From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CB7A58973 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2016 17:58:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id ADE1B21C088; Wed, 10 Feb 2016 17:58:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-ig0-f180.google.com (mail-ig0-f180.google.com [209.85.213.180]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B369821C01F for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2016 17:58:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-ig0-f180.google.com with SMTP id mw1so19536854igb.1 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2016 09:58:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=ZSVxSisnLKs2AGG9lPgGeSm30oICVs3FdwUo4qqA+NA=; b=WWVgAvf37mYuIytoI3PXAKZuhHg22FP7ol8vTlLSnqHA/c9KGqdSkQulCN83kCjO/2 aST3ARfN4YA7LjcbU46Qzd8jvR6OHROtXQ8QqWiJNJrD4wWMNt+LfBetkL0Ql1dhtC3p igVkSQDDPWTl8I9QXmxX3zHshrfB2ZOoJl7ra0gYnQpTcAg6+/O9RGXRZWIBJBossdKl EuswMyTqwEnYpo5KlSe2uZw6ribEr49/mhJXyC4MuZwtIUC+FuV1DtRGM9MgFKRyUBJY 5V4ZM/HzjgnyKq6yulpWGvSxhFe4Z+x4vsd9lUc48fTbOzBwQYGU2DJIYqst+m6u+WWf 0xGw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=ZSVxSisnLKs2AGG9lPgGeSm30oICVs3FdwUo4qqA+NA=; b=co63H5jb6MIWWBA0/thptiC7NiuI5ARBvFOMIeZzprv7Z8ZFYBaPD2CTER8J7qnJAt 2AX5HE9U34rRMU2Md779rD8/uprnWaN++2DHRhWfUUe5pd4tyP2zVYE4Ti68ST1Av8JT c2JepaSjQFkLc+nYSak0e3w9IAfsdpmdtg302jBtU94P9+13PxiGraeeW1vtkmWzQ+pW Qwa/btiYOk/MfQ83U1L0+N3s34e4gP/KrWdoA+fLSsCVqwH1+zD1snv4L+Hk/TELVzxC qZCrLIlvhTHicTSqYd+PsJc2M7MSxPUb90SrqnbxZB9GvUxwtAQuJQuTxOdhm3rsxHuR 2rWQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AG10YOSJ1aUckx0UpWhVPYqqGonnLdy0wt5lYKkri2/HkB2AmT8M5TxVoLNr2/wgJqvOH4Y8XxNASn0RBFAUJw== Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.73.102 with SMTP id k6mr10462898igv.97.1455127106891; Wed, 10 Feb 2016 09:58:26 -0800 (PST) Sender: freemanrich@gmail.com Received: by 10.64.225.228 with HTTP; Wed, 10 Feb 2016 09:58:26 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <56BB752E.2060609@gentoo.org> References: <56B85B06.7020500@gentoo.org> <56B936DB.1010407@gentoo.org> <56B939C4.20804@gentoo.org> <56B9E454.1010609@gentoo.org> <56BB752E.2060609@gentoo.org> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2016 12:58:26 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: ZExvr0nAtD2vUX30TJ-Mu8oXFEI Message-ID: Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] The Beauty of Unix From: Rich Freeman To: gentoo-dev Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Archives-Salt: b5f58d9e-addd-443a-8e5f-6b2d5dbb8d94 X-Archives-Hash: 911efbf118ae06132b5ef26dedbe35fc On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 12:36 PM, Paul Varner wrote: > On 2/9/16 7:44 AM, Rich Freeman wrote: >> >> I thought the whole beauty of unix was the everything-is-a-file design? > > No, the beauty of Unix has always been the architectural philosophy of > loose-coupling of the components of the system. > The "everything is a file" is a result of that philosophy. The end result > of this is that you can switch out components of the system without > redesigning other aspects of the system. That is the philosophy that allows > Gentoo to exist as meta-distribution and to provide choice for what you > want. While I agree with much of that, keep in mind that strictly avoiding loose coupling is a decision that actually denies some choices. Strong coupling between my service manager and cron implementation means that I can set one configuration option and have it apply to everything, or have a common syntax across them. Having it all tie into kdbus means a simpler interface design for all of it. I think this can be carried too far, and I don't use the full systemd family for everything I do. However, when I find that it makes sense to use various systemd components together there are a lot of benefits from the tight coupling. And we already accept this in other parts of the system, the kernel being the most obvious. You can't use one implementation of /proc and a different implementation of /sys, and use zfs from FreeBSD seamlessly on the same system (I'm not saying you can't port all of those into the same codebase - just as you could probably port eudev into systemd if you wanted to fork them both). My point was that providing common interfaces to system services was actually a big part of the unix appeal. It hasn't fully kept up, and I think somebody already mentioned Plan 9 in the thread. I'm not really sure I want my window manager to be part of the kernel, even if it is a microkernel, and there will always be another layer of abstraction. But, the goal is still a good one, and of course with Gentoo you have the choice not to use it (though it may become a harder one to sustain if some of the various upstreams wither away) -- Rich