[gentoo-dev] Empty project: Desktop

[gentoo-dev] Empty project: Desktop

[Pacho Ramos]

Now https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Desktop

Well, it seems that it's only "containing" other subprojects... but I
am unsure if we really need it. Anyway, he is now empty

Re: [gentoo-dev] Empty project: Desktop

[NP-Hardass]

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On 08/06/2016 04:31 AM, Pacho Ramos wrote:
> Now https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Desktop
> 
> Well, it seems that it's only "containing" other subprojects... but I
> am unsure if we really need it. Anyway, he is now empty
> 
> 
> 

I think it makes sense to keep desktop environments in a logical
grouping.  There isn't a need for an overarching control structure right
now, but if there needs to be coordination of efforts, I think keeping
it in its current structure allows that to happen more easily than if we
didn't have all the DEs in a project together.

-- 
NP-Hardass


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Empty project: Desktop

[james]

On 08/06/2016 09:29 AM, NP-Hardass wrote:
> On 08/06/2016 04:31 AM, Pacho Ramos wrote:
>> Now https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Desktop
>>
>> Well, it seems that it's only "containing" other subprojects... but I
>> am unsure if we really need it. Anyway, he is now empty
>>
>>
>>
>
> I think it makes sense to keep desktop environments in a logical
> grouping.  There isn't a need for an overarching control structure right
> now, but if there needs to be coordination of efforts, I think keeping
> it in its current structure allows that to happen more easily than if we
> didn't have all the DEs in a project together.
>

+1
James

Re: [gentoo-dev] Empty project: Desktop

[Raymond Jennings]

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If an empty project has subprojects, I think that violates the definition
of empty.

On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 8:46 AM, james <garftd@verizon.net> wrote:

> On 08/06/2016 09:29 AM, NP-Hardass wrote:
>
>> On 08/06/2016 04:31 AM, Pacho Ramos wrote:
>>
>>> Now https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Desktop
>>>
>>> Well, it seems that it's only "containing" other subprojects... but I
>>> am unsure if we really need it. Anyway, he is now empty
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> I think it makes sense to keep desktop environments in a logical
>> grouping.  There isn't a need for an overarching control structure right
>> now, but if there needs to be coordination of efforts, I think keeping
>> it in its current structure allows that to happen more easily than if we
>> didn't have all the DEs in a project together.
>>
>>
> +1
> James
>
>

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Empty project: Desktop

[Pacho Ramos]

El sáb, 06-08-2016 a las 10:29 -0400, NP-Hardass escribió:
> On 08/06/2016 04:31 AM, Pacho Ramos wrote:
> > 
> > Now https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Desktop
> > 
> > Well, it seems that it's only "containing" other subprojects... but
> > I
> > am unsure if we really need it. Anyway, he is now empty
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> I think it makes sense to keep desktop environments in a logical
> grouping.  There isn't a need for an overarching control structure
> right
> now, but if there needs to be coordination of efforts, I think
> keeping
> it in its current structure allows that to happen more easily than if
> we
> didn't have all the DEs in a project together.
> 

Well, in the past (when herds existed) that was handled by freedesktop-
bugs project... but now it's different:
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Freedesktop

Anyway, the current desktop project won't either fulfill your
suggestion as, instead of being a general alias for all the projects
under it (like freedesktop-bugs herd was), it will simply end up with
nobody listening as nobody is a member of it :/

Re: [gentoo-dev] Empty project: Desktop

[Pacho Ramos]

El sáb, 06-08-2016 a las 09:07 -0700, Raymond Jennings escribió:
> If an empty project has subprojects, I think that violates the
> definition of empty.
> 

Empty in the terms of previously having a maintainer taking care of it
and now being "maintainer-needed"... I didn't think I would need to
explain it so deeply :|

Re: [gentoo-dev] Empty project: Desktop

[NP-Hardass]

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On 08/07/2016 06:34 AM, Pacho Ramos wrote:
> El sáb, 06-08-2016 a las 10:29 -0400, NP-Hardass escribió:
>> On 08/06/2016 04:31 AM, Pacho Ramos wrote:
>>>
>>> Now https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Desktop
>>>
>>> Well, it seems that it's only "containing" other subprojects... but
>>> I
>>> am unsure if we really need it. Anyway, he is now empty
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I think it makes sense to keep desktop environments in a logical
>> grouping.  There isn't a need for an overarching control structure
>> right
>> now, but if there needs to be coordination of efforts, I think
>> keeping
>> it in its current structure allows that to happen more easily than if
>> we
>> didn't have all the DEs in a project together.
>>
> 
> Well, in the past (when herds existed) that was handled by freedesktop-
> bugs project... but now it's different:
> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Freedesktop
> 
> Anyway, the current desktop project won't either fulfill your
> suggestion as, instead of being a general alias for all the projects
> under it (like freedesktop-bugs herd was), it will simply end up with
> nobody listening as nobody is a member of it :/
> 

Well, that's easily remedied with an alias for the project that contains
all the subprojects, no?

-- 
NP-Hardass


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Empty project: Desktop

[Pacho Ramos]

El dom, 07-08-2016 a las 09:07 -0400, NP-Hardass escribió:
> [...]
> Well, that's easily remedied with an alias for the project that
> contains
> all the subprojects, no?
> 

But I don't know if the projects will like to behave in that way...
because freedesktop-bugs was behaving exactly in that way and, during
the transition, it was agreed to stop using that and simply CC the
right projects when needed :/

From my point of view we should simply kill that "Desktop" project as
it serves no purpose and CC the relevant projects when needed, as I
don't recall many cases of the old freedesktop-bugs behaving in the way
you are suggesting (involving *all* desktop related projects in the bug
reports). On the other hand it was ending up with most people under the
subprojects simply ignoring the bug reports assigned to freedesktop-
bugs

[gentoo-dev] Re: Empty project: Desktop

[Michael Palimaka]

On 08/08/16 00:37, Pacho Ramos wrote:
> El dom, 07-08-2016 a las 09:07 -0400, NP-Hardass escribió:
>>  [...]
>> Well, that's easily remedied with an alias for the project that
>> contains
>> all the subprojects, no?
>>
> 
> But I don't know if the projects will like to behave in that way...
> because freedesktop-bugs was behaving exactly in that way and, during
> the transition, it was agreed to stop using that and simply CC the
> right projects when needed :/
> 
> From my point of view we should simply kill that "Desktop" project as
> it serves no purpose and CC the relevant projects when needed, as I
> don't recall many cases of the old freedesktop-bugs behaving in the way
> you are suggesting (involving *all* desktop related projects in the bug
> reports). On the other hand it was ending up with most people under the
> subprojects simply ignoring the bug reports assigned to freedesktop-
> bugs
> 
> 
I agree with removing it. Having an empty project doesn't serve any purpose.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Empty project: Desktop

[NP-Hardass]

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On 08/07/2016 10:37 AM, Pacho Ramos wrote:
> El dom, 07-08-2016 a las 09:07 -0400, NP-Hardass escribió:
>>  [...]
>> Well, that's easily remedied with an alias for the project that
>> contains
>> all the subprojects, no?
>>
> 
> But I don't know if the projects will like to behave in that way...
> because freedesktop-bugs was behaving exactly in that way and, during
> the transition, it was agreed to stop using that and simply CC the
> right projects when needed :/
> 
> From my point of view we should simply kill that "Desktop" project as
> it serves no purpose and CC the relevant projects when needed, as I
> don't recall many cases of the old freedesktop-bugs behaving in the way
> you are suggesting (involving *all* desktop related projects in the bug
> reports). On the other hand it was ending up with most people under the
> subprojects simply ignoring the bug reports assigned to freedesktop-
> bugs
> 

Well, if no other DEs want it, I say go for it.  Your description of the
old way was before my time working on MATE, I think.  Where does that
place the DEs going forward? Subprojects of The root node, or something
else?

-- 
NP-Hardass


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Empty project: Desktop

[Jason Zaman]

On Sun, Aug 07, 2016 at 04:37:23PM +0200, Pacho Ramos wrote:
> El dom, 07-08-2016 a las 09:07 -0400, NP-Hardass escribió:
> > [...]
> > Well, that's easily remedied with an alias for the project that
> > contains
> > all the subprojects, no?
> > 
> 
> But I don't know if the projects will like to behave in that way...
> because freedesktop-bugs was behaving exactly in that way and, during
> the transition, it was agreed to stop using that and simply CC the
> right projects when needed :/
> 
> From my point of view we should simply kill that "Desktop" project as
> it serves no purpose and CC the relevant projects when needed, as I
> don't recall many cases of the old freedesktop-bugs behaving in the way
> you are suggesting (involving *all* desktop related projects in the bug
> reports). On the other hand it was ending up with most people under the
> subprojects simply ignoring the bug reports assigned to freedesktop-
> bugs

Removing it is fine. I'm in the freedesktop and Xfce projects and I had
no idea this Desktop project even existed.
Pretty sure everyone would just ignore anything from/to it anyway.
Problems with eg KDE and Xfce are mostly not really related. And the few
things that are related are more core components that are under
freedesktop (polkit/consolekit etc). In which case, that component is
fixed without needing to bother every single other project or we just CC
them all if need be.

-- Jason

Re: [gentoo-dev] Empty project: Desktop

[Mart Raudsepp]

Ühel kenal päeval, T, 09.08.2016 kell 12:02, kirjutas Jason Zaman:
> On Sun, Aug 07, 2016 at 04:37:23PM +0200, Pacho Ramos wrote:
> > El dom, 07-08-2016 a las 09:07 -0400, NP-Hardass escribió:
> > >  [...]
> > > Well, that's easily remedied with an alias for the project that
> > > contains
> > > all the subprojects, no?
> > > 
> > 
> > But I don't know if the projects will like to behave in that way...
> > because freedesktop-bugs was behaving exactly in that way and,
> > during
> > the transition, it was agreed to stop using that and simply CC the
> > right projects when needed :/
> > 
> > From my point of view we should simply kill that "Desktop" project
> > as
> > it serves no purpose and CC the relevant projects when needed, as I
> > don't recall many cases of the old freedesktop-bugs behaving in the
> > way
> > you are suggesting (involving *all* desktop related projects in the
> > bug
> > reports). On the other hand it was ending up with most people under
> > the
> > subprojects simply ignoring the bug reports assigned to
> > freedesktop-
> > bugs
> 
> Removing it is fine. I'm in the freedesktop and Xfce projects and I
> had
> no idea this Desktop project even existed.
> Pretty sure everyone would just ignore anything from/to it anyway.
> Problems with eg KDE and Xfce are mostly not really related. And the
> few
> things that are related are more core components that are under
> freedesktop (polkit/consolekit etc). In which case, that component is
> fixed without needing to bother every single other project or we just
> CC
> them all if need be.


It should be kept for the purposes of coordination between different
specific desktop projects and the grouping of them it provides as
subprojects.
However that doesn't mean it should have any packages in the tree that
the desktop projects maintains itself personally, instead of one of its
subprojects.

One of my gentoo plans, when I have time, has been in reviving such
desktop-wide coordinations, possibly under the desktop project banner.
E.g my started USE=gui and toolkit threads when I had time.

Frankly, it would be weird to not have a project that broadly manages
all the desktop stuff.
We should manage this all better under a broad desktop project that
manages documentation, some policies, etc, but doesn't necessarily have
any packages that it maintains in tree.

If we need a new lead election per GLEP 39, I'm sure we have some
volunteers from the subprojects to throw their name in, that are
interested in having a good desktop-wide organization going on. Myself
included.


Mart

Re: [gentoo-dev] Empty project: Desktop

[Pacho Ramos]

El jue, 11-08-2016 a las 13:15 +0300, Mart Raudsepp escribió:
> [...]
> It should be kept for the purposes of coordination between different
> specific desktop projects and the grouping of them it provides as
> subprojects.
> However that doesn't mean it should have any packages in the tree
> that
> the desktop projects maintains itself personally, instead of one of
> its
> subprojects.
> 
> One of my gentoo plans, when I have time, has been in reviving such
> desktop-wide coordinations, possibly under the desktop project
> banner.
> E.g my started USE=gui and toolkit threads when I had time.
> 
> Frankly, it would be weird to not have a project that broadly manages
> all the desktop stuff.
> We should manage this all better under a broad desktop project that
> manages documentation, some policies, etc, but doesn't necessarily
> have
> any packages that it maintains in tree.
> 
> If we need a new lead election per GLEP 39, I'm sure we have some
> volunteers from the subprojects to throw their name in, that are
> interested in having a good desktop-wide organization going on.
> Myself
> included.
> 
> 
> Mart
> 

Apart of me not understanding why are we reviving this that was already
discussed when killing the old freedesktop-bugs herds in favor of the
correct project, I don't think it makes sense to keep this concrete
dead project for that potential and hypothetical changes that could
benefit from it in the far future. 

Maybe when something of that is finally going to be done, we need that
project and, in that case, you will be able of course to create your
Project following the standard policy that allows to do that to any
developers.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Empty project: Desktop

[Raymond Jennings]

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I think that a superproject can serve as a good rubber-band grouping
construct, personlaly

On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 11:19 AM, Pacho Ramos <pacho@gentoo.org> wrote:

> El jue, 11-08-2016 a las 13:15 +0300, Mart Raudsepp escribió:
> > [...]
> > It should be kept for the purposes of coordination between different
> > specific desktop projects and the grouping of them it provides as
> > subprojects.
> > However that doesn't mean it should have any packages in the tree
> > that
> > the desktop projects maintains itself personally, instead of one of
> > its
> > subprojects.
> >
> > One of my gentoo plans, when I have time, has been in reviving such
> > desktop-wide coordinations, possibly under the desktop project
> > banner.
> > E.g my started USE=gui and toolkit threads when I had time.
> >
> > Frankly, it would be weird to not have a project that broadly manages
> > all the desktop stuff.
> > We should manage this all better under a broad desktop project that
> > manages documentation, some policies, etc, but doesn't necessarily
> > have
> > any packages that it maintains in tree.
> >
> > If we need a new lead election per GLEP 39, I'm sure we have some
> > volunteers from the subprojects to throw their name in, that are
> > interested in having a good desktop-wide organization going on.
> > Myself
> > included.
> >
> >
> > Mart
> >
>
> Apart of me not understanding why are we reviving this that was already
> discussed when killing the old freedesktop-bugs herds in favor of the
> correct project, I don't think it makes sense to keep this concrete
> dead project for that potential and hypothetical changes that could
> benefit from it in the far future.
>
> Maybe when something of that is finally going to be done, we need that
> project and, in that case, you will be able of course to create your
> Project following the standard policy that allows to do that to any
> developers.
>
>
>

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