[gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

["Paweł Hajdan, Jr."]

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In my earlier thread
<http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/92113> I explored the
possibility to stabilize gcc-4.8, and we have that going now in
<https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=516152>.

Meanwhile I just applied a small patch for chromium-38 that allows it to
compile with gcc-4.7. It's in stable now.

We'll really need gcc-4.8 in stable within 6-12 weeks from now. Chromium
starts making heavy use of C++11 language features, see
<http://chromium-cpp.appspot.com/> . I don't realistically see us being
able to just patch chromium to work around that.

I'd like to ask for every possible help with
<https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=461954> blockers on amd64 and
x86. There are harder problems on arches like MIPS, but newer gcc is not
as urgent there I think.

One highlight is <https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=513386>. It
occurs only when the user has gcc-4.7 and 4.8 installed simultaneously
and using 4.7 as the active compiler. It's not obvious to me whether we
have to support this (while it's obviously better to support rather than
not, it's webkit-gtk in a specific and rare configuration versus
chromium with security updates in all configurations).

There is also <https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=500966> which may
be more tricky. I could reproduce that bug. It's also about webkit-gtk.

There are couple more blockers of
<https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=461954>. If you can, please
take a look and help. I think several other distros are using gcc-4.8 or
later now, they may have hit the same problems and either have patches
or something that could also help us. There may be some upstream patches
to be backported etc.

Paweł


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Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[M. Ziebell]

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I took a look a the list of the current blocker of gcc-4.8 and many /
most of them seem to be hardend or x86 related. Right now I'm using an
amd64 linux with some freaky "lto + heavily optimized" make.conf
flags and didn't find a gcc-4.8 related bug.
Except the usual list of package just not ready for lto.

But if anyone would ask me to stabilize gcc-4.8 I would say "amd64 ok".



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Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Rich Freeman]

On Sat, Oct 11, 2014 at 4:07 PM, M. Ziebell <ziebell_marco@posteo.de> wrote:
>
> But if anyone would ask me to stabilize gcc-4.8 I would say "amd64 ok".
>

If there is general consensus that this is going to be a stable target
it might make sense to start running mixed stable+gcc-4.8 systems as
widely as possible for feedback.

--
Rich

Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Andreas K. Huettel]

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Am Samstag, 11. Oktober 2014, 22:28:08 schrieb Rich Freeman:
> On Sat, Oct 11, 2014 at 4:07 PM, M. Ziebell <ziebell_marco@posteo.de> wrote:
> > But if anyone would ask me to stabilize gcc-4.8 I would say "amd64 ok".
> 
> If there is general consensus that this is going to be a stable target
> it might make sense to start running mixed stable+gcc-4.8 systems as
> widely as possible for feedback.
> 

If it's of any help, I've been running 4.8 on my mostly stable systems for 
ages. Sounds feasible.

-- 

Andreas K. Huettel
Gentoo Linux developer 
dilfridge@gentoo.org
http://www.akhuettel.de/


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Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Anthony G. Basile]

On 10/11/14 16:28, Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Sat, Oct 11, 2014 at 4:07 PM, M. Ziebell <ziebell_marco@posteo.de> wrote:
>> But if anyone would ask me to stabilize gcc-4.8 I would say "amd64 ok".
>>
> If there is general consensus that this is going to be a stable target
> it might make sense to start running mixed stable+gcc-4.8 systems as
> widely as possible for feedback.
>
> --
> Rich
>

Looking at the following two trackers:

#461954 - GCC 4.8 porting

#516152 - sys-devel/gcc-4.8.? stabilization


I would say the following still should be fixed:

#523788 - sys-firmware/ipxe-1.0.0_p20130925 stable request - fixes build 
for gcc-4.8

#477118 - media-gfx/photivo-0_pre20121212 fails to build with gcc 4.8 - 
error: ‘shared_ptr’ in namespace ‘std’ does not name a type

#499166 - x11-misc/imake-1.0.7 stabilize (just ia64 and sparc to go)- 
fixes build for gcc-4.8

#499996 - media-video/vlc-2.1.2 - deinterlace/yadif_template.h: In 
function 'yadif_filter_line_ssse3': deinterlace/yadif_template.h:134:9: 
error: 'asm' operand has impossible constraints

#500064 - app-emulation/virtualbox-4.3.6 fails to build with gcc 4.8.x 
in bundled iPXE (fixed in vbox 4.3.16)

#500944 - =media-libs/x264-0.0.20111220 segmentation faults during 
initialization of x264 encoder in x264_cqm_init () from 
/usr/lib/libx264.so.120

#500966 - >=net-libs/webkit-gtk-2.2.4 USE=-webgl - 
./.libs/libwebkitgtk-1.0.so: undefined reference to 
`_ZN3JSC21GenericTypedArrayViewINS_14Float32AdaptorEE6createEj'

#513386 - net-libs/webkit-gtk-2.4.3 - ./.libs/libwebkitgtk-3.0.so: 
undefined reference to `_ZNSt6chrono12steady_clock3nowEv@GLIBCXX_3.4.17'

These look like some namespace issues, and different use of registers 
(on x86).  #499996 is hardened specific.



I think the following can be put on the backburner.

#516548 - [4.8/4.9] gcc-4.8+ __atomic_* builtins broken on R10000-based 
MIPS systems.

#458706 - PaX: Max. per-task virtual memory too small for llvm asan and 
gcc-4.8 asan

#465268 - dev-embedded/msp430-gcc-4.6.3_p20120406 with gcc-4.8.0

#503838 - sys-libs/glibc: building w/gcc-4.8 crashes early on ia64

For mips there is nothing to do, but ia64 will have to fall behind.  And 
hardened will have to live with the asan-PaX issue.


-- 
Anthony G. Basile, Ph.D.
Gentoo Linux Developer [Hardened]
E-Mail    : blueness@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP  : 1FED FAD9 D82C 52A5 3BAB  DC79 9384 FA6E F52D 4BBA
GnuPG ID  : F52D4BBA

Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Rich Freeman]

On Sat, Oct 11, 2014 at 5:27 PM, Anthony G. Basile <blueness@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> I would say the following still should be fixed:
>...
>
> These look like some namespace issues, and different use of registers (on
> x86).  #499996 is hardened specific.

Do any of these actually apply to non-hardened amd64?  I picked a few
at random using default USE flags and didn't get any build failures on
amd64 except for photivo (note that I didn't test the rest
exhaustively).  What is blocking stabilization on amd64?

This makes me wonder how much love the 32-bit toolchain is getting
these days (not just on Gentoo).  A bit of a reversal from the early
days of amd64...

--
Rich

Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Joshua Kinard]

On 10/11/2014 07:57, "Paweł Hajdan, Jr." wrote:
[snip]
> I'd like to ask for every possible help with
> <https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=461954> blockers on amd64 and
> x86. There are harder problems on arches like MIPS, but newer gcc is not
> as urgent there I think.

I've whittled down my MIPS problem (PR61538 // bug #516548) down to something
screwy in the newer gcc-4.8 atomics for MIPS that appears to only affect
R10000-based processors (so far).  I am assuming it doesn't affect newer
MIPS32/MIPS64 chips because someone would have caught that by now.  It's got
something to do with the new c++11 memory models.

gcc-4.7 and earlier used __sync_lock_test_and_set() as a placeholder for
atomic_exchange_acq(), which is an acquire memory op.  That works fine.  But in
gcc-4.8, they added actual assembler for atomic_exchange_acq(), and that is
somehow not playing nice with glibc's futex code on an R10000.  Kernel-side, it
gets stuck somewhere deep in freezable_schedule() and won't exit until you
ctrl+c the stuck process.

gcc upstream seems uninterested in addressing it right now, so I need to go
poke libc-alpha next, I guess.  Probably going to need a sharper stick.

MIPS has no stable, so don't let it hold you guys back.  Just keep gcc-4.7.x in
the tree for a few more years.  I've got time until glibc requires gcc-4.8 to
get this bug figured out and fixed :)

-- 
Joshua Kinard
Gentoo/MIPS
kumba@gentoo.org
4096R/D25D95E3 2011-03-28

"The past tempts us, the present confuses us, the future frightens us.  And our
lives slip away, moment by moment, lost in that vast, terrible in-between."

--Emperor Turhan, Centauri Republic

Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Anthony G. Basile]

On 10/11/14 22:06, Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Sat, Oct 11, 2014 at 5:27 PM, Anthony G. Basile <blueness@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> I would say the following still should be fixed:
>> ...
>>
>> These look like some namespace issues, and different use of registers (on
>> x86).  #499996 is hardened specific.
> Do any of these actually apply to non-hardened amd64?  I picked a few

I'm working on that.  I'm not sure that #499996 is hardened i686 
specific right now.  I'm hitting it on vm with even the vanilla gcc so 
something else might be going on here.
> at random using default USE flags and didn't get any build failures on
> amd64 except for photivo (note that I didn't test the rest
> exhaustively).  What is blocking stabilization on amd64?

The photivo was trivial, we just needed to turn on the pic flag in the 
hardened profile.  Magnus took care of that.

>
> This makes me wonder how much love the 32-bit toolchain is getting
> these days (not just on Gentoo).  A bit of a reversal from the early
> days of amd64...

Roughly, there are two classes of bugs, those that are in gcc itself 
because of bad implementation (usually arch specific like the situation 
with the poor R10000 mips), and those that gcc exposes in other 
packages.  I don't see any of the former category right now.

>
> --
> Rich
>

-- 
Anthony G. Basile, Ph.D.
Gentoo Linux Developer [Hardened]
E-Mail    : blueness@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP  : 1FED FAD9 D82C 52A5 3BAB  DC79 9384 FA6E F52D 4BBA
GnuPG ID  : F52D4BBA

Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Rich Freeman]

On Sun, Oct 12, 2014 at 8:23 AM, Anthony G. Basile <blueness@gentoo.org> wrote:
> I'm working on that.  I'm not sure that #499996 is hardened i686 specific
> right now.  I'm hitting it on vm with even the vanilla gcc so something else
> might be going on here.

VLC built fine on stable amd64 with near-default make.conf in my
testing.  It may be an x86 issue though.

>
> Roughly, there are two classes of bugs, those that are in gcc itself because
> of bad implementation (usually arch specific like the situation with the
> poor R10000 mips), and those that gcc exposes in other packages.  I don't
> see any of the former category right now.
>

True.  Actually, the issue might be more that x86 in general isn't
getting the kind of love it used to.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not suggesting we should demote it or
anything.  I'm just wondering if this is a portent of things to come.
Just as most amd64 bugs were the result of mismatched types and the
like, the same can work in reverse, and it is good to eliminate these
bugs so that the next time some arch shift comes along we're not
starting over from ground zero again.

--
Rich

Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Anthony G. Basile]

On 10/12/14 11:05, Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 12, 2014 at 8:23 AM, Anthony G. Basile <blueness@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> I'm working on that.  I'm not sure that #499996 is hardened i686 specific
>> right now.  I'm hitting it on vm with even the vanilla gcc so something else
>> might be going on here.
> VLC built fine on stable amd64 with near-default make.conf in my
> testing.  It may be an x86 issue though.
>
>> Roughly, there are two classes of bugs, those that are in gcc itself because
>> of bad implementation (usually arch specific like the situation with the
>> poor R10000 mips), and those that gcc exposes in other packages.  I don't
>> see any of the former category right now.
>>
> True.  Actually, the issue might be more that x86 in general isn't
> getting the kind of love it used to.
>
> Don't get me wrong - I'm not suggesting we should demote it or
> anything.  I'm just wondering if this is a portent of things to come.
> Just as most amd64 bugs were the result of mismatched types and the
> like, the same can work in reverse, and it is good to eliminate these
> bugs so that the next time some arch shift comes along we're not
> starting over from ground zero again.
>
> --
> Rich
>

Yeah we're not demoting anything, we're just trying to figure out what 
we can live with and what we can't.

I think there's only one more issue we really can't live with and that's 
the c++11 issue.  4.8 introduces -std=c++11 which breaks abi backwards 
compatibility.  You can see this in, for example, the webkit-gtk bugs.  
If we stabilize gcc-4.8.3 now, then people using 4.8 to upgrade 
consumers of webkit-gtk built with 4.7 and going to hit unresolved 
symbols --- they'll have the characteristic c++ mangled name.  We talked 
about this before.  I don't remember what we concluded, but thinking 
about it now, the easiest approach would be to have some reverse 
dependency contingent on a c++11 USE flag trigger the rebuilding of 
webkit-gtk.  Then we'll have a tracker for other packages which have the 
same issue.

Comments?

-- 
Anthony G. Basile, Ph.D.
Gentoo Linux Developer [Hardened]
E-Mail    : blueness@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP  : 1FED FAD9 D82C 52A5 3BAB  DC79 9384 FA6E F52D 4BBA
GnuPG ID  : F52D4BBA

Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[vivo75]

Hi,
  have you considered to stabilize gcc:4.9 instead possibly 4.9.2 ?
I'm not really suggesting to do so, but seem that most of the problems
of 4.9.1 are the same of 4.8.3 so maybe it's worth considering.


Il 11/10/2014 13:57, "Paweł Hajdan, Jr." ha scritto:
> In my earlier thread
> <http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/92113> I explored the
> possibility to stabilize gcc-4.8, and we have that going now in
> <https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=516152>.
>
> Meanwhile I just applied a small patch for chromium-38 that allows it to
> compile with gcc-4.7. It's in stable now.
>
> We'll really need gcc-4.8 in stable within 6-12 weeks from now. Chromium
> starts making heavy use of C++11 language features, see
> <http://chromium-cpp.appspot.com/> . I don't realistically see us being
> able to just patch chromium to work around that.

for 4.9.2 the 6-12 week window could be a problem


> I'd like to ask for every possible help with
> <https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=461954> blockers on amd64 and
> x86. There are harder problems on arches like MIPS, but newer gcc is not
> as urgent there I think.
>
> One highlight is <https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=513386>. It
> occurs only when the user has gcc-4.7 and 4.8 installed simultaneously
> and using 4.7 as the active compiler. It's not obvious to me whether we
> have to support this (while it's obviously better to support rather than
> not, it's webkit-gtk in a specific and rare configuration versus
> chromium with security updates in all configurations).
>
> There is also <https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=500966> which may
> be more tricky. I could reproduce that bug. It's also about webkit-gtk.
>
> There are couple more blockers of
> <https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=461954>. If you can, please
> take a look and help. I think several other distros are using gcc-4.8 or
> later now, they may have hit the same problems and either have patches
> or something that could also help us. There may be some upstream patches
> to be backported etc.
>
> Paweł
>

Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

["Paweł Hajdan, Jr."]

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On 10/13/14 1:38 AM, vivo75@gmail.com wrote:
>   have you considered to stabilize gcc:4.9 instead possibly 4.9.2 ?
> I'm not really suggesting to do so, but seem that most of the problems
> of 4.9.1 are the same of 4.8.3 so maybe it's worth considering.
> 
> Il 11/10/2014 13:57, "Paweł Hajdan, Jr." ha scritto:
>> We'll really need gcc-4.8 in stable within 6-12 weeks from now. Chromium
>> starts making heavy use of C++11 language features, see
>> <http://chromium-cpp.appspot.com/> . I don't realistically see us being
>> able to just patch chromium to work around that.
> 
> for 4.9.2 the 6-12 week window could be a problem

Yeah, I don't think we can go straight to 4.9 without the latter
spending time in ~arch, and for now it's still hard masked.

Paweł


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Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Diego Elio Pettenò]

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I can spend some time with the tinderbox on 4.9 but the maintainers will
have to accept that the logs will be linked and not attached.

(This being the main reason why I stopped bothering unless people asked me
explicitly, given how many times someone closed my bugs with NEEDINFO
because the logs were not attached.)

Diego Elio Pettenò — Flameeyes
flameeyes@flameeyes.eu — http://blog.flameeyes.eu/

On 18 October 2014 08:51, "Paweł Hajdan, Jr." <phajdan.jr@gentoo.org> wrote:

> On 10/13/14 1:38 AM, vivo75@gmail.com wrote:
> >   have you considered to stabilize gcc:4.9 instead possibly 4.9.2 ?
> > I'm not really suggesting to do so, but seem that most of the problems
> > of 4.9.1 are the same of 4.8.3 so maybe it's worth considering.
> >
> > Il 11/10/2014 13:57, "Paweł Hajdan, Jr." ha scritto:
> >> We'll really need gcc-4.8 in stable within 6-12 weeks from now. Chromium
> >> starts making heavy use of C++11 language features, see
> >> <http://chromium-cpp.appspot.com/> . I don't realistically see us being
> >> able to just patch chromium to work around that.
> >
> > for 4.9.2 the 6-12 week window could be a problem
>
> Yeah, I don't think we can go straight to 4.9 without the latter
> spending time in ~arch, and for now it's still hard masked.
>
> Paweł
>
>

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Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Alexander Tsoy]

On Sun Oct 12 01:27:38 2014 Anthony G. Basile <blueness@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On 10/11/14 16:28, Rich Freeman wrote:
> > On Sat, Oct 11, 2014 at 4:07 PM, M. Ziebell <ziebell_marco@posteo.de>
> > wrote:
> > > But if anyone would ask me to stabilize gcc-4.8 I would say "amd64
> > > ok".
> > > 
> > If there is general consensus that this is going to be a stable target
> > it might make sense to start running mixed stable+gcc-4.8 systems as
> > widely as possible for feedback.
> > 
> > --
> > Rich
> > 
> 
> Looking at the following two trackers:
> 
> #461954 - GCC 4.8 porting
> 
> #516152 - sys-devel/gcc-4.8.? stabilization
> 
> 
> I would say the following still should be fixed:
> 

<snip>

> #500944 - =media-libs/x264-0.0.20111220 segmentation faults during 
> initialization of x264 encoder in x264_cqm_init () from 
> /usr/lib/libx264.so.120

Most likely already fixed in current stable x264-0.0.20140308

> 
> #500966 - >=net-libs/webkit-gtk-2.2.4 USE=-webgl - 
> ./.libs/libwebkitgtk-1.0.so: undefined reference to 
> `_ZN3JSC21GenericTypedArrayViewINS_14Float32AdaptorEE6createEj'

Not a blocker for gcc-4.8 stabilization - I can reproduce this bug with gcc-4.7.

> 
> #513386 - net-libs/webkit-gtk-2.4.3 - ./.libs/libwebkitgtk-3.0.so: 
> undefined reference to `_ZNSt6chrono12steady_clock3nowEv@GLIBCXX_3.4.17'
> 

Maybe documentation + news item would be enough?

-- 
Alexander Tsoy

Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Pacho Ramos]

El sáb, 18-10-2014 a las 12:35 +0100, Diego Elio Pettenò escribió:
> I can spend some time with the tinderbox on 4.9 but the maintainers
> will have to accept that the logs will be linked and not attached.
> 
> 
> (This being the main reason why I stopped bothering unless people
> asked me explicitly, given how many times someone closed my bugs with
> NEEDINFO because the logs were not attached.)
> 
> Diego Elio Pettenò — Flameeyes
> flameeyes@flameeyes.eu — http://blog.flameeyes.eu/
> 

What is the main reason for not being able to attach them to the bugs
(as normally is done with other bug reports not related with tinderbox)?
Wouldn't be possible to, once they are stored on your amazon webservice
account, use wget to download them and attach them using pybugz for
example?

Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Diego Elio Pettenò]

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If you write the code for that, be my guest. But the code is in Ruby and
does not open the bug directly (only links to a pre-filled bug form).

When I wrote it, Python was definitely not among my strong languages. While
I can probably write it now, I don't have the time.

As I said I'm happy to volunteer my time to run the tinderbox and file the
bugs. But I won't do so if all I'm going to get back is bitching. It seems
a fair proposal to me.

Diego Elio Pettenò — Flameeyes
flameeyes@flameeyes.eu — http://blog.flameeyes.eu/

On 18 October 2014 12:59, Pacho Ramos <pacho@gentoo.org> wrote:

> El sáb, 18-10-2014 a las 12:35 +0100, Diego Elio Pettenò escribió:
> > I can spend some time with the tinderbox on 4.9 but the maintainers
> > will have to accept that the logs will be linked and not attached.
> >
> >
> > (This being the main reason why I stopped bothering unless people
> > asked me explicitly, given how many times someone closed my bugs with
> > NEEDINFO because the logs were not attached.)
> >
> > Diego Elio Pettenò — Flameeyes
> > flameeyes@flameeyes.eu — http://blog.flameeyes.eu/
> >
>
> What is the main reason for not being able to attach them to the bugs
> (as normally is done with other bug reports not related with tinderbox)?
> Wouldn't be possible to, once they are stored on your amazon webservice
> account, use wget to download them and attach them using pybugz for
> example?
>
>
>
>

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Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Anthony G. Basile]

On 10/18/14 07:56, Alexander Tsoy wrote:
> On Sun Oct 12 01:27:38 2014 Anthony G. Basile <blueness@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> On 10/11/14 16:28, Rich Freeman wrote:
>>> On Sat, Oct 11, 2014 at 4:07 PM, M. Ziebell <ziebell_marco@posteo.de>
>>> wrote:
>>>> But if anyone would ask me to stabilize gcc-4.8 I would say "amd64
>>>> ok".
>>>>
>>> If there is general consensus that this is going to be a stable target
>>> it might make sense to start running mixed stable+gcc-4.8 systems as
>>> widely as possible for feedback.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Rich
>>>
>> Looking at the following two trackers:
>>
>> #461954 - GCC 4.8 porting
>>
>> #516152 - sys-devel/gcc-4.8.? stabilization
>>
>>
>> I would say the following still should be fixed:
>>
> <snip>
>
>> #500944 - =media-libs/x264-0.0.20111220 segmentation faults during
>> initialization of x264 encoder in x264_cqm_init () from
>> /usr/lib/libx264.so.120
> Most likely already fixed in current stable x264-0.0.20140308

Can someone check.

>
>> #500966 - >=net-libs/webkit-gtk-2.2.4 USE=-webgl -
>> ./.libs/libwebkitgtk-1.0.so: undefined reference to
>> `_ZN3JSC21GenericTypedArrayViewINS_14Float32AdaptorEE6createEj'
> Not a blocker for gcc-4.8 stabilization - I can reproduce this bug with gcc-4.7.

Yeah.  I thought this was some c++11 thing but it isn't.

>
>> #513386 - net-libs/webkit-gtk-2.4.3 - ./.libs/libwebkitgtk-3.0.so:
>> undefined reference to `_ZNSt6chrono12steady_clock3nowEv@GLIBCXX_3.4.17'
>>
> Maybe documentation + news item would be enough?
>

I think that's the way to go here --- a news item.  The story with c++11 
is that gcc-4.8 can do c++11 but doesn't default to it.  The fedora 
folks basically said just don't use it yet.  We can't stop users from 
adding -std=c++11 to their flags, but at least we can warn them.  I 
looked into writing some eclass function which could test if a library 
is_c++11_abi() but this turns out to be harder than one might think.  
You'd have to specifically go through a list of ABI changes something 
along the lines of what's listed here [1].

So the next step is 1) I'll write a news item regarding gcc-4.8 
stabilization and the c++11 problem, 2) we start the stabilization of 
=sys-devel/gcc-4.8.3 =dev-libs/cloog-0.18.1 =dev-libs/isl-0.12.2, then 
3) we work at dealing with the abi issue for when/if it becomes the default.


Ref
[1] https://gcc.gnu.org/wiki/Cxx11AbiCompatibility

-- 
Anthony G. Basile, Ph.D.
Gentoo Linux Developer [Hardened]
E-Mail    : blueness@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP  : 1FED FAD9 D82C 52A5 3BAB  DC79 9384 FA6E F52D 4BBA
GnuPG ID  : F52D4BBA

Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Pacho Ramos]

El sáb, 18-10-2014 a las 14:15 +0100, Diego Elio Pettenò escribió:
> If you write the code for that, be my guest. But the code is in Ruby
> and does not open the bug directly (only links to a pre-filled bug
> form).
> 
> 
> When I wrote it, Python was definitely not among my strong languages.
> While I can probably write it now, I don't have the time.
> 
> 
> As I said I'm happy to volunteer my time to run the tinderbox and file
> the bugs. But I won't do so if all I'm going to get back is bitching.
> It seems a fair proposal to me.
> 
> Diego Elio Pettenò — Flameeyes
> flameeyes@flameeyes.eu — http://blog.flameeyes.eu/

What do you use to open the bug reports? Maybe could be easily be done
at that step :| (or even run some small script after the bug if filled
simply re-fetching the file from amazon and attaching to the bug it's
being processed)

Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Diego Elio Pettenò]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1717 bytes --]

All the stack is at https://github.com/gentoo/tboxanalysis

The opening of the bug report is done by a piece of meatware called "me".
The UI displays a link that I can click to pre-fill the bug report. The
rest of the information is filled in manually and submitted.
Also remember that the linked logs might be too big for Bugzilla to attach
uncompressed... and some of them even compressed.

I take it that at least one person (you) will object at me keeping the
process as is, so for the moment I won't be wasting my time on this. Call
me back if you find a way to fix that without requiring more of my time.

Diego Elio Pettenò — Flameeyes
flameeyes@flameeyes.eu — http://blog.flameeyes.eu/

On 18 October 2014 17:55, Pacho Ramos <pacho@gentoo.org> wrote:

> El sáb, 18-10-2014 a las 14:15 +0100, Diego Elio Pettenò escribió:
> > If you write the code for that, be my guest. But the code is in Ruby
> > and does not open the bug directly (only links to a pre-filled bug
> > form).
> >
> >
> > When I wrote it, Python was definitely not among my strong languages.
> > While I can probably write it now, I don't have the time.
> >
> >
> > As I said I'm happy to volunteer my time to run the tinderbox and file
> > the bugs. But I won't do so if all I'm going to get back is bitching.
> > It seems a fair proposal to me.
> >
> > Diego Elio Pettenò — Flameeyes
> > flameeyes@flameeyes.eu — http://blog.flameeyes.eu/
>
> What do you use to open the bug reports? Maybe could be easily be done
> at that step :| (or even run some small script after the bug if filled
> simply re-fetching the file from amazon and attaching to the bug it's
> being processed)
>
>
>
>

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Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Michael Orlitzky]

On 10/18/2014 01:00 PM, Diego Elio Pettenò wrote:
> All the stack is at https://github.com/gentoo/tboxanalysis
> 
> The opening of the bug report is done by a piece of meatware called
> "me". The UI displays a link that I can click to pre-fill the bug
> report. The rest of the information is filled in manually and submitted.
> Also remember that the linked logs might be too big for Bugzilla to
> attach uncompressed... and some of them even compressed.
> 
> I take it that at least one person (you) will object at me keeping the
> process as is, so for the moment I won't be wasting my time on this.
> Call me back if you find a way to fix that without requiring more of my
> time.
> 

Perhaps a stupid question, but: why is it a problem if the logs are
linked rather than attached?

Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Pacho Ramos]

El sáb, 18-10-2014 a las 18:00 +0100, Diego Elio Pettenò escribió:
> All the stack is at https://github.com/gentoo/tboxanalysis
> 
> 
> The opening of the bug report is done by a piece of meatware called
> "me". The UI displays a link that I can click to pre-fill the bug
> report. The rest of the information is filled in manually and
> submitted.
> Also remember that the linked logs might be too big for Bugzilla to
> attach uncompressed... and some of them even compressed.
> 
> 
> I take it that at least one person (you) will object at me keeping the
> process as is, so for the moment I won't be wasting my time on this.
> Call me back if you find a way to fix that without requiring more of
> my time.
> 
> Diego Elio Pettenò — Flameeyes
> flameeyes@flameeyes.eu — http://blog.flameeyes.eu/
> 

No, I don't object at all :), I never closed a bug because of this, but
was only trying to reach a way we could make all people happy (I don't
mind at all having attachments in amazon as long as they are available
or attachments)

Of course, if no dev has any problems (like me) with having them either
on amazon or attached, no action is required... but per your comments
looks like there were people having problems with that approach, then, I
thought if maybe some tweaks (or simply use an additional script for the
only purpose or attaching the files) could finally fix this arguments
for the future ;)

Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Pacho Ramos]

El sáb, 18-10-2014 a las 13:19 -0400, Michael Orlitzky escribió:
> On 10/18/2014 01:00 PM, Diego Elio Pettenò wrote:
> > All the stack is at https://github.com/gentoo/tboxanalysis
> > 
> > The opening of the bug report is done by a piece of meatware called
> > "me". The UI displays a link that I can click to pre-fill the bug
> > report. The rest of the information is filled in manually and submitted.
> > Also remember that the linked logs might be too big for Bugzilla to
> > attach uncompressed... and some of them even compressed.
> > 
> > I take it that at least one person (you) will object at me keeping the
> > process as is, so for the moment I won't be wasting my time on this.
> > Call me back if you find a way to fix that without requiring more of my
> > time.
> > 
> 
> Perhaps a stupid question, but: why is it a problem if the logs are
> linked rather than attached?
> 
> 

Supposedly we always must attach files to bug reports to ensure they are
kept forever with that bug reports instead of relying on external
resources that could disappear in the future (or far future). If I don't
misremember, flameeyes was paying for having that logs kept in that
amazon resource for a long long time... but some people were stricter
applying this rule and asked him to attach the file instead... leading
to the bug being closed as NEEDINFO and... 

Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Michael Orlitzky]

On 10/18/2014 01:34 PM, Pacho Ramos wrote:
> 
> Supposedly we always must attach files to bug reports to ensure they are
> kept forever with that bug reports instead of relying on external
> resources that could disappear in the future (or far future). If I don't
> misremember, flameeyes was paying for having that logs kept in that
> amazon resource for a long long time... but some people were stricter
> applying this rule and asked him to attach the file instead... leading
> to the bug being closed as NEEDINFO and... 

Dude... what?

If this is what's holding up a tinderbox run, add me to the bug template
as a CC and I'll personally download and attach every log to bugzilla.
If at some point we all decide this is super silly and embarrassing,
perhaps we can eliminate that step.

Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Pacho Ramos]

El sáb, 18-10-2014 a las 14:03 -0400, Michael Orlitzky escribió:
> On 10/18/2014 01:34 PM, Pacho Ramos wrote:
> > 
> > Supposedly we always must attach files to bug reports to ensure they are
> > kept forever with that bug reports instead of relying on external
> > resources that could disappear in the future (or far future). If I don't
> > misremember, flameeyes was paying for having that logs kept in that
> > amazon resource for a long long time... but some people were stricter
> > applying this rule and asked him to attach the file instead... leading
> > to the bug being closed as NEEDINFO and... 
> 
> Dude... what?
> 
> If this is what's holding up a tinderbox run, add me to the bug template
> as a CC and I'll personally download and attach every log to bugzilla.
> If at some point we all decide this is super silly and embarrassing,
> perhaps we can eliminate that step.
> 

I am also willing to help doing that if nothing better can be done 

Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Diego Elio Pettenò]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1272 bytes --]

On 18 October 2014 19:03, Michael Orlitzky <mjo@gentoo.org> wrote:

> Dude... what?
>
> If this is what's holding up a tinderbox run, add me to the bug template
> as a CC and I'll personally download and attach every log to bugzilla.
> If at some point we all decide this is super silly and embarrassing,
> perhaps we can eliminate that step.
>

Yeah this is essenially why I stopped spending time on tinderboxing,
especially as the someone kept closing bugs that eh wouldn't have looked at
anyway.

Indeed, for context, the main rule about attaching logs is to avoid people
filing bugs and referencing pastebin that can break in even just a week.
And the complains I got are of the like of "what if you decide to stop
paying amazon"? — that would more be the case if I end up having some more
health issues and be unable to pay, as the $2/month (less now, thanks to
Amazon slashing prices earlier this year) is not something I feel.
Especially in comparison to the $600/month the tinderbox *hardware* costs
me to host.

If there is the interest, I'll start prop it up for gcc-4.9 testing even
tonight. It'll take a couple of weeks to go all through it.

Diego Elio Pettenò — Flameeyes
flameeyes@flameeyes.eu — http://blog.flameeyes.eu/

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Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Jeroen Roovers]

On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 14:03:07 -0400
Michael Orlitzky <mjo@gentoo.org> wrote:

> If this is what's holding up a tinderbox run, add me to the bug
> template as a CC and I'll personally download and attach every log to
> bugzilla.

If the bugzilla API allows it, a very simple script should be able to
do this, including compression.


     jer

Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Jeroen Roovers]

On Sun, 19 Oct 2014 10:14:18 +0200
Jeroen Roovers <jer@gentoo.org> wrote:

> On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 14:03:07 -0400
> Michael Orlitzky <mjo@gentoo.org> wrote:
> 
> > If this is what's holding up a tinderbox run, add me to the bug
> > template as a CC and I'll personally download and attach every log
> > to bugzilla.
> 
> If the bugzilla API allows it, a very simple script should be able to
> do this, including compression.

That said, having people{who?}[1] resolve those bugs as NEEDINFO is
pretty silly. The only point in requiring attached build logs is to
make sure we don't depend on resources beyond the project's control[2].
Clearly those tinderbox build logs already meet that requirement and
should be allowed.


     jer


[1] Oh wait, no, I think I know this one. You should be ashamed.
[2] To make it even more silly, you could put those in
    dev.gentoo.org/~${USER}/public_html and nothing would really
    change. Or assign a Gentoo controlled domain name to that Amazon
    thingy and nothing would really change.

Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Andreas K. Huettel]

Am Samstag, 18. Oktober 2014, 19:34:52 schrieb Pacho Ramos:
> > 
> > Perhaps a stupid question, but: why is it a problem if the logs are
> > linked rather than attached?
> 
> Supposedly we always must attach files to bug reports to ensure they are
> kept forever with that bug reports instead of relying on external
> resources that could disappear in the future (or far future). 

It isn't (in my opinion) a problem *per se* if Diego does it the way he does 
it now. The reason being that *he* knows the logs should be available for a 
long time afterwards and takes care of that properly. So, Diego, I'm perfectly 
fine with accepting your bug reports, and I would be very glad if you also 
started tinderboxing again.

Globally, on the long run it *is* not so nice to link the logs for the one 
reason that we need to teach our users to attach logs instead of linking them. 
(Since they do not automatically apply the same level of care.) Now if they 
keep stumbling on bugs where the logs are just linked instead of attached, 
this gets harder and harder. A case of "make a policy, expect everyone else to 
stick to it and go ahead with a bad example".

-- 

Andreas K. Huettel
Gentoo Linux developer 
dilfridge@gentoo.org
http://www.akhuettel.de/

Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Rich Freeman]

On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 8:10 AM, Andreas K. Huettel
<dilfridge@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Am Samstag, 18. Oktober 2014, 19:34:52 schrieb Pacho Ramos:
>> >
>> > Perhaps a stupid question, but: why is it a problem if the logs are
>> > linked rather than attached?
>>
>> Supposedly we always must attach files to bug reports to ensure they are
>> kept forever with that bug reports instead of relying on external
>> resources that could disappear in the future (or far future).
>
> It isn't (in my opinion) a problem *per se* if Diego does it the way he does
> it now. The reason being that *he* knows the logs should be available for a
> long time afterwards and takes care of that properly. So, Diego, I'm perfectly
> fine with accepting your bug reports, and I would be very glad if you also
> started tinderboxing again.

++

>
> Globally, on the long run it *is* not so nice to link the logs for the one
> reason that we need to teach our users to attach logs instead of linking them.
> (Since they do not automatically apply the same level of care.) Now if they
> keep stumbling on bugs where the logs are just linked instead of attached,
> this gets harder and harder. A case of "make a policy, expect everyone else to
> stick to it and go ahead with a bad example".
>

Agree, but IMO facilitating tinderboxing TODAY is much more important
than having a completely uniform policy TOMORROW, and I think you're
on the same page with this.

It might make sense to build a little script that goes looking for new
tinderbox bugs, fetches the logs, and attaches them.  This should by
no means be a blocker to doing runs.

If maintainers want to NEEDINFO or WONTFIX a tinderbox bug, well,
they'll be the ones picking up the pieces when the gcc upgrade moves
ahead.  Frankly, the tinderbox bugs that I've gotten from Diego have
been some of the most usefully-populated ones I've seen, and he
usually includes recommendations for best-practices/etc in them as
well.  I don't get why anybody wouldn't like seeing them.

--
Rich

Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[hasufell]

Rich Freeman:
> 
> If maintainers want to NEEDINFO or WONTFIX a tinderbox bug, well,
> they'll be the ones picking up the pieces when the gcc upgrade moves
> ahead.

We are all picking up the pieces.

> I don't get why anybody wouldn't like seeing them.
> 

I do, it's childish and uncollaborative behavior from that person
closing the bugs (any1 still wondering who we are talking about?). And
that behavior is tolerated. Are you saying you want to change something
about it?

Otherwise I don't see any progress here or any good reason why people
should try again.

Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Diego Elio Pettenò]

On 19 October 2014 16:57, hasufell <hasufell@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> If maintainers want to NEEDINFO or WONTFIX a tinderbox bug, well,
>> they'll be the ones picking up the pieces when the gcc upgrade moves
>> ahead.
>
> We are all picking up the pieces.
>
>> I don't get why anybody wouldn't like seeing them.
>>
>
> I do, it's childish and uncollaborative behavior from that person
> closing the bugs (any1 still wondering who we are talking about?). And
> that behavior is tolerated. Are you saying you want to change something
> about it?

So who wants to pick up the pieces now? Because I'm almost pissed off
enough to turn down the tinderbox and give a big FU to Gentoo already.
https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=527608

Diego Elio Pettenò — Flameeyes
flameeyes@flameeyes.eu — http://blog.flameeyes.eu/

Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Jeroen Roovers]

On Fri, 31 Oct 2014 16:28:56 +0000
Diego Elio Pettenò <flameeyes@flameeyes.eu> wrote:

> So who wants to pick up the pieces now? Because I'm almost pissed off
> enough to turn down the tinderbox and give a big FU to Gentoo already.
> https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=527608

Apparently Mr. Frysinger needs an education?


     jer

Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Rich Freeman]

On Fri, Oct 31, 2014 at 12:28 PM, Diego Elio Pettenò
<flameeyes@flameeyes.eu> wrote:
> On 19 October 2014 16:57, hasufell <hasufell@gentoo.org> wrote:
>>> If maintainers want to NEEDINFO or WONTFIX a tinderbox bug, well,
>>> they'll be the ones picking up the pieces when the gcc upgrade moves
>>> ahead.
>>
>> We are all picking up the pieces.
>>
>>> I don't get why anybody wouldn't like seeing them.
>>>
>>
>> I do, it's childish and uncollaborative behavior from that person
>> closing the bugs (any1 still wondering who we are talking about?). And
>> that behavior is tolerated. Are you saying you want to change something
>> about it?
>
> So who wants to pick up the pieces now? Because I'm almost pissed off
> enough to turn down the tinderbox and give a big FU to Gentoo already.
> https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=527608

I'm not sure who "owns" policy around bugzilla.  If nothing else I'm
happy to put this on the next Council agenda.  If QA or Comrel wants
to step in sooner they're welcome to, but if they're looking for a
policy to enforce the Council could probably provide one.

Self-contained bugs in general make sense, and I'm all for finding a
better solution than what the tinderbox currently supplies.  However,
until that solution comes along I think we're better off having
tinderbox runs than not having them.

If somebody took the time to systematically test my packages and the
biggest issue was that I had to fetch a URL, then I'd do them the
favor of fetching it and attaching the file myself, because I want to
know when my stuff breaks.  I can't always fix every bug as quickly as
I'd like to, but I'm not going to just close them and stick my head in
the sand.

Why are we all here anyway?  If we want to all play games I'm sure we
can make life miserable for each other, but frankly I'd rather spend
my time making my favorite distro better, and I can't imagine why else
anybody would be wasting their time reading my emails...  :)

--
Rich

Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[hasufell]

On 10/31/2014 05:58 PM, Jeroen Roovers wrote:
> On Fri, 31 Oct 2014 16:28:56 +0000
> Diego Elio Pettenò <flameeyes@flameeyes.eu> wrote:
> 
>> So who wants to pick up the pieces now? Because I'm almost pissed off
>> enough to turn down the tinderbox and give a big FU to Gentoo already.
>> https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=527608
> 
> Apparently Mr. Frysinger needs an education?
> 

Signs of his inability to collaborate in some situations have come up
repeatedly on this list, be it problems with crossdev/multilib, games
team and whatnot.

Most of these were either ignored or had to go through a council
decision. That's not really efficient and cannot work long term.

Do we treat some developers differently? And does all this social status
crap really improve collaboration overall?

Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Diego Elio Pettenò]

On 31 October 2014 22:38, hasufell <hasufell@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Signs of his inability to collaborate in some situations have come up
> repeatedly on this list, be it problems with crossdev/multilib, games
> team and whatnot.
>
> Most of these were either ignored or had to go through a council
> decision. That's not really efficient and cannot work long term.
>
> Do we treat some developers differently? And does all this social status
> crap really improve collaboration overall?

And we lost more than one developer in the process because of that.
And guess what? After someone reaching out to me off list telling me
to, essentially, work around him or swallow it, I'm more convinced
than ever that either someone else (Council? QA? the Pope?) fixes
this, or I'll add myself to that list.

Seriously, he essentially has been ignoring me altogether *when I was
voted the freaking QA lead*.

(To be fair, huge thanks to Rich and Jer for their help here, it does
feel good to know that at least some of the colleagues do have my
back.)

Diego Elio Pettenò — Flameeyes
flameeyes@flameeyes.eu — http://blog.flameeyes.eu/

Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Rich Freeman]

I'm going to speak generally - this is a list and not really the best
way of dealing with individuals.  If you think the principles apply to
you, feel free to apply them.

On Fri, Oct 31, 2014 at 7:50 PM, Diego Elio Pettenò
<flameeyes@flameeyes.eu> wrote:
> I'm more convinced than ever that either someone else (Council? QA?
> the Pope?) fixes this, or I'll add myself to that list.

The fundamental problem here is that we're a volunteer organization,
which means we're limited to the resources people offer us.  Sometimes
these resources are offered conditionally, and our choice can end up
being "take it" or "leave it."

I do tend to agree that accepting the gift with strings can cost you
more in the long term than just doing without.

The problem comes when somebody in a critical position wants to take a
hard stand on something.  You either end up making an exception for
them, relaxing policy for everybody, or risk being left in a hard
place if they choose to stop contributing.

Now, something that we have been trying to do is remove artificial
roadblocks.  For example, if somebody is standing in the way of others
contributing the Council can step in and tell the others that they can
go ahead and prevent anybody from interfering from them.  Examples of
this are somebody wants to add support for some feature to a bunch
packages and assume responsibility any issues, and a maintainer wants
to block them.

What we can't do is force somebody to contribute.  If somebody says
that if we don't do multilib their way, they'll stop being the only
libreoffice maintainer, and nobody else wants to maintain libreoffice,
then we are left in a hard place (completely contrived scenario).

We can stop people from interfering, but we can't make them contribute.

So, in a case like this we certainly could prevent somebody from
closing a bug, but we certainly can't force them to fix a bug.  We
could also block somebody from submitting tinderbox bugs without
attached logs, but we can't force them to run a tinderbox.

So, if there is a better way, I'm all ears for constructive
suggestions.  By constructive I mean that somebody who comes up with a
script that automatically retrieves build logs and attaches them to
bugs is being more helpful than somebody who says that somebody else
should come up with such a script, and so on.  That doesn't mean that
we can't talk about solutions before we build them - only that it
isn't helpful when we basically demand that others build them for us.

--
Rich

Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Ian Stakenvicius]

Sorry for top posting.  I volunteer to write something to get the logs attached to bugs.  I'll do it next week. Whether it be something the tinderbox can run or something separate that will use pybugz to find bugs and then attach whatever logs are pointed to by URLs, etc, I'll figure it out.

Sent from an iPhone, sorry for the HTML...

> On Oct 31, 2014, at 7:50 PM, Diego Elio Pettenò <flameeyes@flameeyes.eu> wrote:
> 
>> On 31 October 2014 22:38, hasufell <hasufell@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> Signs of his inability to collaborate in some situations have come up
>> repeatedly on this list, be it problems with crossdev/multilib, games
>> team and whatnot.
>> 
>> Most of these were either ignored or had to go through a council
>> decision. That's not really efficient and cannot work long term.
>> 
>> Do we treat some developers differently? And does all this social status
>> crap really improve collaboration overall?
> 
> And we lost more than one developer in the process because of that.
> And guess what? After someone reaching out to me off list telling me
> to, essentially, work around him or swallow it, I'm more convinced
> than ever that either someone else (Council? QA? the Pope?) fixes
> this, or I'll add myself to that list.
> 
> Seriously, he essentially has been ignoring me altogether *when I was
> voted the freaking QA lead*.
> 
> (To be fair, huge thanks to Rich and Jer for their help here, it does
> feel good to know that at least some of the colleagues do have my
> back.)
> 
> Diego Elio Pettenò — Flameeyes
> flameeyes@flameeyes.eu — http://blog.flameeyes.eu/
> 

Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Diego Elio Pettenò]

On 1 November 2014 00:18, Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:
> So, if there is a better way, I'm all ears for constructive
> suggestions.  By constructive I mean that somebody who comes up with a
> script that automatically retrieves build logs and attaches them to
> bugs is being more helpful than somebody who says that somebody else
> should come up with such a script, and so on.  That doesn't mean that
> we can't talk about solutions before we build them - only that it
> isn't helpful when we basically demand that others build them for us.

Let me try to be clear (once again) of what the problem is. Even just
spending time rewriting this irks me because I have written, repeated,
re-explained, described the problem a number of times, between bugs,
this ML and my blog ( https://blog.flameeyes.eu/tag/tinderbox ).

The problem with "it's trivial to do that in python so just do it" is
that first of all Python is not my language of choice, so the whole
infrastructure is currently not written in Python at all. And all the
people, including Luca, who promised they can convert it to Python in
no time, never delivered. Beside the point that, if it's so trivial
for somebody, I would expect it'll take them less time to provide me
with the tool, rather than complain about it.

Another suggestion that happens fairly often is "oh just do it after
opening the bug with a script", and the answer is -> no way. Because
right now it's all self contained in a browser for good reasons: I
open these bugs when I'm at work waiting for a meeting, at home
waiting to sleep, or while watching TV. I do it from laptops and
tablets, and if I have to start copy-pasting things between browser
and console to run a script, I'd rather just leave things broken
because it *is* too much work by the amount of bugs I open. And it's
not something I can do on a tablet or at work. Which would mean that
not only it'll take me more time , and I would also have less time
available. Not a good deal.

Since the bugs are opened through a pre-filled form template, it's not
easy for anything else to know what the bug is to attach logs to. One
alternative would be to have the app that I use to show me the logs
file the bug entirely for me. Unfortunately that means I'll have to
figure out how to secure the app, as right now, being just a
display-only thing, it's completely open to the Internet. And I'm sure
Infra would rather not have a tool open to the internet that can open
bugs with logs of many MBs attached. It will also slightly lower the
quality of bugs because either it needs to build its own form to fill
in for summary and blocking bugs, or it'll just go with the two
summaries I know for sure how to get from the log ("fails to build",
"fails tests"), so no more "foo[doc] fails to build" or "foo fails to
build with ncurses[tinfo]".

But let's reason a moment on the no-linked-logs policy: as Rich
pointed out already, the policy is there for a reason and that reason
is that we don't want people to submit bugs with pastebins or home
server logs because they are bound to go away. I link logs to Amazon,
which I pay for. Mike says it's unreasonable to expect me to pay
Amazon for them forever... I pay $1/mo for storing viewing an adding
the logs. And even that turned out to be actually an excess as I was
paying between $.12 and $.20 for storing EBS snapshots from long ago
that I never ended up removing. It's not even a rounding error at this
point.


Diego Elio Pettenò — Flameeyes
flameeyes@flameeyes.eu — http://blog.flameeyes.eu/

Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Diego Elio Pettenò]

On 1 November 2014 10:47, Diego Elio Pettenò <flameeyes@flameeyes.eu> wrote:
> But let's reason a moment on the no-linked-logs policy: as Rich
> pointed out already, the policy is there for a reason and that reason
> is that we don't want people to submit bugs with pastebins or home
> server logs because they are bound to go away. I link logs to Amazon,
> which I pay for. Mike says it's unreasonable to expect me to pay
> Amazon for them forever... I pay $1/mo for storing viewing an adding
> the logs. And even that turned out to be actually an excess as I was
> paying between $.12 and $.20 for storing EBS snapshots from long ago
> that I never ended up removing. It's not even a rounding error at this
> point.

And I forgot to add, to run the tinderbox, hosting the server costs me
$600/mo — and sure, I use it to stage the packages for a bunch of my
private servers too, and it runs fate instances for libav. But you can
probably note how the two numbers don't even come *close* to each
other.

Diego Elio Pettenò — Flameeyes
flameeyes@flameeyes.eu — http://blog.flameeyes.eu/

Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Pacho Ramos]

El sáb, 01-11-2014 a las 10:47 +0000, Diego Elio Pettenò escribió:
> On 1 November 2014 00:18, Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:
> > So, if there is a better way, I'm all ears for constructive
> > suggestions.  By constructive I mean that somebody who comes up with a
> > script that automatically retrieves build logs and attaches them to
> > bugs is being more helpful than somebody who says that somebody else
> > should come up with such a script, and so on.  That doesn't mean that
> > we can't talk about solutions before we build them - only that it
> > isn't helpful when we basically demand that others build them for us.
> 
> Let me try to be clear (once again) of what the problem is. Even just
> spending time rewriting this irks me because I have written, repeated,
> re-explained, described the problem a number of times, between bugs,
> this ML and my blog ( https://blog.flameeyes.eu/tag/tinderbox ).
[...]

Would be possible to change the script opening the bug reports to CC
somebody to the bugs assigned to vapier? For example, when metadata.xml
causes the bug assigned to him, the script could additionally CC other
people (like me) that could handle the build.log stuff 

Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[hasufell]

On 11/01/2014 01:18 AM, Rich Freeman wrote:
> 
> What we can't do is force somebody to contribute.  If somebody says
> that if we don't do multilib their way, they'll stop being the only
> libreoffice maintainer, and nobody else wants to maintain libreoffice,
> then we are left in a hard place (completely contrived scenario).
> 

Someone who doesn't want to contribute shouldn't have commit access in
the first place. And I think that's currently not the case.

However, people who regularly block or even just ignore contribution
processes/channels are a serious problem. More so if they are in
non-trivial positions. Whether they do it on purpose or not is secondary.
But this is definitely not about technicalities (like "should lua have a
pkgconfig file or not").
Every time this gets brought up someone says "oh, but we can't do
anything, because someone might be sad about it and quit gentoo". Uhm,
right. That's already happening, all the time.

What is worse is taking this "argument" as an excuse to not fix our
contribution culture, which is very bad on a lot of fronts. And every
time an incident like this happens... it gets even worse.

To be blunt with you, I think this is a matter of people having so much
respect for someone that they almost tolerate any misbehaviour.
And this behaviour spreads. It's a phenomenon we know from people like
Linus. Because he is smart after all and his insults are pretty funny.

It's not easy to emancipate oneself from the negativity in the
opensource world. It isn't caused by a particular group of people, but
by tolerating certain patterns of behaviour.

But there will be no improvement if we don't take such issues more
seriously. I don't really see that happening. It's something the
oldtimers have more power over than the council.

Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Rich Freeman]

On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 11:38 AM, hasufell <hasufell@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> But there will be no improvement if we don't take such issues more
> seriously. I don't really see that happening. It's something the
> oldtimers have more power over than the council.
>

In a community project, the folks with power are those doing the work.
The newest member of Gentoo can have more power to direct the course
of the distro than every oldtimer or council member there is, if they
just contribute more than them.

If the maintainer of package A or provider of service B is a pain to
work with, all it takes is for somebody else who is easier to work
with to maintain package A or provide service B.

In the absence of this, the only thing the Council can do is ask infra
to revoke somebody's commit/bugzilla/whatever access, which basically
leaves us in the same place that we'd be if folks quit, but I suppose
with the emotional satisfaction of being the one pushing everybody
around.

So, I'm more than happy when somebody steps up like axs and volunteers
to start converting links to attachments, or when somebody steps up to
take care of some @system package that only has one maintainer.

Otherwise, the best the council can really hope to do is keep
everybody out of each other's way, and we do that reasonably well.
After the last flare-up like this the Council voted that anybody can
maintain games without making them a part of the games herd.  So,
there are no barriers, but that isn't going to magically make a bunch
of games show up in the tree.  A year ago the Council voted that
maintainers have to stay out of the way if the systemd team wants to
add units to packages, and while it wasn't an issue the same would be
true about anybody wanting to add an openrc init.d script to a
package.  That doesn't magically make units or init.d scripts show up,
but it clears away blockades.

At some point when behavior is egregious you have to say enough is
enough, but somebody simply being unwilling to fix a bug or perform a
free service for Gentoo isn't really an offense in and of itself - we
get far more noise from the quarterly systemd flamewar.  Personally,
I'd prefer less drama, but this is the distro which was among the
first to support systemd, and the only one (AFAIK) to make eudev an
option.  If we're going to be about choice, then to some extent we
need to deal with the natural conflict that leads to.  Hopefully we
can all see that we're better off giving an inch so that we can reap
the benefits of each other's contributions...

--
Rich

Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Luca Barbato]

On 01/11/14 11:47, Diego Elio Pettenò wrote:
> The problem with "it's trivial to do that in python so just do it" is
> that first of all Python is not my language of choice, so the whole
> infrastructure is currently not written in Python at all. And all the
> people, including Luca, who promised they can convert it to Python in
> no time, never delivered. Beside the point that, if it's so trivial
> for somebody, I would expect it'll take them less time to provide me
> with the tool, rather than complain about it.

Sorry I hadn't time to do that and everything fell low in the todolist 
since the tinderbox was put on hold.

That said, we have enough people with python skills could we just pick 
few days and come up with a good solution?

lu

Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Andreas K. Huettel]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: Text/Plain, Size: 2319 bytes --]


> The newest member of Gentoo can have more power to direct the course
> of the distro than every oldtimer or council member there is, if they
> just contribute more than them.

> If the maintainer of package A or provider of service B is a pain to
> work with, all it takes is for somebody else who is easier to work
> with to maintain package A or provide service B.

Rich, I fully agree with the overall sentiment of the rest of your e-mail, but 
I think above statements are just not true. For both appropriate and 
inappropriate reasons. 

On one hand, if you are new to the project, nobody knows (and trusts) you yet. 
So, it's definitely not the best idea to immediately propose big plans to 
reform everything. You talk to people, show that you can handle things, earn 
trust, and one day some time later noone will complain if you alone properly 
and carefully handle restructuring the profile tree.

On the other hand, except for peaceful and cooperative places (kde team comes 
to my mind since that's where I "grew up" as a Gentoo dev, but I'm sure there 
are more examples), if as a newbie you pick the wrong things to work on you 
might as well immediately retire again- you'll get blocked out by 
territoriality. If you try to push things, well there's always someone who has 
the idea to invoke QA or comrel. ["Let's retire him, (he might be making sense 
but) he's making way too much noise." Luckily, that usually just does't 
happen.]

This has become much better in the recent past, but it's not ideal yet.

I would be very glad if all our technical geniuses working deep on the insides 
of Gentoo were to adopt new devs and teach them the intricacies. I would also 
be very glad if all our technical geniuses were to participate in IRC and 
mailing list discussions, so we can learn from them and understand why they do 
things. Yes I know it is occasionally a waste of time and I can well 
understand that after X years in Gentoo your enthusiasm for it disappears. No, 
that does not make it unnecessary.

Yes, in my opinion we are scaring off people.
No, adapting to all misbehaviour of current contributors is not an option.
Noone is irreplaceable.

-- 

Andreas K. Huettel
Gentoo Linux developer 
dilfridge@gentoo.org
http://www.akhuettel.de/


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Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Ian Stakenvicius]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

On 31/10/14 10:37 PM, Ian Stakenvicius wrote:
> Sorry for top posting.  I volunteer to write something to get the
> logs attached to bugs.  I'll do it next week. Whether it be
> something the tinderbox can run or something separate that will use
> pybugz to find bugs and then attach whatever logs are pointed to by
> URLs, etc, I'll figure it out.
> 

OK, i've cobbled something together that looks like it'll work.  I'll
be putting this thing on a cronjob on one of my systems, and hopefully
it'll be able to keep up with Diego's tinderbox runs and bug filing
with as little delay as possible.  I've already started running it on
all bugs filed by Diego after October 20th.

If anybody sees any issues with the attached build.log's, please let
me know by adding the bug with the issue to a tracker I made for this
purpose, bug 527870

Thanks,
Ian

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Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Peter Stuge]

Ian Stakenvicius wrote:
> OK, i've cobbled something together that looks like it'll work.

Cool! Thanks a lot for doing that.


//Peter

Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Pacho Ramos]

El sáb, 01-11-2014 a las 14:54 -0400, Ian Stakenvicius escribió:
> On 31/10/14 10:37 PM, Ian Stakenvicius wrote:
> > Sorry for top posting.  I volunteer to write something to get the
> > logs attached to bugs.  I'll do it next week. Whether it be
> > something the tinderbox can run or something separate that will use
> > pybugz to find bugs and then attach whatever logs are pointed to by
> > URLs, etc, I'll figure it out.
> > 
> 
> OK, i've cobbled something together that looks like it'll work.  I'll
> be putting this thing on a cronjob on one of my systems, and hopefully
> it'll be able to keep up with Diego's tinderbox runs and bug filing
> with as little delay as possible.  I've already started running it on
> all bugs filed by Diego after October 20th.
> 
> If anybody sees any issues with the attached build.log's, please let
> me know by adding the bug with the issue to a tracker I made for this
> purpose, bug 527870
> 
> Thanks,
> Ian
> 

At least for the bugs I have read, it looks to work nice. Thanks a
lot :D

Is the script placed somewhere? (for learning purposes :))

Thanks

Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Ian Stakenvicius]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

On 01/11/14 03:53 PM, Pacho Ramos wrote:
> El sáb, 01-11-2014 a las 14:54 -0400, Ian Stakenvicius escribió:
>> On 31/10/14 10:37 PM, Ian Stakenvicius wrote:
>>> Sorry for top posting.  I volunteer to write something to get
>>> the logs attached to bugs.  I'll do it next week. Whether it
>>> be something the tinderbox can run or something separate that
>>> will use pybugz to find bugs and then attach whatever logs are
>>> pointed to by URLs, etc, I'll figure it out.
>>> 
>> 
>> OK, i've cobbled something together that looks like it'll work.
>> I'll be putting this thing on a cronjob on one of my systems, and
>> hopefully it'll be able to keep up with Diego's tinderbox runs
>> and bug filing with as little delay as possible.  I've already
>> started running it on all bugs filed by Diego after October
>> 20th.
>> 
>> If anybody sees any issues with the attached build.log's, please
>> let me know by adding the bug with the issue to a tracker I made
>> for this purpose, bug 527870
>> 
>> Thanks, Ian
>> 
> 
> At least for the bugs I have read, it looks to work nice. Thanks a 
> lot :D
> 
> Is the script placed somewhere? (for learning purposes :))
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 


Not at the moment ; I'm going to want to do a fair bit of cleanup
before i let anyone else's eyes on it.. :)

It's just a bash script, though -- i use 'pybugz search' to get a list
of the bugs Diego's filed (using --offset and --limit to restrict the
list returned), get the content of each one, and if it has no
attachments but has a URL with 'https://tinderboxlogs' in the comment,
then i wget the URL to a temp file, strip the HTML out, and attach it
(compressing if necessary to save space) to the bug with 'pybugz attach'.

Add in a couple of files that lets me keep track of the current search
offset i should be using as well as the bug#'s the script has
processed and skipped, and that's about it.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Rich Freeman]

On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 2:30 PM, Andreas K. Huettel <dilfridge@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
>> The newest member of Gentoo can have more power to direct the course
>> of the distro than every oldtimer or council member there is, if they
>> just contribute more than them.
>
>> If the maintainer of package A or provider of service B is a pain to
>> work with, all it takes is for somebody else who is easier to work
>> with to maintain package A or provide service B.
>
> Rich, I fully agree with the overall sentiment of the rest of your e-mail, but
> I think above statements are just not true. For both appropriate and
> inappropriate reasons.

Well, I also get what you're saying, but I'm not sure that this is the
best place to draw the line...

>
> On the other hand, except for peaceful and cooperative places (kde team comes
> to my mind since that's where I "grew up" as a Gentoo dev, but I'm sure there
> are more examples), if as a newbie you pick the wrong things to work on you
> might as well immediately retire again- you'll get blocked out by
> territoriality. If you try to push things, well there's always someone who has
> the idea to invoke QA or comrel. ["Let's retire him, (he might be making sense
> but) he's making way too much noise." Luckily, that usually just does't
> happen.]
>
> This has become much better in the recent past, but it's not ideal yet.

Well, nothing is ever ideal, but as issues come up they are being
dealt with now.  I can't think of any situations where somebody has
been able to block out new contributors in the last year or two.
Sure, there have been a few attempts, but we've squashed them.

There is a lot we can do in the case of territoriality.  In such a
case we have somebody who is contributing, and all we need to do is
declare that their contributions are to be accepted.  There really is
nothing anybody can do to stop somebody from contributing except
reverts/etc, and doing that after the council establishes policy is
going to lead to losing commit privs.  Fortunately, it hasn't come to
that in quite a while.  I think that when push comes to shove people
who are standing in the way come to appreciate the situation they're
trying to promote.

However, this is not really the same sort of situation.  If somebody
was trying to submit their own tinderbox bugs and Diego was telling
them that he alone is allowed to run a tinderbox, then that would be
territoriality.  Such a move would really be silly though - people
build stuff and submit logs in bugs all the time, and a tinderbox is
just doing that on a larger scale.  Likewise, if somebody was offering
Mike patches to fix the bugs Diego is reporting and Mike was
unjustifiably turning them away, or especially if he was combative
with other devs willing to support those patches (and the patches were
reasonable), then that too would be territoriality, and all we need to
do is get Mike to stand aside.  Neither of these hypotheticals really
pertains here.  Diego isn't stopping anybody else from submitting bugs
in whatever format they wish, and Mike isn't preventing anybody from
fixing bugs.  Their actual technical contributions in these cases are
net-positive, or near-zero at worst (a dev closing a bug that they
aren't obligated to fix doesn't actually harm anybody unless somebody
else was going to come along and fix it).  Socially it would be nice
if we could all compromise, but that is harder to deal with.

It looks like axs has a workaround nearly ready which is likely to
make this issue somewhat moot.

I do agree that nobody is indispensable.  If there are specific
situations that really stress people to the point of quitting I would
like to hear about them BEFORE people throw in the towel.  In the end,
though, we do want to have a distro and not just a polite mailing
list, and that means that we need to appreciate everybody's
(often-silent) positive contributions, and not just focus on their
role in some recent conflict.

--
Rich

Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Diego Elio Pettenò]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2525 bytes --]

Excuse the top posting.

You don't need to strip the HTML. Change the extension to whatever.log and
it's already there in unmangled text.
On 2 Nov 2014 01:10, "Ian Stakenvicius" <axs@gentoo.org> wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA256
>
> On 01/11/14 03:53 PM, Pacho Ramos wrote:
> > El sáb, 01-11-2014 a las 14:54 -0400, Ian Stakenvicius escribió:
> >> On 31/10/14 10:37 PM, Ian Stakenvicius wrote:
> >>> Sorry for top posting.  I volunteer to write something to get
> >>> the logs attached to bugs.  I'll do it next week. Whether it
> >>> be something the tinderbox can run or something separate that
> >>> will use pybugz to find bugs and then attach whatever logs are
> >>> pointed to by URLs, etc, I'll figure it out.
> >>>
> >>
> >> OK, i've cobbled something together that looks like it'll work.
> >> I'll be putting this thing on a cronjob on one of my systems, and
> >> hopefully it'll be able to keep up with Diego's tinderbox runs
> >> and bug filing with as little delay as possible.  I've already
> >> started running it on all bugs filed by Diego after October
> >> 20th.
> >>
> >> If anybody sees any issues with the attached build.log's, please
> >> let me know by adding the bug with the issue to a tracker I made
> >> for this purpose, bug 527870
> >>
> >> Thanks, Ian
> >>
> >
> > At least for the bugs I have read, it looks to work nice. Thanks a
> > lot :D
> >
> > Is the script placed somewhere? (for learning purposes :))
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> >
>
>
> Not at the moment ; I'm going to want to do a fair bit of cleanup
> before i let anyone else's eyes on it.. :)
>
> It's just a bash script, though -- i use 'pybugz search' to get a list
> of the bugs Diego's filed (using --offset and --limit to restrict the
> list returned), get the content of each one, and if it has no
> attachments but has a URL with 'https://tinderboxlogs' in the comment,
> then i wget the URL to a temp file, strip the HTML out, and attach it
> (compressing if necessary to save space) to the bug with 'pybugz attach'.
>
> Add in a couple of files that lets me keep track of the current search
> offset i should be using as well as the bug#'s the script has
> processed and skipped, and that's about it.
>
>
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> Version: GnuPG v2
>
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> =LHOX
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>

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Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Pacho Ramos]

El sáb, 01-11-2014 a las 21:10 -0400, Ian Stakenvicius escribió:
[...]
> Not at the moment ; I'm going to want to do a fair bit of cleanup
> before i let anyone else's eyes on it.. :)
> 
> It's just a bash script, though -- i use 'pybugz search' to get a list
> of the bugs Diego's filed (using --offset and --limit to restrict the
> list returned), get the content of each one, and if it has no
> attachments but has a URL with 'https://tinderboxlogs' in the comment,
> then i wget the URL to a temp file, strip the HTML out, and attach it
> (compressing if necessary to save space) to the bug with 'pybugz attach'.
> 
> Add in a couple of files that lets me keep track of the current search
> offset i should be using as well as the bug#'s the script has
> processed and skipped, and that's about it.
> 
> 

How do you strip the html code? I was unsure about to do that :/

Thanks!

Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Diego Elio Pettenò]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 153 bytes --]

> How do you strip the html code? I was unsure about to do that :/

You should have asked. There is no need to strip. I upload both HTML and
text alike.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 195 bytes --]

Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Pacho Ramos]

El dom, 02-11-2014 a las 13:07 +0000, Diego Elio Pettenò escribió:
> 
> > How do you strip the html code? I was unsure about to do that :/
> 
> You should have asked. There is no need to strip. I upload both HTML
> and text alike. 
> 

Ah, ok. Anyway, if AxS can tell me how was doing that would be
interesting as who knows when could become useful to me in the future :)

Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Luca Barbato]

On 02/11/14 14:22, Pacho Ramos wrote:
> El dom, 02-11-2014 a las 13:07 +0000, Diego Elio Pettenò escribió:
>>
>>> How do you strip the html code? I was unsure about to do that :/
>>
>> You should have asked. There is no need to strip. I upload both HTML
>> and text alike.
>>
>
> Ah, ok. Anyway, if AxS can tell me how was doing that would be
> interesting as who knows when could become useful to me in the future :)
>
>
in python you can (ab)use BeautifulSoup.

Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Ian Stakenvicius]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

On 02/11/14 09:44 AM, Luca Barbato wrote:
> On 02/11/14 14:22, Pacho Ramos wrote:
>> El dom, 02-11-2014 a las 13:07 +0000, Diego Elio Pettenò
>> escribió:
>>> 
>>>> How do you strip the html code? I was unsure about to do that
>>>> :/
>>> 
>>> You should have asked. There is no need to strip. I upload both
>>> HTML and text alike.
>>> 
>> 
>> Ah, ok. Anyway, if AxS can tell me how was doing that would be 
>> interesting as who knows when could become useful to me in the
>> future :)
>> 
>> 
> in python you can (ab)use BeautifulSoup.
> 

Because the html tags used in this file are fairly limited, I just
dropped all instances of <.../> and then substituted the proper '<'
and '>' for the &lt; and &gt; tags.  sed, awk, etc. work fine for
this.  It doesn't work as a general-case solution, though.

However, i'm dropping that now to use the text form directly. Thanks
for the tip, Diego!

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Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[hasufell]

On 11/02/2014 03:08 AM, Rich Freeman wrote:
> 
> Well, nothing is ever ideal, but as issues come up they are being
> dealt with now.  I can't think of any situations where somebody has
> been able to block out new contributors in the last year or two.
> Sure, there have been a few attempts, but we've squashed them.
> 

You are being specific now. But the problem is not that specific. It
just manifests in specific conflicts. Are you saying the solution is to
fix these conflicts as they come up and don't worry about the reasons
they came up in the first place?

As I said. All that does is slow down the regression. It doesn't even
keep status quo.

Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Diego Elio Pettenò]

On 31 October 2014 09:28, Diego Elio Pettenò <flameeyes@flameeyes.eu> wrote:
> So who wants to pick up the pieces now? Because I'm almost pissed off
> enough to turn down the tinderbox and give a big FU to Gentoo already.
> https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=527608

More! https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=529788

Again, is somebody going to stand up and do something or can I shut
down my tinderbox and spend my free time playing Baldur's Gate?

Diego Elio Pettenò — Flameeyes
flameeyes@flameeyes.eu — http://blog.flameeyes.eu/

Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Rich Freeman]

On Wed, Nov 19, 2014 at 8:41 PM, Diego Elio Pettenò
<flameeyes@flameeyes.eu> wrote:
> On 31 October 2014 09:28, Diego Elio Pettenò <flameeyes@flameeyes.eu> wrote:
>> So who wants to pick up the pieces now? Because I'm almost pissed off
>> enough to turn down the tinderbox and give a big FU to Gentoo already.
>> https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=527608
>
> More! https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=529788
>
> Again, is somebody going to stand up and do something or can I shut
> down my tinderbox and spend my free time playing Baldur's Gate?
>

Guys, can we please give the volunteers who are going around uploading
logs time to do their jobs before we go closing bugs as invalid?  The
logs are going to get attached.  If somebody is in a mad rush to
actually resolve the bug (heaven forbid), then just click on the link.

Per the Council meeting:

"The council recommends that bugs from any developer-run tinderbox not
be marked invalid based on whether the logs are attached or pointed to
by a permanent URL.  The council also encourages efforts to automate
the attachment of tinderbox logs to improve the quality of the bugzilla
record."

Aye: blueness, dberkholz, dilfridge, creffet proxy for radhermit,
rich0, ulm, williamh

Anybody closing these bugs is going against council recommendation,
and we appreciate the efforts of mjo to improve our bug records.
Let's not go creating work for ourselves by interfering with efforts
to document bugs, and run a tinderbox.  I appreciate that the bug
wranglers add a GREAT deal of value to our bug reports in general, but
honestly I think they would do better to just let the scripts do their
jobs here.

In the interests of not micromanaging everybody and treating people
like children we're trying to avoid having a list of 50,000 policies
and rules everybody has to read and follow.  With efforts to
automatically upload logs, this SHOULD be a moot issue.

I'm sure this is all the work of well-intentioned individuals who just
didn't hear the news.  It probably wouldn't have hurt for me to post
the Council summary on the list.

Can we put this to rest already?

--
Rich

Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Ulrich Mueller]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 625 bytes --]

>>>>> On Wed, 19 Nov 2014, Diego Elio Pettenò wrote:

> More! https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=529788

> Again, is somebody going to stand up and do something or can I shut
> down my tinderbox and spend my free time playing Baldur's Gate?

http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/meeting-logs/20141111-summary.txt

"The council recommends that bugs from any developer-run tinderbox not
be marked invalid based on whether the logs are attached or pointed to
by a permanent URL. The council also encourages efforts to automate
the attachment of tinderbox logs to improve the quality of the
bugzilla record."

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Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Michał Górny]

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Dnia 2014-11-19, o godz. 17:41:53
Diego Elio Pettenò <flameeyes@flameeyes.eu> napisał(a):

> On 31 October 2014 09:28, Diego Elio Pettenò <flameeyes@flameeyes.eu> wrote:
> > So who wants to pick up the pieces now? Because I'm almost pissed off
> > enough to turn down the tinderbox and give a big FU to Gentoo already.
> > https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=527608
> 
> More! https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=529788
> 
> Again, is somebody going to stand up and do something or can I shut
> down my tinderbox and spend my free time playing Baldur's Gate?

Comrel, please either do something about vapier or reassign all his
packages (and team positions) to a volunteering proxy developer who will
handle human relations for him.

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny

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Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Anthony G. Basile]

On 11/20/14 04:37, Michał Górny wrote:
> Dnia 2014-11-19, o godz. 17:41:53
> Diego Elio Pettenò <flameeyes@flameeyes.eu> napisał(a):
>
>> On 31 October 2014 09:28, Diego Elio Pettenò <flameeyes@flameeyes.eu> wrote:
>>> So who wants to pick up the pieces now? Because I'm almost pissed off
>>> enough to turn down the tinderbox and give a big FU to Gentoo already.
>>> https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=527608
>> More! https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=529788
>>
>> Again, is somebody going to stand up and do something or can I shut
>> down my tinderbox and spend my free time playing Baldur's Gate?
> Comrel, please either do something about vapier or reassign all his
> packages (and team positions) to a volunteering proxy developer who will
> handle human relations for him.
>

Chill dude.

-- 
Anthony G. Basile, Ph.D.
Gentoo Linux Developer [Hardened]
E-Mail    : blueness@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP  : 1FED FAD9 D82C 52A5 3BAB  DC79 9384 FA6E F52D 4BBA
GnuPG ID  : F52D4BBA

Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Ian Stakenvicius]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

On 19/11/14 09:51 PM, Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 19, 2014 at 8:41 PM, Diego Elio Pettenò 
> <flameeyes@flameeyes.eu> wrote:
>> On 31 October 2014 09:28, Diego Elio Pettenò
>> <flameeyes@flameeyes.eu> wrote:
>>> So who wants to pick up the pieces now? Because I'm almost
>>> pissed off enough to turn down the tinderbox and give a big FU
>>> to Gentoo already. 
>>> https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=527608
>> 
>> More! https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=529788
>> 
>> Again, is somebody going to stand up and do something or can I
>> shut down my tinderbox and spend my free time playing Baldur's
>> Gate?
>> 
> 
> Guys, can we please give the volunteers who are going around
> uploading logs time to do their jobs before we go closing bugs as
> invalid?  The logs are going to get attached.  If somebody is in a
> mad rush to actually resolve the bug (heaven forbid), then just
> click on the link.
> 

My script is running every 10 minutes; I can do it more often than
that but I don't want to hammer b.g.o if I don't have to.

Also, as of now, it *does not* upload to bugs that are marked
RESOLVED.  I think I'll adjust that so it will upload to bugs marked
RESO/NEEDINFO (and re-open them), but please, ^^^

And finally, if anyone sees an issue, including if bugs are not
getting their attachments in a timely manner, please attach the bug to
tracker bug 527870 and I'll do my best to fix things.

Thanks,
Ian

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Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Ian Stakenvicius]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

On 20/11/14 09:47 AM, Ian Stakenvicius wrote:
> On 19/11/14 09:51 PM, Rich Freeman wrote:
>> On Wed, Nov 19, 2014 at 8:41 PM, Diego Elio Pettenò 
>> <flameeyes@flameeyes.eu> wrote:
>>> On 31 October 2014 09:28, Diego Elio Pettenò 
>>> <flameeyes@flameeyes.eu> wrote:
>>>> So who wants to pick up the pieces now? Because I'm almost 
>>>> pissed off enough to turn down the tinderbox and give a big
>>>> FU to Gentoo already. 
>>>> https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=527608
>>> 
>>> More! https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=529788
>>> 
>>> Again, is somebody going to stand up and do something or can I 
>>> shut down my tinderbox and spend my free time playing Baldur's 
>>> Gate?
>>> 
> 
>> Guys, can we please give the volunteers who are going around 
>> uploading logs time to do their jobs before we go closing bugs
>> as invalid?  The logs are going to get attached.  If somebody is
>> in a mad rush to actually resolve the bug (heaven forbid), then
>> just click on the link.
> 
> 
> My script is running every 10 minutes; I can do it more often than 
> that but I don't want to hammer b.g.o if I don't have to.
> 
> Also, as of now, it *does not* upload to bugs that are marked 
> RESOLVED.  I think I'll adjust that so it will upload to bugs
> marked RESO/NEEDINFO (and re-open them), but please, ^^^
> 
> And finally, if anyone sees an issue, including if bugs are not 
> getting their attachments in a timely manner, please attach the bug
> to tracker bug 527870 and I'll do my best to fix things.
> 
> Thanks, Ian
> 

Ok, added the RESO/NEEDINFO case, and bumped my polling time to 5
minute intervals.

Diego, please keep going, your efforts are still very much appreciated.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

["Paweł Hajdan, Jr."]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 266 bytes --]

On 11/20/14 5:04 PM, Ian Stakenvicius wrote:
> Ok, added the RESO/NEEDINFO case, and bumped my polling time to 5
> minute intervals.
> 
> Diego, please keep going, your efforts are still very much appreciated.

+1, and thanks Ian for your script!

Paweł


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Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Diego Elio Pettenò]

Before I reply with a simple four letter words let me restate one
thing and than that will be it, and my next move unless council/devrel
stops this for good my time will be spent better: playing Baldur's
Gate.

The problem is not that I don't know python. Because I do know python (now).
The problem is that pybugz DOES NOT SOLVE A FREAKING THING.

I scan between 100 to 500 logs a day, any second it takes me to open a
new bug adds to the likeliness I have no time to do so. Right now the
filing is done purely through the browser so my Bugzilla
authentication never leaves it. I get the failed log, I click on the
"open bug" button, it prefills it, I leave a proper summary to point
out what the problem is and block the proper bug.

If the app were to just open the bug for me, the app would have to
have the credentials, which means I have to have the app behind
authentication. And as I pointed out multiple time I have no time or
interest in supporting a properly authenticated app FOR ONE PERSON
REFUSING TO READ A LOG. Because sure, it's not an impossible amount of
work, but it's a disproportionate amount of work when only one person
requires it, and another 200 are perfectly fine with clicking on a
link to read a log.

Same thing with pybugz as a CLI tool; sure I could have it store a
copy of my credentials on my laptop and now copy-paste the bug ID
after opening and the log URL. But no thanks because it makes opening
a bug a >40 seconds operation and prone to more mistakes and, once
again, this is disproportioned to ONE person refusing to accept a
setup.

So really, I'm tired to be insulted, and this was the last drop. Goodbye.
Diego Elio Pettenò — Flameeyes
flameeyes@flameeyes.eu — http://blog.flameeyes.eu/


On 21 November 2014 07:51, "Paweł Hajdan, Jr." <phajdan.jr@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On 11/20/14 5:04 PM, Ian Stakenvicius wrote:
>> Ok, added the RESO/NEEDINFO case, and bumped my polling time to 5
>> minute intervals.
>>
>> Diego, please keep going, your efforts are still very much appreciated.
>
> +1, and thanks Ian for your script!
>
> Paweł
>

Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Michał Górny]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2213 bytes --]

Dnia 2014-11-20, o godz. 08:06:05
"Anthony G. Basile" <blueness@gentoo.org> napisał(a):

> On 11/20/14 04:37, Michał Górny wrote:
> > Dnia 2014-11-19, o godz. 17:41:53
> > Diego Elio Pettenò <flameeyes@flameeyes.eu> napisał(a):
> >
> >> On 31 October 2014 09:28, Diego Elio Pettenò <flameeyes@flameeyes.eu> wrote:
> >>> So who wants to pick up the pieces now? Because I'm almost pissed off
> >>> enough to turn down the tinderbox and give a big FU to Gentoo already.
> >>> https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=527608
> >> More! https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=529788
> >>
> >> Again, is somebody going to stand up and do something or can I shut
> >> down my tinderbox and spend my free time playing Baldur's Gate?
> > Comrel, please either do something about vapier or reassign all his
> > packages (and team positions) to a volunteering proxy developer who will
> > handle human relations for him.
> >
> 
> Chill dude.

You should probably know that telling someone angry to 'chill dude'
only increases the anger. On the other hand, telling that to someone
who's not angry is meaningless. And I'm just frustrated because I have
a lot of work on Gentoo.

The obvious fact is that Gentoo is undermanned. The non-obvious part is
that many developers are retiring or decreasing their activity because
of the growing frustration. One of the major sources of frustration is
Mike's behavior -- lack of respect for Council and other authorities,
complete ignorance of rules and good taste, thoughtless committing
without proper reviews of warnings, writing poor quality code
because 'why do you care'...

So sure, he's doing a lot, he has skills etc. but in the end, *I* end
up having more work on my shoulders because of him. Because developers
who could've helped me don't want to work on Gentoo anymore. Because he
committed some untested crap and we have to clean up the mess (see
libltdl for a late example). Because someone will finally have to clean
up after him, and as far as I know, that someone will have to be me
because nobody else will do it.

And yes, I'm waiting for some free time to redo the toolchain.

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny

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Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Anthony G. Basile]

On 11/21/14 18:05, Michał Górny wrote:
> And yes, I'm waiting for some free time to redo the toolchain. 

That I will help you with.

-- 
Anthony G. Basile, Ph.D.
Gentoo Linux Developer [Hardened]
E-Mail    : blueness@gentoo.org
GnuPG FP  : 1FED FAD9 D82C 52A5 3BAB  DC79 9384 FA6E F52D 4BBA
GnuPG ID  : F52D4BBA

[gentoo-dev] Re: more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Duncan]

Michał Górny posted on Sat, 22 Nov 2014 00:05:09 +0100 as excerpted:

> Dnia 2014-11-20, o godz. 08:06:05 "Anthony G. Basile"
> <blueness@gentoo.org> napisał(a):
> 
>> On 11/20/14 04:37, Michał Górny wrote:
>> > Dnia 2014-11-19, o godz. 17:41:53 Diego Elio Pettenò
>> > <flameeyes@flameeyes.eu> napisał(a):
>> >
>> >> On 31 October 2014 09:28, Diego Elio Pettenò
>> >> <flameeyes@flameeyes.eu> wrote:
>> >>> So who wants to pick up the pieces now? Because I'm almost pissed
>> >>> off enough to turn down the tinderbox and give a big FU to Gentoo
>> >>> already.
>> >>> https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=527608
>> >> More! https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=529788
>> >>
>> >> Again, is somebody going to stand up and do something or can I shut
>> >> down my tinderbox and spend my free time playing Baldur's Gate?
>> > Comrel, please either do something about vapier or reassign all his
>> > packages (and team positions) to a volunteering proxy developer who
>> > will handle human relations for him.
>> >
>> >
>> Chill dude.
> 
> You should probably know that telling someone angry to 'chill dude' only
> increases the anger. On the other hand, telling that to someone who's
> not angry is meaningless. And I'm just frustrated because I have a lot
> of work on Gentoo.
> 
> The obvious fact is that Gentoo is undermanned. The non-obvious part is
> that many developers are retiring or decreasing their activity because
> of the growing frustration. One of the major sources of frustration is
> Mike's behavior -- lack of respect for Council and other authorities,
> complete ignorance of rules and good taste, thoughtless committing
> without proper reviews of warnings, writing poor quality code because
> 'why do you care'...

While it pains me to say this, unfortunately it looks like we have 
another "toxic person" situation to deal with, with all the implications 
that come with it.  Maybe it's time to deal with it.  Best wishes to 
those on the council ATM, however they go.  It's not an easy job in the 
best circumstances and unfortunately, we're not talking the best 
circumstances ATM.  However it resolves, they're going to need wisdom and 
guts and social skills.  We can all hope/pray to $DEITY/$FATES/$HIGHER-
POWERS they have what's required, because the bandages applied to date 
are clearly no longer working.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

Re: [gentoo-dev] more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Tom Wijsman]

On Fri, 21 Nov 2014 16:32:15 +0000
Diego Elio Pettenò <flameeyes@flameeyes.eu> wrote:

> So really, I'm tired to be insulted, and this was the last drop.
> Goodbye. Diego Elio Pettenò — Flameeyes

+1!

Given our invested time; it's not the lack of encouragement, but rather
the presence of discouragement that sets up for unpleasant moments.

Every drop is one too much...

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Tom Wijsman]

On Sat, 22 Nov 2014 00:34:33 +0000 (UTC)
Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net> wrote:

> While it pains me to say this, unfortunately it looks like we have 
> another "toxic person" situation to deal with, with all the
> implications that come with it. Maybe it's time to deal with it.

Toxic wars have casualties; in one of the sides, or in both of them.

IOTW; you're already dealing with it, you can only change the outcome.

> Best wishes to those on the council ATM, however they go.  It's not
> an easy job in the best circumstances and unfortunately, we're not
> talking the best circumstances ATM. However it resolves, they're
> going to need wisdom and guts and social skills.

Ignoramus et ignorabimus.

IOTW; you can't see the future, gut feeling play a very big role.

> We can all hope/pray to $DEITY/$FATES/$HIGHER- POWERS they have
> what's required, because the bandages applied to date are clearly no
> longer working.

Band-aids don't fix bullet holes.

IOTW; while it may or may not change the outcome, war is a real threat.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Rich Freeman]

On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 4:21 PM, Tom Wijsman <TomWij@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Sat, 22 Nov 2014 00:34:33 +0000 (UTC)
> Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net> wrote:
>
>> While it pains me to say this, unfortunately it looks like we have
>> another "toxic person" situation to deal with, with all the
>> implications that come with it. Maybe it's time to deal with it.
>
> Toxic wars have casualties; in one of the sides, or in both of them.
>
> IOTW; you're already dealing with it, you can only change the outcome.
>

Can you be clear as to what you're recommending?

Are you suggesting that instead of trying to mediate between people
who don't get a long, it would be better to just pick one or the other
as the winner and boot the other out?

One of the challenges here is that if we were talking about just one
productive person who tended to drive everybody away that would be one
thing.  The problem is that we have a lot of productive people who
have different sorts of personality quirks.  They range from blowing
up in public, to constant passive-aggression, to just silently doing
their own thing completely ignoring any input whatsoever.  I'm sure I
missed a few, like writing excessively-long emails.  :)

I guess one of the advantages of a model where devs turn into
reviewers instead of authors is that you can prioritize people skills
since their main role isn't to actually write the code so much as to
coordinate things.  However, this assumes that people would still
contribute in such a model.

--
Rich

[gentoo-dev] Re: more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Duncan]

Rich Freeman posted on Wed, 26 Nov 2014 16:52:07 -0500 as excerpted:

> On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 4:21 PM, Tom Wijsman <TomWij@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> On Sat, 22 Nov 2014 00:34:33 +0000 (UTC)
>> Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>>> While it pains me to say this, unfortunately it looks like we have
>>> another "toxic person" situation to deal with, with all the
>>> implications that come with it. Maybe it's time to deal with it.
>>
>> Toxic wars have casualties; in one of the sides, or in both of them.
>>
>> IOTW; you're already dealing with it, you can only change the outcome.
>>
>>
> Can you be clear as to what you're recommending?

I'm not sure if that question was of me or of Tom or of all readers...

My operating assumption is that what I see is the tip of the iceberg.  
I'm not on core or on IRC, and while I sometimes read the council IRC 
logs, I've only caught the summaries a couple of times in the last year 
or so, so there's /certainly/ more going on than I see.

So I'm not in a position to have a recommendation, only to worry, because 
it's my distro in the balance! =8^0

Tho I /can/ say I /seriously/ appreciate your effort in particular.  You 
seem to be on the more active and visible side in the council, and more 
than anyone else, I see you constantly trying to play mediator and 
peacemaker.  Surely it can't be easy, and at times I'm sure it looks and 
indeed might be hopeless, but /somebody/ has got to do it because even 
where it doesn't work it's a cryin' shame not to try, and for whatever my 
perspective is worth, I've never seen your effort be without merit or 
your opinion not worth giving considerable thought, because often your 
posts consider points I hadn't thought of, or did in passing but 
incorrectly passed over without appropriate consideration of the merits.

> Are you suggesting that instead of trying to mediate between people who
> don't get a long, it would be better to just pick one or the other as
> the winner and boot the other out?

There comes a point at which failure to take positive action of some 
sort, including kicking people out if it comes to that, ends up being 
action of its own.  If it's one "him or me", my experience is it's the 
person making the demand that should, and usually does, go.  If however 
it's the same "him" on the other end of multiple such instances, at some 
point the question must be asked where the problem ultimately resides.

I won't pretend to have an answer and I'm glad I'm not the one in the 
position to make those decisions, but, well, there's some history of 
exceptionalism here, bending the rules and finding technical solutions 
where people with lessor stature with more minor violations have been out 
on their ear, because yes, there /is/ quite some valuable contribution at 
stake here, and the person in question is not only extremely technically 
talented, but also, apparently extremely adept at finding and walking the 
edge when it suits him.

We've had that situation before, and ultimately I think it ended up best 
for all parties when that personality was told their contribution could 
continue if they wanted, but it could no longer be as a gentoo dev.  I 
guess it's not a secret who I'm talking about, ciaranm.  And yes, I think 
it /has/ been better for both him and /gentoo/ the way it turned out, as 
it freed both sides from a relationship that simply was no longer 
workable, and allowed creating one where both sides could and did still 
benefit from the contributions of the other, while now separated by 
enough distance and with each side having the ability to walk now 
whenever they wanted, that it actually worked. =:^)

The ideal here would be to find a similar both-sides-workable 
relationship, but the man that can describe both what that might be and 
how best to get from here to there... if he exists... surely can be used 
in more worldwide consequence negotiations such as the Iranian nuclear 
talks or the Ukrainian situation, or even the Debian systemd thing that 
unfortunately seems to be tearing them apart ATM, and probably doesn't 
have the time for Gentoo! =:^\

> One of the challenges here is that if we were talking about just one
> productive person who tended to drive everybody away that would be one
> thing.  The problem is that we have a lot of productive people who have
> different sorts of personality quirks.

Indeed.  Quite the illustrative list you had, too.  Like I said I'm glad 
you and the rest of council are dealing with it, not me, and my thoughts 
are with you, hoping for wisdom.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Luca Barbato]

On 26/11/14 22:52, Rich Freeman wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 4:21 PM, Tom Wijsman <TomWij@gentoo.org> wrote:
>> On Sat, 22 Nov 2014 00:34:33 +0000 (UTC)
>> Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net> wrote:
>>
>>> While it pains me to say this, unfortunately it looks like we have
>>> another "toxic person" situation to deal with, with all the
>>> implications that come with it. Maybe it's time to deal with it.
>>
>> Toxic wars have casualties; in one of the sides, or in both of them.
>>
>> IOTW; you're already dealing with it, you can only change the outcome.
>>
>
> Can you be clear as to what you're recommending?
>
> Are you suggesting that instead of trying to mediate between people
> who don't get a long, it would be better to just pick one or the other
> as the winner and boot the other out?

You are missing the point completely.

> One of the challenges here is that if we were talking about just one
> productive person who tended to drive everybody away that would be one
> thing.  The problem is that we have a lot of productive people who
> have different sorts of personality quirks.

This is not a matter of quirks. It is not a *quirk* making a mess of 
other people work and doing that repeatedly.

It is *not* getting along or not, it is having one side causing damage 
and not being accounted for that for reasons that are and will make us 
bleed contributors.

And what annoys me the most is that the issue would had been solved by 
_fixing_ the bugzilla setup but apparently nobody had the time or the 
will, me included, mostly since I do not dabble in perl.

lu

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Rich Freeman]

On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 4:22 AM, Luca Barbato <lu_zero@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On 26/11/14 22:52, Rich Freeman wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 4:21 PM, Tom Wijsman <TomWij@gentoo.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Sat, 22 Nov 2014 00:34:33 +0000 (UTC)
>>> Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> While it pains me to say this, unfortunately it looks like we have
>>>> another "toxic person" situation to deal with, with all the
>>>> implications that come with it. Maybe it's time to deal with it.
>>>
>>>
>>> Toxic wars have casualties; in one of the sides, or in both of them.
>>>
>>> IOTW; you're already dealing with it, you can only change the outcome.
>>>
>>
>> Can you be clear as to what you're recommending?
>>
>> Are you suggesting that instead of trying to mediate between people
>> who don't get a long, it would be better to just pick one or the other
>> as the winner and boot the other out?
>
>
> You are missing the point completely.

You replied to two questions seeking more information with a statement
that I don't seem to have all the information.  I wouldn't have asked
if I didn't already agree with you before I posted it.  :)

The rest of your post was appreciated.

--
Rich

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Matthias Dahl]

On 26/11/14 22:52, Rich Freeman wrote:

> Are you suggesting that instead of trying to mediate between people
> who don't get a long, it would be better to just pick one or the other
> as the winner and boot the other out?
> 
> One of the challenges here is that if we were talking about just one
> productive person who tended to drive everybody away that would be one
> thing.  The problem is that we have a lot of productive people who
> have different sorts of personality quirks.  They range from blowing
> up in public, to constant passive-aggression, to just silently doing
> their own thing completely ignoring any input whatsoever.  I'm sure I
> missed a few, like writing excessively-long emails.  :)

Sorry for that wall of quoted text. IMHO, it is not about looking who is
right or wrong... or kicking people out. As others have said so before,
you always try to be a voice of reason and neutrality. You try to find a
middle-ground. Which is perfectly fine and very commendable.

But here is the thing (imho): There are limits to that and how far you
can go and get with that approach. You have to recognize the point where
someone is taking "advantage" of the situation because he feels like he
has become indispensable or simply knows there won't be any consequences
to his actions. You also have to realize that the obvious and vocal
misbehavior of a single person can pretty much damage the
reputation/"attractiveness" of a project for others... even if there are
100 times more people that actually are angels. ;-)

No matter how undermanned a project is, structures and rules are still
very important. If everyone can actually do as he likes (or even just a
select few, which might be even worse) that will tear down a project in
the long-run since others will feel "demoted" or unappreciated due to
the obvious unbalanced treatment of members. I know, I would... and that
is only human.

Personally, I have thought many times about joining the dev ranks (and
even made a few select steps in the past) but the atmosphere on the list
sometimes and the behavior of select few individuals is not really as
inviting. This together with the above... well... you get the picture.

What I am trying to say is: Catering to everyone's needs and wishes is a
very admirable goal. Keeping devs in the boat as well. But those goals
should not mean rules are not enforced or approved, nor structures put
in place. I, for one, never understood why it was not mandatory to be
subscribed to the dev list at least for every dev. I know the arguments
that have been posted to the list about this but still, just because it
is open source (free) work that "we" all do for fun, does not mean there
cannot be some commitments/responsibilities that come with it.

Last but not least: I appreciate everyone's work and I love Gentoo and
have probably used it for over 10 years and more by now. I feel rather
sad seeing devs go and I even more so when someone is actually kicked
out... but that is just the way of life and the latter is unfortunately
sometimes necessary for the health of the overall project.

--
Matthias

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: more help needed with gcc-4.8 stabilization, chromium starts heavily using C++11

[Tom Wijsman]

On Wed, 26 Nov 2014 16:52:07 -0500
Rich Freeman <rich0@gentoo.org> wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 4:21 PM, Tom Wijsman <TomWij@gentoo.org>
> wrote:
> > On Sat, 22 Nov 2014 00:34:33 +0000 (UTC)
> > Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@cox.net> wrote:
> >
> >> While it pains me to say this, unfortunately it looks like we have
> >> another "toxic person" situation to deal with, with all the
> >> implications that come with it. Maybe it's time to deal with it.
> >
> > Toxic wars have casualties; in one of the sides, or in both of them.
> >
> > IOTW; you're already dealing with it, you can only change the
> > outcome.
> >
> 
> Can you be clear as to what you're recommending?

To look at the outcome and shape it for the better, whichever way fits.

> Are you suggesting that instead of trying to mediate between people
> who don't get a long, it would be better to just pick one or the other
> as the winner and boot the other out?

"..., or in both of them"; and to be complete, let me add "or neither".

> One of the challenges here is that if we were talking about just one
> productive person who tended to drive everybody away that would be one
> thing.  The problem is that we have a lot of productive people who
> have different sorts of personality quirks.  They range from blowing
> up in public, to constant passive-aggression, to just silently doing
> their own thing completely ignoring any input whatsoever.  I'm sure I
> missed a few, like writing excessively-long emails.  :)

The challenge lies in how far to push and/or hold back people and/or
their content; exploring the spectrum between active and passive
moderation, as well as the different types of warnings and actions.
One or more clear positive messages, followed by an action of 24h, ...

> I guess one of the advantages of a model where devs turn into
> reviewers instead of authors is that you can prioritize people skills
> since their main role isn't to actually write the code so much as to
> coordinate things.  However, this assumes that people would still
> contribute in such a model.

It also assumes the model to change attitude.