From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 76502138239 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 22:59:14 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id ECBB2E0A9A; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 22:59:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-oi0-f67.google.com (mail-oi0-f67.google.com [209.85.218.67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9E829E0A96 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 22:59:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-oi0-f67.google.com with SMTP id l82-v6so14205530oih.11 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 15:59:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=LNEfcTizvuTeHl5Ba0KX7SK/iR0B6fbaz0HPBMKGyrk=; b=pHOl44OYr40dpYhGLJm2KrJxMq/U5Mzv07pxEtgVmxzqjKIJv3KmbP8zIaSqxNuK5y CUkk+0kRi5Wr5Rn4fMlg8ct/NH6Y1dmBrbWx3yOeYGh+ArgG/wwlZDG3Qk+i1OevRK+9 bp3MvhtTQnTctEEu/J01GoE4/iK3VpXPZ1y/Jwh7WbeKon3QZJ+x+PHr5hZejDCKsBq5 J5ig9dYP7qAjk2qKqy/luW8XRanBw+42rLPmd7BYQhDfforaV7aTFRS/9kXhC/DPx8Pm p2Ajf9+Ra8jHvKaiyJYv5bb9xAyjDEv0rg52NWldUXC8/GvBjy5EYNgTqge+cki7E7bj 5pfA== X-Gm-Message-State: APzg51Bwa55sO98EgVLzmDZQ3JVFzKP6jEsqHmHa7nJyN+461zpbKwPC WIllKOOk4wtHqXn80xQjQdGx1iH0flfBL40dM92cUwc4 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ANB0Vdbh2V46oVkesf+ZHyLiSI/T3E1a7KoKAOTO1h3cUYYpJxpUxr8/6fJ2hbMQTC60Q/uESOTAum694SbeF4xG8jo= X-Received: by 2002:aca:d706:: with SMTP id o6-v6mr11359424oig.45.1536965949363; Fri, 14 Sep 2018 15:59:09 -0700 (PDT) Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4318377f-9428-d79a-3ba3-5b2c1ad68166@gentoo.org> <1536946390.1087.1.camel@gentoo.org> <72caf534-9d11-b88c-5f94-901140a240a4@gentoo.org> <73BDD985-3347-4BA9-967A-7EF75785DA08@gentoo.org> <20180914210205.GF26329@gentoo.org> <20180914212855.GH26329@gentoo.org> <63EE15D4-35A3-41C5-A8C6-E56E32868708@gentoo.org> In-Reply-To: <63EE15D4-35A3-41C5-A8C6-E56E32868708@gentoo.org> From: Alon Bar-Lev Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2018 01:58:56 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] Changing policy about -Werror To: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Archives-Salt: 6d9c8565-875f-4cc2-be55-d0621962b35e X-Archives-Hash: 0f77a437e152f6b5e0a262ff823e01ff On Sat, Sep 15, 2018 at 1:14 AM Richard Yao wrote: > > On Sep 14, 2018, at 5:28 PM, Fabian Groffen wrote: > > > > On 15-09-2018 00:07:12 +0300, Alon Bar-Lev wrote: > >>> > >>> Perhaps, if one persists on going this route, only do this for platforms > >>> that upstream supports, such that arches which will suffer from this > >>> (typically ppc, sparc, ...) don't have to be blocked by this. > >> > >> Exactly in these cases the -Werror is useful as if upstream expects no > >> warnings then any warning should block installation and trigger bug > >> report. In Gentoo in many cases we use packages on platform has no > >> access to, our feedback to upstream is valuable. A great example is > >> gnutls in which we collectively (maintainer, unstable users, > >> architecture teams, stable users) found issues on architectures that > >> almost nobody other than Gentoo has access to. > >> > > > > I don't believe Gentoo users are (supposed to be) an extension of > > upstreams. If upstreams insist on that, they should make their software > > non-free, adding a non-modification clause or something. In any case, > > it is not Gentoo's job IMHO. In the end it is Gentoo who needs to care > > for its users. I prefer we do that by giving them an option to become > > that extension of upstream, e.g. by USE=upstream-cflags, which Gentoo > > disables by default. > I am in complete agreement on this. Users should not be guinea pigs to help upstream unless they opt into it. A new release of upstream is out, early adopters (what we call unstable users) are guinea pings. A new release is stabilized, users are guinea pings. A new toolchain that upstream did not test, users are guinea pings. A new dependency version or a Gentoo virtual with "compatible library", users are guinea pings. Let's say upstream does not have access to architecture X we at Gentoo decide to support this architecture, maintainer do not have access to this architecture as well, architecture team is guinea pings, but it does not actually use the package, then back to early adopters and users. This process has nothing to do with -Werror, our process relays on users as guinea pings, by definition developers and arch teams cannot test entire software and all permutation of the software. The -Werror (if supported by upstream and downstream, I outlined the conditions many times) is a tool (among other) to help stop the process at early stage when suspicious finding is there to allow deal with the situation to make sure that the software is compatible with an environment or permutation that upstream and maintainer do not have direct access to. It is a tool to help users to have better system integrity (once again, provided some conditions apply).