[gentoo-dev] New install isos needed

[gentoo-dev] New install isos needed

[Pacho Ramos]

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Today I tried to boot latest install ISO (from January) and hit this
bug:
https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=455924

This breaks a lot of hardware requiring firmwares (like some wireless
drivers)

Could a new ISO set be released?

Thanks

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Re: [gentoo-dev] New install isos needed

[Rick "Zero_Chaos" Farina]

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Hash: SHA1

On 03/23/2013 02:06 PM, Pacho Ramos wrote:
> Today I tried to boot latest install ISO (from January) and hit this
> bug:
> https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=455924
> 
> This breaks a lot of hardware requiring firmwares (like some wireless
> drivers)
> 
> Could a new ISO set be released?

Based on my recent testing it seems that amd64 builds are working
properly, however, the x86 ones are still missing firmware. no idea how
that is happening, maybe it's just me.

$0.02

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Re: [gentoo-dev] New install isos needed

[Markos Chandras]

On 23 March 2013 18:06, Pacho Ramos <pacho@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Today I tried to boot latest install ISO (from January) and hit this
> bug:
> https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=455924
>
> This breaks a lot of hardware requiring firmwares (like some wireless
> drivers)
>
> Could a new ISO set be released?
>
> Thanks

I do have a feeling that the quality of our ISOs has degraded over the
last year. I've seen too many bugs about our installation media.
In the past I asked what it takes to become part of the releng team
and I was told that the process if fully automated so no more people
are needed which
seems a bit contradictory to what we observe lately.

-- 
Regards,
Markos Chandras - Gentoo Linux Developer
http://dev.gentoo.org/~hwoarang

Re: [gentoo-dev] New install isos needed

[Pacho Ramos]

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El sáb, 23-03-2013 a las 14:40 -0400, Rick "Zero_Chaos" Farina escribió:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> On 03/23/2013 02:06 PM, Pacho Ramos wrote:
> > Today I tried to boot latest install ISO (from January) and hit this
> > bug:
> > https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=455924
> > 
> > This breaks a lot of hardware requiring firmwares (like some wireless
> > drivers)
> > 
> > Could a new ISO set be released?
> 
> Based on my recent testing it seems that amd64 builds are working
> properly, however, the x86 ones are still missing firmware. no idea how
> that is happening, maybe it's just me.
> 
> $0.02

I have tried this morning install-amd64-minimal-20130110.iso (the last
version offered) and it is affected by that bug report :/

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Re: [gentoo-dev] New install isos needed

[Rick "Zero_Chaos" Farina]

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Hash: SHA1

On 03/23/2013 02:50 PM, Pacho Ramos wrote:
> El sáb, 23-03-2013 a las 14:40 -0400, Rick "Zero_Chaos" Farina escribió:
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> On 03/23/2013 02:06 PM, Pacho Ramos wrote:
>>> Today I tried to boot latest install ISO (from January) and hit this
>>> bug:
>>> https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=455924
>>>
>>> This breaks a lot of hardware requiring firmwares (like some wireless
>>> drivers)
>>>
>>> Could a new ISO set be released?
>>
>> Based on my recent testing it seems that amd64 builds are working
>> properly, however, the x86 ones are still missing firmware. no idea how
>> that is happening, maybe it's just me.
>>
>> $0.02
> 
> I have tried this morning install-amd64-minimal-20130110.iso (the last
> version offered) and it is affected by that bug report :/
> 

yes but that was months ago.  I don't know why the autobuilds are
currently failing but my personal builds have this bug in 32 bit but not
in 64 bit (ever since we fixed this bug weeks ago)

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Re: [gentoo-dev] New install isos needed

[Michael Orlitzky]

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Hash: SHA1

On 03/23/2013 02:50 PM, Pacho Ramos wrote:
> El sáb, 23-03-2013 a las 14:40 -0400, Rick "Zero_Chaos" Farina
> escribió:
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
>> 
>> On 03/23/2013 02:06 PM, Pacho Ramos wrote:
>>> Today I tried to boot latest install ISO (from January) and hit
>>> this bug: https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=455924
>>> 
>>> This breaks a lot of hardware requiring firmwares (like some
>>> wireless drivers)
>>> 
>>> Could a new ISO set be released?
>> 
>> Based on my recent testing it seems that amd64 builds are
>> working properly, however, the x86 ones are still missing
>> firmware. no idea how that is happening, maybe it's just me.
>> 
>> $0.02
> 
> I have tried this morning install-amd64-minimal-20130110.iso (the
> last version offered) and it is affected by that bug report :/
> 

See also:

  https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=377865

The installation media has been totally useless on a large bit of
hardware for over three months. We should just suggest SystemRescueCD
if no one can be bothered to make Gentoo installable.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] New install isos needed

[Andreas K. Huettel]

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Am Samstag, 23. März 2013, 21:11:14 schrieb Michael Orlitzky:
> 
> The installation media has been totally useless on a large bit of
> hardware for over three months. We should just suggest SystemRescueCD
> if no one can be bothered to make Gentoo installable.

While that sounds harsh, it also sounds true. I've had my shares of trouble 
with the minimal isos in the past too and at some point just gave up on them.

We're a fast-moving distribution, and it seems the installation media do not 
keep up.

Why not officially recommend SystemRescueCD instead?

-- 

Andreas K. Huettel
Gentoo Linux developer 
dilfridge@gentoo.org
http://www.akhuettel.de/


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Re: [gentoo-dev] New install isos needed

[Markos Chandras]

On 23 March 2013 20:28, Andreas K. Huettel <dilfridge@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Am Samstag, 23. März 2013, 21:11:14 schrieb Michael Orlitzky:
>>
>> The installation media has been totally useless on a large bit of
>> hardware for over three months. We should just suggest SystemRescueCD
>> if no one can be bothered to make Gentoo installable.
>
> While that sounds harsh, it also sounds true. I've had my shares of trouble
> with the minimal isos in the past too and at some point just gave up on them.
>
> We're a fast-moving distribution, and it seems the installation media do not
> keep up.
>
> Why not officially recommend SystemRescueCD instead?
>
> --
>
> Andreas K. Huettel
> Gentoo Linux developer
> dilfridge@gentoo.org
> http://www.akhuettel.de/
>

Looks really bad to recommend another installation media (even if it
is based on Gentoo) to people who want
to install our distro. I'd rather Gentoo recommended the live DVDs we
do from time to time than having these autobuilds around
that seem to break far too often.

-- 
Regards,
Markos Chandras - Gentoo Linux Developer
http://dev.gentoo.org/~hwoarang

Re: [gentoo-dev] New install isos needed

[Pacho Ramos]

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El sáb, 23-03-2013 a las 21:28 +0100, Andreas K. Huettel escribió:
> Am Samstag, 23. März 2013, 21:11:14 schrieb Michael Orlitzky:
> > 
> > The installation media has been totally useless on a large bit of
> > hardware for over three months. We should just suggest SystemRescueCD
> > if no one can be bothered to make Gentoo installable.
> 
> While that sounds harsh, it also sounds true. I've had my shares of trouble 
> with the minimal isos in the past too and at some point just gave up on them.
> 
> We're a fast-moving distribution, and it seems the installation media do not 
> keep up.
> 
> Why not officially recommend SystemRescueCD instead?
> 

Why is this firmware bug unresolved for so long time? :/, that sounds
really surprising to me :|

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Re: [gentoo-dev] New install isos needed

[Robin H. Johnson]

On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 06:42:14PM +0000, Markos Chandras wrote:
> I do have a feeling that the quality of our ISOs has degraded over the
> last year. I've seen too many bugs about our installation media.
> In the past I asked what it takes to become part of the releng team
> and I was told that the process if fully automated so no more people
> are needed which
> seems a bit contradictory to what we observe lately.
The process itself to build the official ISO is automated, but somebody
needs to read & understand the build failures, and fix them in the tree.

-- 
Robin Hugh Johnson
Gentoo Linux: Developer, Trustee & Infrastructure Lead
E-Mail     : robbat2@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP   : 11ACBA4F 4778E3F6 E4EDF38E B27B944E 34884E85

Re: [gentoo-dev] New install isos needed

[Andreas K. Huettel]

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Am Samstag, 23. März 2013, 21:40:16 schrieb Markos Chandras:
> > Why not officially recommend SystemRescueCD instead?
> > 
> Looks really bad to recommend another installation media (even if it
> is based on Gentoo) to people who want
> to install our distro. I'd rather Gentoo recommended the live DVDs we
> do from time to time than having these autobuilds around
> that seem to break far too often.

Except for the fact that downloading a DVD is slightly different from 
downloading a CD...

Seriously. SystemRescueCD is more or less exactly what we would need. Has 
anyone ever approached the SystemRescueCD developers?

-- 

Andreas K. Huettel
Gentoo Linux developer 
dilfridge@gentoo.org
http://www.akhuettel.de/


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Re: [gentoo-dev] New install isos needed

[Dale]

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Andreas K. Huettel wrote:
> Am Samstag, 23. März 2013, 21:40:16 schrieb Markos Chandras:
>>> Why not officially recommend SystemRescueCD instead?
>>>
>> Looks really bad to recommend another installation media (even if it
>> is based on Gentoo) to people who want
>> to install our distro. I'd rather Gentoo recommended the live DVDs we
>> do from time to time than having these autobuilds around
>> that seem to break far too often.
>
> Except for the fact that downloading a DVD is slightly different from
> downloading a CD...
>
> Seriously. SystemRescueCD is more or less exactly what we would need. Has
> anyone ever approached the SystemRescueCD developers?
>

I must confess, I have not used the official Gentoo ISOs in ages.  I use
the SystemRescueCD from a USB stick all the time.  I update it regularly
as well.  Speaking of, I need to update again.  I stopped using it
because I was always having either one trouble or another.

Dale

:-)  :-)

-- 
I am only responsible for what I said ... Not for what you understood or
how you interpreted my words!


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Re: [gentoo-dev] New install isos needed

[Ben de Groot]

On 24 March 2013 09:17, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
> Andreas K. Huettel wrote:
>> Am Samstag, 23. März 2013, 21:40:16 schrieb Markos Chandras:
>>>> Why not officially recommend SystemRescueCD instead?
>>>>
>>> Looks really bad to recommend another installation media (even if it
>>> is based on Gentoo) to people who want
>>> to install our distro. I'd rather Gentoo recommended the live DVDs we
>>> do from time to time than having these autobuilds around
>>> that seem to break far too often.
>>
>> Except for the fact that downloading a DVD is slightly different from
>> downloading a CD...
>>
>> Seriously. SystemRescueCD is more or less exactly what we would need. Has
>> anyone ever approached the SystemRescueCD developers?
>>
>
> I must confess, I have not used the official Gentoo ISOs in ages.  I use the
> SystemRescueCD from a USB stick all the time.

Me too. Our minimal CD is too minimal for my tastes (no X, no GUI
browser for documentation), and our DVD too heavy. SystemRescueCD
seems to hit the sweet spot.

Maybe we could do a co-branded edition once in a while?

-- 
Cheers,

Ben | yngwin
Gentoo developer
Gentoo Qt project lead, Gentoo Wiki admin

Re: [gentoo-dev] New install isos needed

[Philip Webb]

130324 Ben de Groot wrote:
> On 24 March 2013 09:17, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Andreas K. Huettel wrote:
>>> Seriously. SystemRescueCD is more or less exactly what we would need.
>> I must confess, I have not used the official Gentoo ISOs in ages.
>> I use the SystemRescueCD from a USB stick all the time.
> Me too. Our minimal CD is too minimal for my tastes

For my latest install 2012-09 I used SRCD + Stage3 + Portage-latest.
SRCD has all the tools anyone might need.

> Maybe we could do a co-branded edition once in a while?

That wb an excellent come-on to get new people to try Gentoo.

-- 
========================,,============================================
SUPPORT     ___________//___,   Philip Webb
ELECTRIC   /] [] [] [] [] []|   Cities Centre, University of Toronto
TRANSIT    `-O----------O---'   purslowatchassdotutorontodotca

Re: [gentoo-dev] New install isos needed

[Samuli Suominen]

On 24/03/13 06:30, Ben de Groot wrote:
> On 24 March 2013 09:17, Dale <rdalek1967@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Andreas K. Huettel wrote:
>>> Am Samstag, 23. März 2013, 21:40:16 schrieb Markos Chandras:
>>>>> Why not officially recommend SystemRescueCD instead?
>>>>>
>>>> Looks really bad to recommend another installation media (even if it
>>>> is based on Gentoo) to people who want
>>>> to install our distro. I'd rather Gentoo recommended the live DVDs we
>>>> do from time to time than having these autobuilds around
>>>> that seem to break far too often.
>>>
>>> Except for the fact that downloading a DVD is slightly different from
>>> downloading a CD...
>>>
>>> Seriously. SystemRescueCD is more or less exactly what we would need. Has
>>> anyone ever approached the SystemRescueCD developers?
>>>
>>
>> I must confess, I have not used the official Gentoo ISOs in ages.  I use the
>> SystemRescueCD from a USB stick all the time.
>
> Me too. Our minimal CD is too minimal for my tastes (no X, no GUI
> browser for documentation), and our DVD too heavy. SystemRescueCD
> seems to hit the sweet spot.
>
> Maybe we could do a co-branded edition once in a while?
>

likewise, either sysrescuecd (OR ubuntu's livecd for networkmanager to 
get ppp0 up and running)

i don't mind configuring ppp0 after installation, but during 
installation it is an major obstacle

imho we should contact the sysrescuecd developers and suggest more close 
cooperation, such that it could be called official install
media in gentoo-terms

Re: [gentoo-dev] New install isos needed

[Walter Dnes]

On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 04:11:14PM -0400, Michael Orlitzky wrote
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> On 03/23/2013 02:50 PM, Pacho Ramos wrote:
> > El sáb, 23-03-2013 a las 14:40 -0400, Rick "Zero_Chaos" Farina
> > escribió:
> >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
> >> 
> >> On 03/23/2013 02:06 PM, Pacho Ramos wrote:
> >>> Today I tried to boot latest install ISO (from January) and hit
> >>> this bug: https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=455924
> >>> 
> >>> This breaks a lot of hardware requiring firmwares (like some
> >>> wireless drivers)
> >>> 
> >>> Could a new ISO set be released?
> >> 
> >> Based on my recent testing it seems that amd64 builds are
> >> working properly, however, the x86 ones are still missing
> >> firmware. no idea how that is happening, maybe it's just me.
> >> 
> >> $0.02
> > 
> > I have tried this morning install-amd64-minimal-20130110.iso (the
> > last version offered) and it is affected by that bug report :/
> > 
> 
> See also:
> 
>   https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=377865
> 
> The installation media has been totally useless on a large bit of
> hardware for over three months. We should just suggest SystemRescueCD
> if no one can be bothered to make Gentoo installable.

  The net-setup utility on the install seems to have problems with
anything out of the ordinary. e.g.
https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=447110  I an issue, too.  I took
the minimal install CD and ran isohybrid on it.  My netbook doesn't have
a CD or DVD drive, so I *HAVE TO* use a USB stick.  I tried to set up my
netbook as...

IP address 192.168.123.252
netmask 255.255.255.248 (YES!)
broadcast 192.168.123.255
default gateway 192.168.123.254

  It failed, and I ended up with an address in the 169.254.xxx.xxx
range.  Typing in the manual "ifconfig" and "route" commands worked, so
I went on and ignored the problem.  A newer Gentoo user, e.g. me a few
years ago, might have given up.

-- 
Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>
I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications

[gentoo-dev] Re: New install isos needed

[Duncan]

Samuli Suominen posted on Sun, 24 Mar 2013 09:32:22 +0200 as excerpted:

> imho we should contact the sysrescuecd developers and suggest more close
> cooperation, such that it could be called official install media in
> gentoo-terms

I've wondered for years why gentoo invests all that effort into creating 
its own install media, when there's many dedicated projects out there 
whose whole purpose is live install/rescue media.  It has always seemed 
to me that we'd be better off simply using one of them and saving the 
effort for something closer to our core competency/mission.

Yes, there's some pride in being able to say we're self-hosting.  But is 
it /really/ worth it?  To me personally, the answer has always been no.

But gentoo, like most volunteer projects, is very much a "scratch your 
own itch" type of thing.  As long as there's gentoo devs with that 
itch... but /is/ there, any more?

And given that sysrescuecd is gentoo-based, there's a good argument to be 
made that having it as it our official install media isn't giving up on 
self-hosting at all.  In fact, by declaring it our official installer 
even as we recognize its independent place in the larger FLOSS community, 
we're recognizing its value and importance not only to us, but to the 
larger community of which we are a part.

Thus definitely ++.

The one big concern I have is that in our approach to the srcd folks we 
make clear we're *NOT* attempting to take over their project.  That's the 
sensitivity I see with the co-branded idea.  I'd actually prefer that we 
NOT do a co-branded thing, unless the srcd folks suggest it (this assumes 
yngwin's not srcd upstream and thus did indeed just make that offer, I 
don't know), and simply cooperate a bit more with them, filing bugs (and 
as their upstream fixing them in gentoo where possible), helping to fix 
the ppp networking config issues already mentioned, etc, while simply 
using their releases as they are.  If we want to point out that they're a 
gentoo-based project that we happily endorse in our handbook links to 
them, great, but I'm afraid a co-branded suggestion from our side might 
come across as an attempt to take over, and that'd benefit absolutely no 
one! 

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: New install isos needed

[Rich Freeman]

On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 5:05 AM, Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net> wrote:
> I've wondered for years why gentoo invests all that effort into creating
> its own install media, when there's many dedicated projects out there
> whose whole purpose is live install/rescue media.

Tend to agree.  I'd focus more on keeping stage3s up-to-date.  After
we perform fairly significant system package changes (the kind that
involve news items) there is a tendency for stage3s to take even weeks
on some occasions to get updated.  That means that the first
experience of a new Gentoo user is to get to do a udev migration,
resolve blocks, read news items, or whatever.

Ideally these big changes should be coordinated with releng, but maybe
that isn't realistic.  Our stage3s should still catch up reasonably
quickly.

I haven't run my gentoo bootstrap scripts, but as of a few weeks ago
the x86 one was still having to manually uninstall module-init-tools.
That may be fixed now, but in general it has been my observation that
automated builds of complex Gentoo systems (kde, gnome with desktop
profiles) tend to fail more often than not due to one problem or
another.  Ideally it should just involve setting the appropriate
profile and emerging the appropriate meta-package.  In practice you
have to set a few USE flags as well (which for whatever reason the
profile doesn't set).  However, much of the time you end up having to
fix missed dep keywords, blockers, etc.  I do try to log these issues
when I spot them, but haven't generally done this if the issue is
simply that the stage3 is a few weeks old (I don't mind doing that,
but I suspect it won't really be anything releng isn't already aware
of).

For an educational experience unpack a stage3 in a chroot and try to
emerge kde or gnome.  Then try it again two weeks later.  This is what
our new users experience.

Rich

Re: [gentoo-dev] New install isos needed

[Alexander Berntsen]

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Making an install ISO is as pointless as writing a CMS for
Gentoo.org... Gentoo should only bother if it is really necessary.

ZSH-related bugs fixed ? Link SystemRescueCD : Link something else
- -- 
Alexander
alexander@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: New install isos needed

[Andreas K. Huettel]

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Am Sonntag, 24. März 2013, 10:05:54 schrieb Duncan:
> Thus definitely ++.
> 
> The one big concern I have is that in our approach to the srcd folks we
> make clear we're *NOT* attempting to take over their project.  That's the
> sensitivity I see with the co-branded idea.  I'd actually prefer that we
> NOT do a co-branded thing, unless the srcd folks suggest it (this assumes
> yngwin's not srcd upstream and thus did indeed just make that offer, I
> don't know), and simply cooperate a bit more with them, filing bugs (and
> as their upstream fixing them in gentoo where possible), helping to fix
> the ppp networking config issues already mentioned, etc, while simply
> using their releases as they are.  If we want to point out that they're a
> gentoo-based project that we happily endorse in our handbook links to
> them, great, but I'm afraid a co-branded suggestion from our side might
> come across as an attempt to take over, and that'd benefit absolutely no
> one!

+1

They are doing a great job, and we should acknowledge that, talk to them but 
not interfere.

First of all this is a decision of our own policy. (Do we want to officially 
recommend a third-party tool in our documentation?)

-- 

Andreas K. Huettel
Gentoo Linux developer 
dilfridge@gentoo.org
http://www.akhuettel.de/


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Installing KDE (was: Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: New install isos needed)

[Andreas K. Huettel]

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Am Sonntag, 24. März 2013, 11:04:11 schrieb Rich Freeman:
> On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 5:05 AM, Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net> wrote:
> 
> For an educational experience unpack a stage3 in a chroot and try to
> emerge kde or gnome.  Then try it again two weeks later.  This is what
> our new users experience.
> 

Actually we're trying to fix this problem with a different approach right now 
(independent of the install iso issue).

We (as the kde team) are modifying the profiles/targets/desktop/kde settings 
so if you pick a kde profile you can immediately emerge kde without further 
fiddling with useflags.

(At least that's the objective.)


-- 

Andreas K. Huettel
Gentoo Linux developer 
dilfridge@gentoo.org
http://www.akhuettel.de/


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Re: Installing KDE (was: Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: New install isos needed)

[Rich Freeman]

On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 11:11 AM, Andreas K. Huettel
<dilfridge@gentoo.org> wrote:
> We (as the kde team) are modifying the profiles/targets/desktop/kde settings
> so if you pick a kde profile you can immediately emerge kde without further
> fiddling with useflags.

That will be ideal, but I was more concerned with the frequent
blockers, dep issues, etc.

The dep issues are almost always bugs, and usually get fixed as such
(eventually).  The blockers tend to be a result of a stage3 that is
behind on some system package, and those eventually go away as well.
However, it seems like more often than not simply unpacking a stage3
and setting a few USE flags is not sufficient for an emerge kde-meta
to "just work."

Rich

Re: [gentoo-dev] New install isos needed

[Ben Kohler]

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On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 6:33 AM, Alexander Berntsen <alexander@plaimi.net>wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA256
>
> Making an install ISO is as pointless as writing a CMS for
> Gentoo.org... Gentoo should only bother if it is really necessary.
>
> ZSH-related bugs fixed ? Link SystemRescueCD : Link something else
>

I really feel like we should still have an official minimal iso, but there
is no reason it needs to be on the same schedule as the weekly stage3
autobuilds.  It doesn't even need to be "autobuilt" at all, a couple of
hand-rolled hand-reviewed releases a year, or as-needed based on new
features that show up.

-Ben

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Re: [gentoo-dev] New install isos needed

[Alexander Berntsen]

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On 24/03/13 20:32, Ben Kohler wrote:
> I really feel like we should still have an official minimal iso
Feelings do not matter.

- -- 
Alexander
alexander@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] New install isos needed

[Ben Kohler]

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On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 2:46 PM, Alexander Berntsen <alexander@plaimi.net>wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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>
> On 24/03/13 20:32, Ben Kohler wrote:
> > I really feel like we should still have an official minimal iso
> Feelings do not matter.
>
> - --
> Alexander
>

As a very active contributor in #gentoo, assisting new users every day with
their first-time gentoo installs, I strongly believe it's important that we
have an official install medium upon which the official installation
handbook is based.  But I would also like to see the handbook expanded a
bit to make it clear that nearly any other livecd can be used, when the
official minimal cd has bugs or just lacks some features for a special
setup.

-Ben
(iamben @ freenode)

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Re: [gentoo-dev] New install isos needed

[Ben Kohler]

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On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 2:46 PM, Alexander Berntsen <alexander@plaimi.net>wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA256
>
> On 24/03/13 20:32, Ben Kohler wrote:
> > I really feel like we should still have an official minimal iso
> Feelings do not matter.
>
> - --
> Alexander
>

Just to add a bit more, to get across the point that I'm not just some
random whining user-- most of the "major" bugs on our stage3s and minimal
isos in the last 6 months or so were reported by me.  The firmware issue
that sparked this thread, was reported, investigated,  and solved by me.
 BUT I don't think that we should scrap the gentoo minimal iso, just change
the release schedule & processes.

-Ben

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Re: [gentoo-dev] New install isos needed

[Alexander Berntsen]

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On 24/03/13 21:17, Ben Kohler wrote:
> I strongly believe it's important that we have an official install
>  medium [that] the official installation handbook is based [on].
I agree. Let's make it SystemRescueCd.
- -- 
Alexander
alexander@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] New install isos needed

[W. Trevor King]

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On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 09:55:05PM +0100, Alexander Berntsen wrote:
> On 24/03/13 21:17, Ben Kohler wrote:
> > I strongly believe it's important that we have an official install
> >  medium [that] the official installation handbook is based [on].
>
> I agree. Let's make it SystemRescueCd.

This is not my bailiwick, but I feel like releng has better
documentation for their build process than SystemRescueCd.  It's not
clear to me how you would go from a seed system to a fresh
SystemRescueCd without Francois Dupoux (the sole SystemRescueCd
developer) at the wheel.  I'm also don't think SystemRescueCd supports
the less common architectures like MIPS, it's just x86/amd64, sparc,
and ppc [1].

Cheers,
Trevor

[1]: http://sourceforge.net/projects/systemrescuecd/files/

-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] New install isos needed

[Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto]

On Sat, 23 Mar 2013, Pacho Ramos wrote:

> Today I tried to boot latest install ISO (from January) and hit this
> bug:
> https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=455924
>
> This breaks a lot of hardware requiring firmwares (like some wireless
> drivers)
>
> Could a new ISO set be released?

I'm working on it.
The bug itself was fixed on catalyst some weeks ago (I still need to do a 
release with it, but our official box is using catalyst-9999 and has the 
fix).
The 2 main issues with the stages and isos for the past 6 months have been 
developer time (I'm the one doing that work and haven't had as much free 
time) and the hardware hosting the official build box.
The new buildbox has had a few hardware issues that have caused it to 
reboot while running the catalyst jobs. We also had a few issues with the 
tree that caused some build failures and the main reason why everyone is 
so interested in the new stages / isos, the recent major blocks affecting 
the tree, also caused issues for catalyst.

In the meantime, anyone interested in new stages / isos, are free and 
welcome to test the ones built on my own server (using the official 
specs)[1].

About the complaints regarding the packages in the minmal cds, releng's 
position is that it should include the bare minimum to install Gentoo.
That's why we're now creating admin-cds, that use a hardened kernel / 
toolchain and include a few useful tools (still no X, though)[2].

  [1] - http://www.jmbsvicetto.name/releases/auto/
  [2] - https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=352152

> Thanks

Regards,

Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto

PS - I still haven't fixed my Gentoo email setup, so I wasn't following 
this 
thread until someone hinted about it.

Re: [gentoo-dev] New install isos needed

[Pacho Ramos]

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El lun, 25-03-2013 a las 01:39 +0000, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto
escribió:
[...]
> In the meantime, anyone interested in new stages / isos, are free and 
> welcome to test the ones built on my own server (using the official 
> specs)[1].

Why not point officially to your ISOs then? They look "official" enough
for me ;)

Thanks for your work :)


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: New install isos needed

[Tobias Klausmann]

Hi! 

On Sun, 24 Mar 2013, Duncan wrote:
> Samuli Suominen posted on Sun, 24 Mar 2013 09:32:22 +0200 as excerpted:
> 
> > imho we should contact the sysrescuecd developers and suggest more close
> > cooperation, such that it could be called official install media in
> > gentoo-terms
> 
> I've wondered for years why gentoo invests all that effort into creating 
> its own install media, when there's many dedicated projects out there 
> whose whole purpose is live install/rescue media.  It has always seemed 
> to me that we'd be better off simply using one of them and saving the 
> effort for something closer to our core competency/mission.

SysRescueCD does not exist for the fringe architectures. When we
first built the install media, the only alternative that was
somewhat reliable was Knoppix -- which in turn had its own
problems during the x86/amd64 days.  So we built our own.

I'll say it again: if we don't make install media anymore and
tell people to use SRCD instead, we will lose installation
support for at least alpha, ppc/64, hppa and ia64. As for sparc,
mips and arm, there _might_ be alternatives, but I'm not aware of
them. 

Regards,
Tobias


-- 
"Brain, konban wa nani o shimashitai?"
"Your Japanese is terrible, Pinky."

Re: [gentoo-dev] New install isos needed

[Tobias Klausmann]

Hi! 

On Sun, 24 Mar 2013, Alexander Berntsen wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA256
> 
> On 24/03/13 21:17, Ben Kohler wrote:
> > I strongly believe it's important that we have an official install
> >  medium [that] the official installation handbook is based [on].
> I agree. Let's make it SystemRescueCd.

I'll say it again: srcd is not available for many off-mainstream
architectures. Are you saying you want to give them the boot?

Regards,
Tobias

-- 
"Brain, konban wa nani o shimashitai?"
"Your Japanese is terrible, Pinky."

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: New install isos needed

[Markos Chandras]

On 25 March 2013 09:30, Tobias Klausmann <klausman@gentoo.org> wrote:
> I'll say it again: if we don't make install media anymore and
> tell people to use SRCD instead, we will lose installation
> support for at least alpha, ppc/64, hppa and ia64. As for sparc,
> mips and arm, there _might_ be alternatives, but I'm not aware of
> them.
>

We can suggest SRCD as an alternative just for the amd64/x86 isos

-- 
Regards,
Markos Chandras - Gentoo Linux Developer
http://dev.gentoo.org/~hwoarang

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: New install isos needed

[Tobias Klausmann]

Hi! 

On Mon, 25 Mar 2013, Markos Chandras wrote:
> On 25 March 2013 09:30, Tobias Klausmann <klausman@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > I'll say it again: if we don't make install media anymore and
> > tell people to use SRCD instead, we will lose installation
> > support for at least alpha, ppc/64, hppa and ia64. As for sparc,
> > mips and arm, there _might_ be alternatives, but I'm not aware of
> > them.
> >
> 
> We can suggest SRCD as an alternative just for the amd64/x86 isos

WFM. Note that I _agree_ that all the install image building is
eating time and is a source for errors.

Thing is, if we only build them for fringe archs, we might run
into the "oh well, it's just for those few dozen users, it
doesn't matter if it's slightly broken" effect. Even though the
images were broken for the mainstream, it took quite a while (and
a longish thread) for them to be fixed/taken care of. Imagine if
they'd only been broken for ppc64 and alpha.

While my arch team (alpha) is very lucky to have armin76 taking
good care of the images, not all of them have somebody like him
(who seems to have 36h-days and never sleeping). And if we drop
support for the ISO on amd64/x86, fewer people will probably care
about it, putting more strain on the already thinly-spread arch
teams to fix stuff and track upstream package changes.

Recommending SRCD as an alternative sounds fine by me, especially
for the sheer volume of possible hardware combinations in
amd64-land. But we should still think of our own ISOs as
something supported on all arches we want to offer.

Regards,
Tobias

-- 
"Brain, konban wa nani o shimashitai?"
"Your Japanese is terrible, Pinky."

Re: [gentoo-dev] New install isos needed

[Alexander Berntsen]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

On 25/03/13 10:32, Tobias Klausmann wrote:
> Are you saying you want to give [off-mainstream architectures] the
>  boot?
No.

> SysRescueCD does not exist for the fringe architectures.
Then make it. That way we will have a reliable install medium for all
architectures, an as an added bonus we will have helped a different
free software project become more useful to our community (i.e. the
free software community, but by extension the Gentoo community as well).
- -- 
Alexander
alexander@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] New install isos needed

[Tobias Klausmann]

Hi! 

On Mon, 25 Mar 2013, Alexander Berntsen wrote:
> > SysRescueCD does not exist for the fringe architectures.
> Then make it. That way we will have a reliable install medium for all
> architectures, an as an added bonus we will have helped a different
> free software project become more useful to our community (i.e. the
> free software community, but by extension the Gentoo community as well).

This not quite as easy as it may seem. I suspect getting SRCD to
work with, say, aboot instead of isolinux. Its build process
probably is not accommodating that. Now remember that this has to
be modular since there is no point in tending to patches for all
the architectures we want.

Booting is the most obvious part. But I am reasonably sure that
SRCD uses some programs as integral parts that won't build or run
reliably on some of the architectures I mentioned. Now you
suddenly have to modularize the whole thing.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but it surely isn't just a matter
of "recompile it for sparc". I might take a look at it over the
easter holidays, but I doubt I'll have anything beyond "it's
feasible" vs. "it can't work because of X". End note that my
expertise is Alpha, I can't speak for any of the other
architectures when it comes to feasibility.

Regards,
Tobias


-- 
"Brain, konban wa nani o shimashitai?"
"Your Japanese is terrible, Pinky."

Re: [gentoo-dev] New install isos needed

[Alexander Berntsen]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

On 25/03/13 13:20, Tobias Klausmann wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Mar 2013, Alexander Berntsen wrote:
>>> SysRescueCD does not exist for the fringe architectures.
>> Then make it. That way we will have a reliable install medium for
>> all architectures, an as an added bonus we will have helped a
>> different free software project become more useful to our
>> community (i.e. the free software community, but by extension the
>> Gentoo community as well).
> This not quite as easy as it may seem.
I don't think it seems easy. But nor does devoting time to a CD that
will only serve the purpose of installing Gentoo on these
architectures. Additionally, that strikes me as seriously pointless if
contributing to SysRescCd is a real alternative.
- -- 
Alexander
alexander@plaimi.net
http://plaimi.net/~alexander
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Re: [gentoo-dev] New install isos needed

[Tobias Klausmann]

Hi! 

On Mon, 25 Mar 2013, Alexander Berntsen wrote:
> I don't think it seems easy. But nor does devoting time to a CD
> that will only serve the purpose of installing Gentoo on these
> architectures. Additionally, that strikes me as seriously
> pointless if contributing to SysRescCd is a real alternative.

Thing is that SRCD does a lot more things than our mini ISO does.
As a result, keeping it going on half a dozen architectures is
more work than maintaining our arguably very simple images. There
is a reason why we abandoned making the "fat" install images a
while back and now only do them as one-offs for special events
(like the 10y anniversary).

While using SRCD will add manpower to our image-making, its
userbase will add constraints (X, Y and Z need to keep working,
even if we and our users never use it). I'm not sure it's a net
benefit in widening the audience several orders of magnitude more
than widening the developer pool.

Regards,
Tobias


-- 
"Brain, konban wa nani o shimashitai?"
"Your Japanese is terrible, Pinky."

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: New install isos needed

[Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto]

On Mon, 25 Mar 2013, Tobias Klausmann wrote:

> Hi!
>
> On Mon, 25 Mar 2013, Markos Chandras wrote:
>> On 25 March 2013 09:30, Tobias Klausmann <klausman@gentoo.org> wrote:
>>> I'll say it again: if we don't make install media anymore and
>>> tell people to use SRCD instead, we will lose installation
>>> support for at least alpha, ppc/64, hppa and ia64. As for sparc,
>>> mips and arm, there _might_ be alternatives, but I'm not aware of
>>> them.
>>>
>>
>> We can suggest SRCD as an alternative just for the amd64/x86 isos
>
> WFM. Note that I _agree_ that all the install image building is
> eating time and is a source for errors.

While I've personally recommended users to use SRCD and use it myself for 
a few things, I won't stop working on the amd64 / x86 releases.
Also, from a QA standpoint, having automated builds is very important as 
it allows us to catch many problems with the tree or specific packages.

> Thing is, if we only build them for fringe archs, we might run
> into the "oh well, it's just for those few dozen users, it
> doesn't matter if it's slightly broken" effect. Even though the
> images were broken for the mainstream, it took quite a while (and
> a longish thread) for them to be fixed/taken care of. Imagine if
> they'd only been broken for ppc64 and alpha.

As I said, I won't stop working on the amd64 / x86 releases.

> While my arch team (alpha) is very lucky to have armin76 taking
> good care of the images, not all of them have somebody like him
> (who seems to have 36h-days and never sleeping). And if we drop
> support for the ISO on amd64/x86, fewer people will probably care
> about it, putting more strain on the already thinly-spread arch
> teams to fix stuff and track upstream package changes.
>
> Recommending SRCD as an alternative sounds fine by me, especially
> for the sheer volume of possible hardware combinations in
> amd64-land. But we should still think of our own ISOs as
> something supported on all arches we want to offer.
>
> Regards,
> Tobias


Regards,
Jorge

Re: [gentoo-dev] New install isos needed

[Rich Freeman]

On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 8:49 AM, Tobias Klausmann <klausman@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Thing is that SRCD does a lot more things than our mini ISO does.
> As a result, keeping it going on half a dozen architectures is
> more work than maintaining our arguably very simple images. There
> is a reason why we abandoned making the "fat" install images a
> while back and now only do them as one-offs for special events
> (like the 10y anniversary).

Tend to agree.  To install Gentoo you really just need a shell, the
ability to partition and create filesystems, some basic networking
(even that is somewhat optional), and a text editor.  Sure, a browser
and such is a real nice-to-have, as would be something nicer than
nano, but you really don't need them to install Gentoo.

You really don't need much more than a kernel and busybox to be honest.

There is no reason that we have to use the same install media on all
arch's, though it does simplify the docs.  It also isn't that
important to update the install media so quickly.  If we just kept an
archive of our old autobuilds when they break we could just leave the
last known good copy up until things are straightened out.

I'd put more priority on up-to-date stage3s.  It is a real pain if
you're doing an install and the first thing you're doing is updating
udev and migrating to kmod, or whatever and having to deal with
eselect news.  Users should at least get to use the system for 5
minutes before dealing with that stuff, especially if a few big
changes have queued up...

Rich

Re: [gentoo-dev] New install isos needed

[Ben Kohler]

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On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 8:45 AM, Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:

>
> Tend to agree.  To install Gentoo you really just need a shell, the
> ability to partition and create filesystems, some basic networking
> (even that is somewhat optional), and a text editor.  Sure, a browser
> and such is a real nice-to-have, as would be something nicer than
> nano, but you really don't need them to install Gentoo.


As an experienced user, it's fairly easy to run through the basic gentoo
install procedure from just about any root-on-linux login prompt you can
find.  But like it or not, some new users do depend on a certain amount of
consistency and and blindly-trusted copy-paste-ability.  Even the
gentoo-based sysresccd deviates enough to make things interesting at times.
 As cool as zsh is, having it as the default shell (with
non-gentoo-standard prompt) IS going to throw some people for a loop.  Not
to mention the polluted environment issues (ie $path set after chroot).  I
think it's important that our officially-endorsed iso stays closely tied to
the "standard gentoo" setup.  For the new user experience, I don't think
"any old linux iso will do just fine" applies.

BTW I just quoted your one paragraph because I definitely agree with
everything else you said.

-Ben

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Re: [gentoo-dev] New install isos needed

[Alec Warner]

On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 6:39 PM, Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto
<jmbsvicetto@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Mar 2013, Pacho Ramos wrote:
>
>> Today I tried to boot latest install ISO (from January) and hit this
>> bug:
>> https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=455924
>>
>> This breaks a lot of hardware requiring firmwares (like some wireless
>> drivers)
>>
>> Could a new ISO set be released?
>
>
> I'm working on it.
> The bug itself was fixed on catalyst some weeks ago (I still need to do a
> release with it, but our official box is using catalyst-9999 and has the
> fix).
> The 2 main issues with the stages and isos for the past 6 months have been
> developer time (I'm the one doing that work and haven't had as much free
> time) and the hardware hosting the official build box.
> The new buildbox has had a few hardware issues that have caused it to reboot
> while running the catalyst jobs. We also had a few issues with the tree that
> caused some build failures and the main reason why everyone is so interested
> in the new stages / isos, the recent major blocks affecting the tree, also
> caused issues for catalyst.

Skimmer seems to be happier on its new kernel, which we deployed last week.

-A

>
> In the meantime, anyone interested in new stages / isos, are free and
> welcome to test the ones built on my own server (using the official
> specs)[1].
>
> About the complaints regarding the packages in the minmal cds, releng's
> position is that it should include the bare minimum to install Gentoo.
> That's why we're now creating admin-cds, that use a hardened kernel /
> toolchain and include a few useful tools (still no X, though)[2].
>
>  [1] - http://www.jmbsvicetto.name/releases/auto/
>  [2] - https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=352152
>
>> Thanks
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto
>
> PS - I still haven't fixed my Gentoo email setup, so I wasn't following this
> thread until someone hinted about it.
>