From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from lists.gentoo.org (pigeon.gentoo.org [208.92.234.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by finch.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 996051382C5 for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2018 12:55:50 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pigeon.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 18ED9E0942; Tue, 27 Mar 2018 12:55:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-pg0-x234.google.com (mail-pg0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pigeon.gentoo.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A6173E08FA for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2018 12:55:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pg0-x234.google.com with SMTP id i124so1148853pgc.10 for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2018 05:55:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to; bh=mNWmUKD2qgKdSvQgj0VGPSVvO9zN0Lbw5P8aFCwpENU=; b=e51XAPNX+CY6+JTvOlS8uXuEmyoUzbuqlIIrM1p9oEttz3LxX5u37cmQUNGHRCh2rK YeYY0MFDfpWnDVhvmFLwVKWAcljIMa52VHKcCpCb0RjWkrzlicruhfPB8ysfKXnAqe3B N93AeauJO5CR9mhdxaNWMmORoTKZkbT1jSzG5y7NTRsetMBAGirHcqG7gqLGIr4vfitz pO8WI98vDAMqGaVPLNYaU6HwtzDoJ+vCVP0pJeRluCJ4RpvFI07hXmkovKkUiSNc8QXv W6CsV0ihVVkzkkmbkx63B9K3mEa7L6DbVTEWaAt1HotudnsexAAmEiCue30O4yp7aG/S cJXw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to; bh=mNWmUKD2qgKdSvQgj0VGPSVvO9zN0Lbw5P8aFCwpENU=; b=ZADbUiatLNZ1+Qz735kEpZKHjyqN6Kwn90Rab9ykmD9GQDPnLayxrL3034XJKE6aqa 9ULpvlcd4ne31RiRClSXWFHuC7a0if5FpQ01MhsYGPiDvwlgiMSRowIEAKwEya+9+Gzq yn9na/8Y11v/JYNGqmWh5l/j+mrCbBv51noj3BBY49AgiKjnMT3kmIdXlgruToHCaBvV ZJ4lxEKHS1t9TQZnaEPMupxbmKodB41mcOI9qu/JErVzp+6RI2DpykeN8itaSYQXl/Mg 2qALxlU2/3KPATT00FgeywUtH9zruTTGxbUeQ/2Z8WxbpPlSQ3LgqSoNpWM07kdF+MwQ p0yg== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7GTva7s2EbHuGvaOMoOtgvYTGOQ1kbP9+rXFXXUFWHGWjhsyMhP sSuFTUmpxnWYoZGliGKOFLo+I7fllu4e9C4yjoPFEA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELtf9yOhZvZzOifJeQeXosDkldG0iSSabcsVgb6B7+J6/ogcO3c+c5M7sOH+m9/oTSEncgPTs6l1l1FI9kGJGgs= X-Received: by 10.98.232.25 with SMTP id c25mr13422174pfi.35.1522155341842; Tue, 27 Mar 2018 05:55:41 -0700 (PDT) Precedence: bulk List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org Reply-to: gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: freemanrich@gmail.com Received: by 10.236.174.22 with HTTP; Tue, 27 Mar 2018 05:55:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <4aab96fa-0edb-6a28-791e-28e2103f2a30@gentoo.org> <0818a5b0-cc1e-403f-6c08-1285999de30f@gentoo.org> <20180320160316.GA5785@whubbs1.gaikai.biz> <87605qs3pi.fsf@gentoo.org> From: Rich Freeman Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2018 08:55:40 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: jYCWc2FTBQ38MBunorV1Wq64x4k Message-ID: Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Mailing list moderation and community openness To: gentoo-dev Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Archives-Salt: c7bb937c-ff16-48cb-8878-7ac4507c29ee X-Archives-Hash: 22de243f701b1fd67bd557e79e879f0c On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 3:34 AM, Martin Vaeth wrote: > > It is the general attitude: Does Gentoo welcome contributions > or want to make their developers live in an ivory tower? > > It is about openness vs. isolation. > I'm pretty sure most developers, myself included, want to welcome contributions. Much of the concern is that the lists have been turning into endless arguing over things like very topic. If a newcomer comes along and reads your post, they're going to get the impression that the developers live in an ivory tower. Why would somebody want to contribute to Gentoo in the first place if that is their first impression? Before it was the debate over mailing list policy it was a debate over discipline policies. Apparently developers live in an ivory tower and like to kick people out of the tower as well. In that particular debate the people most informed about what was actually happening were forbidden by policy from explaining what was going on, which basically left everybody who knew nothing of the details to spin conspiracy theories. It is natural that people are going to disagree on some of these issues. The problem is when it turns into a personal attack or hyperbole, which IMO the part I quoted falls into. The intent isn't to stifle debate/discussion. Whitelisting vs blacklisting on a mailing list have obvious pros/cons, and you made a legitimate point in the second half of your email (one that was hardly unknown to the Council I'm sure). The problem becomes when we try to attach motives to everybody else's actions. It isn't enough to point out the pros/cons of whitelisting/blacklisting/etc. Now we need to talk about "ivory towers" and "attitude" and in other posts "cabals" and so on. This kind of language can be demotivating because it demonizes those trying to fix things no matter what they do. Are they promoting "ivory towers" or are they allowing "toxic people" to attack new contributors (which also hardly is welcoming to new contributors)? And then everybody feels like they have to lead some kind of revolution to save Gentoo from itself. A lot of this comes down to considering that most people in these debates probably are well-intended. -- Rich