[gentoo-dev] Gentoo Hangouts

[gentoo-dev] Gentoo Hangouts

[Pavlos Ratis]

Hello all,

Everyday we talk to each other about different kind of things related
to Gentoo. IRC and MLs are the primary way of our communication, but
this is only a text-based communication. I think sometimes it would be
better to escape from that.

That's why I'd like to propose Gentoo Hangouts. Gentoo Hangouts will
be Google+  video Hangouts(video calls) held by teams or developers
independent of a team. The main goal is to have the teams introduce
themselves and discuss about different issues in their Gentoo-related
projects.

It's a very interactive way of communication and it helps team bonding. The
first Hangout of a team would be good to include a short introduction of the
team (what,who,where). Also team members will introduce themselves.
Then team should start talking about how a user can contribute and
what is going on in the team. Tips and tricks would be a plus and very
useful to users. Finally, users will be able to ask
questions at G+ and then team members will try to answer the most of
these questions.

Future team meetings could be also held via video hangouts or interviews like
dabbot's doing in his personal blog. In addition, developers
independent of the team could organize a hangout along with other
developers to discuss different topics or to have a
Gentoo-related chit-chat. Users could also participate into this video calls.

It's very easy to decide the host of the talk. Maybe the team leads
would be proper
for that or someone from the PR. One of the major issues is the
difference in timezone and the workload of each developer. However, I
think it would be great to find 1 hour to
participate. Teams could use a site like http://doodle.com to organize
the Hangout and find an hour that fit to their schedule.

Except from a camera and a microphone requirement is a Google account and
www-client/google-talkplugin package which is already in the tree.

It would be great to have teams introduce themselves and inform users in a
more interactive way how to contribute and answer their questions. Finally as
I said different other topics could be covered in this calls.

All these video calls will be archived to a public Gentoo account in Youtube.

I am looking forward to your feedback, your comments and of course for the
first team that will create a video Hangout!! :)

That's all folks, thanks for your time.

Pavlos

Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Hangouts

[Diego Elio Pettenò]

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Please, let's not try to make this something either mandated or recommended.

I have a personal dislike for video tutorials which tend to take half an
hour to explain something you'd read in ten minutes. Besides, not all of
the developers speak English well enough — heck some people have trouble
writing and understanding written English, let alone spoken.

Honestly, I couldn't get over reading a couple of paragraph here, because
the premise itself is too much to bear for me, sorry.


Diego Elio Pettenò — Flameeyes
flameeyes@flameeyes.eu — http://blog.flameeyes.eu/


On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 10:30 PM, Pavlos Ratis <dastergon@gentoo.org> wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> Everyday we talk to each other about different kind of things related
> to Gentoo. IRC and MLs are the primary way of our communication, but
> this is only a text-based communication. I think sometimes it would be
> better to escape from that.
>
> That's why I'd like to propose Gentoo Hangouts. Gentoo Hangouts will
> be Google+  video Hangouts(video calls) held by teams or developers
> independent of a team. The main goal is to have the teams introduce
> themselves and discuss about different issues in their Gentoo-related
> projects.
>
> It's a very interactive way of communication and it helps team bonding. The
> first Hangout of a team would be good to include a short introduction of
> the
> team (what,who,where). Also team members will introduce themselves.
> Then team should start talking about how a user can contribute and
> what is going on in the team. Tips and tricks would be a plus and very
> useful to users. Finally, users will be able to ask
> questions at G+ and then team members will try to answer the most of
> these questions.
>
> Future team meetings could be also held via video hangouts or interviews
> like
> dabbot's doing in his personal blog. In addition, developers
> independent of the team could organize a hangout along with other
> developers to discuss different topics or to have a
> Gentoo-related chit-chat. Users could also participate into this video
> calls.
>
> It's very easy to decide the host of the talk. Maybe the team leads
> would be proper
> for that or someone from the PR. One of the major issues is the
> difference in timezone and the workload of each developer. However, I
> think it would be great to find 1 hour to
> participate. Teams could use a site like http://doodle.com to organize
> the Hangout and find an hour that fit to their schedule.
>
> Except from a camera and a microphone requirement is a Google account and
> www-client/google-talkplugin package which is already in the tree.
>
> It would be great to have teams introduce themselves and inform users in a
> more interactive way how to contribute and answer their questions. Finally
> as
> I said different other topics could be covered in this calls.
>
> All these video calls will be archived to a public Gentoo account in
> Youtube.
>
> I am looking forward to your feedback, your comments and of course for the
> first team that will create a video Hangout!! :)
>
> That's all folks, thanks for your time.
>
> Pavlos
>
>

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Hangouts

[Mike Gilbert]

On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 5:30 PM, Pavlos Ratis <dastergon@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Except from a camera and a microphone requirement is a Google account and
> www-client/google-talkplugin package which is already in the tree.
>

Or a modern smartphone with the relevant app. Personally, I have
neither a camera nor mic attached to my personal workstation at home,
and I'm certainly not going to do a video conference from my desk at
work.

> It would be great to have teams introduce themselves and inform users in a
> more interactive way how to contribute and answer their questions. Finally as
> I said different other topics could be covered in this calls.
>

If someone wants to organize something, I might try it out just for a
laugh. I don't really see it being too useful for getting actual work
done, however.

For me, IRC works if I need to have an interactive discussion;
otherwise, email is sufficient.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Hangouts

[Pavlos Ratis]

On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 1:04 AM, Diego Elio Pettenò
<flameeyes@flameeyes.eu> wrote:
> Please, let's not try to make this something either mandated or recommended.
>

It is absolutely optional and it's just a proposal. However, I think
it's worth a try.

Pavlos

Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Hangouts

[Peter Stuge]

Pavlos Ratis wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 1:04 AM, Diego Elio Pettenò <flameeyes@flameeyes.eu> wrote:
> > Please, let's not try to make this something either mandated or recommended.
> 
> It is absolutely optional and it's just a proposal.
> However, I think it's worth a try.

I think it would be a wonderfully valuable addition to Gentoo!

But at the same time it's of course absolutely unsuitable for some
persons, and that may be fine. (Maybe it actually isn't, but that's
another matter completely.)


//Peter

Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Hangouts

[Norman Rieß]

Am 24.06.2013 00:15, schrieb Mike Gilbert:
> On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 5:30 PM, Pavlos Ratis <dastergon@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> It would be great to have teams introduce themselves and inform users in a
>> more interactive way how to contribute and answer their questions. Finally as
>> I said different other topics could be covered in this calls.
>>
> 
> If someone wants to organize something, I might try it out just for a
> laugh. I don't really see it being too useful for getting actual work
> done, however.
> 
> For me, IRC works if I need to have an interactive discussion;
> otherwise, email is sufficient.
> 

I do not see the benefit either, it seems like that kind of thing the PR
department would come up with, which noone does actually like doing and
everyone is glad when it's over and can go back to work.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Hangouts

[Alexander Berntsen]

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I realise that by "Gentoo is and will remain Free Software"[0], what
is meant is the distribution and the source code. However, I think it
would be a bad example to use proprietary software for development or
communication.


[0]  <http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/contract.xml>
- -- 
Alexander
alexander@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Hangouts

[Diego Elio Pettenò]

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On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 5:52 AM, Norman Rieß <norman@smash-net.org> wrote:

> I do not see the benefit either, it seems like that kind of thing the PR
> department would come up with, which noone does actually like doing and
> everyone is glad when it's over and can go back to work.
>

I honestly wonder if Pavlos ever tried having regular meetings over VC.

I've worked on a VC system most of last year and I now go through regular
conferences... it's barely okay from a work point of view, it takes lots of
time to organize so you don't want to do that every single day for sure.

And unlike IRC meetings, you can cannot multitask, say making your dinner
while discussing this or that feature.

A VC is a full commitment, and its attractiveness is often much higher
_before_ you use it..

Diego Elio Pettenò — Flameeyes
flameeyes@flameeyes.eu — http://blog.flameeyes.eu/

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Hangouts

[Alex Legler]

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On 24.06.2013 08:31, Alexander Berntsen wrote:
> I realise that by "Gentoo is and will remain Free Software"[0], what
> is meant is the distribution and the source code. However, I think it
> would be a bad example to use proprietary software for development or
> communication.

So we shouldn't be present on Google+ at all?

> 
> 
> [0]  <http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/contract.xml>
> 

-- 
Alex Legler <a3li@gentoo.org>
Gentoo Security/Ruby/Infrastructure


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Hangouts

[Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn]

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Alex Legler schrieb:
> On 24.06.2013 08:31, Alexander Berntsen wrote:
>> I realise that by "Gentoo is and will remain Free Software"[0], what 
>> is meant is the distribution and the source code. However, I think it 
>> would be a bad example to use proprietary software for development or 
>> communication.
> 
> So we shouldn't be present on Google+ at all?

Last I checked, you can use Google+ with a web browser. For hangouts, you
need to install the proprietary google-talkplugin (I don't think a usable
free replacement exists yet).

Best regards,
Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Hangouts

[Alex Legler]

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On 24.06.2013 12:01, Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn wrote:
> Alex Legler schrieb:
>> On 24.06.2013 08:31, Alexander Berntsen wrote:
>>> I realise that by "Gentoo is and will remain Free Software"[0], what 
>>> is meant is the distribution and the source code. However, I think it 
>>> would be a bad example to use proprietary software for development or 
>>> communication.
> 
>> So we shouldn't be present on Google+ at all?
> 
> Last I checked,

…and I check every day!

> you can use Google+ with a web browser. For hangouts, you
> need to install the proprietary google-talkplugin (I don't think a usable
> free replacement exists yet).

Sure, but the (web-accessible) platform itself is proprietary as well.

I don't see it as much of an issue to use this channel—as long as it
isn't the only one we offer.

> 
> Best regards,
> Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn
> 
> 

-- 
Alex Legler <a3li@gentoo.org>
Gentoo Security/Ruby/Infrastructure


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Hangouts

[Pavlos Ratis]

On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 11:14 AM, Diego Elio Pettenò
<flameeyes@flameeyes.eu> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 5:52 AM, Norman Rieß <norman@smash-net.org> wrote:
>>
>> I do not see the benefit either, it seems like that kind of thing the PR
>> department would come up with, which noone does actually like doing and
>> everyone is glad when it's over and can go back to work.
>
>
> I honestly wonder if Pavlos ever tried having regular meetings over VC.
>
> I've worked on a VC system most of last year and I now go through regular
> conferences... it's barely okay from a work point of view, it takes lots of
> time to organize so you don't want to do that every single day for sure.
>
> And unlike IRC meetings, you can cannot multitask, say making your dinner
> while discussing this or that feature.
>
> A VC is a full commitment, and its attractiveness is often much higher
> _before_ you use it..
>
>
> Diego Elio Pettenò — Flameeyes
> flameeyes@flameeyes.eu — http://blog.flameeyes.eu/

Maybe you misunderstood my proposal, I totally agree with you about
IRC meetings. I didn't propose video calls as a full replacement for
IRC meetings. Also, I've never said to use video calls every single
day.
These team video calls would be good to exist for different reasons.
These video calls are going to promote Gentoo, our team efforts and
could be useful to our users and those who want to contribute. As I
said before, it is optional, a team maybe choose not to do any video
call, a team could do *only one* video call and stop or a team could
do frequent video calls. It's up to the team to decide.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Hangouts

[Diego Elio Pettenò]

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Pavlos, I understand what you mean, I'm just saying that organizing a real
video conference takes its toil. And just opening a webcam and talking is
just going to give an amateurish feeling that could be more detrimental
than not.

Can you please tell us if you have _any_ experience at all with VCing or
just thought that it looks cool?

Diego Elio Pettenò — Flameeyes
flameeyes@flameeyes.eu — http://blog.flameeyes.eu/


On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 11:24 AM, Pavlos Ratis <dastergon@gentoo.org> wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 11:14 AM, Diego Elio Pettenò
> <flameeyes@flameeyes.eu> wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 5:52 AM, Norman Rieß <norman@smash-net.org>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> I do not see the benefit either, it seems like that kind of thing the PR
> >> department would come up with, which noone does actually like doing and
> >> everyone is glad when it's over and can go back to work.
> >
> >
> > I honestly wonder if Pavlos ever tried having regular meetings over VC.
> >
> > I've worked on a VC system most of last year and I now go through regular
> > conferences... it's barely okay from a work point of view, it takes lots
> of
> > time to organize so you don't want to do that every single day for sure.
> >
> > And unlike IRC meetings, you can cannot multitask, say making your dinner
> > while discussing this or that feature.
> >
> > A VC is a full commitment, and its attractiveness is often much higher
> > _before_ you use it..
> >
> >
> > Diego Elio Pettenò — Flameeyes
> > flameeyes@flameeyes.eu — http://blog.flameeyes.eu/
>
> Maybe you misunderstood my proposal, I totally agree with you about
> IRC meetings. I didn't propose video calls as a full replacement for
> IRC meetings. Also, I've never said to use video calls every single
> day.
> These team video calls would be good to exist for different reasons.
> These video calls are going to promote Gentoo, our team efforts and
> could be useful to our users and those who want to contribute. As I
> said before, it is optional, a team maybe choose not to do any video
> call, a team could do *only one* video call and stop or a team could
> do frequent video calls. It's up to the team to decide.
>
>

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[gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo Hangouts

[Michael Palimaka]

On 24/06/2013 07:30, Pavlos Ratis wrote:
> That's why I'd like to propose Gentoo Hangouts. Gentoo Hangouts will
> be Google+  video Hangouts(video calls) held by teams or developers
> independent of a team. The main goal is to have the teams introduce
> themselves and discuss about different issues in their Gentoo-related
> projects.

Thanks for taking the time and initiative to work on something new, I am 
sure it will prove interesting.

It is the response that confuses me - I don't understand why everyone is 
rushing to shut it down before it even begins. For those that are not 
interested in the idea of a video hangout, just don't use it and move on 
- simple.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo Hangouts

[Markos Chandras]

On 24 June 2013 11:54, Michael Palimaka <kensington@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On 24/06/2013 07:30, Pavlos Ratis wrote:
>>
>> That's why I'd like to propose Gentoo Hangouts. Gentoo Hangouts will
>> be Google+  video Hangouts(video calls) held by teams or developers
>> independent of a team. The main goal is to have the teams introduce
>> themselves and discuss about different issues in their Gentoo-related
>> projects.
>
>
> Thanks for taking the time and initiative to work on something new, I am
> sure it will prove interesting.
>
> It is the response that confuses me - I don't understand why everyone is
> rushing to shut it down before it even begins. For those that are not
> interested in the idea of a video hangout, just don't use it and move on -
> simple.
>
>

I like the idea. It might help bring developers and users closer.

--
Regards,
Markos Chandras - Gentoo Linux Developer
http://dev.gentoo.org/~hwoarang

Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Hangouts

[Rich Freeman]

On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 4:14 AM, Diego Elio Pettenò
<flameeyes@flameeyes.eu> wrote:
> And unlike IRC meetings, you can cannot multitask, say making your dinner
> while discussing this or that feature.

Honestly, that bit is a two-edged sword.  I was just musing with the
Trustees yesterday how it seems the meetings take forever to really
just hit a few items.  I think much is due to distraction (and I'm
probably as guilty as anyone).  That said, it is also helpful that I
can still attend family functions or whatever and connect via mobile
to a meeting - I'd definitely need to excuse myself if we were using
audio/video.

In my experience well-done videoconf works well for meetings, though I
haven't tried Google Hangouts for anything serious so I can't vouch
for that - low latency would be the most important attribute so that
people aren't stepping all over each other.  It does require focus to
come across professionally.  Since not coming across professionally in
my workplace is just an invitation to get fired that isn't really a
problem.  Now, language CAN be a problem in audio or videoconf -
generally in my workplace people speak English reasonably well, but
I've seen that become a challenge in anything other than written or
non-1:1 conversation.

I think our main meeting challenge boils down to timezones and being
international.  I can't say I'd want to have an international
videoconf at work because inevitably it would mean having to dress up
and be in a room that looked nice at 6AM or 10PM.  For gentoo that
matters slightly less, but only to a degree.  The bigger issue is that
meetings end up being inconvenient for many just due to their timing -
maybe one person lucks out and has it at the start/end of the day, but
for me they end up being middle-of-the-afternoon which has a tendency
to kill the day if on a weekend, and if on a weekday could conflict
with work.

However, I think it is still a good idea.  Perhaps they shouldn't be
used as a regular way to meet, but on occasion to try to re-capture
the personal element.  I for one have never met another Gentoo
developer in the flesh - and only a few users.  It would be nice to
actually talk with one...  :)

Rich

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo Hangouts

[Mike Pagano]

On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 12:04:04PM +0100, Markos Chandras wrote:
> On 24 June 2013 11:54, Michael Palimaka <kensington@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > On 24/06/2013 07:30, Pavlos Ratis wrote:
> >>
> >> That's why I'd like to propose Gentoo Hangouts. Gentoo Hangouts will
> >> be Google+  video Hangouts(video calls) held by teams or developers
> >> independent of a team. The main goal is to have the teams introduce
> >> themselves and discuss about different issues in their Gentoo-related
> >> projects.
> >
> >
> > Thanks for taking the time and initiative to work on something new, I am
> > sure it will prove interesting.
> >
> > It is the response that confuses me - I don't understand why everyone is
> > rushing to shut it down before it even begins. For those that are not
> > interested in the idea of a video hangout, just don't use it and move on -
> > simple.
> >
> >
> 
> I like the idea. It might help bring developers and users closer.
> 
> --

I can't see the harm, and people who don't have the time, interest or
social skills can certainly not join.  

I worked from a home office for 7 years and used this all the time.
Sometimes it helps to realize that the people on the other end of the
wire are just that: people.

I've seen behaviors change among team members for the better. Plus,
maybe I can learn how to pronouce more than half of your names. :)

Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Hangouts

[William Hubbs]

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On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 09:14:44AM +0100, Diego Elio Pettenò wrote:
> A VC is a full commitment, and its attractiveness is often much higher
> _before_ you use it..

Agreed.

I have found that if I am on a voice chat with someone, say on skype, it
requires my full attention, especially since I use assistive technology
to access my computer.

I use synthetic speech to tell me what is happening on screen and it is
difficult at times to keep up with that and the voice conversation. This
is even more true in a group voice conference.

William


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Hangouts

[Tobias Klausmann]

Hi! 

On Mon, 24 Jun 2013, Diego Elio Pettenò wrote:
> I've worked on a VC system most of last year and I now go
> through regular conferences... it's barely okay from a work
> point of view, it takes lots of time to organize so you don't
> want to do that every single day for sure.

It depends how you run it. We have teams having a video thing
open during the day with there geographically-diverse other team
members and it works well for them. For those teams, it also
improves cohesion. Geographically-diverse teams always have to
actively fight the us-vs-them vibe that seems to be fundamental
human nature. Aforementioned video link is part of that.

> And unlike IRC meetings, you can cannot multitask, say making
> your dinner while discussing this or that feature.

As others have pointed out, this is a double edged sword:
Sometimes, having less distraction (or getting away with less
distraction) is a Good Thing.

> A VC is a full commitment, and its attractiveness is often much
> higher _before_ you use it..

This does not hold true for me. I'd never used VC before joining
my current company, and I love it -- iff the alternative is not
meeting at all or text-only. As I pointed out above, it is
crucial for team cohesion.

The basic question is: why do you do it? what do you want to get
out of it? If you just want to have a get-together, like going to
the pub together for a few beers, all prep it needs is finding a
time. And beer, maybe.

If you want to have a distincly productive meeting, you need an
agenda/goals and someone to _run_ the meeeting. But that is true
of IRC meetings, too. 

About the only thing that IRC meetings are invariably better at,
is logging. Note, however, that logging is no replacment for
agendas or summarizing the outcome of the meeting.

Regards,
Tobias

Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Hangouts

[Diego Elio Pettenò]

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On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 4:43 PM, Tobias Klausmann <klausman@gentoo.org>wrote:
>
> It depends how you run it. We have teams having a video thing
> open during the day with there geographically-diverse other team
> members and it works well for them. For those teams, it also
> improves cohesion. Geographically-diverse teams always have to
> actively fight the us-vs-them vibe that seems to be fundamental
> human nature. Aforementioned video link is part of that.
>

Sure, but first of all these are private meetings, and not public ones.
Even more, they are meetings private to the company, and not even with
customers. You can tell that the response to a public vs private meeting is
definitely different. I've witnessed before people trying go show off even
more just because a camera is involved, which can be obnoxious, in my
opinion.


> > And unlike IRC meetings, you can cannot multitask, say making
> > your dinner while discussing this or that feature.
>
> As others have pointed out, this is a double edged sword:
> Sometimes, having less distraction (or getting away with less
> distraction) is a Good Thing.
>

Yeah sure if you can afford it. One thing that people seem to miss is that
Gentoo is _not_ an employment. And while we'd like to keep professional
behaviour, the system of incentives and disincentives that work for an
employment position do not apply to organizations like Gentoo.


>
> > A VC is a full commitment, and its attractiveness is often much
> > higher _before_ you use it..
>
> This does not hold true for me. I'd never used VC before joining
> my current company, and I love it -- iff the alternative is not
> meeting at all or text-only. As I pointed out above, it is
> crucial for team cohesion.
>

Sure and in some ways it's a least worst option. On the other hand you and
I both know that it's not as easy as saying "okay let's all meet at 7" —
timezones, hardware issues, connection issues, you name it. We sidestep
most of these issues as the various problems have been ironed out before..
but to start doing "regular" hangouts between Gentoo teams? It's going to
involve lots of work.


> If you want to have a distincly productive meeting, you need an
> agenda/goals and someone to _run_ the meeeting. But that is true
> of IRC meetings, too.
>
> About the only thing that IRC meetings are invariably better at,
> is logging. Note, however, that logging is no replacment for
> agendas or summarizing the outcome of the meeting.
>

On the other hand, I would be _very_ much against using Hangouts for
anything that involves decision-making or explanation of future planning,
for the very reasons I originally pointed out:

 * they require too much time set aside (I can't even lurk a Hangout if I'm
cooking, or working, or my phone only knows what);
 * they are not for everyone (English is not universal as we'd wish it is —
if it wasn't for last year's experience, I wouldn't want speaking English
in public; William also pointed out another reason);
 * I don't expect a great signal to noise, not only at the beginning but
throughout: try to imagine an unmoderated IRC channel being spoken aloud,
then add a bunch of "can you hear/see me?" from every other participant,
the "what did you say? I can't understand you" and so on so forth.

Honestly, I see as much potential to cause further issues in a team as
there is to solve them.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo Hangouts

[Sven Vermeulen]

On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 12:04:04PM +0100, Markos Chandras wrote:
> I like the idea. It might help bring developers and users closer.

Me too, if I can ever contribute to it, or help users with their Gentoo
(Hardened/SELinux/IMA/EVM/...) through it, I'll be happy to work with it.

Wkr,
  Sven Vermeulen

Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Hangouts

[Egg Plant]

----- Original Message -----

> From: Michael Palimaka <kensington@gentoo.org>
> 
> On 24/06/2013 07:30, Pavlos Ratis wrote:
>>  That's why I'd like to propose Gentoo Hangouts. Gentoo Hangouts 
> will
>>  be Google+  video Hangouts(video calls) held by teams or developers
>>  independent of a team. The main goal is to have the teams introduce
>>  themselves and discuss about different issues in their Gentoo-related
>>  projects.
> 
> Thanks for taking the time and initiative to work on something new, I am 
> sure it will prove interesting.
> 
> It is the response that confuses me - I don't understand why everyone is 
> rushing to shut it down before it even begins. For those that are not 
> interested in the idea of a video hangout, just don't use it and move on 
> - simple.
>


I don't know whether a new gentoo user like me have any say here, I would like to point out some problems about this proposal !

1. Video requires high bandwidth internet, so useless in developing countries, where even today you can not think of 24x7 internet. Yes, there are Broadband, 3G, 4G, ... just as advertisement, no real speed or reliability, or you may say we can not bear the huge cost.


2. Gentoo is not backed by any public invested company or private company, no corporation. So there is nobody to show your monthly/quarterly progress, nothing to hide intelligently. That is why I'm here.

3. I am subscribed to almost all mailing lists (I think it's justified for a newcomer), so already getting huge mails. There is IRC for realtime communication, which is easily configurable in any computing device, no big price, no hidden code (atleast for the client), no high bandwidth network, no battery drain.

4. More communication channels will just create fragmentation & distraction. Installing & maintaing Gentoo is already a big work, now if I have to check regularly the huge Mailing lists, IRC, Bugzilla, git and now you are saying about Google Hangout, may be later someone will say about Twitter, Facebook, .... I am just finished. It will just waste our time. FYI, I am not a Computer Science student/engineer/researcher.

 [N.B.: Gentoo is different from other distros, every user need to be half developer/tester here. It's not as polished/finished as the binary distros (atleast what they want to be). It provides choice, ultimate customization, which is not a child play. Users like to be aware of what is cooking with the ebuilds & sourcecode, what will eventually come within a couple of months to their stable system, unlike 6 months of testing interval in binary distros.]

5. I do'nt know whether people outside of UK, USA, Australia, Canada, Germany and elites of  India, South Africa are at all comfortable with spoken english, I mean to speak. So language will be a big barrier for this type of your promotional activity.

 [N.B.: I am neither considering Gentoo because some Hero/Idol said so or helping me out, nor just Stumbleupon it, I am here after trying other distros and lots of associated frustration. Distrowatch is there to maintain the Linux Distro Stock Exchange.]

6. other members already stated some other valid reasons against it, I'm not repeating.

7. It can be ok if you or somebody else do it as an unofficial effort, don't request the teams to make it another official channel.

8. For promotional activities, I would like to have an YouTube/<AnyPopularSite> channel on getting started type video tutorial, or developer's interview etc, specially during new Live DVD releases, Gentoo birthday, 25th December (people will have one week to play with Gentoo). If possible, make it multilingual or atleast provide multilingual subtitle.

9. On a different note, I would like to have the Handbook split into different parts: 1. Getting started (installation in Qemu/Virtualbox preferably), 2. Advanced Network configuration, 3. Software Management in details, 4. System/Service management (OpenRC, Systemd). The big book for a newcomer is toooo boring.
I know it's not the right place, just a comment for now!


===========
I'm yet a learner, warn me if I'm doing any wrong... [|:-)

[gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo Hangouts

[Michael Palimaka]

On 25/06/2013 22:42, Egg Plant wrote:
> I don't know whether a new gentoo user like me have any say here, I would like to point out some problems about this proposal !
>
> 1. Video requires high bandwidth internet, so useless in developing countries, where even today you can not think of 24x7 internet. Yes, there are Broadband, 3G, 4G, ... just as advertisement, no real speed or reliability, or you may say we can not bear the huge cost.
>
>
> 2. Gentoo is not backed by any public invested company or private company, no corporation. So there is nobody to show your monthly/quarterly progress, nothing to hide intelligently. That is why I'm here.
>
> 3. I am subscribed to almost all mailing lists (I think it's justified for a newcomer), so already getting huge mails. There is IRC for realtime communication, which is easily configurable in any computing device, no big price, no hidden code (atleast for the client), no high bandwidth network, no battery drain.
>
> 4. More communication channels will just create fragmentation & distraction. Installing & maintaing Gentoo is already a big work, now if I have to check regularly the huge Mailing lists, IRC, Bugzilla, git and now you are saying about Google Hangout, may be later someone will say about Twitter, Facebook, .... I am just finished. It will just waste our time. FYI, I am not a Computer Science student/engineer/researcher.
>
>   [N.B.: Gentoo is different from other distros, every user need to be half developer/tester here. It's not as polished/finished as the binary distros (atleast what they want to be). It provides choice, ultimate customization, which is not a child play. Users like to be aware of what is cooking with the ebuilds & sourcecode, what will eventually come within a couple of months to their stable system, unlike 6 months of testing interval in binary distros.]
>
> 5. I do'nt know whether people outside of UK, USA, Australia, Canada, Germany and elites of  India, South Africa are at all comfortable with spoken english, I mean to speak. So language will be a big barrier for this type of your promotional activity.
>
>   [N.B.: I am neither considering Gentoo because some Hero/Idol said so or helping me out, nor just Stumbleupon it, I am here after trying other distros and lots of associated frustration. Distrowatch is there to maintain the Linux Distro Stock Exchange.]
>
> 6. other members already stated some other valid reasons against it, I'm not repeating.
>
> 7. It can be ok if you or somebody else do it as an unofficial effort, don't request the teams to make it another official channel.
>
> 8. For promotional activities, I would like to have an YouTube/<AnyPopularSite> channel on getting started type video tutorial, or developer's interview etc, specially during new Live DVD releases, Gentoo birthday, 25th December (people will have one week to play with Gentoo). If possible, make it multilingual or atleast provide multilingual subtitle.
>
> 9. On a different note, I would like to have the Handbook split into different parts: 1. Getting started (installation in Qemu/Virtualbox preferably), 2. Advanced Network configuration, 3. Software Management in details, 4. System/Service management (OpenRC, Systemd). The big book for a newcomer is toooo boring.
> I know it's not the right place, just a comment for now!
>
>
> ===========
> I'm yet a learner, warn me if I'm doing any wrong... [|:-)
>
>

These are all good reasons to not use Hangouts. Fortunately, there was 
nothing in the proposal to suggest that it will be required for anyone, 
or that it will replace any existing source of information. Therefore 
anyone who chooses not to make use of Hangouts will not otherwise be 
affected by them.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo Hangouts

[Rich Freeman]

On Tue, Jun 25, 2013 at 9:29 AM, Michael Palimaka <kensington@gentoo.org> wrote:
> These are all good reasons to not use Hangouts. Fortunately, there was
> nothing in the proposal to suggest that it will be required for anyone, or
> that it will replace any existing source of information. Therefore anyone
> who chooses not to make use of Hangouts will not otherwise be affected by
> them.

Right now the only "required" forums for communication for developers
are the -core and -dev-announce mailing lists, as far as I'm aware.
Not even IRC is a required communication medium, though obviously that
is where most meetings are held.

My main beef with IRC is that meetings tend to drag on, which is fine
if you're multi-tasking, but not so fine if you have someplace to be
and you'd rather get it done with sooner so that you can get on the
road or whatever (where multitasking isn't exactly safe).  I think
that moving more communication to asynchronous channels might be a
better solution than either Hangouts or IRC, and then using
synchronous channels for things that actually benefit from it (team
building, matters that need some interaction, etc).

Rich

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo Hangouts

[Egg Plant]

----- Original Message -----
> From: Michael Palimaka <kensington@gentoo.org>
> 
> On 25/06/2013 22:42, Egg Plant wrote:
>>  I don't know whether a new gentoo user like me have any say here, I 
> would like to point out some problems about this proposal !
>> 
>>  2. Gentoo is not backed by any public invested company or private company, 
> no corporation. So there is nobody to show your monthly/quarterly progress, 
> nothing to hide intelligently. That is why I'm here.
>> 
>>  4. More communication channels will just create fragmentation & 
> distraction. Installing & maintaing Gentoo is already a big work, now if I 
> have to check regularly the huge Mailing lists, IRC, Bugzilla, git and now you 
> are saying about Google Hangout, may be later someone will say about Twitter, 
> Facebook, .... I am just finished. It will just waste our time. FYI, I am not a 
> Computer Science student/engineer/researcher.
>> 
>> 
>>    [N.B.: I am neither considering Gentoo because some Hero/Idol said so or 
> helping me out, nor just Stumbleupon it, I am here after trying other distros 
> and lots of associated frustration. ...]
>> 
>>  7. It can be ok if you or somebody else do it as an unofficial effort, 
> don't request the teams to make it another official channel.
>> 
>> 
> 
> These are all good reasons to not use Hangouts. Fortunately, there was 
> nothing in the proposal to suggest that it will be required for anyone, 
> or that it will replace any existing source of information. Therefore 
> anyone who chooses not to make use of Hangouts will not otherwise be 
> affected by them.
>


According to Pavlos Ratis proposal, it will be another channel of communication. I am not protesting to setup an unofficial channel there.

I am fearing that it will gradually become an avenue for talent show, similar to other binary distros. That is why I am against to make it official channel.


Video is more attractive than Text or still photo.

Several developers, who can afford the resources, will gradually shift their communication to that channel. It's somewhat cyclic dependency or chain reaction. It will just increase our workload (of gentoo development awareness). More fragmentation & distraction as well as other technical problems mentioned by others & me.

I don't want any unnecessary attention from some Computer Science students (unable to get a job at Microsoft or Apple!   sorry, I don't like to be that hard) to show their talent and gift me with another unstable, unreliable, expectation only, useless distro.

Change is good, only if it improves our life. For colourfull life there are other things one can play with.

The resourcefull developers/users can meet each other at Gentoo Miniconf and similar other gatherings in real world. That will make us more human.

[P.S.: request you to read my first mail once again, I am not totally against this type of activity. Everything has it's place & time.]
 
===========
I'm yet a learner, warn me if I'm doing any wrong... [|:-)

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo Hangouts

[Rich Freeman]

On Tue, Jun 25, 2013 at 11:09 AM, Egg Plant <egg.plant@rocketmail.com> wrote:
> The resourcefull developers/users can meet each other at Gentoo Miniconf and
> similar other gatherings in real world. That will make us more human.

I don't think this is really sufficient.  As far as I can tell most
people attend such things based on how far they happen to live from
such an event, or whether they have an employer who is willing to pay
for such attendance.  It has little to do with resources, unless
you're talking about so much discretionary money that you're literally
willing to spend $1-2k on travel.  I certainly am not aware of any
conference that Gentoo has had a substantial presence at within a few
hundred miles of where I live.

I think anything that helps increase interaction among devs is a good
thing.  Teams are welcome to organize their meetings in whatever
format works best for them.  Gentoo developers are not required to use
IRC at all.  Everybody has their favorite medium - some prefer email,
some forums, some IRC, some hangouts/etc, and so on.  Some prefer
meeting on weekdays vs weekends, morning vs evening, etc.  There are
going to be people inconvenienced or left out no matter what we do.
Sure, some will not be able to participate in Hangouts who could
participate in IRC, but the reverse is true as well.

Rich

[gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo Hangouts

[Michael Palimaka]

On 26/06/2013 01:09, Egg Plant wrote:
> According to Pavlos Ratis proposal, it will be another channel of communication. I am not protesting to setup an unofficial channel there.
>
> I am fearing that it will gradually become an avenue for talent show, similar to other binary distros. That is why I am against to make it official channel.
What makes it official or not? Does it make any practical difference?

> Video is more attractive than Text or still photo.
>
> Several developers, who can afford the resources, will gradually shift their communication to that channel. It's somewhat cyclic dependency or chain reaction. It will just increase our workload (of gentoo development awareness). More fragmentation & distraction as well as other technical problems mentioned by others & me.
Perhaps some will. Does that matter? There is already plenty of 
"fragmentation" - we have over 70 IRC channels and 60 mailing lists, not 
to mention blogs, wikis, overlays and countless other methods of 
development and communication.

As Rich said, everyone has their favourite medium and every medium is 
not suitable for every person.

> I don't want any unnecessary attention from some Computer Science students (unable to get a job at Microsoft or Apple!   sorry, I don't like to be that hard) to show their talent and gift me with another unstable, unreliable, expectation only, useless distro.
I am not sure what this has to do with hangouts.

> Change is good, only if it improves our life. For colourfull life there are other things one can play with.
>
> The resourcefull developers/users can meet each other at Gentoo Miniconf and similar other gatherings in real world. That will make us more human.
Again, Rich was spot on here. A quick search of reveals that it would 
have taken me approximately 30-40 hours in transit and $4,000-$6,000 in 
flights alone to have attended the Miniconf.

> [P.S.: request you to read my first mail once again, I am not totally against this type of activity. Everything has it's place & time.]
>
> ===========
> I'm yet a learner, warn me if I'm doing any wrong... [|:-)
>
>

Best regards,
Michael

Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Hangouts

[Roy Bamford]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1047 bytes --]

On 2013.06.23 22:30, Pavlos Ratis wrote:
> Hello all,
> 
> Everyday we talk to each other about different kind of things related
> to Gentoo. IRC and MLs are the primary way of our communication, but
> this is only a text-based communication. I think sometimes it would 
> be
> better to escape from that.
> 
>
[snip]

> Pavlos
> 
> 
I think audio might be useful but video won't add very much and for 
some topics, will just be a distraction.  

Having used both video and audio conferencing to span the world since 
ISDN was new, once you get more than about three or four participating 
nodes, control becomes difficult ... that's not changed over the years.

Accents are a problem even among native English speakers and by that I 
mean British English from England, not even the entire UK.

Heres a test for you ... http://linuxcrazy.com/?q=node/26
I have a South West England accent ... can you understand me?

-- 
Regards,

Roy Bamford
(Neddyseagoon) a member of
elections
gentoo-ops
forum-mods
trustees

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Hangouts

[hasufell]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 06/25/2013 07:57 PM, Roy Bamford wrote:
> On 2013.06.23 22:30, Pavlos Ratis wrote:
>> Hello all,
>> 
>> Everyday we talk to each other about different kind of things
>> related to Gentoo. IRC and MLs are the primary way of our
>> communication, but this is only a text-based communication. I
>> think sometimes it would be better to escape from that.
>> 
>> 
> [snip]
> 
>> Pavlos
>> 
>> 
> I think audio might be useful but video won't add very much and for
>  some topics, will just be a distraction.
> 
> Having used both video and audio conferencing to span the world
> since ISDN was new, once you get more than about three or four
> participating nodes, control becomes difficult ... that's not
> changed over the years.
> 
> Accents are a problem even among native English speakers and by
> that I mean British English from England, not even the entire UK.
> 
> Heres a test for you ... http://linuxcrazy.com/?q=node/26 I have a
> South West England accent ... can you understand me?
> 

Yes,

I think in the century of cinema, youtube and all that crap people are
used to different kinds of english accents.

I can only say I will probably not participate in any of this.
Conference with one or two devs is ok for me and works pretty well,
but anything bigger than that... no thanks.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo Hangouts

[Daniel Campbell]

On 06/24/2013 05:54 AM, Michael Palimaka wrote:
> On 24/06/2013 07:30, Pavlos Ratis wrote:
>> That's why I'd like to propose Gentoo Hangouts. Gentoo Hangouts will
>> be Google+  video Hangouts(video calls) held by teams or developers
>> independent of a team. The main goal is to have the teams introduce
>> themselves and discuss about different issues in their Gentoo-related
>> projects.
> 
> Thanks for taking the time and initiative to work on something new, I am
> sure it will prove interesting.
> 
> It is the response that confuses me - I don't understand why everyone is
> rushing to shut it down before it even begins. For those that are not
> interested in the idea of a video hangout, just don't use it and move on
> - simple.
> 

I'm a user (and would-be dev) and don't like the idea of relying on
anything related to Google or another outside entity for devs and/or
users to communicate. The software is also non-free and closed source.

It's true that people can "just move on", but that strikes me as an
attempt to ward off criticism and not work at solving the perceived
problem: "how do we get richer communication between Gentoo devs/users?"

Mumble exists for voice chat... certainly there's a FOSS video chat
option somewhere? Diego's points wrt time management and multitasking
are also salient.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Hangouts

[Egg Plant]

----- Original Message -----
> From: Michael Palimaka <kensington@gentoo.org>
> 
> On 26/06/2013 01:09, Egg Plant wrote:
>>  According to Pavlos Ratis proposal, it will be another channel of 
> communication. I am not protesting to setup an unofficial channel there.
>> 
>>  I am fearing that it will gradually become an avenue for talent show, 
> similar to other binary distros. That is why I am against to make it official 
> channel.
> What makes it official or not? Does it make any practical difference?
> 

Yes. I think it will make our life better if any developer discuss or at least notify in the proper mailing list or IRC channel (as of now more accessible by majority of users & developers) before committing any horrible idea. Again I would remind you, I am not against any change that will improve our life.

E.g., one can install Gentoo from binary packages, one can run Gentoo with Systemd instead of OpenRC, there are lots of other possibilities with Gentoo. But a newcommer is directed to read a "handbook" which will guide him/her using source packages & OpenRC. This is what I call official recommendation.


>>  Video is more attractive than Text or still photo.
>> 
>>  Several developers, who can afford the resources, will gradually shift 
> their communication to that channel. It's somewhat cyclic dependency or 
> chain reaction. It will just increase our workload (of gentoo development 
> awareness). More fragmentation & distraction as well as other technical 
> problems mentioned by others & me.
> Perhaps some will. Does that matter? There is already plenty of 
> "fragmentation" - we have over 70 IRC channels and 60 mailing lists, 
> not 
> to mention blogs, wikis, overlays and countless other methods of 
> development and communication.

Yes. We can not control or change this universe, only we can try to make our life beter.


> As Rich said, everyone has their favourite medium and every medium is 
> not suitable for every person.

I am not against it. Read my mails one more time.


>>  I don't want any unnecessary attention from some Computer Science 
> students (unable to get a job at Microsoft or Apple!   sorry, I don't like 
> to be that hard) to show their talent and gift me with another unstable, 
> unreliable, expectation only, useless distro.
> I am not sure what this has to do with hangouts.

I am keeping my mouth shut here. More talk will lead to discussion on religion or political or management level (i.e., /dev/null).


>>  Change is good, only if it improves our life. For colourfull life there are 
> other things one can play with.
>> 
>>  The resourcefull developers/users can meet each other at Gentoo Miniconf 
> and similar other gatherings in real world. That will make us more human.
> Again, Rich was spot on here. A quick search of reveals that it would 
> have taken me approximately 30-40 hours in transit and $4,000-$6,000 in 
> flights alone to have attended the Miniconf.

I am not saying these gatherings are good replacement for Video conferencing.


>>  [P.S.: request you to read my first mail once again, I am not totally 
> against this type of activity. Everything has it's place & time.]
>> 
> 
> Best regards,
> Michael
>


I am replying only to you doesn't mean I am attacking you personally. Just I am explaining my point of view about the proposal.

Thanks for your kind attention.
I am not going to indulge on this topic any more.
 
===========
I'm yet a learner, warn me if I'm doing any wrong... [|:-)

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo Hangouts

[Francisco Blas Izquierdo Riera (klondike)]

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El 24/06/13 19:10, Sven Vermeulen escribió:
> On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 12:04:04PM +0100, Markos Chandras wrote:
>> I like the idea. It might help bring developers and users closer.
> Me too, if I can ever contribute to it, or help users with their Gentoo
> (Hardened/SELinux/IMA/EVM/...) through it, I'll be happy to work with it.
I also find this a good idea, in the hardened team we have managed to
keep a familiar feeling amongst us thanks to conferences and I know some
devs don't have the chance to assist to these so having some small talk
amongst us over videoconference may help strengthen that feeling.

That said, I refuse to keep the hardened team meeting on VC. I have
enough tweeting main point in "unreal time" to do the same with VC xD


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo Hangouts

[Donnie Berkholz]

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On 09:21 Mon 24 Jun     , Mike Pagano wrote:
> Sometimes it helps to realize that the people on the other end of the
> wire are just that: people.
> 
> I've seen behaviors change among team members for the better.

^^ This.

Seeing people as close to "in person" as we can get without a conference 
really does help to improve the quality of our interactions. It's a lot 
harder to be a jerk when you can picture the person you're writing to as 
a living, breathing person.

Given recent, and more distant, actions by some of our community with 
DevRel consequences, it should be clear that treating our fellow 
developers decently is a problem. And seriously, hopping on a video chat 
once or twice a year should be doable for most of us.

I don't necessarily care a lot about the PR value of any replays, I see 
it as much more important to strengthening Gentoo than to do outreach. 

That said, I've gotten over 10,000 views of an intro talk on Gentoo 
that's posted on YouTube despite its pretty bad audio quality, and 
nearly 2,000 views of a Gentoo talk targeted at developers, so there's 
clearly people looking for this stuff.

-- 
Thanks,
Donnie

Donnie Berkholz
Council Member / Sr. Developer, Gentoo Linux <http://dberkholz.com>
Analyst, RedMonk <http://redmonk.com/dberkholz/>

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Hangouts

[Peter Stuge]

Diego Elio Pettenò wrote:
> just opening a webcam and talking is just going to give an amateurish feeling

..as opposed to the very professional mailing list.


//Peter

Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Hangouts

[Raymond Jennings]

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Not to mention how do you actually log a hangout for the record instead of
already having logs from an irc session or mailing list.


On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 at 2:10 AM, Peter Stuge <peter@stuge.se> wrote:

> Diego Elio Pettenò wrote:
> > just opening a webcam and talking is just going to give an amateurish
> feeling
>
> ..as opposed to the very professional mailing list.
>
>
> //Peter
>
>

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Hangouts

[Pavlos Ratis]

As far as I can see, opinions about VCs are 50-50. However, I don't
see any disadvantages adding video hangouts to the project. VCs _are
not_ mandatory and doesn't replace any of our current communication
methods. You are not forced to participate. It's all about choice. If
there are no objections and if the PR team gives an ack. I'd like to
add video hangouts under the PR project (I'll create a simple faq page
in wiki about VCs).

Thanks,
Pavlos

On Sat, Jul 6, 2013 at 12:40 AM, Raymond Jennings <shentino@gmail.com> wrote:
> Not to mention how do you actually log a hangout for the record instead of
> already having logs from an irc session or mailing list.
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 at 2:10 AM, Peter Stuge <peter@stuge.se> wrote:
>>
>> Diego Elio Pettenò wrote:
>> > just opening a webcam and talking is just going to give an amateurish
>> > feeling
>>
>> ..as opposed to the very professional mailing list.
>>
>>
>> //Peter
>>
>

Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Hangouts

[Donnie Berkholz]

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On 18:52 Mon 08 Jul     , Pavlos Ratis wrote:
> As far as I can see, opinions about VCs are 50-50. However, I don't
> see any disadvantages adding video hangouts to the project. VCs _are
> not_ mandatory and doesn't replace any of our current communication
> methods. You are not forced to participate. It's all about choice. If
> there are no objections and if the PR team gives an ack. I'd like to
> add video hangouts under the PR project (I'll create a simple faq page
> in wiki about VCs).

Go ahead. Experiments are always welcome.

-- 
Thanks,
Donnie

Donnie Berkholz
Council Member / Sr. Developer, Gentoo Linux <http://dberkholz.com>
Analyst, RedMonk <http://redmonk.com/dberkholz/>

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