From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 96BEC13832E for ; Fri, 19 Aug 2016 07:49:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 19058E0B76; Fri, 19 Aug 2016 07:49:34 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-qk0-f182.google.com (mail-qk0-f182.google.com [209.85.220.182]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2B81BE0B68 for ; Fri, 19 Aug 2016 07:49:32 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-qk0-f182.google.com with SMTP id v123so39111436qkh.2 for ; Fri, 19 Aug 2016 00:49:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=vLokFn7gSucU4rT149orkmedHaVmHsiiZ81r/ATY/EM=; b=oBS3QaBsDIC1lkTLUWH3Uv+715z3tXSBa80o/iGtfEQcGvOyyHRzSqX9D81qSsrrIY J8jgQqkU+DQ6SzDk9TXE3ljanPORj0duPyHNHLh6j4rm+0tF5aRFkdY2Jf3fezo49z0y kYuc413NwkDDPzyuo7Rym/woCtMwycBjiv0YwD72Vwg1fEajDXSMj30BHz99QMwff8Tb 0UPVAw/pmRoplTljyFieZgLr1bAWfXj+8HRObVgT2sIIQZwcNnPI+sk8NqGs/lKoO6V+ EVwxvmbPGZ7KsLUop+4pweC63nnUwzB88Z7AAPcGzQA1ouv2Cksyd3Iw0v0uRZ4aMrev 0M7g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=vLokFn7gSucU4rT149orkmedHaVmHsiiZ81r/ATY/EM=; b=mrZJXbbhpjdkLsmtvkeolnYd3IJxHDdRtBwHW6N+ZoheoDB68d+ijmlNyhQJOHa1nb l122MPGzQhX4D7FNmmAFtJ8FeTvN4cOYQWFuIwi64CoVkjmVRivvXe4OacLoyJQyhFZJ zRWRGVUtzts1bGsX2bvEdXKRns6AXqh6MPNePadfPydo5jHzcXJcfbJh+0uRKqvSA68h GL0OsX8gzs+xb7zu62TdrMazoMrRNIxOGcQF3tt2MPDYRIn7Abx690PHVjeQ+/NYQ86A 8bf/IRLx0QEeujpNwCh5/vqe4ys4jSFT+/hYMrJUa7wR3ejW2DD0xcG0S/a2+s/lRFQm V5eA== X-Gm-Message-State: AEkoouv6E1cNlrCB5EmrHg2N7p+c4u58NPzPCnpBgZMSL+pBjCTOAvr9XQ6YuLMVFkRx6ZZFrh37IZ4iGx3Fug== X-Received: by 10.55.43.130 with SMTP id r2mr7614970qkr.223.1471592971557; Fri, 19 Aug 2016 00:49:31 -0700 (PDT) Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: freemanrich@gmail.com Received: by 10.140.40.36 with HTTP; Fri, 19 Aug 2016 00:49:30 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20160819065844.0463ff8d.mgorny@gentoo.org> References: <20160817223742.6ccff657.mgorny@gentoo.org> <20160818134342.8f572dc789eb8e5692ddeb1f@gentoo.org> <20160818134712.2dcd86b2@abudhabi.paradoxon.rec> <20160818152116.16060257@portable> <20160819065844.0463ff8d.mgorny@gentoo.org> From: Rich Freeman Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2016 03:49:30 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: RIzHi8DxTEhQmCpBWQQ9jhFsw-8 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] Developers, please work on underlinking issues! To: gentoo-dev Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Archives-Salt: 8513d27c-9785-43c7-b325-05f2b3f8e2a2 X-Archives-Hash: 970d12ac4b8b13fc938182dd6c0fb997 On Fri, Aug 19, 2016 at 12:58 AM, Micha=C5=82 G=C3=B3rny wrote: > On Thu, 18 Aug 2016 15:21:16 +0200 > Alexis Ballier wrote: > >> On Thu, 18 Aug 2016 08:13:14 -0400 >> Rich Freeman wrote: >> >> > If you just check your packages occassionally to make sure they build >> > with gold it completely achieves the goal, and it will actually result >> > in fewer bugs using the non-gold linker as well. >> >> That's what a tinderbox is for. The only QA problem I see here is that >> QA doesn't automate that kind of checks anymore since Diego left. Maybe >> QA should ask Toralf to run a ld.gold tinderbox and avoid asking people >> to randomly test random packages ? > > Yes, tinderboxing makes a lot of sense if the bugs are afterwards > ignored by package maintainers. Or in the best case, the maintainer > tells reporter (Toralf) to file the bug upstream. > TBH, these are really two different problems. 1. I think raising awareness of underlinking is good. 2. I think encouraging developers to test their own packages with the gold linker is good, because it helps accomplish #1, and increases their awareness in general. 3. I think that having a tinderbox systematically testing using the gold linker is also good. 4. I think that hitting devs with a cluebat when they ignore valid bugs is good. The flip side of this is that we're not necessarily better off if maintainers just abandon packages because they have terrible build systems. At some point you need to work with them. However, if they're not willing to at least stick in a slot operator dependency when asked to, then sure we should have a talk with them. (A slot op dep will of course help by triggering rebuilds, but it doesn't actually directly fix the underlinking issue, which would require fixing the build system.) I think the big thing is acknowledging that packages that are missing dependencies or which are underlinked are defective. Sure, it would be nice if somebody else came along and helped find our mistakes. However, that in itself doesn't excuse us from having made them in the first place. And it certainly doesn't excuse giving people a hard time when they politely point them out. --=20 Rich