From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C62821382C5 for ; Wed, 21 Mar 2018 11:07:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id ABD3AE090E; Wed, 21 Mar 2018 11:07:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-pl0-x233.google.com (mail-pl0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 38309E08FB for ; Wed, 21 Mar 2018 11:07:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pl0-x233.google.com with SMTP id c11-v6so2908403plo.0 for ; Wed, 21 Mar 2018 04:07:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to; bh=+sUxtsKOMmp0RQvTkBUPd8lS2iyQUxbBj9xYeUPVM4Y=; b=okDa3LRdx/ujPvA/KpjhkfRxvXMXPwlCnaLbQ2ReLnHoklsmF3f/4oVDGs/RNbLF6U x3CZKFkTwvc0Fu0NlJXnK6vHWNbv2lenKkEojnhhFNY0tH6xeNIslsoTCKnxCeFN4beL 6cbkTvCUQdht09Jgjvynm/60Xb6cnbLFwOUZlilEQRrmt7AMFLceDLjLQxp3Z4UlZSaX p8knlF2fWgoe4NUOvmyYepoV2Gp1mrQcLXQd5tm4+J7DXBuexmOrXA8jl0/9lkmg5hEk 7q2nLyxbmdksF8xcSarTuR+vH6WDEHGl+G004pdT7DqrMFJD29ugwj3hZeoEUE7ghDtL KAVA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to; bh=+sUxtsKOMmp0RQvTkBUPd8lS2iyQUxbBj9xYeUPVM4Y=; b=DAZ/cSXVGo1VAOzC9lbOb+5IfB/pyugsUlBWszjqu0uTQ2IILM2GGh+Ev5ENxsk7MM zRXTWpoKImszsVZWJbbSsKLGSSk9mbS/qlTbrqj3S7cgk2dW7BCqf/NWsBVCEdJTdcnm R/gsW+WrRS2M+Df/0mWqQBAVsbQ+fXKItr1dGz3w7p/sP727FT196IuzPtJaZDK28ujJ lYjgJBr85+e+amA0Irb2BVaIVMlAzRB1EwNmhF8SGsvBZ47BVaGgfYg9CxCMHwP738+D RzRX6DrPob1SsdgU9zQS7pMFni04887lswLymaVbv5aHE3qWteouvMN2pQ/M4k5kxzFC HmPg== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7FSaKbKv25mdjEpIx2LuRkESQTfTdfzQLLvfltFDf1jPRGqpCTt gb82z5nq2ASWnnVEseUXOXTAEObVoorn8AZcx2eBLLw7 X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELt70pfZAWH5g7Nx5InztmLW7/mfwDHtSj6HRbA2HiFCKeageo/m+3PaXNbNoCaiTmnyvuAMmvQOqS74PXIfvzc= X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:341:: with SMTP id 59-v6mr19710062pld.407.1521630456564; Wed, 21 Mar 2018 04:07:36 -0700 (PDT) Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: freemanrich@gmail.com Received: by 10.236.174.22 with HTTP; Wed, 21 Mar 2018 04:07:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20180321053601.GA4705@angelfall.a21an.org> References: <4aab96fa-0edb-6a28-791e-28e2103f2a30@gentoo.org> <20180320152848.2uzqzvotaqk5hlnm@gentoo.org> <20180321053601.GA4705@angelfall.a21an.org> From: Rich Freeman Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2018 07:07:35 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: u-gW1xx5FhLitc-jDTnjioJjq8A Message-ID: Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] Mailing list moderation and community openness To: gentoo-dev Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Archives-Salt: 96f4b1dc-4054-4eff-a8d2-88cb166eca72 X-Archives-Hash: d5a9536b01cf64c56fdd9130d3fc27ab On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 1:36 AM, Eray Aslan wrote: > On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 10:28:48AM -0500, Matthew Thode wrote: >> While I personally do no agree with mailing list moderation infra has >> been tasked with moving forward on it. > > That was a somewhat tongue-in-cheek comment but not wholly. You cant > cop out by saying it was an order from council. I understand if you > dont but do consider it. Fight the good fight. Interesting. When exactly should we all start ignoring the Council, and when should we do what they say? And what is the likely result of that? For all the complaining of "cabals" in Gentoo it seems odd to suggest putting the final decisions of the one group that is about the least democratic in the organization. (That isn't really intended as a criticism: there are a lot of practical reasons why infra operates as it does and I've yet to come up with any better approach. With the council/trustees the authority comes from the collective, and nobody would pay attention to a directive that didn't have a majority backing or the appearance of due process. With any other project the decisions are appealable to council. With infra one guy with the root password can cause a lot of havoc, and the computer isn't going to stop and question what they're doing. That creates a lot of incentive to minimize the number of people who are trusted. In any case, I think it makes the most sense to do the decision-making in more open/democratic processes, and then minimize the execution footprint that requires "cabals.") As I've commented elsewhere [1] I think an issue here is that we just don't have enough of a critical mass to be able to afford to split along ideological lines. The set of developers interested in a source-based distro is barely sufficient to create a viable source-based distro. If you split it into the subsets who prefer open vs closed mailing lists on top of this then the individual groups lack critical mass. And so we're forced to co-exist, and agree on one or the other, or some kind of compromise. 1 - https://rich0gentoo.wordpress.com/2016/02/27/gentoo-ought-to-be-about-choice/ -- Rich