to contribute to 
the best of my ability, back in 2004.  From my perspective, that's a lot 
of additional contributions missed in the decade-plus since then.  
Furthermore, I see little reason I'll not still be gentooing in another 
decade, even three, by which time I'd be turning 80 (I'm turning 50 in 
January), if both gentoo and I are still around by then.  That's a 
lifetime of additional contributions from my perspective needlessly 
missed, but I guess they must not be so desperately needed after all, 
apparently because the quality of contributions from people that don't 
IRC are of significantly enough lower quality that it's simply not worth 
bothering to recruit those folks.  <shrug>

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

Re: [gentoo-dev] Cross Post due to technical component - Thanks for all the fish

[Kristian Fiskerstrand]

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On 12/07/2016 06:07 AM, Robin H. Johnson wrote:

>> So I just now sent email to :
>> proxy-maint+subscribe@gentoo.org

You likely want to check out [gentoo-proxy-maint@lists.gentoo.org]
instead of the project alias. The latter is restricted to Gentoo developers.

References:
[gentoo-proxy-maint@lists.gentoo.org]
https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-proxy-maint/

-- 
Kristian Fiskerstrand
OpenPGP keyblock reachable at hkp://pool.sks-keyservers.net
fpr:94CB AFDD 3034 5109 5618 35AA 0B7F 8B60 E3ED FAE3


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Cross Post due to technical component - Thanks for all the fish

[Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto]

On Wed, 7 Dec 2016, Duncan wrote:

> james posted on Tue, 06 Dec 2016 22:10:16 -0500 as excerpted:
>
>> Really, for someone like me, it is just best to avoid irc.
>
> FWIW, some 12 years ago now, in 2004, I started using gentoo, with the
> intent of contributing and potentially eventually becoming a dev.
>
> Somewhere along the line but rather early in the process, I read that IRC
> was absolutely required at least for the final interview, and given that
> I too strongly prefer email (or for group communications better yet
> newsgroups, with gmane being that bridge for most mailing lists), I
> decided my contributions, such as they are, can be better made either
> elsewhere, or to gentoo, but without becoming a dev.

<snip>

> Much later, likely after some recruiters project changes, someone from
> recruiters clarified that IRC on the final interview isn't actually
> /required/, there might be ways around it in individual cases.
> Apparently it does need to be real-time synchronous for some reason, but
> he suggested that a (VoIP?) phone call or the like could be arranged as
> an alternative.  In theory I could do that.

> Now it seems to be IRC hard-required again.  <shrug>

<snip>

I'm asking recuiters directly, but unless someone changed the rules and I 
was distracted, irc is not mandatory.
More important than an irc review session though, we have several 
developers that rarely, if ever, do irc, so it's certainly possible to be 
a Gentoo Developer and not maintain a regular irc presence.
To be clear, irc is a good a way to be part of the team and to quickly 
talk to others, so we should encourage its use. But encouraging something 
is not the same as making it mandatory.

About not really wanting contribution and making up "barriers", the 
"barriers" we've put are in our view required to make sure people have a 
real interest in being in this community and know enough to be able to 
maintain packages (for those applying for ::gentoo access).

Best regards,
Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto
Gentoo Developer


PS - Let's please move all this discussion to the project ml as this 
clearly doesn't belong in the gentoo-dev ml.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Cross Post due to technical component - Thanks for all the fish

[Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto]

On Wed, 7 Dec 2016, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:

<snip>

> I'm asking recuiters directly, but unless someone changed the rules and I was 
> distracted, irc is not mandatory.

I've got confirmation that nothing has changed, so irc is not mandatory.
I hope this clears any misunderstandings and puts an end to any 
speculation.

Best regards,
Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto
Gentoo Developer

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Cross Post due to technical component - Thanks for all the fish

[james]

On 12/07/2016 02:44 AM, Duncan wrote:
> james posted on Tue, 06 Dec 2016 22:10:16 -0500 as excerpted:
>
>> Really, for someone like me, it is just best to avoid irc.
>
> FWIW, some 12 years ago now, in 2004, I started using gentoo, with the
> intent of contributing and potentially eventually becoming a dev.
>
> Somewhere along the line but rather early in the process, I read that IRC
> was absolutely required at least for the final interview, and given that
> I too strongly prefer email (or for group communications better yet
> newsgroups, with gmane being that bridge for most mailing lists), I
> decided my contributions, such as they are, can be better made either
> elsewhere, or to gentoo, but without becoming a dev.
>
> Put it this way.  There's a lot of FLOSS projects out there hurting for
> devs, and if some of them throw up entirely artificial barriers that some
> have problems with to the direct repo contribution level when there are
> so many other options that don't, fine, it's their prerogative, but they
> obviously aren't hurting for devs as much as they might claim, if they
> have the luxury of throwing up such artificial barriers to filter some
> potential contributors out.
>
> Much later, likely after some recruiters project changes, someone from
> recruiters clarified that IRC on the final interview isn't actually
> /required/, there might be ways around it in individual cases.
> Apparently it does need to be real-time synchronous for some reason, but
> he suggested that a (VoIP?) phone call or the like could be arranged as
> an alternative.  In theory I could do that.
>
> But by then, while I continued then and continue now to use gentoo as it
> really does seem the best and most flexible scripted build-it-yourself
> distro out there, my enthusiasm for becoming a dev had burned off due to
> finding it simply wasn't an option for so long, and given all the work
> involved, I decided I could simply remain as I was and as I have for now
> over a decade, a gentoo user and contributor on various lists, bugzilla,
> etc, as well as a generally non-coder contributor to a few selected
> upstreams.
>
> Now it seems to be IRC hard-required again.  <shrug>
>
> I do find it a bit ironic, tho, since literally generations of devs have
> come and gone since I started, always with the intent to contribute to
> the best of my ability, back in 2004.  From my perspective, that's a lot
> of additional contributions missed in the decade-plus since then.
> Furthermore, I see little reason I'll not still be gentooing in another
> decade, even three, by which time I'd be turning 80 (I'm turning 50 in
> January), if both gentoo and I are still around by then.  That's a
> lifetime of additional contributions from my perspective needlessly
> missed, but I guess they must not be so desperately needed after all,
> apparently because the quality of contributions from people that don't
> IRC are of significantly enough lower quality that it's simply not worth
> bothering to recruit those folks.  <shrug>


I want to get  the quizes done to the current version, mostly to prove I 
have the knowledge and work on my ebuild and bring them up to EAPI 6
or possible EAPI-7 (is it reasonably formulated yet?). Maybe I could 
just ask Duncan to grade those quizes; I certainly trust his judgment.


I do not need to be a formalized as a gentoo dev. But with over a decade 
of gentoo experience, a bachelor in EE, a professional engineering 
registration and a Masters in CS (yes from an ABETT university), decades 
of coding,  and I've had significant issue with the process, you'd think 
that this effort to become qualified as a gentoo dev, is maybe a bit too 
socially subjective and more of a cruel social filter to folks that they 
(then existing gentoo devs) just do not want in the clubhouse. Thanks 
Duncan for stating my case too. (Actually more eloquently that I ever 
could).  If I've been rude or abusive, I apologize, but it's a very 
small fraction, at most,
compared to the angst folks experience, as they look, covetously at the 
gentoo tree. Are there any shareable apples ?


I also really  like  the Anna W. idea of using a GLEP to formalize 
methods to fork Gentoo, very straightforward and very easy. From an 'old 
fart's'  gentoo distro, folks could even work on core codes (think 
bootstrap, profiles, compilers and such) and test their ideas before 
submitting ideas/ebuild to gentoo_irc_proper. Someone might just 
experiment for a replacement/enhancement to Bugzilla or such? I know 
that 'fork' scenario will work for me.  In fact with a repo that is 
visible and usable via layman, folks could just try ebuilds or groups of 
ebuilds from a repo. Seems like we had this discussion, with another 
young coder on gentoo-dev less than a year ago?


However, when I start pushing a 'bare-metal' provisioning systems, not 
dissimilar to CoreOS's 'ignition' then a separate gentoo-hack-distro
would be very useful. My research (on bench-marking thousands of 
different clusters/codes) on identical hardware configurations, the 
installation has to be automated and unattended in the most robust of 
fashions. There is no other distro to perform this work on, from my 
tests and experiences. Like Duncan, I too am mostly discouraged from 
'walking the hot coals' to dev status.


Being able to use stage-4 or stage-5 (G. forums) installs to rapidly 
provision a collection of bare-metal systems [BGO-593218] into a wide 
variety of hardened clusters is my passion. Unikernels as stage 4 
packages can then very easily be targeted for very specific needs: VM or 
container or bare-metal.  Gentoo-proper is has too much political 
baggage to encourage folks to innovate, imho. So, I really hope the 
gentoo dev community gets behind the Anna Wilcox idea of streamlining 
Gentoo into the most fork-able distro on the planet. WE could all be one 
happy family and yet be very competitive with our ideas, trials and 
published results?  Surely a few eggheads (academcis/pedantics) see the 
wisdom of competing micro_distros? Not unlike competing micro_breweries, 
it make the entire craft much stronger and better for all.


Then there can be peace and harmony as everybody can do exactly as they 
please with their little cluster of gentoo and their very own 
portage-tree. And then folks running gentoo-proper now can pick and 
choose which innovations they want to include in the master tree. Isn't 
that pretty much what Google and CoreOS do now, as well as the gentoo 
derivative OS? Why not accelerate what has worked, for the few, to 
emancipate those of us still chained into user-land servitude.


hth,
James

Re: [gentoo-dev] Cross Post due to technical component - Thanks for all the fish

[james]

On 12/07/2016 04:22 AM, Kristian Fiskerstrand wrote:
> On 12/07/2016 06:07 AM, Robin H. Johnson wrote:
>
>>> So I just now sent email to :
>>> proxy-maint+subscribe@gentoo.org
>
> You likely want to check out [gentoo-proxy-maint@lists.gentoo.org]
> instead of the project alias. The latter is restricted to Gentoo developers.
>
> References:
> [gentoo-proxy-maint@lists.gentoo.org]
> https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-proxy-maint/
>

Thanks Robin. All good to know. Maybe these details and the other
aforementioned details can be clarified and documented in the wiki,
for the benefit of all to know.

hth,
James

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Cross Post due to technical component - Thanks for all the fish

[Christopher Head]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2406 bytes --]

On Wed, 7 Dec 2016 12:15:06 -0500
james <garftd@verizon.net> wrote:

> Being able to use stage-4 or stage-5 (G. forums) installs to rapidly 
> provision a collection of bare-metal systems [BGO-593218] into a wide 
> variety of hardened clusters is my passion. Unikernels as stage 4 
> packages can then very easily be targeted for very specific needs: VM
> or container or bare-metal.  Gentoo-proper is has too much political 
> baggage to encourage folks to innovate, imho. So, I really hope the 
> gentoo dev community gets behind the Anna Wilcox idea of streamlining 
> Gentoo into the most fork-able distro on the planet. WE could all be
> one happy family and yet be very competitive with our ideas, trials
> and published results?  Surely a few eggheads (academcis/pedantics)
> see the wisdom of competing micro_distros? Not unlike competing
> micro_breweries, it make the entire craft much stronger and better
> for all.
> 
> 
> Then there can be peace and harmony as everybody can do exactly as
> they please with their little cluster of gentoo and their very own 
> portage-tree. And then folks running gentoo-proper now can pick and 
> choose which innovations they want to include in the master tree.
> Isn't that pretty much what Google and CoreOS do now, as well as the
> gentoo derivative OS? Why not accelerate what has worked, for the
> few, to emancipate those of us still chained into user-land servitude.

As an ordinary user, this sounds pretty bad. Forking is great for
developers, but bad for users. I don’t *want* 27 different
Gentoo-derived fork distributions, each of which is great at one thing.
I don’t want to have to reinstall a different OS just because I switch
from writing embedded code to running Octave. Honestly, I don’t even
want to go out and find other OS’s repos, add them as overlays, and
hope the inter-OS dependencies work.

As an ordinary user, what I *want*, is to install one OS and not think
about it again. Ideally, Gentoo. When I want to do embedded
development, I just emerge dev-embedded/thingy. When I want to do some
math, I just emerge sci-mathematics/octave. Most things that most
people care about in the main tree. Breaking things up into overlays or
different OSs or whatever just means adding more hoops that I have to
jump through before I can start working on a new topic.
-- 
Christopher Head

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Cross Post due to technical component - Thanks for all the fish

[A. Wilcox]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

On 09/12/16 23:46, Christopher Head wrote:
> On Wed, 7 Dec 2016 12:15:06 -0500 james <garftd@verizon.net>
> wrote:
> 
>> Gentoo-proper is has too much political baggage to encourage
>> folks to innovate, imho. So, I really hope the gentoo dev
>> community gets behind the Anna Wilcox idea of streamlining Gentoo
>> into the most fork-able distro on the planet. WE could all be one
>> happy family and yet be very competitive with our ideas, trials 
>> and published results?  Surely a few eggheads
>> (academcis/pedantics) see the wisdom of competing micro_distros? 
>> Then there can be peace and harmony as everybody can do exactly
>> as they please with their little cluster of gentoo and their very
>> own portage-tree. And then folks running gentoo-proper now can
>> pick and choose which innovations they want to include in the
>> master tree.
> 
> As an ordinary user, this sounds pretty bad. Forking is great for 
> developers, but bad for users. I don’t *want* 27 different 
> Gentoo-derived fork distributions, each of which is great at one
> thing. I don’t want to have to reinstall a different OS just
> because I switch from writing embedded code to running Octave.
> Honestly, I don’t even want to go out and find other OS’s repos,
> add them as overlays, and hope the inter-OS dependencies work.


I think James has perhaps spoken ambiguously, or at least I hope that
you have misunderstood his proposal.  (If you haven't, then he's
misunderstood mine.)

The point of making it easier to fork is not only for the benefit of
developers.  As James says:

> And then folks running gentoo-proper now can pick and choose which 
> innovations they want to include in the master tree.

The idea being the people who "run" Gentoo, that being the developers
of Gentoo, can pick what they want from the forks and derivatives, and
include those improvements in the master tree.  Then all Gentoo users,
and all derivatives of Gentoo, can benefit from those improvements.

Consider the relationship between Fedora and CentOS/RHEL.  Fedora is
released rapidly, compared to RHEL.  It is where innovation and
development happen for them.  Then RHEL picks the best bits from them
and ships it in their product.  You don't have to run Fedora to be
able to use the work they produce.  (Though sometimes you have to wait
a while!)

So for one example, at Adélie we are focusing hard on the musl libc.
At some point in the future, when we have things looking good, we can
contribute that back to the official Gentoo musl overlay.  Ideally,
that would be the main Gentoo package tree... but at least the overlay.

We have also packaged some great open fonts that we've found.  We can
easily send our ebuilds to Gentoo's media team and they could put it
right in to the tree.  (Right now, I'm still working out the best ways
to use the fonts eclass... hence there is no upstreaming yet.)

Forks and derivatives allow a much wider community the ability to
experiment with the powerful Gentoo system without fear of "breaking"
the "real" Gentoo tree.  Things like my APK BINPKG_FORMAT patch may
never make it upstream, which is fine.  However, overall the goal is
to enrich the broader Gentoo userbase.

After all, isn't that the idea behind open source in the first place?
 You have the freedom to take the code, do what you want with it, and
then contribute your changes back when you're sure they're good.
Forking Gentoo allows people to try out more wide-sweeping or drastic
changes without any danger.

The future can be cool and groovy if we have the freedom to tinker :)

- --arw


- -- 
A. Wilcox (awilfox)
Project Lead, Adélie Linux
http://adelielinux.org
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Cross Post due to technical component - Thanks for all the fish

[Daniel Campbell]

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On 12/07/2016 07:36 AM, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:
> On Wed, 7 Dec 2016, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:
> 
> <snip>
> 
>> I'm asking recuiters directly, but unless someone changed the rules
>> and I was distracted, irc is not mandatory.
> 
> I've got confirmation that nothing has changed, so irc is not mandatory.
> I hope this clears any misunderstandings and puts an end to any
> speculation.
> 
> Best regards,
> Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto
> Gentoo Developer
> 
Would you mind telling us who told you that? I don't disagree or
anything, but if others have further questions, we should route them to
the person you spoke with.

-- 
Daniel Campbell - Gentoo Developer
OpenPGP Key: 0x1EA055D6 @ hkp://keys.gnupg.net
fpr: AE03 9064 AE00 053C 270C  1DE4 6F7A 9091 1EA0 55D6


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Cross Post due to technical component - Thanks for all the fish

[Daniel Campbell]

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On 12/09/2016 09:46 PM, Christopher Head wrote:
> On Wed, 7 Dec 2016 12:15:06 -0500
> james <garftd@verizon.net> wrote:
> 
>> Being able to use stage-4 or stage-5 (G. forums) installs to rapidly 
>> provision a collection of bare-metal systems [BGO-593218] into a wide 
>> variety of hardened clusters is my passion. Unikernels as stage 4 
>> packages can then very easily be targeted for very specific needs: VM
>> or container or bare-metal.  Gentoo-proper is has too much political 
>> baggage to encourage folks to innovate, imho. So, I really hope the 
>> gentoo dev community gets behind the Anna Wilcox idea of streamlining 
>> Gentoo into the most fork-able distro on the planet. WE could all be
>> one happy family and yet be very competitive with our ideas, trials
>> and published results?  Surely a few eggheads (academcis/pedantics)
>> see the wisdom of competing micro_distros? Not unlike competing
>> micro_breweries, it make the entire craft much stronger and better
>> for all.
>>
>>
>> Then there can be peace and harmony as everybody can do exactly as
>> they please with their little cluster of gentoo and their very own 
>> portage-tree. And then folks running gentoo-proper now can pick and 
>> choose which innovations they want to include in the master tree.
>> Isn't that pretty much what Google and CoreOS do now, as well as the
>> gentoo derivative OS? Why not accelerate what has worked, for the
>> few, to emancipate those of us still chained into user-land servitude.
> 
> As an ordinary user, this sounds pretty bad. Forking is great for
> developers, but bad for users. I don’t *want* 27 different
> Gentoo-derived fork distributions, each of which is great at one thing.
> I don’t want to have to reinstall a different OS just because I switch
> from writing embedded code to running Octave. Honestly, I don’t even
> want to go out and find other OS’s repos, add them as overlays, and
> hope the inter-OS dependencies work.
> 
> As an ordinary user, what I *want*, is to install one OS and not think
> about it again. Ideally, Gentoo. When I want to do embedded
> development, I just emerge dev-embedded/thingy. When I want to do some
> math, I just emerge sci-mathematics/octave. Most things that most
> people care about in the main tree. Breaking things up into overlays or
> different OSs or whatever just means adding more hoops that I have to
> jump through before I can start working on a new topic.
> 

Unfortunately even with a rich technical foundation (like Gentoo's)
can't ensure that happens. Forks are patches around social problems or
(sometimes, but rarely) technical disagreements. As much as some would
insist that libre software is purely technical, there's an important and
prevalent social component that influences the technical side. At some
point or another, people can't work together and as a result the ebuilds
scatter. Adding overlays via layman is dead-simple, and iirc you can use
bugzie to file bugs against any official layman overlay. There *are*
ways to deal with overlays in a mostly centralized manner. The layman
list and bugzilla support goes a long way to making that possible, and
the guys behind it did a great job.

One Size Fits All is a dream. It sounds great on paper, but when it
comes time to Just Do It™, you get all the messiness that comes with
wetware and the disagreements on software.

I see where you're coming from and yes, it'd be nice if we could all
just use Gentoo. But reality (read: volunteering) doesn't work that way.

If you have any issues with overlays, please, use the ML or #gentoo so
somebody can help you out.
-- 
Daniel Campbell - Gentoo Developer
OpenPGP Key: 0x1EA055D6 @ hkp://keys.gnupg.net
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Cross Post due to technical component - Thanks for all the fish

[Markos Chandras]

On 12/11/2016 08:05 AM, Daniel Campbell wrote:
> On 12/07/2016 07:36 AM, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:
>> On Wed, 7 Dec 2016, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> I'm asking recuiters directly, but unless someone changed the rules
>>> and I was distracted, irc is not mandatory.
>>
>> I've got confirmation that nothing has changed, so irc is not mandatory.
>> I hope this clears any misunderstandings and puts an end to any
>> speculation.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto
>> Gentoo Developer
>>
> Would you mind telling us who told you that? I don't disagree or
> anything, but if others have further questions, we should route them to
> the person you spoke with.
> 

I did. No, do not redirect them to me. If the wiki does not clarify
that, then fix the wiki.

But seriously, are we arguing here about connecting to IRC for a few
hours in your entire dev-hood? Is this really *that* hard? Or is it just
another excuse to complain about the whole process?

Anyway, nobody (to my knowledge) ever got rejected because he/she did
not have IRC access so please stop speculating and throwing flamebaits
here and there. We have more than enough already.

-- 
Regards,
Markos Chandras

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Cross Post due to technical component - Thanks for all the fish

[Daniel Campbell]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1594 bytes --]

On 12/11/2016 02:00 AM, Markos Chandras wrote:
> On 12/11/2016 08:05 AM, Daniel Campbell wrote:
>> On 12/07/2016 07:36 AM, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:
>>> On Wed, 7 Dec 2016, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>> I'm asking recuiters directly, but unless someone changed the rules
>>>> and I was distracted, irc is not mandatory.
>>>
>>> I've got confirmation that nothing has changed, so irc is not mandatory.
>>> I hope this clears any misunderstandings and puts an end to any
>>> speculation.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto
>>> Gentoo Developer
>>>
>> Would you mind telling us who told you that? I don't disagree or
>> anything, but if others have further questions, we should route them to
>> the person you spoke with.
>>
> 
> I did. No, do not redirect them to me. If the wiki does not clarify
> that, then fix the wiki.
> 
> But seriously, are we arguing here about connecting to IRC for a few
> hours in your entire dev-hood? Is this really *that* hard? Or is it just
> another excuse to complain about the whole process?
> 
> Anyway, nobody (to my knowledge) ever got rejected because he/she did
> not have IRC access so please stop speculating and throwing flamebaits
> here and there. We have more than enough already.
> 
I think maybe you're mixing me up with someone else. That said, editing
the wiki sounds good since it'll save developer time.

-- 
Daniel Campbell - Gentoo Developer
OpenPGP Key: 0x1EA055D6 @ hkp://keys.gnupg.net
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Cross Post due to technical component - Thanks for all the fish

[Markos Chandras]

On 12/11/2016 10:49 AM, Daniel Campbell wrote:
> On 12/11/2016 02:00 AM, Markos Chandras wrote:
>> On 12/11/2016 08:05 AM, Daniel Campbell wrote:
>>> On 12/07/2016 07:36 AM, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 7 Dec 2016, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:
>>>>
>>>> <snip>
>>>>
>>>>> I'm asking recuiters directly, but unless someone changed the rules
>>>>> and I was distracted, irc is not mandatory.
>>>>
>>>> I've got confirmation that nothing has changed, so irc is not mandatory.
>>>> I hope this clears any misunderstandings and puts an end to any
>>>> speculation.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>> Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto
>>>> Gentoo Developer
>>>>
>>> Would you mind telling us who told you that? I don't disagree or
>>> anything, but if others have further questions, we should route them to
>>> the person you spoke with.
>>>
>>
>> I did. No, do not redirect them to me. If the wiki does not clarify
>> that, then fix the wiki.
>>
>> But seriously, are we arguing here about connecting to IRC for a few
>> hours in your entire dev-hood? Is this really *that* hard? Or is it just
>> another excuse to complain about the whole process?
>>
>> Anyway, nobody (to my knowledge) ever got rejected because he/she did
>> not have IRC access so please stop speculating and throwing flamebaits
>> here and there. We have more than enough already.
>>
> I think maybe you're mixing me up with someone else. That said, editing
> the wiki sounds good since it'll save developer time.
> 

It was merely a "call for some fact checking" to the original reporter
who claimed that IRC is mandatory or whatever.

-- 
Regards,
Markos Chandras

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Cross Post due to technical component - Thanks for all the fish

[Michael Orlitzky]

On 12/10/2016 01:12 AM, A. Wilcox wrote:
> 
> So for one example, at Adélie we are focusing hard on the musl libc.
> At some point in the future, when we have things looking good, we can
> contribute that back to the official Gentoo musl overlay.  Ideally,
> that would be the main Gentoo package tree... but at least the overlay.
> 
> We have also packaged some great open fonts that we've found.  We can
> easily send our ebuilds to Gentoo's media team and they could put it
> right in to the tree.  (Right now, I'm still working out the best ways
> to use the fonts eclass... hence there is no upstreaming yet.)

The quizzes are probably a little heavy on Gentoo politics if that isn't
your main concern, but working primarily on another distribution doesn't
preclude one from becoming a Gentoo developer =)

[gentoo-dev] Re: Cross Post due to technical component - Thanks for all the fish

[Duncan]

Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto posted on Wed, 07 Dec 2016 15:36:20 +0000 as
excerpted:

> On Wed, 7 Dec 2016, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote:
> 
> <snip>
> 
>> I'm asking recuiters directly, but unless someone changed the rules and
>> I was distracted, irc is not mandatory.
> 
> I've got confirmation that nothing has changed, so irc is not mandatory.
> I hope this clears any misunderstandings and puts an end to any
> speculation.

Thank you. =:^)

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Cross Post due to technical component - Thanks for all the fish

[Christopher Head]

On December 9, 2016 10:12:54 PM PST, "A. Wilcox" <awilfox@adelielinux.org> wrote:
>I think James has perhaps spoken ambiguously, or at least I hope that
>you have misunderstood his proposal.  (If you haven't, then he's
>misunderstood mine.)
>
>The point of making it easier to fork is not only for the benefit of
>developers.  As James says:
>
>> And then folks running gentoo-proper now can pick and choose which 
>> innovations they want to include in the master tree.
>
>The idea being the people who "run" Gentoo, that being the developers
>of Gentoo, can pick what they want from the forks and derivatives, and
>include those improvements in the master tree.  Then all Gentoo users,
>and all derivatives of Gentoo, can benefit from those improvements.

You’re right, I took the word “run” in the sense of “execute” (the OS), not in the sense of “manage” (the organization). If forks are a way to develop work destined for upstream, they’re great. It’s when they become a tool for fragmenting the community (of both users and developers) without any hope of work being recombined that they become a problem.

-- 
Christopher Head

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Cross Post due to technical component - Thanks for all the fish

[Daniel Campbell]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1956 bytes --]

On 12/13/2016 10:47 AM, Christopher Head wrote:
> On December 9, 2016 10:12:54 PM PST, "A. Wilcox" <awilfox@adelielinux.org> wrote:
>> I think James has perhaps spoken ambiguously, or at least I hope that
>> you have misunderstood his proposal.  (If you haven't, then he's
>> misunderstood mine.)
>>
>> The point of making it easier to fork is not only for the benefit of
>> developers.  As James says:
>>
>>> And then folks running gentoo-proper now can pick and choose which 
>>> innovations they want to include in the master tree.
>>
>> The idea being the people who "run" Gentoo, that being the developers
>> of Gentoo, can pick what they want from the forks and derivatives, and
>> include those improvements in the master tree.  Then all Gentoo users,
>> and all derivatives of Gentoo, can benefit from those improvements.
> 
> You’re right, I took the word “run” in the sense of “execute” (the OS), not in the sense of “manage” (the organization). If forks are a way to develop work destined for upstream, they’re great. It’s when they become a tool for fragmenting the community (of both users and developers) without any hope of work being recombined that they become a problem.
> 

Sometimes people don't get along or play politics to fight within an
organization. At that point, one is forced to route around the social
damage and branch off. It's at the "host"'s discretion whether they want
to pull from the fork, and I don't think pressuring or forcing either of
those groups to work together would be a good idea.

I'm applying this in a general sense, to clarify.

It's true that it can create a maintenance burden and sometimes even
confusion, but what else can you do about volunteers that can't agree on
a way forward for a given project?
-- 
Daniel Campbell - Gentoo Developer
OpenPGP Key: 0x1EA055D6 @ hkp://keys.gnupg.net
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Cross Post due to technical component - Thanks for all the fish

[Ian, Delaney <della5]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On Tue, 06 Dec 2016 23:39:00 +0000
Gokturk Yuksek <gokturk@gentoo.org> wrote:

> Hi,
> 
   
Lo

> 
> The mailing list for proxy-maint was created 5 months ago [0], can be
> reached by emailing gentoo-proxy-maint@lists.gentoo.org after
> subscribing, and the archive is located at [1].

Factual undisputed statement of factual undisputable fact. What else
to expect form a gokturk.

> 
> Regarding your comment on working with individual developers, I have
> not seen anything related to that in the project alias.

In the project alias. So ******* what. The project alias is now dev
only I think I would no longer know, however, that might be a
misunderstanding on the part of the user who told me the devs made the
alias list devs only. Either way, he missed that clanger of an email
from gokturk regarding the pending return of the most 'awkward' and
menacing devs in the history of g-p-m, in late November; its former
lead who in respect of good tsate shall remain nameless. 

OOOOh yes, the project to this day has a lead developer "no-lead", the
most recent of the string of farce and embarrassment in the history of
that most tainted of gentoo projects, gentoo-proxy-maint.  It is I
would also say a fine project that deserved and deserves FAR better
than the string of dishonour that now taints it.

Regarding working with individual developers. you can talk ????!!!! Was
it not you who made a targeted barrage of both bugs to QA to the
'legitimate' forum, 'per protocol' putting members of g-p-m at the
time under unwanted un-needed and most importantly undeserved  pressure
and scrutiny of commits from that 'dreadful and dishonourable' source
gentoo-proxy-maint, COMBINED with forwarding logs from PRIVATE message
source complete with breach of trust of use of PRIVATE message to the
honourable hard working radical right wing group comrel (comedy relief)
charged with upholding all that is right, desirable and clinically
impersonally piously 'perfectly' professional of the community, The
community that gave cause to one xayto to forward an email to the ML
sub entitled "Thanks for all the fish".

Also, to fill the missing key point about that email, that 'clanger'.
This fine sterile developer took it upon himself to both negatively
critique the behaviour and morals of that former lead whoever he was in
times past, then submitted a motion to extend the ban placed upon the
lead who shall remain nameless, by another 6 months, on the premiss of,
well there wasn't one really, other than that of prejudice and the
mentality of a lynch mob.

And guess who seconded the motion ... Anyone ???

> I would be more than happy 

oh what a gay chappy, in the original and traditional use of the
word, of course. One does NOT wish to offend anyone of any warped 
orientation here.

> to personally help you out with proxy-maintainership.
> 
> Thanks,
> 

keep it.

> --
> gokturk
> 
> [0] https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=581370
> [1] https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-proxy-maint/
> 
> 

P.S. ya'll might care to respond but if you do it will not be me
reading the retorts rebuttals and more butts. I came across this by
chance and boredom

- -- 
most kind regards

Ian Delaney
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Cross Post due to technical component - Thanks for all the fish

[Kristian Fiskerstrand]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 431 bytes --]

> On 12/21/2016 11:23 PM, Ian@gentoo.org wrote:
Why is this email sent using an invalid email addresse in FROM?

As for the rest of the email content itself, please consider the
appropriate forum for any discussion, and I strongly recommend staying
away from personal attacks.

-- 
Kristian Fiskerstrand
OpenPGP keyblock reachable at hkp://pool.sks-keyservers.net
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