From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E3661381F3 for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 16:21:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B4ED6E0997; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 16:21:35 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-ie0-f179.google.com (mail-ie0-f179.google.com [209.85.223.179]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AAA59E0962 for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 16:21:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-ie0-f179.google.com with SMTP id c10so24225273ieb.24 for ; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 09:21:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=dh5ECiuD8rppY5LrB5cGj0fHmvfwiKlHBpg5RMU1Lqw=; b=Y6dWFnjiMnKw7fAQHkzRDvisIlwrtNe74pUhCq8r2THSNY8KGaGCltGk/zMhfJlImS 3IYKmeLv6BSqsDTTjnQQGST5xbaQDS7YXPwEefxTSvwZF6CjxrVv6hs/kmXrb2imIc2r g3m/RiyQg0JQ89O5UqDRbsEKKdWu0FXCgJXjsSe7qVZ1Ms0jYMEbcT+6091OKCj4xGnN YZ/YiafbnC3OEAJ97b9rSXU3jnljDl5KdfiaPhPloKPLpKPdPG5GEbyKkTjjCg9tycJO /YrUwaipwiWSOpVoWMFV0ot1FfC59VJyGrGuFDG1EkBDuCp45aWxGx61aetbAjS3Z5/H foSA== Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.42.11.211 with SMTP id v19mr11650660icv.29.1372090893737; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 09:21:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.64.42.8 with HTTP; Mon, 24 Jun 2013 09:21:33 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20130624154323.GA101492@skade.schwarzvogel.de> References: <51C7D073.3010703@smash-net.org> <20130624154323.GA101492@skade.schwarzvogel.de> Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2013 17:21:33 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Hangouts From: =?UTF-8?Q?Diego_Elio_Petten=C3=B2?= To: =?UTF-8?Q?Diego_Elio_Petten=C3=B2?= , "gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf301d3e6052522904dfe8ce7b X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQl6Lr97dYVc1FjuE3qH8GJG24dOa/3Q5Bi8k3PjmVhjOK1/prLLjStsrJ38JGy4FLk2watZ X-Archives-Salt: 843055df-76c8-4919-9e25-f213798c2078 X-Archives-Hash: 48441048932d8af8206f4378e8fead18 --20cf301d3e6052522904dfe8ce7b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 4:43 PM, Tobias Klausmann wrot= e: > > It depends how you run it. We have teams having a video thing > open during the day with there geographically-diverse other team > members and it works well for them. For those teams, it also > improves cohesion. Geographically-diverse teams always have to > actively fight the us-vs-them vibe that seems to be fundamental > human nature. Aforementioned video link is part of that. > Sure, but first of all these are private meetings, and not public ones. Even more, they are meetings private to the company, and not even with customers. You can tell that the response to a public vs private meeting is definitely different. I've witnessed before people trying go show off even more just because a camera is involved, which can be obnoxious, in my opinion. > > And unlike IRC meetings, you can cannot multitask, say making > > your dinner while discussing this or that feature. > > As others have pointed out, this is a double edged sword: > Sometimes, having less distraction (or getting away with less > distraction) is a Good Thing. > Yeah sure if you can afford it. One thing that people seem to miss is that Gentoo is _not_ an employment. And while we'd like to keep professional behaviour, the system of incentives and disincentives that work for an employment position do not apply to organizations like Gentoo. > > > A VC is a full commitment, and its attractiveness is often much > > higher _before_ you use it.. > > This does not hold true for me. I'd never used VC before joining > my current company, and I love it -- iff the alternative is not > meeting at all or text-only. As I pointed out above, it is > crucial for team cohesion. > Sure and in some ways it's a least worst option. On the other hand you and I both know that it's not as easy as saying "okay let's all meet at 7" =E2= =80=94 timezones, hardware issues, connection issues, you name it. We sidestep most of these issues as the various problems have been ironed out before.. but to start doing "regular" hangouts between Gentoo teams? It's going to involve lots of work. > If you want to have a distincly productive meeting, you need an > agenda/goals and someone to _run_ the meeeting. But that is true > of IRC meetings, too. > > About the only thing that IRC meetings are invariably better at, > is logging. Note, however, that logging is no replacment for > agendas or summarizing the outcome of the meeting. > On the other hand, I would be _very_ much against using Hangouts for anything that involves decision-making or explanation of future planning, for the very reasons I originally pointed out: * they require too much time set aside (I can't even lurk a Hangout if I'm cooking, or working, or my phone only knows what); * they are not for everyone (English is not universal as we'd wish it is = =E2=80=94 if it wasn't for last year's experience, I wouldn't want speaking English in public; William also pointed out another reason); * I don't expect a great signal to noise, not only at the beginning but throughout: try to imagine an unmoderated IRC channel being spoken aloud, then add a bunch of "can you hear/see me?" from every other participant, the "what did you say? I can't understand you" and so on so forth. Honestly, I see as much potential to cause further issues in a team as there is to solve them. --20cf301d3e6052522904dfe8ce7b Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

= On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 4:43 PM, Tobias Klausmann <klausman@gentoo.org> wrote:
It depends how you run it. We have teams having a video thing
open during the day with there geographically-diverse other team
members and it works well for them. For those teams, it also
improves cohesion. Geographically-diverse teams always have to
actively fight the us-vs-them vibe that seems to be fundamental
human nature. Aforementioned video link is part of that.

=C2=A0
> And unlike IRC meetings, you can cannot multitask, say making
> your dinner while discussing this or that feature.

As others have pointed out, this is a double edged sword:
Sometimes, having less distraction (or getting away with less
distraction) is a Good Thing.

Yea= h sure if you can afford it. One thing that people seem to miss is that Gen= too is _not_ an employment. And while we'd like to keep professional be= haviour, the system of incentives and disincentives that work for an employ= ment position do not apply to organizations like Gentoo.
=C2=A0

> A VC is a full commitment, and its attractiveness is often much
> higher _before_ you use it..

This does not hold true for me. I'd never used VC before joining<= br> my current company, and I love it -- iff the alternative is not
meeting at all or text-only. As I pointed out above, it is
crucial for team cohesion.

Sure a= nd in some ways it's a least worst option. On the other hand you and I = both know that it's not as easy as saying "okay let's all meet= at 7" =E2=80=94 timezones, hardware issues, connection issues, you na= me it. We sidestep most of these issues as the various problems have been i= roned out before.. but to start doing "regular" hangouts between = Gentoo teams? It's going to involve lots of work.
=C2=A0
If you want to have a distincly productive meeting, you need an
agenda/goals and someone to _run_ the meeeting. But that is true
of IRC meetings, too.

About the only thing that IRC meetings are invariably better at,
is logging. Note, however, that logging is no replacment for
agendas or summarizing the outcome of the meeting.
On the other hand, I would be _very_ much against using H= angouts for anything that involves decision-making or explanation of future= planning, for the very reasons I originally pointed out:

=C2=A0* they require too much time set asid= e (I can't even lurk a Hangout if I'm cooking, or working, or my ph= one only knows what);
=C2=A0* they are not for everyone (En= glish is not universal as we'd wish it is =E2=80=94 if it wasn't fo= r last year's experience, I wouldn't want speaking English in publi= c; William also pointed out another reason);
=C2=A0* I don't expect a great signal to noise, not only at = the beginning but throughout: try to imagine an unmoderated IRC channel bei= ng spoken aloud, then add a bunch of "can you hear/see me?" from = every other participant, the "what did you say? I can't understand= you" and so on so forth.

Honestly, I see as much potential to cause = further issues in a team as there is to solve them.

=C2=A0
--20cf301d3e6052522904dfe8ce7b--