[gentoo-dev] Temporary DevRel actions for CoC violations

[gentoo-dev] Temporary DevRel actions for CoC violations

[Markos Chandras]

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Hash: SHA512

Hi,

It is unfortunate to observe constant bullying, insults and trolling
across our public media. Developers have been warned over and over that
such behaviour is not acceptable and they should try to behave
properly. However, people have ignored such warnings for a very long
time. This ends today.

The DevRel policy states that:
"If the issue is deemed critical, the developer in question may have
his or her access suspended while a vote takes place. In such
situations, the Developer Relations lead may act without a vote of the
remaining Developer Relations team; this power is granted by Council.
Except in critical situations where immediate action is required, such
disciplinary action is determined by members of the Developer Relations
project."[1]

For me, this problem is critical. Devrel is working on formalizing a new
policy, and we will announce news on this soon. In the meantime, to
prevent further escalations,  I will use my lead powers to request
immediate bans whenever I see one of you violate the CoC[2] and ignore
the previous warnings.

My fellow developers, it's time you finally realize that
you are part of a community and you must learn to behave
and respect each other even if you have different technical views.
We are all people sharing a common interest: Gentoo.

[1] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/policy.xml#doc_chap2
[2] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/coc.xml

- -- 
Regards,
Markos Chandras - Gentoo Linux Developer
http://dev.gentoo.org/~hwoarang
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Temporary DevRel actions for CoC violations

[Greg KH]

On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 06:35:49PM +0100, Markos Chandras wrote:
> For me, this problem is critical. Devrel is working on formalizing a new
> policy, and we will announce news on this soon. In the meantime, to
> prevent further escalations,  I will use my lead powers to request
> immediate bans whenever I see one of you violate the CoC[2] and ignore
> the previous warnings.

Thank you for stepping up and working to address this, it's much
appreciated.

greg k-h

RE: [gentoo-dev] Temporary DevRel actions for CoC violations

[gmt]

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on Wed, 19 Jun 2013, at 10:35, Markos Chandras thusly quipped:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA512
> 
> Hi,
> 
> It is unfortunate to observe constant bullying, insults and trolling
> across our public media. Developers have been warned over and over that
> such behaviour is not acceptable and they should try to behave
> properly. However, people have ignored such warnings for a very long
> time. This ends today.

Tough talk.  We'll see...

> The DevRel policy states that: "If the issue is deemed critical,
> the developer in question may have his or her access suspended
> while a vote takes place. In such situations, the Developer
> Relations lead may act without a vote of the remaining Developer
> Relations team; this power is granted by Council. Except in
> critical situations where immediate action is required, such
> disciplinary action is determined by members of the Developer
> Relations project."[1]
> 
> For me, this problem is critical. Devrel is working on formalizing a new
> policy, and we will announce news on this soon. In the meantime, to
> prevent further escalations,  I will use my lead powers to request
> immediate bans whenever I see one of you violate the CoC[2] and ignore
> the previous warnings.

Hmm... that's a serious responsibility you've assigned yourself.   I hope
you'll be a benevolent, impartial and reasonable interim judge, jury and
muzzler.

> My fellow developers, it's time you finally realize that
> you are part of a community and you must learn to behave
> and respect each other even if you have different technical views.
> We are all people sharing a common interest: Gentoo.
> 
> [1] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/policy.xml#doc_chap2
> [2] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/coc.xml

Sorry to hear you have such a low opinion of the socialization of Gentoo
developers.  Since I'm not one of them, I'll just put forth my 2c in on
this, without fear of "consequences."

Am I the only one who feels that trolling, abuse, and so forth, are largely
in the eye of the beholder, and that lively, impassioned, constructive
debate may seem to many readers like hyperbole and ad hominem attack?

As long as I can remember, candid and even ostensibly hostile debate and
argument have been a part of the Gentoo process (the same goes for a great
many open-source projects).  Thus far, although not without some frustration
and angst, Gentoo has weathered these storms, and somehow managed to make
sound decisions based on technical and practical merit, after all is said
and done.

Have you considered the possibility, Markos, that, although not pretty to
look at, such conflicts provide an important cathartic channel to relieve
certain "psychological pressures?"  In environments where everyone is
expected, on pain of discipline, to "be civil" all the time, my experience
is that folks start to build up resentments which eventually "explode"
forth, spectacularly, despite -- indeed, one might say, because of -- their
best efforts to conform to those expectations.

IIRC, Gentoo already has rules forbidding a laundry-list of antisocial
behaviors like racism, sexism, threats of violence, and so forth, and some
provisions in place to handle violators of that policy, does it not?

Further -- and please take this as more of a rhetorical flourish than a
genuine concern, but, I wonder, whose job it is to muzzle you, Markos, if
you, yourself get out of line, and will they dare perform it?

Has a clear consensus emerged that existing rules are not strong enough?
Or perhaps, are a vocal minority just butt-hurt about some particular
discussion that happened recently?  I'm asking fully in earnest, and I
sincerely hope -- and genuinely presume -- I don't have to worry that I'll
be muzzled for doing so, on the basis that I'm "trolling" or what-have-you.

Why should I even feel the need to say so?  Perhaps, that is my problem and
sheer paranoia, but surely, you can appreciate how such an announcement can
potentially have certain "chilling effects," and that the merits of strict
enforcement of such well-intended policies are not necessarily so clear as
they might seem on first glance.

Wishing you the best in your effort to make Gentoo a more civil and
friendly community,

-gmt


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RE: [gentoo-dev] Temporary DevRel actions for CoC violations

[Alexandre Rostovtsev]

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Gentoo developers have been resigning from the project because they got burned out by dealing with ad-hominems, insults, and flames. I do not see CoC enforcement as some sort of plot to enforce groupthink or silence debate, but as an attempt to fix the real problem of burnout and talent drain.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Temporary DevRel actions for CoC violations

[William Hubbs]

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On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 03:43:41PM -0400, Alexandre Rostovtsev wrote:
> Gentoo developers have been resigning from the project because they got burned out by dealing with ad-hominems, insults, and flames. I do not see CoC enforcement as some sort of plot to enforce groupthink or silence debate, but as an attempt to fix the real problem of burnout and talent drain.

Agreed. This has nothing to do with chilling good technical debate.
People are leaving the project because they are getting tired of the
flaming, personal attacks, etc, and I am fully behind devrel doing
something about that. imo it should have been done a long time ago.

William


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Temporary DevRel actions for CoC violations

[Rich Freeman]

On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 3:15 PM,  <gmt@malth.us> wrote:
> Am I the only one who feels that trolling, abuse, and so forth, are largely
> in the eye of the beholder, and that lively, impassioned, constructive
> debate may seem to many readers like hyperbole and ad hominem attack?

Hence my comment that this is a bit of a sledgehammer approach.  I
really wouldn't want to see "current head of devrel becomes judge,
jury, and executioner" as a long-term strategy.  However, the status
quo is not acceptable either.

He did say he was working on long-term proposals, and I think we ought
to at least let him offer his suggestions before we jump down his
throat.  If things get out of hand as a community I'm sure we'll deal
with it, but the pendulum is far to the opposite side right now.

The fact is that we already trust every Gentoo dev with the equivalent
of root on our systems, so I think we can give Markos the benefit of
the doubt when he aims to reform Devrel.

Rich

Re: [gentoo-dev] Temporary DevRel actions for CoC violations

[Luca Barbato]

On 06/19/2013 09:15 PM, gmt@malth.us wrote:
> Sorry to hear you have such a low opinion of the socialization of Gentoo
> developers.  Since I'm not one of them, I'll just put forth my 2c in on
> this, without fear of "consequences."

Yet even users not behaving will get a friendly warning and might be
restricted in their access to our media.

> Am I the only one who feels that trolling, abuse, and so forth, are largely
> in the eye of the beholder, and that lively, impassioned, constructive
> debate may seem to many readers like hyperbole and ad hominem attack?

So better to try to think twice and write when you are sure you are as
clear as possible =)

> As long as I can remember, candid and even ostensibly hostile debate and
> argument have been a part of the Gentoo process (the same goes for a great
> many open-source projects).  Thus far, although not without some frustration
> and angst, Gentoo has weathered these storms, and somehow managed to make
> sound decisions based on technical and practical merit, after all is said
> and done.

Sure, but since we are getting more and more people burnt by the process
and nothing is gained or lost between:

"You suck and this idea is not going to fly at all"

and

"I'm sure it will not work"

> Have you considered the possibility, Markos, that, although not pretty to
> look at, such conflicts provide an important cathartic channel to relieve
> certain "psychological pressures?"  In environments where everyone is
> expected, on pain of discipline, to "be civil" all the time, my experience
> is that folks start to build up resentments which eventually "explode"
> forth, spectacularly, despite -- indeed, one might say, because of -- their
> best efforts to conform to those expectations.

You can be direct and yet not infringe the CoC.

> IIRC, Gentoo already has rules forbidding a laundry-list of antisocial
> behaviors like racism, sexism, threats of violence, and so forth, and some
> provisions in place to handle violators of that policy, does it not?

Yes and now is being enforced fully.

> Further -- and please take this as more of a rhetorical flourish than a
> genuine concern, but, I wonder, whose job it is to muzzle you, Markos, if
> you, yourself get out of line, and will they dare perform it?

The rest of devrel still does have full power, the quick action of the
devrel leader is just a in between once we got to agree on the
quick-action protocol. We have a lengthy procedure for major
infringement and it doesn't work for small infringements.

> Has a clear consensus emerged that existing rules are not strong enough?

Is not a matter of rules, but procedures to enforce the rules.

> Or perhaps, are a vocal minority just butt-hurt about some particular
> discussion that happened recently?  I'm asking fully in earnest, and I
> sincerely hope -- and genuinely presume -- I don't have to worry that I'll
> be muzzled for doing so, on the basis that I'm "trolling" or what-have-you.

No minorities had been considered, vocal or silent.

> Why should I even feel the need to say so?  Perhaps, that is my problem and
> sheer paranoia, but surely, you can appreciate how such an announcement can
> potentially have certain "chilling effects," and that the merits of strict
> enforcement of such well-intended policies are not necessarily so clear as
> they might seem on first glance.

Having a gentler tone would just keep the technical field less prone to
be encrusted with pointless emotional hindrances. Everybody likes to
side between Good and Evil, here we should just have Working and Broken.

lu

PS: I'd advise to try to tone down another notch your vocabulary if you
are afraid of getting some penalty for foul language.

Re: [gentoo-dev] Temporary DevRel actions for CoC violations

[Diego Elio Pettenò]

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Does this mean the QA lead finally gets to suspend people who are patently
not suited for developing a stable distribution without asking devrel?
Because last time we got into the same judge, jury, and executioner
argument, which I guess was just sent for the gallows (pun intended).

Mind, it's not like I disagree with at least one of the actions that you
took recently, but given your surge approach I would like to point out that
is not your task judging code quality, and yes that does make me
uncomfortable, that you want to pick up the full power at once, and not
collaborate with whom should have been involved in the process.


Diego Elio Pettenò — Flameeyes
flameeyes@flameeyes.eu — http://blog.flameeyes.eu/


On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 6:35 PM, Markos Chandras <hwoarang@gentoo.org>wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA512
>
> Hi,
>
> It is unfortunate to observe constant bullying, insults and trolling
> across our public media. Developers have been warned over and over that
> such behaviour is not acceptable and they should try to behave
> properly. However, people have ignored such warnings for a very long
> time. This ends today.
>
> The DevRel policy states that:
> "If the issue is deemed critical, the developer in question may have
> his or her access suspended while a vote takes place. In such
> situations, the Developer Relations lead may act without a vote of the
> remaining Developer Relations team; this power is granted by Council.
> Except in critical situations where immediate action is required, such
> disciplinary action is determined by members of the Developer Relations
> project."[1]
>
> For me, this problem is critical. Devrel is working on formalizing a new
> policy, and we will announce news on this soon. In the meantime, to
> prevent further escalations,  I will use my lead powers to request
> immediate bans whenever I see one of you violate the CoC[2] and ignore
> the previous warnings.
>
> My fellow developers, it's time you finally realize that
> you are part of a community and you must learn to behave
> and respect each other even if you have different technical views.
> We are all people sharing a common interest: Gentoo.
>
> [1] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/policy.xml#doc_chap2
> [2] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/coc.xml
>
> - --
> Regards,
> Markos Chandras - Gentoo Linux Developer
> http://dev.gentoo.org/~hwoarang
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Temporary DevRel actions for CoC violations

[Luca Barbato]

On 06/20/2013 05:53 AM, Diego Elio Pettenò wrote:
> Does this mean the QA lead finally gets to suspend people who are
> patently not suited for developing a stable distribution without
> asking devrel? Because last time we got into the same judge, jury,
> and executioner argument, which I guess was just sent for the gallows
> (pun intended).

I'm not against that, but I prefer setting some fast track involving at
most 3 people and some procedure also for it.

E.g. : you can ask for 6h suspension on direct request and by contacting
a single devrel person to get an 1week suspension within 2 days.

> Mind, it's not like I disagree with at least one of the actions that
> you took recently, but given your surge approach I would like to
> point out that is not your task judging code quality, and yes that
> does make me uncomfortable, that you want to pick up the full power
> at once, and not collaborate with whom should have been involved in
> the process.

As said, this whole thing is just an interim solution till fast-path
procedures get deployed.

lu

Re: [gentoo-dev] Temporary DevRel actions for CoC violations

[Markos Chandras]

On 20 June 2013 04:53, Diego Elio Pettenò <flameeyes@flameeyes.eu> wrote:
> Does this mean the QA lead finally gets to suspend people who are patently
> not suited for developing a stable distribution without asking devrel?
> Because last time we got into the same judge, jury, and executioner
> argument, which I guess was just sent for the gallows (pun intended).
>
> Mind, it's not like I disagree with at least one of the actions that you
> took recently, but given your surge approach I would like to point out that
> is not your task judging code quality, and yes that does make me
> uncomfortable, that you want to pick up the full power at once, and not
> collaborate with whom should have been involved in the process.
>
>
> Diego Elio Pettenò — Flameeyes
> flameeyes@flameeyes.eu — http://blog.flameeyes.eu/
>
>

There is a high chance I drive this thread off-topic but:
I believe the QA lead always had the power to suspend people if they
break the tree but like I explained to my e-mail this is a temporary
solution so it's not something we want in the long-term. Such actions
need to be discussed internally. It's true that is not our task to
judge code. But my understanding was that QA is not willing to pick up
this task. We've seen numerous examples of bad commits or CCs of
qa@g.o in bugs with several technical disagreements and not a single
QA warning "you are doing it wrong". I could easily be wrong though as
I can't track everything. My opinion is that you need to bring more
people in QA so you can delegate the "technical" tasks to them.

--
Regards,
Markos Chandras - Gentoo Linux Developer
http://dev.gentoo.org/~hwoarang

Re: [gentoo-dev] Temporary DevRel actions for CoC violations

[Fabio Erculiani]

The final outcome I would love to see is that everybody eventually
graduates from kindergarten :-)
And perhaps introduce a "culture-fit" score in the recruiting,
mentoring process.

-- 
Fabio Erculiani

Re: [gentoo-dev] Temporary DevRel actions for CoC violations

[Matthew Thode]

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On 06/20/2013 03:39 AM, Fabio Erculiani wrote:
> The final outcome I would love to see is that everybody eventually
> graduates from kindergarten :-)
> And perhaps introduce a "culture-fit" score in the recruiting,
> mentoring process.
> 
As an employee that works for a company that requires a culture fit
(very important to us).  This helps a ton.

-- 
-- Matthew Thode (prometheanfire)


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Temporary DevRel actions for CoC violations

[Petteri Räty]

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On 20.6.2013 14.01, Matthew Thode wrote:
> On 06/20/2013 03:39 AM, Fabio Erculiani wrote:
>> The final outcome I would love to see is that everybody eventually
>> graduates from kindergarten :-)
>> And perhaps introduce a "culture-fit" score in the recruiting,
>> mentoring process.
>>
> As an employee that works for a company that requires a culture fit
> (very important to us).  This helps a ton.
> 

Sounds good in theory but how do you calculate that score? In companies
there's much more interactions that allow to accumulate information for
such things.

Regards,
Petteri


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Temporary DevRel actions for CoC violations

[Matthew Thode]

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On 06/20/2013 07:49 AM, Petteri Räty wrote:
> On 20.6.2013 14.01, Matthew Thode wrote:
>> On 06/20/2013 03:39 AM, Fabio Erculiani wrote:
>>> The final outcome I would love to see is that everybody eventually
>>> graduates from kindergarten :-)
>>> And perhaps introduce a "culture-fit" score in the recruiting,
>>> mentoring process.
>>>
>> As an employee that works for a company that requires a culture fit
>> (very important to us).  This helps a ton.
>>
> 
> Sounds good in theory but how do you calculate that score? In companies
> there's much more interactions that allow to accumulate information for
> such things.
> 
> Regards,
> Petteri
> 
We do it during the interview process.  I kinda think the best analog we
can do is to watch both before and during the probation period to see
how well they fit.

-- 
-- Matthew Thode (prometheanfire)


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Temporary DevRel actions for CoC violations

[hasufell]

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Hash: SHA1

On 06/20/2013 03:07 PM, Matthew Thode wrote:
> On 06/20/2013 07:49 AM, Petteri Räty wrote:
>> On 20.6.2013 14.01, Matthew Thode wrote:
>>> On 06/20/2013 03:39 AM, Fabio Erculiani wrote:
>>>> The final outcome I would love to see is that everybody
>>>> eventually graduates from kindergarten :-) And perhaps
>>>> introduce a "culture-fit" score in the recruiting, mentoring
>>>> process.
>>>> 
>>> As an employee that works for a company that requires a culture
>>> fit (very important to us).  This helps a ton.
>>> 
>> 
>> Sounds good in theory but how do you calculate that score? In
>> companies there's much more interactions that allow to accumulate
>> information for such things.
>> 
>> Regards, Petteri
>> 
> We do it during the interview process.  I kinda think the best
> analog we can do is to watch both before and during the probation
> period to see how well they fit.
> 

Maybe that period should be extended. Longer period -> more carful
thinking of your own actions -> becomes a habit.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Temporary DevRel actions for CoC violations

[Matthew Thode]

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On 06/20/2013 08:11 AM, hasufell wrote:
> On 06/20/2013 03:07 PM, Matthew Thode wrote:
>> On 06/20/2013 07:49 AM, Petteri Räty wrote:
>>> On 20.6.2013 14.01, Matthew Thode wrote:
>>>> On 06/20/2013 03:39 AM, Fabio Erculiani wrote:
>>>>> The final outcome I would love to see is that everybody
>>>>> eventually graduates from kindergarten :-) And perhaps
>>>>> introduce a "culture-fit" score in the recruiting, mentoring
>>>>> process.
>>>>>
>>>> As an employee that works for a company that requires a culture
>>>> fit (very important to us).  This helps a ton.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Sounds good in theory but how do you calculate that score? In
>>> companies there's much more interactions that allow to accumulate
>>> information for such things.
>>>
>>> Regards, Petteri
>>>
>> We do it during the interview process.  I kinda think the best
>> analog we can do is to watch both before and during the probation
>> period to see how well they fit.
> 
> 
> Maybe that period should be extended. Longer period -> more carful
> thinking of your own actions -> becomes a habit.
> 
That might be a good idea.  I just wish that we could do some sort of
culture fit before they get devship (should be a prerequisite).

-- 
-- Matthew Thode (prometheanfire)


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Temporary DevRel actions for CoC violations

[Petteri Räty]

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On 20.6.2013 16.07, Matthew Thode wrote:
> On 06/20/2013 07:49 AM, Petteri Räty wrote:
>> On 20.6.2013 14.01, Matthew Thode wrote:
>>> On 06/20/2013 03:39 AM, Fabio Erculiani wrote:
>>>> The final outcome I would love to see is that everybody eventually
>>>> graduates from kindergarten :-)
>>>> And perhaps introduce a "culture-fit" score in the recruiting,
>>>> mentoring process.
>>>>
>>> As an employee that works for a company that requires a culture fit
>>> (very important to us).  This helps a ton.
>>>
>>
>> Sounds good in theory but how do you calculate that score? In companies
>> there's much more interactions that allow to accumulate information for
>> such things.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Petteri
>>
> We do it during the interview process.  I kinda think the best analog we
> can do is to watch both before and during the probation period to see
> how well they fit.
> 

That's already part of the process. What we can improve is that I don't
remember mentors reporting back on problems during the probation period.
Maybe automate that in some way so the mentors get emails and should
respond.

Petteri


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Temporary DevRel actions for CoC violations

[Michael Weber]

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[talking about recruiting]

Please don't focus on new arrivals, we should all be under investigation.

I don't know the distribution of dev-ship-duration, but (hopefully)
it's long enough to justify a look at the stock.

And it's not fair to pick on the candidates by putting them under
close watch (mentor ship, probation already in place) and let the
established ones walk away.

- -- 
Michael Weber
Gentoo Developer
web: https://xmw.de/
mailto: Michael Weber <xmw@gentoo.org>
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Temporary DevRel actions for CoC violations

[Matthew Thode]

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On 06/20/2013 08:32 AM, Michael Weber wrote:
> [talking about recruiting]
> 
> Please don't focus on new arrivals, we should all be under investigation.
> 
> I don't know the distribution of dev-ship-duration, but (hopefully)
> it's long enough to justify a look at the stock.
> 
> And it's not fair to pick on the candidates by putting them under
> close watch (mentor ship, probation already in place) and let the
> established ones walk away.
> 
> 

True, I'm just saying that we can help prevent this from happening if we
screened our candidates a little better.  We should keep going with
policing our existing devs as well of course.

-- 
-- Matthew Thode (prometheanfire)


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Temporary DevRel actions for CoC violations

[Rich Freeman]

On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 9:32 AM, Michael Weber <xmw@gentoo.org> wrote:
>
> And it's not fair to pick on the candidates by putting them under
> close watch (mentor ship, probation already in place) and let the
> established ones walk away.

Tend to agree, and I don't think it is as productive either.  Set
policies and enforce them, and the culture will gradually align to
where we want it to go.  Right now our culture probably turns away
people who would be a good "cultural fit" because the reality is that
they're really not a good fit because our current culture is lousy.
If we fixed our culture, then people who want to flame away are likely
to not bother applying because they see others like them being hounded
by devrel.

Policy enforcement isn't just corrective - it is preventative.  When
you set examples, others follow them beyond just the immediate target.
 Over time, properly-applied discipline is something that puts itself
out of business.

Rich

Re: [gentoo-dev] Temporary DevRel actions for CoC violations

[Rick "Zero_Chaos" Farina]

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On 06/20/2013 04:39 AM, Fabio Erculiani wrote:
> The final outcome I would love to see is that everybody eventually
> graduates from kindergarten :-)
> And perhaps introduce a "culture-fit" score in the recruiting,
> mentoring process.
> 

Fabio,

How about instead of quitting you run for student^H^H^H^H^H Gentoo
council?  I know why I'm running, and it's not because I think the
status quo is acceptable.

I nominate lxnay for council, on the basis that he must officially
withdraw his retirement request first. Now accept so I can vote for you.

- -Zero
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Temporary DevRel actions for CoC violations

[Fabio Erculiani]

Thanks for the offer, I appreciate it, but I have to decline this time.

-- 
Fabio Erculiani

Re: [gentoo-dev] Temporary DevRel actions for CoC violations

[Jeroen Roovers]

On Thu, 20 Jun 2013 10:39:54 +0200
Fabio Erculiani <lxnay@gentoo.org> wrote:

> The final outcome I would love to see is that everybody eventually
> graduates from kindergarten :-)
> And perhaps introduce a "culture-fit" score in the recruiting,
> mentoring process.

Maybe we should require everyone to be able to recite
</usr/share/fortune/gentoo-dev>[1]. It's a start, right?


     jer


[1] USE=offensive emerge games-misc/fortune-mod-gentoo-dev but let's
    not put this particularly useful hint in the quizzes. ;-)

Re: [gentoo-dev] Temporary DevRel actions for CoC violations

[Roy Bamford]

On 06/19/13 18:35:49, Markos Chandras wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> It is unfortunate to observe constant bullying, insults and trolling
> across our public media. Developers have been warned over and over
> that
> such behaviour is not acceptable and they should try to behave
> properly. However, people have ignored such warnings for a very long
> time. This ends today.
> 
[snip]
> 
> --
> Regards,
> Markos Chandras - Gentoo Linux Developer
> http://dev.gentoo.org/~hwoarang
> 

This has my support.  

I would like to see council voice their complete support publically 
too, as thats one of the reasons proctors failed.

-- 
Regards,

Roy Bamford
(Neddyseagoon) an member of
gentoo-ops
forum-mods
trustees

[gentoo-dev] Re: Temporary DevRel actions for CoC violations

[Duncan]

Roy Bamford posted on Thu, 20 Jun 2013 09:21:07 +0100 as excerpted:

> On 06/19/13 18:35:49, Markos Chandras wrote:
>> 
>> It is unfortunate to observe constant bullying, insults and trolling
>> across our public media. Developers have been warned over and over that
>> such behaviour is not acceptable and they should try to behave
>> properly. However, people have ignored such warnings for a very long
>> time. This ends today.
>> 
> This has my support.
> 
> I would like to see council voice their complete support publically too,
> as thats one of the reasons proctors failed.

++

Also, I know there's sensitivity in providing real-case examples and 
contrived examples might not work too well, but...

If possible, it'd be useful to have (say) 2-3 good examples of triggers.

[TL;DR folks stop there.]

At least once an action is finalized (whatever way) by full devrel or 
council, arguably an action-triggering public statement in some media 
deserves an equally public apology (if the original offender finds it 
appropriate) or rebuttal (if such rebuttal on behalf of gentoo is 
necessary due to lack of apology) by the same media.

IIRC I've been called on to issue an apology once.  I don't remember the 
details, but I do remember that I hadn't intended it to sound the way it 
did and I unconditionally apologized once someone pointed out how it read 
from a perspective other than my own.

I've also called for a public apology a (small) handful of times, only 
once recently, from a user-poster not a dev, here.  One other user 
replied to that backing me up but indicating that he thought a few devs 
might need such a call from time to time as well, while I've not seen 
anything besides that one post that I considered "beyond the pale" far 
enough to call for an apology on in /quite/ some time now, so evidently 
he's a bit more sensitive than I am at this point.

Which means either that the potentially triggering instances aren't 
happening on this list, or that my sensitivity needs reset.  I'm worried 
about the latter, and an example or two (anyone who believes they might 
have been out of line care to post a link/apology?) might help me with 
that reset, or clarify that the triggers haven't been happening here, but 
in IRC or on the blogs or whatever.  Either would be useful.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman