[gentoo-dev] [RFC] Should we switch IRC client defaults off Freenode?

[gentoo-dev] [RFC] Should we switch IRC client defaults off Freenode?

[Michał Górny]

Hi, everyone.

We've moved our official support channels from Freenode to Libera.chat.
All that's happened afterwards pretty much proves that this was
the right decision.  Maybe even to the point of saying that staying
on Freenode would be dangerous to our users (e.g. because of the late
NickServ impersonations, ops with bad reputation etc.).

However, there are still IRC clients in Gentoo that default to Freenode.
I think the next questions we need to answer are:

1. Should we be proactively changing the default network in IRC clients
(provided they have one) from Freenode to Libera.chat?

1a. If yes, then should we also make a change if clients default to
network other than Freenode?

2. Should we be proactively *removing* Freenode from the network list
in IRC clients (provided they have one)?

2a. Should we be adding Libera.chat to the list even if we do not remove
Freenode?


I think the answers depend on how strongly we feel about Freenode. 
Answering 'yes' to 1., 1a. and 2. generally makes sense if we assume
that we should make it easier for our users to reach official Gentoo
support channels.

If we assume that Freenode is explicitly dangerous to our users, it
might make sense to do 2. as well.  However, I'm not really sure about
this.


Quick recap for people that haven't been following the news or got
confused in the lots of data:

1. Freenode was sold in 2017 to some guy who apparently wasn't supposed
to interfere with its operations.

2. In 2021, the guy actively started to interfere, then formed a one-man
Board and demanded full compliance.

3. Most of the old Freenode staff (including people we've worked with)
left and formed Libera.chat.

4. Many projects (including Gentoo) started moving their channels to
Libera.chat.

5. New Freenode staff (including some disreputable types) went angry
about this and started automated reclamation of channels that indicated
move to another network (including some channels that didn't because
they failed at grep).

6. Services started falling apart, random trolls started impersonating
NickServ.  While they were kicked shortly, they still could have grabbed
some passwords from identifying users.

7. Eventually, the new Freenode staff announced yesterday that they are
rebooting Freenode and therefore losing all past registrations.

That's the most important events in my opinion.  I'm sure some people
have more to add.  My main point today is that it's a series of
unprofessional moves that in the end open a lot of impersonation
opportunities.

Just imagine unknowing Gentoo users having their systems compromised
through advice from trolls pretending to be Gentoo developers.

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Should we switch IRC client defaults off Freenode?

[Ulrich Mueller]

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>>>>> On Wed, 16 Jun 2021, Michał Górny wrote:

> We've moved our official support channels from Freenode to Libera.chat.
> All that's happened afterwards pretty much proves that this was
> the right decision.  Maybe even to the point of saying that staying
> on Freenode would be dangerous to our users (e.g. because of the late
> NickServ impersonations, ops with bad reputation etc.).

> However, there are still IRC clients in Gentoo that default to Freenode.
> I think the next questions we need to answer are:

> 1. Should we be proactively changing the default network in IRC clients
> (provided they have one) from Freenode to Libera.chat?

Yes. IMHO Freenode is no longer a reasonable default.

> 1a. If yes, then should we also make a change if clients default to
> network other than Freenode?

No.

> 2. Should we be proactively *removing* Freenode from the network list
> in IRC clients (provided they have one)?

No (but also don't re-add it if upstream decided to remove it).

> 2a. Should we be adding Libera.chat to the list even if we do not remove
> Freenode?

Yes. We have our channels there, so it is reasonable to have the network
in the list.

Ulrich

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Should we switch IRC client defaults off Freenode?

[Chris Pritchard]

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I’d be inclined to agree with this take, seems sensible, although I’d also think the removal of freenode could be very reasonable given their actions have at best demonstrated extremely poor judgement to the detriment of users, or at worst maliciousness.

The other thing could be a freenode use flag that would mean freenode isn’t included unless the user includes it in their use flag? Might be a bit too much work for marginal gains though

Chris

________________________________
From: Ulrich Mueller <ulm@gentoo.org>
Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2021 10:21 am
To: Michał Górny
Cc: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org
Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Should we switch IRC client defaults off Freenode?

>>>>> On Wed, 16 Jun 2021, Michał Górny wrote:

> We've moved our official support channels from Freenode to Libera.chat.
> All that's happened afterwards pretty much proves that this was
> the right decision.  Maybe even to the point of saying that staying
> on Freenode would be dangerous to our users (e.g. because of the late
> NickServ impersonations, ops with bad reputation etc.).

> However, there are still IRC clients in Gentoo that default to Freenode.
> I think the next questions we need to answer are:

> 1. Should we be proactively changing the default network in IRC clients
> (provided they have one) from Freenode to Libera.chat?

Yes. IMHO Freenode is no longer a reasonable default.

> 1a. If yes, then should we also make a change if clients default to
> network other than Freenode?

No.

> 2. Should we be proactively *removing* Freenode from the network list
> in IRC clients (provided they have one)?

No (but also don't re-add it if upstream decided to remove it).

> 2a. Should we be adding Libera.chat to the list even if we do not remove
> Freenode?

Yes. We have our channels there, so it is reasonable to have the network
in the list.

Ulrich

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Should we switch IRC client defaults off Freenode?

[Joonas Niilola]

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On 16.6.2021 12.13, Michał Górny wrote:
> Hi, everyone.
> 
> We've moved our official support channels from Freenode to Libera.chat.
> All that's happened afterwards pretty much proves that this was
> the right decision.  Maybe even to the point of saying that staying
> on Freenode would be dangerous to our users (e.g. because of the late
> NickServ impersonations, ops with bad reputation etc.).
> 
> However, there are still IRC clients in Gentoo that default to Freenode.
> I think the next questions we need to answer are:

Examples? Is the list huge?
https://packages.gentoo.org/categories/net-irc

> 
> 1. Should we be proactively changing the default network in IRC clients
> (provided they have one) from Freenode to Libera.chat?

Yes.

> 
> 1a. If yes, then should we also make a change if clients default to
> network other than Freenode?

IMO yes.

> 
> 2. Should we be proactively *removing* Freenode from the network list
> in IRC clients (provided they have one)?

Classic or Future Freenode? ;)
(yes, there is no Freenode anymore)

> 
> 2a. Should we be adding Libera.chat to the list even if we do not remove
> Freenode?

Yes.

Ideally all these would be taken care by upstream. Which might provoke
some version updates to dear old IRC clients...

Anyhow I can also imagine leaving these up to package maintainers, and
this mail to work as an encouragement.

-- juippis


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Should we switch IRC client defaults off Freenode?

[Michał Górny]

On Wed, 2021-06-16 at 12:43 +0300, Joonas Niilola wrote:
> On 16.6.2021 12.13, Michał Górny wrote:
> > Hi, everyone.
> > 
> > We've moved our official support channels from Freenode to Libera.chat.
> > All that's happened afterwards pretty much proves that this was
> > the right decision.  Maybe even to the point of saying that staying
> > on Freenode would be dangerous to our users (e.g. because of the late
> > NickServ impersonations, ops with bad reputation etc.).
> > 
> > However, there are still IRC clients in Gentoo that default to Freenode.
> > I think the next questions we need to answer are:
> 
> Examples? Is the list huge?
> https://packages.gentoo.org/categories/net-irc
> 

I've just seen hexchat being updated, didn't investigate further.

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Should we switch IRC client defaults off Freenode?

[Andrew Ammerlaan]

On 16/06/2021 11:45, Michał Górny wrote:
> On Wed, 2021-06-16 at 12:43 +0300, Joonas Niilola wrote:
>> On 16.6.2021 12.13, Michał Górny wrote:
>>> Hi, everyone.
>>>
>>> We've moved our official support channels from Freenode to Libera.chat.
>>> All that's happened afterwards pretty much proves that this was
>>> the right decision.  Maybe even to the point of saying that staying
>>> on Freenode would be dangerous to our users (e.g. because of the late
>>> NickServ impersonations, ops with bad reputation etc.).
>>>
>>> However, there are still IRC clients in Gentoo that default to Freenode.
>>> I think the next questions we need to answer are:
>>
>> Examples? Is the list huge?
>> https://packages.gentoo.org/categories/net-irc
>>
> 
> I've just seen hexchat being updated, didn't investigate further.
> 

Thunderbird has IRC functionality. When adding a new IRC account the 
server address field still defaults to chat.freenode.net, it should be a 
simple matter of sed s/chat.freenode.net/irc.libera.chat/g, or 
s/chat.freenode.net/irc.gentoo.org/g, and I imagine it would be just as 
simple for most IRC clients.

IMO it makes most sense to just switch the default to irc.gentoo.org if 
we are going to change defaults anyway.

I think that eventually most IRC clients will probably move away from 
freenode anyway. However, given the mess over at freenode and that it is 
a relatively simple change, I think it makes sense to start this effort 
proactively at a distro level asap.

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Should we switch IRC client defaults off Freenode?

[Michał Górny]

On Wed, 2021-06-16 at 12:06 +0200, Andrew Ammerlaan wrote:
> IMO it makes most sense to just switch the default to irc.gentoo.org if 
> we are going to change defaults anyway.

We can't really do that as ircs://irc.gentoo.org causes certificate
hostname mismatch.

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Should we switch IRC client defaults off Freenode?

[Marek Szuba]

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On 2021-06-16 11:22, Michał Górny wrote:

>> IMO it makes most sense to just switch the default to irc.gentoo.org if
>> we are going to change defaults anyway.
> 
> We can't really do that as ircs://irc.gentoo.org causes certificate
> hostname mismatch.

On a somewhat tangential note, could we add a TLSA RR for this service? 
I mean, it is rather likely that most IRC clients out there do not 
support DANE yet - but at least it would help those who do.

-- 
Marecki


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Should we switch IRC client defaults off Freenode?

[Michal Prívozník]

On 6/16/21 11:21 AM, Ulrich Mueller wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 16 Jun 2021, Michał Górny wrote:
> 
>> We've moved our official support channels from Freenode to Libera.chat.
>> All that's happened afterwards pretty much proves that this was
>> the right decision.  Maybe even to the point of saying that staying
>> on Freenode would be dangerous to our users (e.g. because of the late
>> NickServ impersonations, ops with bad reputation etc.).
> 
>> However, there are still IRC clients in Gentoo that default to Freenode.
>> I think the next questions we need to answer are:
> 
>> 1. Should we be proactively changing the default network in IRC clients
>> (provided they have one) from Freenode to Libera.chat
> 
> Yes. IMHO Freenode is no longer a reasonable default.

Why should we mangle with packages this way? I mean, to me Gentoo was
one of the few distros that allowed real choice for users (systemd vs
openrc, selinux or !selinux, etc.). We shouldn't be making choices on
behalf of users. The best we can do is to open issues for whatever IRC
client we have in portage to switch from freenode to something different.

BTW: not everybody is switching from freenode to libera.chat.

Michal

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Should we switch IRC client defaults off Freenode?

[Rich Freeman]

On Wed, Jun 16, 2021 at 7:28 AM Michal Prívozník <mprivozn@redhat.com> wrote:
>
> On 6/16/21 11:21 AM, Ulrich Mueller wrote:
> >>>>>> On Wed, 16 Jun 2021, Michał Górny wrote:
> >
> >> We've moved our official support channels from Freenode to Libera.chat.
> >> All that's happened afterwards pretty much proves that this was
> >> the right decision.  Maybe even to the point of saying that staying
> >> on Freenode would be dangerous to our users (e.g. because of the late
> >> NickServ impersonations, ops with bad reputation etc.).
> >
> >> However, there are still IRC clients in Gentoo that default to Freenode.
> >> I think the next questions we need to answer are:
> >
> >> 1. Should we be proactively changing the default network in IRC clients
> >> (provided they have one) from Freenode to Libera.chat
> >
> > Yes. IMHO Freenode is no longer a reasonable default.
>
> Why should we mangle with packages this way? I mean, to me Gentoo was
> one of the few distros that allowed real choice for users (systemd vs
> openrc, selinux or !selinux, etc.). We shouldn't be making choices on
> behalf of users. The best we can do is to open issues for whatever IRC
> client we have in portage to switch from freenode to something different.

++

This makes about as much sense as changing the default homepage on
browsers or the default address book on email clients.  All of these
things are used to interact with Gentoo.

At this point I think it should be pretty obvious to anybody
connecting to Freenode that something has changed.  If our concern is
users getting bad advice there, perhaps we ought to have more devs
participate on the gentoo-user mailing list where we seem to hand out
plenty of bad advice daily?  :)

I think that some point we need to just call this done.  I was a
proponent of switching networks, but at this point it seems like every
FOSS org I'm in has some kind of daily Freenode drama going on.  Just
about everybody has switched - just call it a win already...

I'm sure there will be people on Freenode 10 years from now, probably
in many of these same channels.

FWIW many IRC clients are already taking these steps.  Connecting to
Freenode on my phone IRC client is a bit like connecting to my UniFI
controller at home using a browser...

--
Rich

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Should we switch IRC client defaults off Freenode?

[Hanno Böck]

Hi,

On Wed, 16 Jun 2021 11:13:19 +0200
Michał Górny <mgorny@gentoo.org> wrote:

> However, there are still IRC clients in Gentoo that default to
> Freenode. I think the next questions we need to answer are:

My recommendation would be to prioritize asking upstreams to change
defaults.

We can still patch defaults for upstreams unresponsive. But I would
assume in most cases upstreams will agree that freenode is not a
reasonable default given recent events, and changing those has a larger
beneficial effect moving people off freenode. Ultimately this is not a
gentoo issue, but an issue affecting the whole foss community.

-- 
Hanno Böck
https://hboeck.de/

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Should we switch IRC client defaults off Freenode?

[Thomas Deutschmann]

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On 2021-06-16 13:28, Michal Prívozník wrote:
> Why should we mangle with packages this way? I mean, to me Gentoo was
> one of the few distros that allowed real choice for users (systemd vs
> openrc, selinux or !selinux, etc.). We shouldn't be making choices on
> behalf of users. The best we can do is to open issues for whatever IRC
> client we have in portage to switch from freenode to something different.
> 
> BTW: not everybody is switching from freenode to libera.chat.

I second that.

Adding *our* network is one thing, like adding branding, but removing 
stuff we don't like is going to far.


-- 
Regards,
Thomas Deutschmann / Gentoo Linux Developer
fpr: C4DD 695F A713 8F24 2AA1 5638 5849 7EE5 1D5D 74A5


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Should we switch IRC client defaults off Freenode?

[Ulrich Mueller]

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>>>>> On Wed, 16 Jun 2021, Michal Prívozník wrote:

>>> 1. Should we be proactively changing the default network in IRC clients
>>> (provided they have one) from Freenode to Libera.chat
>> 
>> Yes. IMHO Freenode is no longer a reasonable default.

> Why should we mangle with packages this way? I mean, to me Gentoo was
> one of the few distros that allowed real choice for users (systemd vs
> openrc, selinux or !selinux, etc.). We shouldn't be making choices on
> behalf of users. The best we can do is to open issues for whatever IRC
> client we have in portage to switch from freenode to something
> different.

This is merely about the _default_ network, not about taking away any
choices from users.

See my answer to question 2 (which you've conveniently omitted,
therefore restoring it here):

>>> 2. Should we be proactively *removing* Freenode from the network list
>>> in IRC clients (provided they have one)?
>> 
>> No (but also don't re-add it if upstream decided to remove it).

> BTW: not everybody is switching from freenode to libera.chat.

A default is never about everybody, but about providing a good
configuration for the majority of users.

Ulrich

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Should we switch IRC client defaults off Freenode?

[Ulrich Mueller]

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>>>>> On Wed, 16 Jun 2021, Thomas Deutschmann wrote:

> On 2021-06-16 13:28, Michal Prívozník wrote:
>> Why should we mangle with packages this way? I mean, to me Gentoo was
>> one of the few distros that allowed real choice for users (systemd vs
>> openrc, selinux or !selinux, etc.). We shouldn't be making choices on
>> behalf of users. The best we can do is to open issues for whatever IRC
>> client we have in portage to switch from freenode to something different.
>> BTW: not everybody is switching from freenode to libera.chat.

> I second that.

> Adding *our* network is one thing, like adding branding, but removing
> stuff we don't like is going to far.

*sigh* Please read my answer again. I haven't suggested that Freenode
should be removed, but my answer was misrepresented in the message
you're replying to.

Ulrich

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Should we switch IRC client defaults off Freenode?

[Thomas Deutschmann]

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On 2021-06-16 11:13, Michał Górny wrote:
> 1. Should we be proactively changing the default network in IRC clients
> (provided they have one) from Freenode to Libera.chat?
> 
> 1a. If yes, then should we also make a change if clients default to
> network other than Freenode?

Adding *our* network in case Libera.chat is missing, is one thing. Like 
adding branding for Gentoo.

But imagine the project behind the IRC client is located on EFnet and 
therefore they are defaulting their client to EFnet, we shouldn't mess 
with that because of the Freenode drama. There should be a separate 
discussion if we should add Gentoo branding by default to *every* 
package where possible in which case we can think about it.


> 2. Should we be proactively *removing* Freenode from the network list
> in IRC clients (provided they have one)?

No. Don't become part of a cancel culture where you disagree with 
someone and start to fight your enemy. We moved and are done with 
freenode. Gentoo is about choices. Our users should therefore be able to 
decide on their own. No need to make it harder to connect to a network 
we moved away from. And keep in mind: *Not* everyone has moved away from 
freenode, that's also part of the truth. And we shouldn't judge projects 
still located on freenode.


> 2a. Should we be adding Libera.chat to the list even if we do not remove
> Freenode?

See 1.


> Quick recap for people that haven't been following the news or got
> confused in the lots of data:
> 
> 1. Freenode was sold in 2017 to some guy who apparently wasn't supposed
> to interfere with its operations.
> 
> 2. In 2021, the guy actively started to interfere, then formed a one-man
> Board and demanded full compliance.

The problem with a summary like that is, that you only present one view. 
I.e. the view of the "winner" (history is written by the victors). But 
part of the drama is that freenode owner said he was forced to take 
actions for legal reasons (new owner is held liable for whatever his 
staff is doing) after former staff refused to cooperate.


> 5. New Freenode staff (including some disreputable types) went angry
> about this and started automated reclamation of channels that indicated
> move to another network (including some channels that didn't because
> they failed at grep).

You could also have a different view on that: We (like many others) 
started to violate their TOS. It does not matter whether or not they 
created these TOS retrospectively: It's a proprietary/privately owned 
service. They can do whatever they like whenever they like. And they 
just did that. No question, an unpleasant move from our POV. But I know 
that many people don't like to hear or believe for some reasons that 
this could never happen to other services -- but this can happen at any 
time to our presence at Github and even what happened with freenode 
could happen with Libera.chat again. Both are proprietary and in the end 
privately owned. They can change rules without asking us and without 
even considering our interests.


> Just imagine unknowing Gentoo users having their systems compromised
> through advice from trolls pretending to be Gentoo developers.

True. But this can happen wherever people talk about Gentoo. Even in our 
forums, mailing lists or official IRC channels. I would recommend 
everyone to relax a little bit. There will always be some imperfect 
situations like that we cannot control. We shouldn't start to overreact. 
Like we say, "Gentoo is about choice", have some faith in our users to 
deal with that.

Gentoo is done with freenode, we migrated away. There is no need for us 
take additional actions against freenode.


-- 
Regards,
Thomas Deutschmann / Gentoo Linux Developer
fpr: C4DD 695F A713 8F24 2AA1 5638 5849 7EE5 1D5D 74A5


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Should we switch IRC client defaults off Freenode?

[Sam James]

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> On 16 Jun 2021, at 10:13, Michał Górny <mgorny@gentoo.org> wrote:
> 
> [snip]

The only case not covered by your questions is where an IRC client
might autojoin #gentoo@libera (Smuxi does this with #smuxi) in which
case we want to update it.

> 1. Should we be proactively changing the default network in IRC clients
> (provided they have one) from Freenode to Libera.chat?
> 

No, I think this is a bit too opinionated. The exception would be if upstream
made made this change but it's not yet in a release.

What we may want to do is add a one-off elog about Gentoo's support
services being on Libera and/or a link to our page about this:
https://www.gentoo.org/get-involved/irc-channels/

> 1a. If yes, then should we also make a change if clients default to
> network other than Freenode?

N/A.

> 
> 2. Should we be proactively *removing* Freenode from the network list
> in IRC clients (provided they have one)?

No, this is too opinionated and some channels are staying there (even if
they'll move later).

> 
> 2a. Should we be adding Libera.chat to the list even if we do not remove
> Freenode?

Yes, as it's a new and very prominent network and most IRC clients don't seem to have had
a new release since its birth.

thanks,
sam


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Should we switch IRC client defaults off Freenode?

[Sam James]

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> On 16 Jun 2021, at 16:12, Sam James <sam@gentoo.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On 16 Jun 2021, at 10:13, Michał Górny <mgorny@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> 
>> [snip]
> 
> The only case not covered by your questions is where an IRC client
> might autojoin #gentoo@libera (Smuxi does this with #smuxi) in which
> case we want to update it.
> 
>> 1. Should we be proactively changing the default network in IRC clients
>> (provided they have one) from Freenode to Libera.chat?
>> 
> 
> No, I think this is a bit too opinionated. The exception would be if upstream
> made made this change but it's not yet in a release.

On reflection, I think I'd be okay with this if other people wanted it. All
channel + nick registrations are gone and it's not likely that the official
channel for $project is there anymore.

> 
> What we may want to do is add a one-off elog about Gentoo's support
> services being on Libera and/or a link to our page about this:
> https://www.gentoo.org/get-involved/irc-channels/
> 
>> 1a. If yes, then should we also make a change if clients default to
>> network other than Freenode?
> 
> N/A.
> 
>> 
>> 2. Should we be proactively *removing* Freenode from the network list
>> in IRC clients (provided they have one)?
> 
> No, this is too opinionated and some channels are staying there (even if
> they'll move later).
> 
>> 
>> 2a. Should we be adding Libera.chat to the list even if we do not remove
>> Freenode?
> 
> Yes, as it's a new and very prominent network and most IRC clients don't seem to have had
> a new release since its birth.
> 
> thanks,
> sam
> 


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Should we switch IRC client defaults off Freenode?

[Michał Górny]

On Wed, 2021-06-16 at 17:03 +0200, Thomas Deutschmann wrote:
> > Quick recap for people that haven't been following the news or got
> > confused in the lots of data:
> > 
> > 1. Freenode was sold in 2017 to some guy who apparently wasn't supposed
> > to interfere with its operations.
> > 
> > 2. In 2021, the guy actively started to interfere, then formed a one-man
> > Board and demanded full compliance.
> 
> The problem with a summary like that is, that you only present one view. 
> I.e. the view of the "winner" (history is written by the victors). But 
> part of the drama is that freenode owner said he was forced to take 
> actions for legal reasons (new owner is held liable for whatever his 
> staff is doing) after former staff refused to cooperate.

Freenode apologists are free to present their own point of view,
and even believe in it.  I am arguing for my point of view.

> > 5. New Freenode staff (including some disreputable types) went angry
> > about this and started automated reclamation of channels that indicated
> > move to another network (including some channels that didn't because
> > they failed at grep).
> 
> You could also have a different view on that: We (like many others) 
> started to violate their TOS. It does not matter whether or not they 
> created these TOS retrospectively: It's a proprietary/privately owned 
> service. They can do whatever they like whenever they like. [...]

What is the point you're making?  If GF decides to kick you from Gentoo,
will you also claim that it was their legal right?

> > Just imagine unknowing Gentoo users having their systems compromised
> > through advice from trolls pretending to be Gentoo developers.
> 
> True. But this can happen wherever people talk about Gentoo. Even in our 
> forums, mailing lists or official IRC channels. I would recommend 
> everyone to relax a little bit. There will always be some imperfect 
> situations like that we cannot control. We shouldn't start to overreact. 
> Like we say, "Gentoo is about choice", have some faith in our users to 
> deal with that.

No, it is not the same.  Freenode was our primary support channel for
many years.  I am pretty sure that there are still Gentoo users who are
unaware of the whole situation, and who might join Freenode seeking
help.

There is a major difference between potential support channels that were
never official, and support channels that were discontinued.

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Should we switch IRC client defaults off Freenode?

[Rich Freeman]

On Wed, Jun 16, 2021 at 11:42 AM Michał Górny <mgorny@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> What is the point you're making?  If GF decides to kick you from Gentoo,
> will you also claim that it was their legal right?
>

IMO the lesson to be learned here is that we ought to design Gentoo in
such a way that if the GF kicks us all from Gentoo, it isn't a big
deal at all.  The reason everybody is all upset is that the Freenode
change WAS a big deal and has been difficult to work through.
Obviously it wasn't THAT big of a problem, but ideally we should be
more resilient and just take things like this in stride.

People get deplatformed all the time these days, often from multiple
platforms at the same time.  Anybody sane doing anything online should
just expect it to happen to them at some point.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Should we switch IRC client defaults off Freenode?

[Michał Górny]

On Wed, 2021-06-16 at 11:57 -0400, Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 16, 2021 at 11:42 AM Michał Górny <mgorny@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > 
> > What is the point you're making?  If GF decides to kick you from Gentoo,
> > will you also claim that it was their legal right?
> > 
> 
> IMO the lesson to be learned here is that we ought to design Gentoo in
> such a way that if the GF kicks us all from Gentoo, it isn't a big
> deal at all.  The reason everybody is all upset is that the Freenode
> change WAS a big deal and has been difficult to work through.
> Obviously it wasn't THAT big of a problem, but ideally we should be
> more resilient and just take things like this in stride.
> 
> People get deplatformed all the time these days, often from multiple
> platforms at the same time.  Anybody sane doing anything online should
> just expect it to happen to them at some point.
> 

Just because something is happening 'all the time these days', it
doesn't mean we have to justify it.  if you start justifying bad things
like this, how are things supposed to get better?

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny