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* [gentoo-dev] Last rites: sys-fs/eudev
@ 2021-11-27  0:23 Mike Gilbert
  2022-08-30  9:52 ` Jaco Kroon
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 116+ messages in thread
From: Mike Gilbert @ 2021-11-27  0:23 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev-announce, gentoo-dev

# eudev will be removed on 2022-01-01.
# Please see the news item published on 2021-08-24 for more information.
sys-fs/eudev


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 116+ messages in thread
* [gentoo-dev] last rites: sys-fs/eudev
@ 2023-09-11 15:14 Andreas K. Huettel
  2023-09-11 15:22 ` orbea
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 116+ messages in thread
From: Andreas K. Huettel @ 2023-09-11 15:14 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev-announce, gentoo-dev, eudev

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# Andreas K. Hüttel <dilfridge@gentoo.org> (2023-09-11)
# Dead project accumulating open bugs and incompatibilities.
# No maintainer commits since February 2021.
# Bugs 673834, 713106, 753134, 667686, 771705, 668880, 770358, 851255,
# 711462, 904741, ... Removal in 30 days.
sys-fs/eudev

-- 
Andreas K. Hüttel
dilfridge@gentoo.org
Gentoo Linux developer
(council, toolchain, base-system, perl, libreoffice)

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 116+ messages in thread
* Re: [gentoo-dev] last rites: sys-fs/eudev
@ 2023-09-13  1:23 Alex Boag-Munroe
  2023-09-13  1:48 ` Alex Boag-Munroe
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 116+ messages in thread
From: Alex Boag-Munroe @ 2023-09-13  1:23 UTC (permalink / raw
  To: gentoo-dev

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 8000 bytes --]

>Matt Turner wrote:
>> On Tue, Sep 12, 2023 at 5:23 PM Eddie Chapman <eddie@ehuk.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Why would you think that by having an alternative in tree it means that
>>> everyone else is then forced into doing work that they don't want to
>>> and it will inconvenience everyone?
>>
>> Because it's already happened!
>>
>> commit 6404b064d63d182da4a8a193533a188cdf832d41 Author: Mike Gilbert
>> <floppym@gentoo.org>
>> Date:   Sun Jul 30 14:07:47 2023 -0400
>>
>> virtual/libudev: add eudev and sticky-tags USE flags
>>
>> eudev lacks API support for the new libudev functions that differentiate
>> between sticky and current tags on device events.
>>
>> Add a USE flag so we can depend on the new API from libgudev.
>>
>> commit 319b4ed88674af738bd3fd90e56dc06c88de15db Author: Mike Gilbert
>> <floppym@gentoo.org>
>> Date:   Sun Jul 30 14:10:44 2023 -0400
>>
>> dev-libs/libgudev: depend on virtual/libudev[sticky-tags]
>>
>> And as a result we have had at least three bug reports from users
>> complaining that they cannot update:
>>
>> https://bugs.gentoo.org/913702
>> https://bugs.gentoo.org/913900
>> https://bugs.gentoo.org/913954
>
>If I'm not mistaken these 3 bug reports are all from users trying to run
>their systems free of systemd, i.e. with eudev. So it is the eudev users,
>not the udev (presumably the majority) ones who have been inconvenienced.
>
>But I think I see your point that here eudev is causing problems for
>Gentoo devs who are seeing perhaps an influx of users complaining because
>of the problem created by eudev not keeping up with udev API changes.
>
>However, perhaps a better approach might have been a news item informing
>users of dev-libs/libgudev i.e. desktop users that using eudev with
>dev-libs/libgudev is no longer going to be possible going forward (which
>is out of control of Gentoo) and that they had a choice of either
>uninstalling their desktop environment (if it depended on
>dev-libs/libgudev) or switching to udev.  Then people who just run servers
>can continue using eudev if they wish, and there would be no need to
>remove it completely from the tree.  This is the approach I have argued
>for earlier in this thread.
>
>>> What if someone came along now and said
>>> they were willing to "step up" and maintain eudev and they were suitably
>>>  qualified? Is that really going to force everyone else to modify their
>>>  ways?
>
>> It doesn't matter what people say. It matters what they do. And so far
>> no one has done anything in more than two years to make eudev worth
>> keeping.
>
>Yes I agree that actions matter not words. However, maintainership does
>have to start with at least some words such as "OK I will step up and take
>care of it"
>
>> But the core of the issue for me is -- how is eudev even the slightest
>> bit better in any way than systemd-utils[udev]?
>
>Ok granted, as of right now eudev has not added any value as it has simply
>forked, made some small changes but essentially does the same job.
>However, again you're missing the point, there is a very significant
>number of users who for subjective/political/whatever non-technical
>reasons want eudev instead of udev. These are valid reasons, and before
>you try and argue they are not examine your own software choices and ask
>yourself if you always choose something entirely on technical merit.
>
>And, to be honest, eudev does not *have* to do anything different. If it
>provides roughly the same functionality as udev (minus new APIs) then it
>serves its purpose and is good enough for those users who use it. There
>are many examples of alternatives of one software or another that provide
>roughly the same functionality and yet we don't discard one of them simply
>because it is not adding features that make it subjectively better than
>the other one.
>
>Also, I don't think it's fair to just write the project off because it has
>just been existing, providing the same functionality.  There have been bug
>fixes and new releases, isn't that the minimum we expect?  It is certainly
>not abandoned and dead as it has been characterised here. Maybe it will
>become a proper fork in future and add something that udev doesn't have,
>who knows.

OK a quick qualifier for me as a respondent:

I hate systemd with a passion, a key reason I use Gentoo is openrc and I
wholeheartedly am of the belief that Poettering is an arse and systemd
becoming defacto/ubiquitous in Linux was a dark day. I have contributed to
the gentoo repo and regularly assist in #gentoo on IRC as well as having
submitted my fair share of bugs (and suggested fixes for them).

That said, eudev is no hill to die on. The way Gentoo splits out udev from
systemd accomplishes the goal of not having systemd "managing" your system,
which was the goal of eudev. Also the goal of eudev was to be a DROP IN
REPLACEMENT for udev, this is no longer the case. The thrust of the
complaints about the removal seems to be "but it's going to be HARD to
maintain this in an overlay" which is kinda the point of why it's being
binned from ::gentoo: no one wants to do that work for the Gentoo userbase.

"Works on my machine" is an argument to use an overlay, not keep it in
::gentoo where we've already seen 3 duplicate bug reports where it
_doesn't_ work on their machine. The upstream "fixes" for libgudev are a
stub at best and "quick and dirty" at worst, which is a direct quote from
the discussion of how to support libgudev. The PR to fix the API change is
50% "TODO" comments with fallback calls, the other 50% being a version bump
and header hack. Folks have posted some absolutely heinous discussions and
proposals from the eudev github as "proof" it's being maintained
adequately. Stubs and "quick and dirty" fixes aren't things I find suitable
for such a fundamental functionality of my system and I say this as a
former eudev user.

eudev is no longer viable as something that provides virtual/libudev, that
is its entire reason for existence in the ::gentoo repo.

I've read every single post on this thread, the comparisons to Firefox vs
Chrome are utterly ridiculous, both are regularly maintained upstream and
both still provide Web Access as people expect AND both have active package
maintainers. It is safe to say that at time of writing eudev is not
delivering on its drop in promise however little WHAT it doesn't satisfy
concerns YOU as a complainer. For ::gentoo the entire userbase has to be
considered.

The Gentoo team deserve precisely zero of the crap they're getting for this
decision. Either step up as a maintainer if it matters to you so much, or
maintain your own overlay if you only care about the things that matter to
you, which is a lesser undertaking of work than someone keeping it viable
for ::gentoo as a whole where working behaviour MATTERS for packages that
depend on virtual/libudev.

If it doesn't matter for you, overlay it, turn off sticky-tags and if you
have things that depend on libgudev, mask versions that want sticky-tags
and it's an exercise for the user when that's no longer possible.  I assure
you at some point it will become no longer possible.

To call back to my intro, eudev gives nothing that being able to pluck udev
from systemd gives, which Gentoo is able to do with aplomb.  No systemd for
me, openrc forever, cold dead hands etc.  If that changes then that's a
different discussion, whether eudev gets forked and revived or a new udev
fork happens. Until then I suggest a lot of folks need to unbunch some
underwear and either (in order of preference): get over it and switch to
openrc with systemd udev,  overlay with relevant USE flags and self
maintenance, or volunteer to maintain properly the sys-fs/eudev package
which not only includes keeping up with upstream but also delivering on the
promise that it can fulfill virtual/libudev.

--
Ninpo, known idiot

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 116+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2023-09-17 18:40 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 116+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2021-11-27  0:23 [gentoo-dev] Last rites: sys-fs/eudev Mike Gilbert
2022-08-30  9:52 ` Jaco Kroon
2022-08-30 10:27   ` Arve Barsnes
2022-08-30 12:26     ` Jaco Kroon
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2023-09-11 15:14 [gentoo-dev] last " Andreas K. Huettel
2023-09-11 15:22 ` orbea
2023-09-11 15:29   ` Andreas K. Huettel
2023-09-11 15:42     ` orbea
2023-09-11 17:25       ` martin-kokos
2023-09-11 17:45         ` orbea
2023-09-11 19:20       ` Dale
2023-09-11 20:31         ` Sam James
2023-09-11 21:14           ` orbea
2023-09-11 21:21             ` Sam James
2023-09-11 21:29               ` Alexey Sokolov
2023-09-11 21:35                 ` Sam James
2023-09-11 21:43                   ` Alexey Sokolov
2023-09-11 21:51                     ` Alexe Stefan
2023-09-11 21:59                       ` Sam James
2023-09-11 21:32               ` orbea
2023-09-11 21:50                 ` Sam James
2023-09-11 22:10                   ` orbea
2023-09-11 22:17                     ` Sam James
2023-09-12  2:34                       ` orbea
2023-09-12  9:18                         ` Rich Freeman
2023-09-12 11:00                           ` Alarig Le Lay
2023-09-11 21:27           ` Eddie Chapman
2023-09-11 21:41             ` Sam James
2023-09-11 22:22               ` Eddie Chapman
2023-09-11 22:27                 ` Sam James
2023-09-12 13:36                   ` Eddie Chapman
2023-09-12 13:57                     ` Sam James
2023-09-12 14:12                     ` Rich Freeman
2023-09-12 14:17                       ` Sam James
2023-09-12 15:04                         ` Eddie Chapman
2023-09-12 18:47                           ` Matt Turner
2023-09-12 15:35                         ` orbea
2023-09-12 17:23                           ` Alexe Stefan
2023-09-12 17:36                             ` orbea
2023-09-12 19:06                               ` Eddie Chapman
2023-09-12 19:32                                 ` orbea
2023-09-12 18:53                             ` Matt Turner
2023-09-12 18:58                               ` Alexe Stefan
2023-09-12 23:45                             ` karl
2023-09-12 18:51                           ` Matt Turner
2023-09-12 19:05                             ` orbea
2023-09-12 19:56                               ` Eli Schwartz
2023-09-12 20:59                                 ` Dale
2023-09-12 20:37                               ` Matt Turner
2023-09-12 14:55                       ` Eddie Chapman
2023-09-12 15:00                         ` Sam James
2023-09-12 19:21                         ` Andreas K. Huettel
2023-09-12 19:47                           ` Eddie Chapman
2023-09-12 20:33                             ` Andrew Ammerlaan
2023-09-12 21:23                               ` Eddie Chapman
2023-09-12 21:36                                 ` Matt Turner
2023-09-12 21:45                                   ` Alexe Stefan
2023-09-12 21:52                                     ` Matt Turner
2023-09-13  4:35                                       ` Alexe Stefan
2023-09-13  4:56                                         ` Eli Schwartz
2023-09-13  5:03                                           ` Alexe Stefan
2023-09-13  5:38                                             ` Eli Schwartz
2023-09-13  6:13                                               ` Alexe Stefan
2023-09-13  6:19                                                 ` Alexe Stefan
2023-09-13  6:40                                                 ` Dale
2023-09-13  6:54                                                   ` Alexe Stefan
2023-09-13  7:23                                                     ` Dale
2023-09-12 22:35                                   ` Eddie Chapman
2023-09-13  7:55                                 ` Andrew Ammerlaan
2023-09-13  8:10                                   ` Dale
2023-09-16  6:01                                     ` Oskari Pirhonen
2023-09-16  6:09                                       ` Sam James
2023-09-16  7:15                                         ` Dale
2023-09-13  8:13                                   ` Arve Barsnes
2023-09-13 23:49                                   ` Eddie Chapman
2023-09-14 14:16                                   ` Eddie Chapman
2023-09-14 14:44                                     ` Alex Boag-Munroe
2023-09-14 15:30                                       ` Eddie Chapman
2023-09-14 16:09                                         ` Alex Boag-Munroe
2023-09-14 16:50                                           ` Eddie Chapman
2023-09-14 17:18                                             ` Alex Boag-Munroe
2023-09-14 18:39                                               ` Alexe Stefan
2023-09-14 19:11                                                 ` Alex Boag-Munroe
2023-09-14 17:27                                             ` Rich Freeman
2023-09-14 17:39                                               ` Eddie Chapman
2023-09-14 17:52                                                 ` Alex Boag-Munroe
2023-09-14 17:57                                                 ` Rich Freeman
2023-09-14 23:19                                                 ` Arsen Arsenović
2023-09-15 15:10                                                   ` orbea
2023-09-15 18:38                                                     ` Alexey Sokolov
2023-09-15 18:56                                                       ` orbea
2023-09-15 22:25                                                         ` Arsen Arsenović
2023-09-15 22:40                                                   ` orbea
2023-09-16  1:12                                                     ` Arsen Arsenović
2023-09-16  9:35                                                     ` David Seifert
2023-09-16 13:32                                                       ` Alexe Stefan
2023-09-16 22:03                                                         ` Arsen Arsenović
2023-09-17  9:00                                                           ` Alexe Stefan
2023-09-17 10:16                                                             ` Arsen Arsenović
2023-09-17 17:56                                                               ` Alexe Stefan
2023-09-17 18:38                                                                 ` Arsen Arsenović
2023-09-14 17:20                                       ` Eddie Chapman
2023-09-14 17:28                                         ` Alex Boag-Munroe
2023-09-14 17:51                                           ` Eddie Chapman
2023-09-14 17:19                                     ` Matt Turner
2023-09-14 17:24                                       ` Eddie Chapman
2023-09-13  2:55                             ` Eli Schwartz
2023-09-13  9:05                               ` Eddie Chapman
2023-09-13  9:34                                 ` Alexe Stefan
2023-09-13  9:43                                   ` Alex Boag-Munroe
2023-09-13 21:57                                   ` Arsen Arsenović
2023-09-12 14:31                     ` martin-kokos
2023-09-12 15:00                       ` Eddie Chapman
2023-09-12 15:20                         ` Sam James
2023-09-13  1:23 Alex Boag-Munroe
2023-09-13  1:48 ` Alex Boag-Munroe

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